| 00:12 | <nsITobin> | I see. |
| 00:33 | <nsITobin> | out of the fifteen people or so who has read what I said.. no one has even a response? |
| 00:36 | <Colin Alworth> | nsITobin: I assume your familiar with how we got where we are? I’ve been at this for … a while, and lived through the xhtml days - it was a great idea, but there are good reasons it didn’t pan out and we ended up where we are (and they aren’t all technical, or even most). I’d be very skeptical of another standard that replaces the existing one without a little more than that blurb to base it on |
| 00:38 | <nsITobin> | The reason is the W3C slow walking everything plus modular xhtml basically resulted in an endrun and you guys deeming yourselfs a standards body and via market position have strong armed the W3C into acceding to your authority. Great.. don't care anymore. I wanna go forward but I also want an equally capable XML future along side. |
| 00:38 | <nsITobin> | I am leaving the upset behind me these days. |
| 00:40 | <nsITobin> | Speculation in the Mozilla Outskirts is the W3C specifically slowwalked Mozilla's and early google standards mainly because of Microsoft.. Which is a huge problem now considering issues with Google control over the base chromium and Microsoft's latest stuff they have added to Edge which AI, aside, seems exceedingly familar. |
| 00:40 | <nsITobin> | also Opera was there too ;) |
| 00:42 | <nsITobin> | On the order of a term.. Every WhatWG member should be familiar with .. no matter if they lived it or not. Shell Update. |
| 00:43 | <nsITobin> | Both the W3C and WhatWG now conduct official operations on a Microsoft service where Microsoft are the gatekeepers to whom may contribute or participate. This is ALSO a problem. |
| 00:44 | <nsITobin> | I am just no longer interested in debating the decisions made in the late 2000s.. It's 2025 now. |
| 00:45 | <nsITobin> | Every browser has either stellar XML parsing or decent enough XML parsing and also JS access to dom interfaces to deal with XML there too. Why is this not being taken more advantage of especially in situations where no person writes a single iota of html. |
| 00:46 | <nsITobin> | Computers that generate code can generate strict code just as easily.. see the over-reliance of javascript. |
| 00:51 | <nsITobin> | Eventually I am gonna pursue all this anyway and I have a fully functional XUL platform with first party support for an XML web so I can basically create my own microcosm if I so desired and this time I would be calling the shots.. but how does that help anyone else.. HTML5 has real world problems and has had since its inception. We're past the 10 year mark where WhatWG is allowed to pass uncommented by "the little people" which simply isn't gonna cut it or be great for HTML in the end. |
| 00:55 | <nsITobin> | also partial support for WebComponents. |
| 00:56 | <nsITobin> | Though if I go the create my own older style web with xhtml I would opt for a version pre-webcomponents cause I have.. XBL. |
| 00:56 | <nsITobin> | But again who does that help outside my self and a few freaks. |
| 00:57 | <nsITobin> | Excluding XML now that WhatWG has accomplished so much with str8 living standard html seems kinda silly especially when XML will never die. It's like IRC that way. It should be made as useful as it once was along side your HTML. |
| 01:00 | <nsITobin> | Or I can merely document the UXP implementation, deem my self a standards body and have stuff that outshines even my autistically compromised social skills.. May go no where but again the WhatWG could have easily gone no where as well. |
| 01:05 | <nsITobin> | I already have a bit of an idea of how to basically use an almost unmodified mozilla XBL file as an input to some javascript to build a custom element based on it. The real issue is I can never get FULL mozilla capability as HTMLElements are on the same level they don't derive from a generic least none I can access. Not unless I literally reimpl every element or have a mess. If all HTMLElements derived from a base element then customelements could be done EXACTLY like XBL. |
| 01:12 | <nsITobin> | It is not fun anymore being someone who writes markup by hand. Because at this point, its more javascript and css than markup.. and css is trying to become its own scripting language on top of it. |
| 01:12 | <Colin Alworth> | So, for the record, I don’t belong to any standards group etc, and never have, but am an end user, tools/app developer, so I think some of that is either misdirected, or just talking past me (you asked for a response… I had some free time to offer thoughts). There’s a lot to follow through on and unpack here, and I think that while the idea makes sense it may not get to the heart of the problems that, from my perspective, are not going to be solved by better standards, but better incentives (and since nearly* every browser is chromium… that’s a tough sell). I think making this case as a proper writeup would serve the ideas better, rather than a wall of text in a channel with a different purpose? |
| 01:13 | <nsITobin> | The WhatWG is DIRECTLY responsible for the near monoculture we have now.. I am TRYING to .. ignore that. |
| 01:13 | <nsITobin> | I warned about it in 2017 |
| 01:13 | <nsITobin> | and 2019 |
| 01:13 | <nsITobin> | and then went a bit nuts for a while. I'm better now. |
| 01:16 | <nsITobin> | If I wanted to just express how evil the whatwg has been regardless of intent I'd do that get banned and get back to XUL.. Problem is.. that didn't work last time. |
| 01:16 | <nsITobin> | I wanna see stuff happen for the FUTURE and not just stuff copyright Microsoft or Google while they are still allowed. |
| 01:22 | <nsITobin> | Maybe some extra context. I am Matt A. Tobin aka the New Tobin Paradigm, formerly the number 2 asshole of the Pale Moon Project and creator of the Unified XUL Platform (originally an ESR52 fork with an originally Firefox 24 UI as far as Pale Moon is concerned the Take 2 attempt, the one that worked). I also created the only known independently written multi-application Mozilla Add-ons infrastructure and services site to exist. Until I write a new one. I am an on-again-off-again browser developer and implementor. And will launch a XUL browser again. It is only..a..matter..of..time. |
| 01:25 | <nsITobin> | As I have decided to make use of the xul platform I sold most of my soul for. |
| 01:27 | <nsITobin> | With modern browsers and whatwg's modern features there should be more than enough stuff to add some extra sugar to to even have a messure of XUL capability within a chromium browser over the web.. it is JUST MISSING that easy to use-ness XUL was known for. |
| 01:32 | <nsITobin> | I put a website up on my ISP when I was a kid in the 90s using HotDog Pro .. I moved to FrontPage and then Dreamweaver.. Then I simply started doing it by hand and my stuff exploded it was great.. Then I learned XHTML and damn I love XHTML and XML technologies.. Then HTML5 came with its video and audio tags and 800 different copies of div all slightly different and digital rights management. |
| 01:32 | <nsITobin> | Then I joined a browser project |
| 01:35 | <nsITobin> | I also enjoyed flash and shockwave and other plugins.. |
| 01:35 | <nsITobin> | as a browser developer it makes a lot of sense to have special content handlers as external things.. but plugins are bad for android. |
| 01:36 | <nsITobin> | also adobe and java did not protect or educate the users enough on the risks and proper usage of plugins |
| 01:36 | <nsITobin> | just driveby installed |
| 01:38 | <nsITobin> | Basically HTML5 made HTML suck for me |
| 01:38 | <nsITobin> | and its over fifteen years past that I relate that and ask for solutions and alternatives. |
| 01:39 | <nsITobin> | Or get banned in the process and do what I want knowing I tried. |
| 01:46 | <nsITobin> | When the world may end in five years .. what's a ban in comparison to trying to do or say the right thing.. not necessarily the appropriate thing but the right thing. |
| 01:49 | <nsITobin> | People banned from github cannot interact with the whatwg even if their ban had nothing to do with anything whatwg related.. Microsoft banned me for participating in an anti-wayland gist because of that and wanting to organize an xorg fork to be ready if wayland craps out I was banned.. on github globally.. my stuff wiped out.. my infra crippled.. my history purged. |
| 01:50 | <nsITobin> | Why is the WhatWG gatekept by Microsoft? |
| 01:51 | <nsITobin> | Why are WhatWG specs ALWAYS rewritten biasing a Google impl just because it exists despite other impls in other browsers. Why is there a rule of two when almost everyone is chromium based. Why does being chrome give you a majority to dogpile specs onto others like Mozilla or Apple |
| 01:52 | <nsITobin> | and why is the WhatWG not inclusive of any browser VENDOR in that case to have equal rights if the engine can be almost if not exactly identical for several controlling memebrs |
| 01:53 | <nsITobin> | any firefox fork should be treated the same as any controlling chromium fork or rebuild. |
| 01:53 | <nsITobin> | Thus I should be equal to Mozilla or Google the moment I release a browser. |
| 01:54 | <nsITobin> | if it is by ENGINE then everyone using chromium should get but one vote and i still should be equal to mozilla because UXP's gecko fork is so unlike gecko then and especially now its defacto a different engine. |
| 01:55 | <nsITobin> | but no. That isn't how it works. It's corperations using employee proxies to not be beholden to anyone not even the W3C. A cartel is not a superior option to the wild west my WhatWG friends. |
| 01:55 | <nsITobin> | But I would PREFER to talk about the future you see. |
| 01:55 | <nsITobin> | Cause I can do.. THAT endlessly. |
| 01:55 | <nsITobin> | the not future stuff i mean |
| 02:03 | <nsITobin> | Can the designated official body for HTML and many web technologies not use those technologies to run their organization? |
| 02:05 | <nsITobin> | is a 15 dollar a month server too much to ask for to run a small gitforge where people can contribute in standards without being blocked by Microsoft. Aren't there enough barriers to WhatWG pre-Microsoft owning github? |
| 02:07 | <nsITobin> | Why not Gitlab.. you don't have to run it either and it isn't controlled by a major controlling stakeholder in this standards body |
| 02:09 | <nsITobin> | I am likely FAR too opinionated on the standards them selves to be of much use but things the WhatWG could be doing to ensure it becomes something more than a damned cartel of the same players for the past 25 years + google who just didn't like agreeing on something AND sticking to it over a duration I might have some suggestions. |
| 02:10 | <nsITobin> | Scoped Styles for example.. it didn't REALLY impact the webcomponents standards at all and everyone EXCEPT chromium ALREADY supported it but now no one supports it except UXP and maybe SeaMonkey. |
| 02:12 | <nsITobin> | and it sure made an attractive addition for someone not ready or not interested in shadowdom and the rest of the webcomponents stuff.. Which is still conceptually based on classical Mozilla technologies btw. Don't fool yourself. Especially customelements. Mozilla's only REAL hard push at standing firm.. it would have been impressive to me if it didn't kill XBL in the process. |
| 02:13 | <nsITobin> | it would have been perfect if it had just that little extra bit to make it as good to use as XBL was. |
| 02:17 | <nsITobin> | If the WhatWG and related groups want the actual respect the W3C automatically gets despite them being an ineffectual mess ever since WhatWG was formed.. the WhatWG should do everything in its power to bolster the ranks of browser vendors and engines and stop letting special interests redefine everything on a monthly basis. A common open platform also means one open to change from without. Else it is just corporate collusion and conceptual price fixing. |
| 02:18 | <nsITobin> | the cost being in implementation and refactoring of course since its all technically free. |
| 02:20 | <nsITobin> | and being judged and disparaged for a decade personally and collectively for not having the resources to waste millions of dollars on something half a dozen people can do just takes a while.. but I don't have that now even. |
| 02:22 | <nsITobin> | and my peers have in the past 3 years devolved from Tech Supremacists to Final MAGA when it is obvious to anyone with a chunk of brain left that it stopped being anything but a new american nazi party after Jan 6th.. THAT is who has the shit I slaved over for a decade because the of the WhatWG and its impacts on the world wide web. |
| 02:23 | <nsITobin> | So yeah past.. never ends.. until the future arrives and I would PREFER a future that potentially has SOMETHING for someone like my self as I am now. |
| 02:25 | <nsITobin> | I can go play in my unsandboxed xul sandbox or i can TRY and make it known what exactly its like at my level. |
| 02:25 | <nsITobin> | and maybe do some good |
| 02:31 | <nsITobin> | The monoculture needs to end and the WhatWG needs to be modernized beyond corporate interests. Because unless that happens I may as well fork HTTP the protocol by writing up its impl in UXP and also XHTML 1.0 and update it for HTML5 stuff but in the way XHTML 1.0 was not later versions.. put it up on a website.. in standard html and have software that can make use of it like a browser and an nginx fork because I'll be damned if I will use http/3 a google protocol any time soon. |
| 02:33 | <nsITobin> | because you have a protocol, a browser, and a server and you HAVE a chunk of the Internet of Protocols to your own self. |
| 02:34 | <nsITobin> | but I do forget WhatWG also is responsible for superclassing protocols with web tech.. So my Internet of Protocols and the World Wide Web aren't on the agenda let alone XML. |
| 02:34 | <nsITobin> | And that is my general beef. |
| 02:35 | <nsITobin> | We have more things but in totality.. we are at BEST no better than before.. and at worst it is a corruption of the evolution of the internet and the world wide web. |
| 02:37 | <nsITobin> | So what can be done about it? |
| 02:41 | <nsITobin> | The Modern Web is harming The Internet as a whole. |
| 02:42 | <nsITobin> | until this is understood i doubt anything I have or will say will matter. |
| 02:45 | <nsITobin> | I also expect the adoption of the new Google Web Protocol over UDP will be a shedding point for legacy compatibility and there goes http older than 3 and likely XML as a rendered thing all together and things will get a few more abstractions and superclassings and be as opaque and virtually unusable outside specialized software that it will be indistinguishable in practicality from any closed proprietary series of technologies delivered over the internet. |
| 02:45 | <nsITobin> | and HTML 4 will go too |
| 02:47 | <nsITobin> | and I have to ask in the face of this almost certain possibility if trends remain unaltered based on the past decade or so when I have been directly affected as a browser and xul platform developer |
| 02:48 | <nsITobin> | Is it worth it? |
| 02:48 | <nsITobin> | because i look at it.. and it could all be done better as a standalone application in xul or better yet actually securing remotexul |
| 02:49 | <nsITobin> | if Firefox's UI is now XHTML and HTML based and they have seperation of chrome vs content privs plus sandboxing.. Remote XUL being insecure was never a real blocker.. it could have been secured. |
| 02:50 | <nsITobin> | that little nugget puts the WhatWG's positions into question from the very outset. |
| 02:50 | <nsITobin> | as well as Mozilla's decision making at the time. |
| 02:50 | <nsITobin> | and brings into question what REALLY happened between Google and Mozilla back then. |
| 02:52 | <nsITobin> | and if none of that is relevant to today.. neither is really all the crap that has up till now never been questioned or more properly ALLOWED to be questioned.. so I figure the future CAN be wide open.. Thus I am here trying. |
| 02:52 | <nsITobin> | How am I doing? |
| 02:52 | <nsITobin> | Please leave a comment .. here. |
| 02:52 | <nsITobin> | lol |
| 03:02 | <nsITobin> | So yeah.. in summery.. radically change the organization and governance of the WhatWG and also embrace XML technologies as equally valid and stop doing Google and increasingly Microsoft's corporate interest driven bidding. Also Mozilla is more or less full of its self and can't be trusted anymore to act on behalf of the internet population and needs taken down a peg for not only causing all this but failing to be bothered to even live up to it or its own past. |
| 03:03 | <nsITobin> | and get off github |
| 03:03 | <nsITobin> | and you will have a dramatically better and fairer Web Hypertext Application Technology Working Group |
| 03:04 | <nsITobin> | I am sure my stuff can be mined for more tidbits of benefit but that will be sufficient for now. |
| 03:07 | <nsITobin> | I mean WHATWG is not a stranger to radical changes but my changes may be off brand.. to that I say.. deal with it.. things will be better for it. |
| 03:09 | <nsITobin> | Or make it clear that I should piss off and potentially but not very likely obsolete you all with 20 year old technology. |
| 03:09 | <nsITobin> | It could be fun to try. |
| 03:12 | <nsITobin> | I didn't have a lot of fun last time because I had to justify my capability and was still burned for it.. This time it will be FUN. |
| 03:34 | <nsITobin> | If I can't have a voice in the shaping in the future of the web at this point because I don't have dollar signs and can hire people with social skills .. i dunno how that is any better than the W3C in the end.. I do know the W3C was defeated once and their defacto successor on html is making even worse mistakes. Especially in a time where regardless of your politics.. elites are making their moves because for elites power is the only real political correctness |
| 03:34 | <nsITobin> | and valid social contract |
| 03:36 | <nsITobin> | power and acceding to their authority as a company in the industry they control. |
| 03:36 | <nsITobin> | or some industry professional who can't keep a job more than 2 years |
| 03:37 | <nsITobin> | but is always gainfully employed SOMEWHERE |
| 03:38 | <nsITobin> | Mozilla.. OLD Mozilla Netscape-employed Mozilla wasn't like this.. and I am SURE KDE didn't want this either for their engine. |
| 03:40 | <nsITobin> | or the web |
| 03:41 | <nsITobin> | and Google.. Google has never been about anything other than services that can place ads on. |
| 03:41 | <nsITobin> | What the hell even IS this organization?! |
| 03:45 | <nsITobin> | Basically if WhatWG had happened in the 90s.. u'd be selling Chromium Mark of Quality Logo Licenses to non-chromium browsers and no browser not carrying the Chromium Mark of Quality would be trusted.. Effectively That is the web on a functional level THANKS to the WhatWG. |
| 03:45 | <nsITobin> | and I want something done about it. |
| 03:50 | <nsITobin> | Or is the WhatWG supposed to be the solution to the browser war.. cause it isn't.. it just means when it falls many enemies will fall with it with one stroke.. |
| 03:50 | <nsITobin> | is that good for the open web? |
| 03:54 | <nsITobin> | And how is inverting things the solution.. strict markup and loose js vs loose markup and strict and ever cryptically complex javascript.. How is anything WhatWG has done benefit more than the bottom line of its particpants? |
| 03:55 | <nsITobin> | I love when I come to these kinds of places and very little is ever said in response to a slew of questions.. once the first contact has decided I won't just accept and leave. |
| 03:56 | <nsITobin> | one strat involves attacking and banning the other involves silence. I am aware of both and really can't care less. I will continue. |
| 03:58 | <nsITobin> | I would contend that save video streaming because but mah netflix and youtubes .. nothing that has come from HTML 5 has objectively been better than HTML 4 let alone XHTML 1.0 |
| 03:58 | <nsITobin> | just as everything ES6+ except promises was all achievable in ES5 |
| 03:59 | <nsITobin> | and nothing new to the modern web didn't already exist in a Mozilla XUL codebase at some point save DRM |
| 03:59 | <nsITobin> | Anyone care to debate that? |
| 03:59 | <nsITobin> | To prove me wrong or how mistaken I am? |
| 04:00 | <nsITobin> | Do anything other than the status quo NO ONE ASKED FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE? |
| 04:02 | <nsITobin> | also excluding AI of course. |
| 04:03 | <nsITobin> | I am also PARTLY a result of the consequences of the WhatWG. |
| 04:05 | <nsITobin> | because of what you all have done to a thing to many things I have cared about since I was 8 and have made a significant part of my life ever since. HTML and the World Wide Web. |
| 04:08 | <nsITobin> | I would gladly give up XUL for the specs from the end of 90s to still prevail especially XML-based ones |
| 04:10 | <nsITobin> | and when browsers used to be navigators |
| 04:12 | <nsITobin> | How is a Hypertext Application the same as a website.. why aren't you something else rather than slowly but progressively overwriting stuff with other stuff that isn't as capable? |
| 04:13 | <nsITobin> | Why does the web have to be THIS and not some other additional valuable protocol and set of technologies on the Internet? |
| 04:14 | <nsITobin> | in addition to the world wide web I logged on to in the 90s |
| 04:15 | <nsITobin> | better that than the current strategy of seizing and overwriting anything one can get their hands on or merely excluding anything else including revitalized efforts otherwise |
| 04:20 | <nsITobin> | and what if I created some old-web protocol and used old-web technologies that also allowed self-signed as valid for integrity but not identity so that central authorities certs can be used when its important and not a cost in time or money depending on if timesink cert or paid cert. Would your corperate masters add the protocol and retain features and capabilities largely XML stuff for it? |
| 04:20 | <nsITobin> | I doubt it. |
| 04:20 | <nsITobin> | it's not in the profit plan. |
| 04:21 | <nsITobin> | and EVEN if I actually REMOVED standard http from my xul browser and it ONLY accessed my old web protocol it would still be shat upon for not only its XUL tech not being web compatible AND for reinventing the wheel everyone wants busted to pieces. |
| 04:23 | <nsITobin> | It's already no-win for me as-is and I really don't care I just want solutions and a future that isn't a google initiated microsoft hell that isn't even as interesting as the one planned in the 2000s |
| 04:25 | <nsITobin> | Especially when all the wheels the WhatWG makes have an arbitrary expiration date attached and browser parity STILL might not happen but broad adoption outside $mainstream is difficult to impossible |
| 04:25 | <nsITobin> | Google Wheels have Chrome hubcaps obviously every browser needs chrome-like hubcaps |
| 04:25 | <nsITobin> | disgusting. |
| 04:26 | <nsITobin> | Microsoft hubcaps perform illegal operations and need shut down.. can't wait for Chrome Browser to be sold off and Microsoft slots in to defacto chromium maintainer and shoves that down to even Firefox. |
| 04:26 | <nsITobin> | their final revenge for netscape i guess |
| 04:26 | <nsITobin> | except.. I am still alive. |
| 04:27 | <nsITobin> | and too old to stop |
| 04:28 | <nsITobin> | and obviously won't shut up. |
| 04:28 | <nsITobin> | sooo |
| 04:36 | <nsITobin> | If the speculation in the Mozilla Outskirts is correct then if Microsoft assumes Google's defacto leadership and lead on WhatWG specs you will have become the W3C and MUST be endrun with a new standards body. |
| 04:36 | <nsITobin> | I hope you all realize that. |
| 04:38 | <nsITobin> | Maybe it could be me or maybe it could be someone else. But its a real concern that SHOULD concern the WhatWG |
| 04:40 | <nsITobin> | It's happened before.. the WHATWG did it. |
| 04:42 | <nsITobin> | It's the only way to preserve an Open Web after all. |
| 04:42 | <nsITobin> | ;) |
| 04:46 | <nsITobin> | precedents when remembered are a bitch aren't they? |
| 04:48 | <nsITobin> | It's the same risk as anything really.. when you usurped status quo its all sunshine and rainbows but when you ARE the status quo because you usurped the role even in a minority of people's minds.. you open your self to your own potential downfall.. |
| 09:17 | <mr. cheff> | wtf did I just read |
| 09:18 | <mr. cheff> | sorry but no one's going to use your browser |
| 12:57 | <koakuma-chan> | Hey, |
| 12:59 | <koakuma-chan> | I’m building an audio player and one issue I’m currently facing is that, in order to start the next audio in the playlist, the user has to open the page to unpause it for it to process the events, etc. Is there any way to work around this? Like somehow wake the page when audio stops playing or something similar? |
| 14:55 | <nsITobin> | Good morning. I do believe I did imply that given the conditions surrounding it. But I could do it.. and there is a statistical probability it might explode and take off like crazy.. Just not a very good one ;) |
| 14:57 | <nsITobin> | People.. have STOLEN xul code from me from private repos.. SOMEONE other than me is nuts enough and willing to pull scriptkiddy tricks on a gitea instance to get it.. |
| 14:57 | <nsITobin> | people have tried to steal my branding and logo artwork |
| 14:57 | <nsITobin> | it's not impossible just unlikely. |
| 14:58 | <nsITobin> | Which is my point. Basically the point of any argument put forth by an autist. |
| 14:58 | <nsITobin> | well a good number anyway |
| 14:59 | <nsITobin> | and the WHATWG's existence indicates things can change in a big way because it has happened before. |
| 15:01 | <nsITobin> | Who knows.. since I have no resources to legally defend my rights I might very well be the architect of the WHATWG downfall it will just be someone else stealing my plans and technology and taking the credit.. I dunno. The future doesn't make sense anymore. |
| 15:02 | <nsITobin> | That is why I am here. |
| 15:15 | <nsITobin> | Not coming here.. wherever here was before Matrix.. didn't accomplish anything other than all the technology i ever wanted and the near destruction of my personality and soul.. I survived and stuff still ain't any better broadly let alone for my self. That is where I am now. |
| 15:24 | <nsITobin> | SPEAKING of no one using my browser.. XUL isn't the only thing there is Modern Mozilla.. its chief issue beyond all the telemetry and service bs and any semblance of real extensibility was gutted and obliterated one interface at a time over years bug after bug.. Anyway the chief issue with Firefox is its UI decisions from Firefox 4 onward.. Pale Moon's Strata 4 style, australis, photon, whatever it is called today.. all stuff users never wanted or even like.. it is why Mozilla has dropped in marketshare.. Regardless the BASIC interface is important. And I think even a modern browser that is laid out and application feature wise is somewhere between Firefox 2 and 3 .. bonus points if the aesthetic can be revived. I have done some experiments towards that end last year.. While transforming a XUL browser back to something more traditional isn't that hard.. Modern Firefox is a lot harder.. But the experiments showed promise. |
| 15:25 | <nsITobin> | just a proof of concept. So I can do what I do to XUL on Modern Firefox as well.. after adapting to the changes.. |
| 15:25 | <nsITobin> | and netwerk.. the necko lib? it's not that different between then and now.. so my protocol bs could apply on a MODERN BROWSER |
| 15:29 | <nsITobin> | of course my goal would be to get MODERN firefox looking like this: My upcoming xul browser |
| 15:30 | <nsITobin> | and there is nothing but gobs of stuff layered on top that is in my way.. Traditional interfaces MIGHT lead to a more traditional web. |
| 15:30 | <nsITobin> | How about that? |
| 15:33 | <nsITobin> | As far as web applications go.. I like PHP my self with as little javascript as possible.. None is prefered. |
| 15:34 | <nsITobin> | it would be flatter on non-win7 |
| 15:34 | <nsITobin> | of course |
| 15:34 | <Colin Alworth> | You’re using this channel as a text editor, rather than making a single coherent case. When you “pause” and ask for comment but don’t wait and give the assembled async readers the chance to respond (2-3 days id guess), you are ensuring only that no one will read it. |
| 15:35 | <nsITobin> | I have a lot to express. |
| 15:35 | <Colin Alworth> | That doesn’t make this a good approach, it only alienates potential readers. |
| 15:35 | <nicolo-ribaudo> | I very strongly recommend writing all of this as a blog post and then share the blog post in this channel, rather than sending a hundred messages |
| 15:36 | <Colin Alworth> | This is more like spam than a treatise |
| 15:36 | <nsITobin> | Colin Alworth: it is OBVIOUS i know no other means or approach. It is also obvious I am not letting that stop me anymore.. its been fifteen years. |
| 15:37 | <Colin Alworth> | If you aren’t interested in feedback to improve, you clearly won’t be interested in collaboration, and you’re asking to be ignored. |
| 15:37 | <nsITobin> | You are holding me to social rules I don't understand. Please stop. |
| 15:38 | <nsITobin> | Colin Alworth: I am NOT ignoring your feedback I just don't know what to do with most of it.. I never do. |
| 15:40 | <nsITobin> | My alternative was to give those freaks at the Pale Moon project the legitimacy they wanted and that was an unmitigated disaster .. nothing I do or say here about stuff will ever be as bad. |
| 15:44 | <nsITobin> | built and transformed them into a model of a mini-mozilla.. multiple applications.. service infrastructure.. the add-ons site.. a fully functional late model XUL platform.. all because of me from a once firefox rebrand.. |
| 15:44 | <nsITobin> | I have that capability. |
| 15:47 | <nsITobin> | Biggest mistake i made was for a long time merely attributing MY accomplishments to the project which made it easier for me to become the scapegoat when not set off as an attack dog. |
| 15:48 | <nsITobin> | which is the primary function I am known for not for anything that makes a project at that level possible |
| 15:48 | <nsITobin> | multiple projects |
| 15:49 | <nsITobin> | with my server i donated use of vs what i got in return.. i am owed 120 dollars still.. but i worked for nothing for a decade |
| 15:49 | <nsITobin> | because I don't HAVE the social skills to do anything else |
| 15:49 | <nsITobin> | and what ones I did got badly eroded.. I am working on it.. |
| 15:55 | <nsITobin> | but that 120 is of a total of a sub thousand dollar balance so basically he KINDA paid for his hosting but not all of it.. and nothing. This is money i could have used for food mind you. Same as my servers today that have gone virtually unused for 3 years. I could have cancelled them and had more food. |
| 15:57 | <nsITobin> | Yes. I transformed a rebuild into a mini-mozilla for a decade for a thousand dollars. That is my capability.. and all without social skills apperently. |
| 15:57 | <nsITobin> | So ignore me if you want i guess. Though it makes me more sad than angry at this point. |
| 16:04 | <nsITobin> | I just wonder what I could have done with the 200 million 400 million mozilla was getting every year last decade when I did all that for around a thousand dollars total just with dedication and work plus a server |
| 16:05 | <nsITobin> | that my addition was worth so much then but not worth spit now. |
| 16:06 | <nsITobin> | and that the stuff I did do is rotting. |
| 16:07 | <nsITobin> | but still props up their credibility in the eyes of their users and the uninformed |
| 16:34 | <nsITobin> | I have mentioned embracing XML as an equal web technology, I have mentioned the issue with the monoculture and governance and voting issues.. I have expressed my own opinions, my own accomplishments regardless of how tainted they are, my own realization of my own harm which has little to do with the technology.. and their continued threat as well as the very nature of the WHATWG being a rebel usurping force that may very well have it done to them as well as the personal impacts on my own development and progression through life as the decisions and such filter down to me. I have also related that I am in no way good at this because it is beyond the technology its self and why and have been honest about everything. If that isn't sufficient. I really can't know what is and that should invoke other things I am entitled to but never does of course. |
| 16:39 | <nsITobin> | it isn't all one big rigged system it is thousands of small rigged systems with slightly different rules I understood that before I even disagreed with most of it. It's worse now. |
| 16:45 | <nsITobin> | Aside from obviously going away.. I dunno what you guys want from me in exchange for changing things for the better for some, including me, that have been left behind, thrown out, or whatever. |
| 16:56 | <nsITobin> | One person mentioned async readers.. That i don't understand.. I have issues wrapping my head around async code. It is not the first time I have heard that but it is the second instance.. I use IRC and also used to use every instantmessenging service and even ICQ before that. I basically grew up with Windows 3.1 and DOS and even with later 9x I booted to DOS first. Windows 2000 was when I essentially stopped using a command prompt.. It did me a disservice especially since I have always wanted to go Linux but hardware was never there until the late 2010s and I finally made it late 2023. Linux I made it. Finally. I have a command line and a display server with openbox and it has given me a lot of joy.. Wayland doesn't work for me and when it does work it doesn't work how I think it should.. it doesn't feel the same as X and it is murder on my hardware and resources. I as I stated before, started participating in an anti-wayland gist and was banned for wanting to organize an xorg fork from github globally erasing everything and crippling my infrastructure. I couldn't use normal channels in a normal way even if I wanted to now. |
| 16:58 | <nsITobin> | I don't have any real options or anything to really loose.. |
| 16:59 | <nsITobin> | I can't have a browser without being subject to everything WHATWG puts out.. I can't have a display server because its too god damned big to fork alone.. eventually I won't be able to use a computer effectively enough to be worth it.. I already have usabilty issues with touch screens.. |
| 17:00 | <nsITobin> | Not to mention AMD's decision to go LGA means I don't have the dexterity to risk damaging any of those bouncy pins when installing or changing a processor.. I have never bent a processor pin because the physical nature allows me to compensate for my bad dexterity |
| 17:01 | <nsITobin> | I am LOOSING everything even if i DO NOTHING. Why else would I even bother. |
| 17:01 | <nsITobin> | and I can't just keep my OS and shit the same forever cause browsers will leave compatibility |
| 17:02 | <nsITobin> | I.. am beyond what I can cope with here.. that too should be obvious. |
| 17:02 | <nsITobin> | and yet i feel i must continue trying.. |
| 17:02 | <nsITobin> | not just for me but for everyone I could help |
| 17:05 | <nsITobin> | If that is worthy of being ignored for.. Then save a step and ban me. I should have been banned years ago judging my everything so it WOULD be on brand AND on the agenda and might save a few dollars later on too. |
| 17:06 | <nsITobin> | Cause it is entirely possible I could spend months talking about it to unreceptive people instead of actually doing it. |
| 17:08 | <nsITobin> | ... There I go again giving people what they need to defeat me.. Sometimes I think I am too helpful. |
| 17:16 | <nsITobin> | Wonder if Matrix has shadowbans yet.. Most matrix users I know are in favor of them for anyone deemed undesirable. Sure is a powerful weapon now in the hands of powerful corperations like Microsoft whom gatekeeps any access to whatwg activities. |
| 17:16 | <nsITobin> | via github. |
| 17:17 | <nsITobin> | on libera.chat their irc server has a mode that makes it so only chanops can see what you say but not other peers.. Wonder if matrix will get that instead. |
| 17:17 | <nsITobin> | That would be great to use on me. |
| 17:18 | <nsITobin> | Might not notice for a week or two. |
| 17:20 | <nsITobin> | Save you guys from doing it manually ;) |
| 17:23 | <nsITobin> | My self is the only resource I have and I expend it like others would money for the benefit of others and .. the near false hope that it might help. |
| 17:24 | <nsITobin> | and I might be helped in return. |
| 17:33 | <nsITobin> | Standards that change are NOT standards they are arbitrary policy. |
| 17:34 | <nsITobin> | Living Standards are just a standard that says policy is always right. |
| 17:34 | <nsITobin> | How is that remotely good for anyone OTHER than the policy makers |
| 17:36 | <nicolo-ribaudo> | The goal of these standards is for the "policy makers" to agree with each other, rather than every of the major browsers implementing their own version of the web |
| 17:37 | <nsITobin> | That is called collusion. |
| 17:37 | <nsITobin> | corporate collusion |
| 17:37 | <nsITobin> | it's textbook cartel behavior |
| 17:38 | <nsITobin> | because it isn't coming from the demands of people using the web it comes from people SELLING the web as a product |
| 17:38 | <nsITobin> | The web has been radically transformed and only CURRENTLY maintains a legacy compatibility. |
| 17:39 | <nsITobin> | when it SHOULD have eben something else |
| 17:39 | <nsITobin> | that MAYBE replaced the web and MAYBE didn't |
| 17:39 | <nsITobin> | it was just all forced for fifteen years and the WHATWG is at the center of it |
| 17:42 | <nicolo-ribaudo> | I do not necessarily disagree, but this approach is not going to change anything. You are writing a wall of text that: - is so long and unstructured that guarantees nobody is going to read it - it's basically preventing any other communication, because it's difficult to jump in while it appears there is another very active conversation going on Either you try to engage constructively (and, if the goal is to radically change everything, you'll need to convince _a lot_ of people), or this is equivalent to just... doing nothing to reach whatever your goal is |
| 17:43 | <nicolo-ribaudo> | And this channel is moderated, so if you continue like this one of the moderators will probably end up silencing you |
| 17:43 | <nsITobin> | I don't think anything you guys have done would be so bad if it didn't come at the expense of things before it that in some cases were better |
| 17:43 | <nsITobin> | it can exist side by side |
| 17:43 | <nsITobin> | as a choice |
| 17:44 | <nsITobin> | and there is no way after HTTP is no longer a TCP/IP protocol that legacy web stuff will be retained.. only a pretense of some similar functionality |
| 17:44 | <nsITobin> | just like in the end user software of the companies writing the specs |
| 17:45 | <nsITobin> | Going forward I wish very much to see xml tech sidebyside if not actually embraced and certainly not disparaged and I would like to see a mroe bottom UP WHATWG organization so that the demands of the web are by people using the web not agents of the companies that sell it. |
| 17:46 | <nsITobin> | this would make the term "Open Web" actually mean something and not just be a label for can't disagree with it cause its "Open" |
| 17:47 | <nsITobin> | and for the WHATWG to move off github to somewhere independant |
| 17:47 | <nsITobin> | of the spec writers |
| 17:47 | <nsITobin> | so no spec writer can for other reasons deny entry |
| 17:48 | <nsITobin> | nicolo-ribaudo: would you like it formatted in markdown with a bullet point summery? |
| 17:48 | <nsITobin> | is that REALLY the issue? |
| 17:49 | <nsITobin> | I can't open a pull request or an issue on github tho |
| 17:55 | <nsITobin> | Of course I could have taken on the mantel of the New Tobin Paradigm and come in shouting EX-TER-MIN-ATE like the old days seems like it would be at LEAST as effective as the NOT doing that I been trying. Kinda sucks really. |
| 17:57 | <nsITobin> | Non-perfect expression means any expression really doesn't matter if its screaming crying debating arguing or stating.. it ain't perfect so its not valid much of the time. I can make my self okay with taht again if it would be helpful. |
| 17:59 | <nsITobin> | and yet strict xml markup is bad.. go figure. |
| 18:07 | <nsITobin> | If I am gonna be ignored strictly based on my articulation of what I am trying to express then there is a MUCH LARGER issue here than one slightly insane documented and diaganosted autistic that feels lied to and has had stuff taken away and been attacked and eroded for years for simply trying to hold on to it in my own little corner |
| 18:23 | <nsITobin> | My dream was to be a web designer .. the Modern Web brought with it everyone using the same uninspired magazine large thin text on a stark white background unless inverted and killed all creativity just as Mozilla killed it within their own rich and mature eco system. |
| 18:23 | <nsITobin> | the Modern Web is not a web of documents and resources.. it is a web of corporate services and paywalls. |
| 18:24 | <nsITobin> | walls everywhere |
| 18:24 | <nsITobin> | roadblocks |
| 18:24 | <nsITobin> | hurdles to jump over |
| 18:24 | <nsITobin> | it never ends |
| 18:25 | <nsITobin> | the goal posts ever streching and the goals them selves ever changing |
| 18:26 | <nsITobin> | because its a marketing department and product r&d lab for a cartel of browser vendors where most use the same exact engine |
| 18:26 | <nsITobin> | The Modern Web continues to exclude me with every change just as surely as my flawed articulation does. |
| 18:28 | <nsITobin> | anything other than normal regardless of the label resolves to the word retard.. and that is how I am treated and regardless how close an emulation I make towards the accepted form of expression it won't be perfect and almost certainly won't be seen as valid.. I simply am not letting that stop me anymore. |
| 18:29 | <nsITobin> | I will need either not ignored or cut down.. Limbo sucks. |
| 18:29 | <nsITobin> | Decide. |
| 18:31 | <nsITobin> | you guys have indirectly .. largely indirectly altered my path and the choices I would otherwise have made.. Now you can do it directly. |
| 18:34 | <nsITobin> | Choose for me. It's what the WHATWG wants. |
| 18:39 | <nsITobin> | You're all about rapid progress.. why so slow in resolving the unexpected Tobin issue? |
| 18:40 | <nsITobin> | I have already admitted I am either unlikely or unable to follow social constructs originating past the early 2010s so all that Trump provoked overreaction that merely gave him the tools to silence us all in the end.. Yeah them swinging CoCs.. I won't respect that any further than mid-2000s forum rules extended. |
| 18:41 | <nsITobin> | i didn't read it because it would just make this harder for me |
| 18:41 | <nsITobin> | not recently i did read the 2019 version |
| 18:42 | <nsITobin> | so I can be banned at any time.. |
| 18:42 | <nsITobin> | and I am aware of it. |
| 18:57 | <nsITobin> | Once we had a universal rulebook for how citizens of the internet should be.. I'd love to still employ those and have everyone do the same.. The internet was nicer before all the mandated social contracts |
| 18:59 | <nsITobin> | most forum rulesets included most of it. Moderation processes were known and unambiguous and sometimes but not always there were ways to redress abuses in power .. one way or another. |
| 19:01 | <nsITobin> | The Internet was in effect a new world with unique problems and solutions and a rich culture of its own.. before the rise of the memes.. It's largely gone now.. The very idea of not using some common framework or the latest shiny feature or not being instantly compatible with a corperate product is unthinkable.. NOW a big push in open source is the falsehood that open source projects MUST be funded and governed by a corporation or it isn't trustworthy |
| 19:01 | <nsITobin> | backed by increasing enforcement of digital signing of applications |
| 19:03 | <nsITobin> | and some of that can be lead straight back to the WHATWG and other similar newer modern organizations deciding web and internet standards |
| 19:04 | <nsITobin> | what is on the phone must be how it is on the computer and how it is on the web must be how it is on the phone which must be how it is on the computer AND I CAN'T FUCKING USE ANY OF IT TO ANY DEGREE THAT MAKES ME NOT WANT TO COMMIT SUICIDE IN RESPONSE. |
| 19:05 | <nsITobin> | But if I did that I couldn't be here to TRY something slightly more constructive than killing my self. |
| 19:05 | <nsITobin> | my life is more important than your fucking collective social circle jerk. that is non-negotiable. |
| 19:16 | <mr. cheff> | god, is this channel literally this guy just talking about XUL |
| 19:17 | <nsITobin> | Ways to improve WHATWG
|
| 19:20 | <mr. cheff> | such huge wall of text |
| 19:20 | <nsITobin> | even if you ignore xml those three are very good ideas |
| 19:20 | <mr. cheff> | I just cant read it |
| 19:20 | <mr. cheff> | too much |
| 19:21 | <nsITobin> | I just summerized |
| 19:21 | <nsITobin> | mr. cheff: this time in a bullet point markdown form christ |
| 19:21 | <nsITobin> | what do you want OTHER than my utter extermination? |
| 19:21 | <nsITobin> | for disagreeing |
| 19:21 | <mr. cheff> | the thing is that you are just talking alone |
| 19:22 | <mr. cheff> | this is a very one-way conversation |
| 19:22 | <mr. cheff> | makes it boringh |
| 19:23 | <nsITobin> | That isn't my fault. I have been excessively conversational and flowed through many topics I have repeated repeatedly while repeating them and summerized it in two ways. |
| 19:23 | <nsITobin> | the most important points |
| 19:24 | <nsITobin> | and excuse me but as far as I know almost nothing of HTML5 would exist without earlier XUL analogs in Mozilla |
| 19:24 | <nsITobin> | and Mozilla is a founding member of the WHATWG |
| 19:24 | <nsITobin> | custom elements is almost a complete reimpl of XBL in js |
| 19:25 | <nsITobin> | for christ sakes |
| 19:25 | <nsITobin> | Stop using my knowledge, love, and command of unpopular technology against me. |
| 19:27 | <nsITobin> | Not until you bring HTML to XUL parity and not a XUL parody. |
| 19:27 | <nsITobin> | is this understood? |
| 19:28 | <nsITobin> | I am talking to MANY walls actually. But common core can be explained for the miscalucation. |
| 19:30 | <nsITobin> | and here it is.. Why after fifteen years is HTML not anywhere near as capable as XUL? What have you been doing other than increasing profit margins? |
| 19:30 | <nsITobin> | and making teh web hard for anyone to do anything but consume it as an end user of say a television or games console? |
| 19:31 | <nsITobin> | I think it started as not wanting to use XML because W3C still likes XML .. slightly |
| 19:32 | <nsITobin> | what a petty reason to fuck up decades of hundreds of thousands of peoples work and effort and my life due to unfortunate circumstances indirectly caused by each and every one of you. |
| 19:33 | <nsITobin> | and a shitty reason to keep on with it today |
| 19:34 | <nsITobin> | how many of you are actually from the founding of the whatwg anyway |
| 19:34 | <nsITobin> | how many people have ACTUALLY experienced this technology |
| 19:34 | <nsITobin> | in the way they do now |
| 19:34 | <nsITobin> | with html |
| 19:35 | <nsITobin> | Where is HTML going aside into a binary udp protocol |
| 19:35 | <nsITobin> | what will it be in 10 years |
| 19:35 | <nsITobin> | will it even be markup anymore |
| 19:35 | <nsITobin> | or programmically generated |
| 19:35 | <nsITobin> | or AI generated |
| 19:36 | <nsITobin> | will the very act of writing HTML by hand become a social crime of the grandest order like xul is |
| 19:37 | <nsITobin> | That was used as a reason not to talk to me.. so i gotta know.. where is it going .. and what have i missed that is also not allowed by punishment of being cast out? |
| 19:38 | <nsITobin> | cause the CoCs never mention tech social crimes i might commit |
| 19:39 | <nsITobin> | also why is laziness a valid excuse for not reading which I find rude as hell.. but my flawed articulation is a social crime? |
| 19:40 | <nsITobin> | I don't have answers. |
| 19:41 | <nsITobin> | and I am loosing all that distract me from not having answers and worse the stuff that often lets me work through stuff to find answers. |
| 19:42 | <nsITobin> | and the last bullet point in the summery is to make it all actually worth it.. cause I can't see that it is |
| 19:46 | <nsITobin> | That is pretty much it. Any more is just gonna start repeating again or more than likely I will start calling out Mozilla Employees by name who have directly wronged me or my efforts. So yeah pretty much done. |
| 19:50 | <nsITobin> | Except this: Has it occurred to any of you that not everyone is gonna know how to express them selves let alone in a new environment and especially when they have grievances spanning a decade or more. By expecting everyone to implicitly know this makes you anti-autistic and likely a lot of other disorders and disabilities. Stop it. It is so bad that even I who tends to avoid the topic unless I am already being attacked to seem less vulnerable has to say something. |
| 19:51 | <nsITobin> | That includes my walls of unstructured flowing text. |
| 19:55 | <nsITobin> | If that is ignored.. as well.. then well I can just start attacking individuals for their arbitrary attributes forcing you to mob me into making my decision. |
| 19:55 | <nsITobin> | The structure may not be in my expression but it IS in my intent. |
| 19:57 | <nsITobin> | It comes down to this. I can in some small way serve the reexpansion of the open web or the whatwg can serve me by forcing my hand and overriding my fear of failing. |
| 19:58 | <nsITobin> | And then what I do is as I see fit. |
| 19:59 | <nsITobin> | Dramatic turning points are always the most lasting for me. It's a tool to help my advancement since largely no one cares. |
| 20:04 | <nsITobin> | There are 1.2k of you in this channel I would be surprised if half of you don't automatically hate me assuming the entire few days survives along enough to be read. |
| 20:06 | <nsITobin> | likely be spun into a grand protection of the openweb from spamming disruptive users and their technology. |
| 20:06 | <nsITobin> | looking forward to it.. i guess |
| 20:24 | <nsITobin> | The problem with social mandates as a replacement for regular old rules or deferring to netiquette is if I do take it to heart I will hold others to the same rules regardless of the circumstances and that comes from circumstances often being ok if its done to me but otherwise nope unthinkable especially if I do it. |
| 20:26 | <nsITobin> | If your system is not fair and I am not otherwise an equal but I get a foothold I will attempt to take it over. This is why the excuse of articulated expression is used because wow someone rude or uncivilized no need to listen to THEM. |
| 20:26 | <mr. cheff> | what ever man, I just use the internet for youtube |
| 20:27 | <nsITobin> | Good you are using a single service on one protocol.. great vision for the future. |
| 20:27 | <nsITobin> | or so it may be believed.. I am to remind you all it really isn't. |
| 20:27 | <nsITobin> | Why is your youtube more important than my xhtml? |
| 20:27 | <nsITobin> | explain that? |
| 20:29 | <mr. cheff> | because it's a really insignificant thing to worry about? I dont know about you man but I have to pay the bills |
| 20:30 | <nsITobin> | I would gladly accept the potential contention it may be AS important but then my next question is.. fantastic, how can we have both? And it will fall down again. |
| 20:30 | <mr. cheff> | if u wanna do an XUL browser or something, just do it |
| 20:30 | <mr. cheff> | but dont spam on this channel |
| 20:30 | <nsITobin> | i could do a qt ui on chromium .. stop trying to use XUL as a weapon against me because it is far more powerful as a weapon against the web.. and I understand it. |
| 20:31 | <mr. cheff> | great |
| 20:31 | <mr. cheff> | do it then |
| 20:31 | <nsITobin> | i did |
| 20:31 | <nsITobin> | for about a decade |
| 20:31 | <mr. cheff> | why are you saying "I could" then |
| 20:31 | <nsITobin> | didn't help |
| 20:31 | <nsITobin> | I could do it .. AGAIN |
| 20:32 | <mr. cheff> | but the first time didn't work? |
| 20:32 | <nsITobin> | mr. cheff: you should read above.. i explained it all |
| 20:32 | <nsITobin> | tl;dr is i made a mistake |
| 20:33 | <nsITobin> | i elevated others the wrong others |
| 20:33 | <nsITobin> | instead of doing it my self |
| 20:33 | <nsITobin> | and being in charge |
| 20:33 | <mr. cheff> | so let me get this straight, are you trying to do a chromium browser that supports XUL? |
| 20:33 | <mr. cheff> | because in your head, you think HTML is discriminating you? |
| 20:34 | <mr. cheff> | that's what im getting out of this idk |
| 20:34 | <nsITobin> | why would I do a chromium browser |
| 20:34 | <nsITobin> | i can of course .. maybe its a beast to compile on a single machine vs mozilla |
| 20:34 | <mr. cheff> |
|
| 20:34 | <nsITobin> | that would just be a UI |
| 20:35 | <mr. cheff> | ok, so you are making an engine that supports XUL because HTML is discriminating you? |
| 20:35 | <nsITobin> | as an example.. the XUL ui nature doesn't matter Firefox is xhtml and html based now with only a few remaining XUL widgets and my prelem experimentation I was able to strip off much of the styling to get back to a base toolkit/os styling.. it was very prelem and is above. |
| 20:36 | <mr. cheff> | mhm |
| 20:36 | <nsITobin> | I could do both stuff on UXP and modern firefox or i could be a traditional UI using chromium |
| 20:36 | <mr. cheff> | so is HTML discriminating you or... why are you mad exactly? |
| 20:36 | <nsITobin> | the web after fifteen years is NOT at parity with XML-based technologies from 25 years ago |
| 20:37 | <mr. cheff> | why would it have to be |
| 20:37 | <nsITobin> | why shouldn't it be? |
| 20:37 | <mr. cheff> | because it's a deprecated technology? |
| 20:37 | <nsITobin> | because some browser companies fifteen years ago decided xml is bad because xml is favored by the standards body they decided to endrun around? |
| 20:37 | <nsITobin> | depercated by WHOM |
| 20:38 | <nsITobin> | the WHATWG |
| 20:38 | <mr. cheff> | XML is bad |
| 20:38 | <mr. cheff> | HTML for the win |
| 20:38 | <nsITobin> | yeah destroying the potential of superior competing technologies how Google of you. |
| 20:39 | <mr. cheff> | what's so google about a markup language |
| 20:39 | <mr. cheff> | nah but now that you say it |
| 20:39 | <mr. cheff> | this project of yours have potential ngl |
| 20:39 | <mr. cheff> | I'd use it |
| 20:39 | <mr. cheff> | will it be for mobile as well? |
| 20:40 | <nsITobin> | Yes because I am gonna make something for a platform that I can't use or develop for.. |
| 20:40 | <mr. cheff> | you dont have a phone? |
| 20:40 | <mr. cheff> | now I get why you have so much free time |
| 20:40 | <nsITobin> | now if this was 2011 no problem.. we HAD xul on android in 2011 |
| 20:41 | <nsITobin> | only enough java to get XRE up and running like every other mozilla os widget code |
| 20:42 | <nsITobin> | android native fennec was doable in the mid 2010s |
| 20:42 | <mr. cheff> | I think you are crazy, trying to fight insignificant problems and attacking those who point out the truth |
| 20:42 | <nsITobin> | .. now its too far not even hardly using gecko except as an embed.. after they killed desktop embedding and kept killing it. |
| 20:42 | <mr. cheff> | no one's going to use your janky browser |
| 20:43 | <nsITobin> | which one.. the xul one or the modern firefox one |
| 20:43 | <nsITobin> | why is it janky |
| 20:43 | <mr. cheff> | the one you are going to make |
| 20:43 | <nsITobin> | why are you disparaging my capability and work when you know nothing about it while advocating on the side of an organization that has done everything in its power to eradicate it from existance |
| 20:44 | <nsITobin> | by mandate or by mob rule |
| 20:44 | <mr. cheff> | dont blame me |
| 20:44 | <mr. cheff> | it's true that the browser you are going to make |
| 20:44 | <mr. cheff> | will suck and no one will use it |
| 20:45 | <nsITobin> | They liked it the first time they were told to use it..they may like it again.. |
| 20:46 | <nsITobin> | and the prelem experimental testing on modern firefox |
| 20:46 | <mr. cheff> | yeah your pale moon followers liked it |
| 20:46 | <mr. cheff> | no shit |
| 20:46 | <nsITobin> | addressbar and icons need major work |
| 20:46 | <nsITobin> | not my followers |
| 20:46 | <mr. cheff> | that looks janky af |
| 20:46 | <mr. cheff> | I woudnt NOT use this |
| 20:46 | <mr. cheff> | do you not have a designer on the team? |
| 20:46 | <nsITobin> | aside from the Aero provided by windows 7 which on 10 would be flatter what is essentually wrong with the UI or layout |
| 20:47 | <nsITobin> | oh the modern firefox |
| 20:47 | <nsITobin> | i said it was VERY prelem experimental testing |
| 20:48 | <nsITobin> | I intend to layoutwise if not aesthetically match the XUL version |
| 20:48 | <mr. cheff> | as I said, it's ugly af |
| 20:48 | <mr. cheff> | id hate myself for even downloading it |
| 20:48 | <nsITobin> | then Windows 10 is ugly as fuck |
| 20:48 | <mr. cheff> | it is yeah |
| 20:48 | <nsITobin> | which is true |
| 20:48 | <nsITobin> | yeah |
| 20:48 | <mr. cheff> | but your browser is worse |
| 20:48 | <mr. cheff> | can it play youtube? |
| 20:49 | <mr. cheff> | can it play netflix? |
| 20:49 | <nsITobin> | but the idea is it isn't imposing anymore than you are already willing to accept by the OS you run.. stylistically |
| 20:50 | <mr. cheff> | I gave pale moon a try |
| 20:51 | <mr. cheff> | why doesnt speedometer even load |
| 20:51 | <nsITobin> | UXP long ago aquired PARTIAL webcomponents support so youtube works.. Netflix is a more complicated story.. it has ALWAYS discriminated against not-mainstream browsers even in the silverlight days even when it was only a year from last released Firefox.. The Unified XUL Platform however has no remaining DRM as eme requires a content decryption module that can only be used under license from google which would not even respond to the request locking it out despite previous inherited support from Mozilla in ESR52 at the time. |
| 20:51 | <mr. cheff> | wth |
| 20:51 | <nsITobin> | mr. cheff: you're behaving exactly as predicted. I have already came up with the responses to your attacks. |
| 20:51 | <nsITobin> | but let's continue. |
| 20:52 | <mr. cheff> | no you didn't? |
| 20:52 | <nsITobin> | The modern version of course will be able to run any DRM.. because IDC anymore about google's licencing.. They can sue me put me out of my misery. |
| 20:52 | <mr. cheff> | why would they sue you |
| 20:52 | <mr. cheff> | you are insignificant |
| 20:52 | <nsITobin> | if they don't want me to have it then Firefox should not have it as an open source thing or be disabled by default. |
| 20:53 | <mr. cheff> | anyways, im bored |
| 20:53 | <mr. cheff> | how do I mute channels in element |
| 20:53 | <nsITobin> | But does it feel good to shit on something that isn't perfect because its barely be started and then to apply modern standards to something you know won't support all of them from the get go? |
| 20:53 | <nsITobin> | Does that make you right? |
| 20:53 | <nsITobin> | because I tried that many times before and it didn't work |
| 20:54 | <mr. cheff> | I think the problem is that you think the world is againt you |
| 20:54 | <mr. cheff> | where that's not the case |
| 20:54 | <mr. cheff> | everyone that contradicts you in the slightest you take it as a huge offence |
| 20:54 | <mr. cheff> | trying to fight insignificant problems |
| 20:54 | <nsITobin> | The whole world.. i could only dream.. but there is by policy or by actions a lot against me either directly or simply because of who or what I am and the opinions I hold. |
| 20:55 | <mr. cheff> | because as I said, im just giving you factual facts |
| 20:55 | <mr. cheff> | no one will use it |
| 20:55 | <nsITobin> | I'm not allowed or socially adept enough to fight larger problems despite being often capable of doing the tasks. |
| 20:55 | <mr. cheff> | if it cant even play popular websites |
| 20:56 | <nsITobin> | "play popular websites" |
| 20:56 | <nsITobin> | the fuck does that even mean |
| 20:56 | <mr. cheff> | netflix, spotify, youtube, ... |
| 20:56 | <mr. cheff> |
|
| 20:56 | <mr. cheff> | so imagine |
| 20:56 | <nsITobin> | it runs youtube just fine tho full loading can be slower at times |
| 20:57 | <mr. cheff> | but I thought u hated html? |
| 20:57 | <mr. cheff> | XUL only browser |
| 20:57 | <nsITobin> | You're not very good at this. |
| 20:57 | <nsITobin> | You're getting into the areas of interaction by circumstance I do know.. attack and evade. |
| 20:57 | <mr. cheff> | ok, it's very simple |
| 20:58 | <mr. cheff> | you want to make a browser that only runs XUL because HTML is discriminating you |
| 20:58 | <mr. cheff> | and then, achieve what with it? |
| 20:58 | <mr. cheff> | complete internet freedom? |
| 20:58 | <nsITobin> | you are assuming that because you haven't read what I have said |
| 20:58 | <mr. cheff> | I did read it |
| 20:59 | <mr. cheff> | Tell me where im wrong |
| 20:59 | <mr. cheff> | what thing did I say that is wrong and please correct me |
| 20:59 | <nsITobin> | . |
| 20:59 | <mr. cheff> |
|
| 20:59 | <mr. cheff> | why |
| 21:00 | <nsITobin> | then you're a liar and did not read or you have faulty reading comprehension in that case sorry for calling you a liar. |
| 21:01 | <mr. cheff> | idk man u keep evading my questions lol |
| 21:01 | <mr. cheff> | it's normal I get confused |
| 21:02 | <mr. cheff> | you keep talking nonesense |
| 21:02 | <nsITobin> | I already answered it |
| 21:02 | <nsITobin> | why that needs done |
| 21:02 | <mr. cheff> | this |
| 21:03 | <nsITobin> | . |
| 21:03 | <mr. cheff> |
|
| 21:03 | <mr. cheff> | oh, so this is why all this started? |
| 21:05 | <nsITobin> | the speculation in the Mozilla Outskirts is the whatwg was formed because Google and especially Mozilla were sick of the W3C slowwalking stuff because of Internet Explorer. I have no reason to discount this speculation because it comes from former mozilla employees who told me about it at the time |
| 21:05 | <mr. cheff> | I feel like this isn't the whole story but ok |
| 21:05 | <nsITobin> | We don't have TIME for the whole story you can barely read my walls of text |
| 21:05 | <mr. cheff> | ah ok |
| 21:06 | <mr. cheff> | we have time to spend the whole day talking about a web standard |
| 21:06 | <mr. cheff> | but not to write a short story |
| 21:06 | <mr. cheff> | alr |
| 21:06 | <mr. cheff> | have a good day |
| 21:07 | <nsITobin> | I am debating to either play along or try and redirect.. its an old tactic police interrogation but with a troll bent.. Used to be fun in the old days when things weren't a disaster because of some tech decision |
| 21:09 | <nsITobin> | If you read ALL THE WAY back you'd know my primary objective was not so much to rehash the past which I can do endlessly but what should happen going forward |
| 21:12 | <nsITobin> | but that wasn't enough to ignore the assignments of blame and not punish the guilty I needed to explain WHY and that's not important.. so what is.. the past doesn't matter the present is only here for a moment and the future will be decided arbitrarily by corporate direction under for now a fascist state.. last time that happened things got nuts now all the technology is theirs .. would be mine too for a similar purpose if I would just use it.. but I like the other stuff better. |
| 21:14 | <nsITobin> | Social constructs and mandates fall apart when your technology is weaponized. and the corperate greed has financed a weaponized web to shut down and silence anyone and again.. YOUR technology drives it not my petty ass xml shit. Pale Moon not withstanding of course. |
| 21:16 | <nsITobin> | they were just absorbed by Final MAGA and I was cast out as the undesirable I have always known i was. Know how it feels to be thrown out by nazis for not being evil enough? |
| 21:16 | <nsITobin> | I do. |
| 21:16 | <nsITobin> | or rather thrown out so they can BE nazis cause I wouldn't let them |
| 21:16 | <nsITobin> | with my work. |
| 21:18 | <nsITobin> | Least I know Daddy Trump will fix it.. fix them.. fix you.. and fix me.. everyone will be fixed.. no more issues. |
| 21:19 | <nsITobin> | very few everyone left after tho but no issues.. But i won't be there to confirm it. |
| 21:20 | <nsITobin> | That's what I been hearing anyway.. |
| 21:20 | <nsITobin> | Maybe I should check to see if the Onion has bought infowars again yet for some real fake news. |
| 21:26 | <nsITobin> | The worst piece of trash I ever read was Technology Problems are People problems. |
| 21:27 | <nsITobin> | don't let the god damned republicans get wind of that jesus |
| 21:29 | <nsITobin> | their solution VERY soon is get rid of the people .. get rid of the problem.. like a ban but final. |
| 21:31 | <nsITobin> | is the god damned WHATWG web standards gonna help with THAT? |
| 21:32 | <nsITobin> | if I am on about small barely relevant problems the hell are any of you doing other than whatever the controlling intrests want .. which are one by one falling to Trump and even Google won't provide much defense microsoft certainly won't and Mozilla is incapable.. Opera doesn't matter and Apple is all about the desires of the rich and well off. |
| 21:34 | <nsITobin> | HTML especially HTML5 won't stop fascism. |
| 21:34 | <nsITobin> | it won't save lives |
| 21:34 | <nsITobin> | or prevent death or protect our democracy because that was sold off long before I was born. |
| 21:35 | <nsITobin> | at TIMES some of it has been loaned back but not for long |
| 21:39 | <nsITobin> | Here is how Technology is a people problem.. You keep technology in a state of magic and force everyone to obey without question THEN you attach it to a political mandate THEN you use that to bolster your ideas and you amass an army of support and you attack. Making sure instances of the older stuff are disparaged, people who use or enjoy it attacked, and you then cut any pretense of being what you said you are gonna be and do whatever the hell you decide. Just like anything else.. Cyberspace the internet the web and computers were supposed to be special the great shifting moment for humanity to become more than they are.. it started to happen.. I grew up in a part of it.. then suddenly everyone turned.. on a dime over a small period of about 3 years and then full steam ahead rolling over everything and everyone not otherwise useful to the then overarching agenda .. which I believe long stopped being relevant once power and authority was achieved. |
| 21:40 | <nsITobin> | and that and profit became the agenda |
| 21:43 | <nsITobin> | We're past the then relevant politics that were used to establish the WHATWG as a fixture.. and the rest of the politics has failed.. NOW i want to know what to do next.. If the WHATWG is gonna do nothing different or get worse AND exclude me as a god damned browser vendor and implementor then my path is clear.. Destroy the WHATWG with the mature form of 25 year old technology.. Win or lose that is MY path should no others be available. |
| 21:44 | <nsITobin> | Or kill my self.. but the time for that passed once again. |
| 21:44 | <denschub> | You need to stop. Now. |
| 21:45 | <nsITobin> | Stop what? |
| 21:45 | <nsITobin> | Existing? |
| 21:45 | <nsITobin> | doubt I will comply |
| 21:46 | <denschub> | Okay, fine, let's do it the official way, then. |
| 21:47 | <denschub> | Hey nsITobin, we've met before and I'm sure you remember. I've read your musings for a while now and tried really hard not to get involved, but here we are. I'm not in any official WHATWG position, and I don't have moderation rights in this channel, but I'd like to remind you of something: the Matrix account you're using at the moment is a Mozilla-hosted account, and you know that I do, in fact, have both the abilities and the responsibilities to moderate that. I'm not the one to tell you what this room can be used for or not, but if you use your account to threaten, harass, and/or insult people - or just keep on spending hours completely flooding a channel with your unrelated musings, you'll gain my attention. For someone who hates Mozilla as much as you do, you sure seem to get a lot of mileage out of the infrastructure we provide. When signing up for that account, you agreed to, amongst other things, our Community Participation Guidelines, which cover all your use of your Mozilla accounts. You have already violated them at least twice here by actively threatening to harass people. Before you continue, I strongly encourage you to take a step back, leave this channel, remind yourself of the Mozilla CPG, and think about what your future use of your Matrix account should look like. If you want to have productive discussions about web standards, then do so, but what you're currently doing is not that. Stop it. |
| 21:48 | <nsITobin> | I don't think those terms existed when I registered the account.. |
| 21:48 | <nsITobin> | but i know shifting goalposts |
| 21:48 | <denschub> | You are wrong. Those terms existed before Matrix even existed, and this is also not up for debate. |
| 21:48 | <nsITobin> | I have not singled out a single mozilla employee |
| 21:49 | <nsITobin> | I am not directly attacking indviuduals |
| 21:49 | <nsITobin> | But you wanna ban me from this on mozilla's matrix then I will come in with my matrix.org account and be banned for evasion.. process crimes |
| 21:49 | <nsITobin> | that's all you have |
| 21:50 | <nsITobin> | Or is Mozilla the company unaccountable but i must always be |
| 21:50 | <denschub> | Well sure, feel free to close your mozilla.org account and use your matrix.org account. You'll get rid of me that way, but I'm sure you'll gain new friends. |
| 21:50 | <nsITobin> | I don't close accounts. |
| 21:51 | <nsITobin> | I think its telling you want to use the literal situation regarding Microsoft and Github to do the same thing via Mozilla's matrix server |
| 21:52 | <nsITobin> | denschub: I do reememebr you and if you were to compare then and now you would see a marked difference but I am not perfect and I sick of pretending I know what the hell I am doing when talking to people.. I don't |
| 21:53 | <nsITobin> | Besides, I ordered Mozilla to exterminate me six months ago.. what is the hold up? |
| 21:54 | <nsITobin> | I will never be allowed back into mozilla channels |
| 21:54 | <denschub> | So, I take it that you don't care for what I said and you see no issue continuing your behavior as is, then? |
| 21:56 | <nsITobin> | I do but I think in this situation its telling. If I am so insignificant and worthless then why am I such a threat because I say words on the internet which over the past year HAS improved. |
| 21:56 | <nsITobin> | the mixed messaging is quite old |
| 21:56 | <jjaschke> | Gaslighting much? |
| 21:57 | <nsITobin> | I only learned the term last year so no |
| 21:58 | <nsITobin> | The whole thing shifted once why can't it shift back or sideways or just expand |
| 21:59 | <denschub> | You're not a threat. You're annoying the people who want to use this channel for productive chats, you're using your account to threaten harassment, and you're doing all kinds of other fun stuff. THAT is the issue. And if you don't stop voluntarily, then I'll make sure you're at least no longer able to use Mozilla's infrastructure to do that. |
| 22:00 | <denschub> | If you want to post your opinions on the world, start a blog and post it on reddit and hackernews. This isn't the space for you. Neither are most matrix channels. |
| 22:01 | <nsITobin> | As far as getting mileage from Mozilla infrastructure i haven't.. you here telling me this proves it.. The rest of the infrastructure I have to create my self none of it use useable anymore outside Mozilla.. this is part of my issues with them.. I can't be one of them.. I can't do my own thing.. and i can't NOT do my own thing.. and none of it works.. |
| 22:04 | <mattatobin> | . |
| 22:05 | <mattatobin> | denschub: I remember another Mozillian who said that to me on IRC once upon a time. |
| 22:05 | <mattatobin> | the second part |
| 22:05 | <mattatobin> | not the first |
| 22:08 | <mattatobin> | Once a upon a time I had a blog as well.. wordpress i wrote up stuff even got a little bit of coverage.. About Mozilla Rapid Release and how this fork called Pale Moon was more stable and worked better. |
| 22:08 | <denschub> | Yeah, who knows. Maybe that was me. Anyway, as you've surely noticed, I've temporarily suspended your mozilla.org Matrix account, and I'll have a chat with the other folks after the weekend to see if this is permanent or not. So I can go back to my weekend now, which is good. I'd still advise you to consider what you want to get out of your interactions. matrix.org has ToS, too, and once the moderators of this channel are back from their breaks, I'm sure they'll be happy to state if your behavior is welcome here or not. But if you want to be part of productive discussions about web standards, I'd not burn that bridge before even getting there. |
| 22:09 | <mattatobin> | Just ban it.. fuck sakes.. it just projects weakness IF your theory on my ban is legit.. |
| 22:10 | <mattatobin> | or fits with policy i guess as well |
| 22:11 | <mattatobin> | Also how can I be a productive member of anything I am not socially adept enough and not allowed on github because I wanted to fork xorg.. |
| 22:11 | <mattatobin> | and tried to recruit from that gist |
| 22:13 | <mr. cheff> | bro, out of anything |
| 22:13 | <mr. cheff> | you are not a threat |
| 22:13 | <mattatobin> | Gitlab doesn't work in older browsers even though github does.. mostly in UXP and the UI for gitlab is not great for me.. any hosting service is gonna be subject to arbitrary termination.. My own git forge was dos'd into nonfunctioning I had to resort to plain dumb http to keep any repos available |
| 22:15 | <mattatobin> | There are systemic issues with the world and the internet and the web and I can't deal with all of it and be blocked at nearly every turn from carving out my own little corner to delude my self what I am doing might matter |
| 22:15 | <nicolo-ribaudo> | Hey this conversation has to stop now. It has reached incredible levels of spam. Either this stops, or both @mattatobin:matrix.org (for the incredible level of spam) and @oxiidaw:matrix.org (for encouraging it) are going to be removed from this channel. |
| 22:15 | <mr. cheff> | ok, sorry |
| 22:15 | <mattatobin> | Spam. |
| 22:15 | <mattatobin> | Thanks. |
| 22:15 | <nicolo-ribaudo> | And please read https://whatwg.org/code-of-conduct |
| 22:16 | <mattatobin> | I can't it's too long. |
| 22:17 | <mattatobin> | Will anyone else be punished along side.. it makes it easier.. according to a point.. mr. cheff violated it. |
| 22:18 | <mattatobin> | his comments were direct personal attacks |
| 22:18 | <mattatobin> | not spam |
| 22:26 | <mr. cheff> | Anyways, I dont know if this is the place, but are there any insights on when the paintWorklet API will be fully cross-browser? |
| 22:27 | <mr. cheff> | Because I would like to use it in order to make squircles without clip-paths, but it seems to be only chromium only |
| 22:29 | <nicolo-ribaudo> | My best recommendation is to check in the various browser's issue trackers to see if there is any progress. I see that Mozilla's position on it is positive (https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/1089), but couldn't find anything for WebKit from a quick Google search |
| 22:30 | <mr. cheff> | Bufff, last activity 2 years ago |
| 22:31 | <mr. cheff> | might as well just use clip-path with the fear that it uses lots of GPU |
| 22:31 | <mr. cheff> | that's what I got told at least |