| 00:03 | <Philip`> | Hmm, silly Gentoo |
| 00:03 | <Philip`> | I upgraded Opera to 9.25, and now when I click on the Opera icon it launches Opera 9.50 Alpha inside Wine |
| 00:28 | <kig> | http://glimr.rubyforge.org/cake/canvasmage.html hihih |
| 00:30 | <Philip`> | kig: Doesn't work in Opera 9.2 :-( |
| 00:30 | <Philip`> | "Syntax error while loading: line 55 of linked script at http://glimr.rubyforge.org/cake/canvasmage.js : }" |
| 00:31 | <Philip`> | (maybe due to a trailing comma in a { ... } list?) |
| 00:32 | <kig> | thanks, took it out |
| 00:32 | <Philip`> | kig: Works better now - thanks :-) |
| 00:32 | <Philip`> | The creature looks pretty broken in Opera, but that's probably just arc bugs |
| 00:33 | <kig> | circle strokes with gaps and visible polygon segments? |
| 00:34 | <Philip`> | kig: http://tinyurl.com/3y9kp3 |
| 00:35 | <kig> | dfsdg tinyurl data urls don't quite work in firefox |
| 00:35 | <Philip`> | Use Opera ;-) |
| 00:36 | <inimino> | with its buggy <canvas>? ;-) |
| 00:36 | Philip` | ought to find a better way of uploading small files |
| 00:36 | <kig> | wow, that is messed up |
| 00:36 | <Philip`> | inimino: It's not really more buggy than anyone else's <canvas> :-) |
| 00:37 | <inimino> | Philip`: Perhaps, but when I tried to use <canvas> last the only bugs I hit were in Opera |
| 00:38 | <jwalden> | kig: dunno if you have time, but is tinyurl trying to 302 redirect to them or something? |
| 00:38 | <kig> | jwalden: it gives 301 with the data: url |
| 00:38 | <jwalden> | I seem to recall that intentionally not being supported, sec |
| 00:38 | <kig> | which looks funny when trying to wget |
| 00:38 | <inimino> | (specifically just arc() stuff, that was about as far as I got) |
| 00:40 | <kig> | Philip`: does it look any better now? |
| 00:40 | <Philip`> | kig: It looks one pixel high |
| 00:41 | <kig> | eh? |
| 00:42 | <Philip`> | The example images are about 640x1 and 320x1 and 1200x1, like lines with some yellow/black/white gradient |
| 00:42 | <kig> | ghhh |
| 00:42 | <Philip`> | (By the way, your .json files aren't really JSON because you'd need to quote the key strings) |
| 00:43 | <jwalden> | kig: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211999#c19 seems to say it's fixed in 3.0, doesn't sound like it'll be fixed for 2.0 unless somebody complains |
| 00:44 | <kig> | jwalden: alright |
| 00:44 | <Philip`> | jwalden: Can I complain? I like having a tinyurlfs - but then again I like telling people to use Opera so maybe it's good that FF2 doesn't support it ;-) |
| 00:45 | <jwalden> | Philip`: complain in the bug if you want :-) |
| 00:45 | <jwalden> | redirecting to data URLs isn't especially mainstream, so I'm not super-worried if it doesn't work, to be honest |
| 00:46 | <Philip`> | kig: By the way, you could perhaps use ctx.__defineSetter__('fillStyle', ...) in Firefox and Opera 9.5 (and maybe others?) to catch people saying 'ctx.fillStyle = ...', instead of requiring 'ctx.setFillStyle(...)' |
| 00:46 | <jwalden> | think Safari added getter/setter support recently, dunno if it's in 3 or not |
| 00:48 | <kig> | Philip`: yeah, that'd be nice |
| 00:50 | <Philip`> | kig: It's no longer one pixel tall - it looks about the same as it did before |
| 00:50 | <Philip`> | s/about/exactly/ |
| 00:50 | <kig> | one pixel tall was using "draw, insert canvas, remove image" |
| 00:50 | <Philip`> | s/exactly/exactly except for a little bit around the beak/ |
| 00:51 | <kig> | now it's using "draw, img.src = canvas.toDataURL()" |
| 00:51 | <Hixie> | acid2 is apparently fixed |
| 00:51 | <Philip`> | kig: Hmm, odd |
| 00:51 | <kig> | but i'm doing hackery with copying the image style to the canvas style, so that might screw things up |
| 00:54 | <kig> | Philip`: try now |
| 00:54 | <Philip`> | kig: By the way, the CanvasMage thing is quite neat :-) |
| 00:56 | <Philip`> | It looks slightly more broken in Opera, since the red rectangle is now a wide triangle |
| 00:57 | <kig> | alright, that's screwed up |
| 00:57 | <kig> | i'll have to try and debug on opera tomorrow |
| 00:57 | <Philip`> | Oh |
| 00:57 | <Philip`> | It's random |
| 00:57 | <Philip`> | (It tends to change each time I reload the page) |
| 00:58 | <Philip`> | Probably same bug as http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/operanondet.html which gets rendered as http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/operanondet.png (but differently each time you reload) |
| 00:59 | <kig> | okay, opera gets the wtf award of the day |
| 01:01 | <Philip`> | That's fixed in 9.50 |
| 01:01 | <Philip`> | The whole image looks correct in 9.50, except for some gaps where curves don't join up neatly |
| 01:02 | Philip` | would probably suggest giving up on Opera 9.2 because it's far too broken |
| 01:03 | <kig> | yeah :/ |
| 01:03 | <Philip`> | (or emulate the curve-drawing functions with JS) |
| 01:04 | <kig> | i thought of breaking circles into four beziers but then i found another shiny bauble |
| 01:04 | <Philip`> | Hmm, I thought it was impossible to represent circles as Beziers, but maybe I'm misremembering |
| 01:05 | <Philip`> | http://pages.sbcglobal.net/tymmott-smith/Math/Bezier.html - "we cannot get a circle with a Bezier curve" - ah, I wasn't wrong |
| 01:05 | <Philip`> | though maybe you can approximate something good enough |
| 01:06 | <kig> | flash (iirc) uses quadratic curves for everything |
| 01:06 | <Philip`> | Flash doesn't have to worry about interoperability or about passing annoying test cases that try to ensure curves are exactly the right shape ;-) |
| 01:08 | <kig> | did some tests with canvasmage animations, but they tend to be a bit big. 300k for 50 frames uncompressed, 30k gzipped |
| 01:09 | <kig> | 1k procedural |
| 01:10 | <Philip`> | kig: What is the advantage of saving images/animations rather than just re-executing the original canvas script every time someone views it? |
| 01:11 | <kig> | faster to execute, more evil |
| 01:13 | <Philip`> | Maybe you could make the output much smaller by limiting the number of decimal places in all the floats, since those won't compress well |
| 01:13 | <kig> | e.g. image/animation based on heavy physics simulation, might take hours to generate, but the command array runs at 60fps |
| 01:15 | <kig> | yeah, let's see |
| 01:19 | Philip` | doesn't like how he keeps writing <script src=...> and forgetting the </script> |
| 01:21 | <kig> | stripping decimals might save 10-20%, but circles get gaps |
| 01:22 | <Philip`> | Can you strip fewer decimals? |
| 01:31 | <kig> | no visible gaps with four decimals, 10% smaller gzipped |
| 01:32 | <kig> | (599b vs 664b, i need a bigger test file) |
| 01:32 | <Philip`> | Try recording the output of Canvex ;-) |
| 01:33 | <kig> | no image support yet :< |
| 01:43 | <kig> | but hmm, maybe it'll work. let's see |
| 01:45 | <kig> | would have to replace render_ctx with a RecordingContext and add frame markers to the command stream |
| 01:45 | <jruderman> | Philip`: i forget the </script> even for inline scripts |
| 01:45 | <jruderman> | Philip`: i wish firefox would warn me instead of just showing a blank page |
| 01:46 | <jruderman> | Philip`: and i'm the one who insisted on that behavior :P |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | hmm, I didn't even get that bug about version= and baseProfile= |
| 12:01 | <salty-horse> | hi. seen this? http://stephenfry.com/blog/?p=32 |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | "due out soon" |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | heh |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | seems also that WHATWG is now a synonym for W3C... |
| 12:04 | <salty-horse> | you're welcome to comment with corrections |
| 12:06 | <Philip`> | "all subscribe to the Working Hypertext Application Technology Working Group mailing list (whatwg.org/mailing-list#specs) and exert pressure" - hmm, that probably won't have the desired effect |
| 12:08 | <hsivonen> | ouch. I'm a bit disappointed. I expected more accurate posts on stephenfry.com |
| 12:09 | <Lachy> | omg, that's the most innacurate crap I've read in a while |
| 12:09 | <Lachy> | since when did Nokia claim any ownership of ogg? |
| 12:10 | <Lachy> | and Apple have explicitly stated that they're not pushing their own formats |
| 12:11 | <Philip`> | Lachy: What someone explicitly states is not necessarily what they are really doing |
| 12:11 | <Philip`> | so saying "Apple doesn't like ..." is not clearly wrong (whereas saying "Apple says it doesn't like ..." would be, since they don't say that) |
| 12:13 | <Philip`> | (and saying "Nokia claims ownership of some elements of Ogg" is wrong since they haven't claimed that (as far as I'm aware)) |
| 12:45 | <kig> | heh, svgtext.svg is 64k, 27k gzipped. svgtext.json is 79k, 22k gzipped |
| 12:55 | <hdh> | heh, that stephenfry post also conflates open source and open standard, not a good move |
| 13:03 | <Dashiva> | If it's not open source, it's not open at all! |
| 13:05 | <hdh> | some business people twitch at open source (see "cancer"); but none can dispute the words "open standard" |
| 13:28 | <tndH> | okay, so now guardian readers think html 5 is evil? |
| 13:29 | <gsnedders> | tndH: what? in today's? where? |
| 13:29 | <tndH> | http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2007/dec/22/internet.digitalmedia |
| 13:30 | <tndH> | (same as the stephenfry.com link before) |
| 13:31 | <hsivonen> | well, the silver lining is that now the WHATWG list is noted on the Guardian |
| 13:31 | <gsnedders> | We're in print! |
| 13:32 | <hsivonen> | (if you believe that all publicity is eventually good) |
| 13:35 | <gsnedders> | Hey, more uninformed emails! |
| 13:44 | <tndH> | all i can imagine while reading through the stephen fry article is the QI siren going off and deducting him 10 points |
| 14:01 | <salty-horse> | are you going to email the guardian/post a comment? |
| 14:05 | <maikmerten> | err.... |
| 14:05 | <maikmerten> | "The problem is that Nokia claims ownership of some elements of Ogg, which is essentially the file format for the streaming and delivery part of the codec" |
| 14:05 | <maikmerten> | that is... not correct |
| 14:06 | <maikmerten> | Nokia to my knowledge never made such a claim |
| 14:13 | <gsnedders> | salty-horse: the issue is most of the copies of that article will be in print, and already sold. |
| 14:14 | <maikmerten> | actually here in Germany HTML5 is in print, too |
| 14:14 | <maikmerten> | in Magazin für Computertechnik (c't) |
| 14:14 | <maikmerten> | again mostly about <video> and codecs |
| 14:16 | <Philip`> | There will eventually be a point at which we have enough bandwidth and processing power to store video losslessly at the maximum resolution the human eye can perceive, so this codec thing is only a temporary problem |
| 14:17 | <gsnedders> | Philip`: the total bandwidth needed once we get more and more online would be huge, though |
| 14:18 | <maikmerten> | and even then there's the question why anyone would want to be so wasteful with resources |
| 14:18 | <salty-horse> | gsnedders, he could issue a clarification in the next column -- it's not the first time a print article was wrong |
| 14:18 | <gsnedders> | salty-horse: that's true |
| 14:18 | <maikmerten> | video can be compressed by a factor > 10 without anyone noticing anything |
| 14:18 | <maikmerten> | (usual factor 100 and bigger) |
| 14:18 | gsnedders | is half asleep doing too much |
| 14:19 | gsnedders | sigha |
| 14:19 | <gsnedders> | *sighs |
| 14:19 | <gsnedders> | IE6 is still the most common UA to my site :\ |
| 14:19 | gsnedders | blames search referrers such as "why does life get complicated when you think you gay" |
| 14:20 | <takkaria> | hah |
| 14:20 | <gsnedders> | (OK, that only got one, but you get the ideA) |
| 14:20 | <gsnedders> | *idea |
| 14:24 | <jwalden> | hsivonen: too bad Hixie actually didn't think to make it a task force instead of a working group ;-) |
| 14:25 | <gsnedders> | WTF? |
| 14:25 | <gsnedders> | (as in WHATTF?) |
| 14:27 | <jwalden> | yes, exactly |
| 14:27 | <jwalden> | I remember him saying one time that if he'd thought of it he'd have done it :-) |
| 14:30 | <hsivonen> | jwalden: well, fantasai has whattf.org |
| 14:30 | <takkaria> | I dislike Christmas; people stop posting so often to mailing lists and I find myself reading slashdot instead |
| 14:30 | <jwalden> | well-played! |
| 14:44 | <hsivonen> | so I'm thinking that I should provide a setting for filtering out foreign namespaces |
| 14:44 | <hsivonen> | should it filter out tags or the entire subtree rooted at a dropped element? |
| 14:45 | <hsivonen> | I'm leaning towards dropping the entire subtree |
| 14:45 | <hsivonen> | (consider foreign metadata elements in <head> or SVG <metadata> and what would happen if only text content were left) |
| 15:54 | gsnedders | is amazed that Lachy is actually twittering about snow in Norway |
| 16:35 | <annevk> | html5.org got over a 100.000 page requests on 11 December |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | normal amount is about 800-1000 a day |
| 16:36 | gsnedders | blinks, then realises annevk is doing the European norm of . being a thousand separator |
| 16:39 | <Dashiva> | gsnedders: Lachy is new in town :) |
| 16:40 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: I know, it still seems odd. |
| 16:40 | gsnedders | wants snow here (where here = east coast of Scotland) |
| 16:40 | takkaria | wants snow in the middle of Manchester, UK, but it's not going to happen. :) |
| 16:41 | annevk | would like 20 degrees in NL |
| 16:41 | <gsnedders> | haven't had proper snow here since 1997 |
| 16:41 | <annevk> | (Celcius) |
| 16:42 | <gsnedders> | we have 275K here |
| 16:43 | <gsnedders> | (i.e., 2°C) |
| 22:56 | <gsnedders> | oh I do love PHP. randomly using a 1-based array for unpack() :\ |
| 22:58 | <hdh> | on PHP, I just came across this, http://zestyping.livejournal.com/233348.html |
| 22:58 | <gsnedders> | hdh: not taught? it shouldn't exist! |
| 22:59 | <hdh> | http://zestyping.livejournal.com/124503.html?thread=690519#t690519 ← is that you ?-P |
| 22:59 | <gsnedders> | bo |
| 22:59 | <gsnedders> | *no |
| 22:59 | <hdh> | :) |
| 23:01 | gsnedders | wonders whether to rely on PHP have this bizarre behaviour forever or not |
| 23:03 | <Philip`> | Regardless of that particular bizarre behaviour, it's probably quite safe to rely on PHP having some bizarre behaviour forever, and thus use Perl or Python or Ruby or anything else :-) |
| 23:03 | <gsnedders> | no, Philip`, the PHP devs claim to not break b/c then break it in some bizarre way that breaks everything :) |
| 23:03 | <gsnedders> | (and I don't have choice about programming language, sadly) |
| 23:04 | hdh | is still temped towards touching some PHP, the HTML embedness feels nice, like XSLT |
| 23:06 | <gsnedders> | hdh: don't. |
| 23:06 | <gsnedders> | hdh: As someone who's used PHP for years, I can wholeheartedly say you don't want to use PHP. |
| 23:06 | <Philip`> | hdh: There are about three million different HTML templating systems in pretty much every language, so that's no reason to choose PHP :-) |
| 23:07 | <hdh> | uhm, ye, I haven't checked any out yet |
| 23:08 | hdh | spent some moments looking for a nice [Tt] and [Ff], and found "WƮƑ?", to avoid spiders making his page as non-safe |
| 23:09 | <hdh> | s/making/marking/ |
| 23:10 | gsnedders | wonders how his UTF-32 decoder is more expensive than his UTF-16 one |
| 23:11 | <gsnedders> | re-running it makes UTF-32 < UTF-8 < UTF-16 which is still odd |
| 23:11 | <gsnedders> | third time I get UTF-32 < UTF-16 < UTF-8 which is the expectation |
| 23:13 | Philip` | is currently using Template Toolkit in Perl, but doesn't really like it because it has seemingly-arbitrary syntactic restrictions so e.g. you can't use expressions inside [...]-style list literals |
| 23:15 | hdh | got a flash like "hook cheetah to pyblosxom"; a name to hunt down |
| 23:40 | Philip` | must remember not to set up web pages that do stuff like <a href="edit/[%message_id]">[% message_title %]</a> when message_title might be an empty string |
| 23:40 | <Philip`> | Uh, s/[%message_id]/[% message_id %]/ |
