| 00:03 | <Philip`> | (It is quite hideous and also slow, though) |
| 00:12 | <Philip`> | Argh, I wrote a test with arcTo and Firefox actually passed it :-( |
| 00:15 | jwalden | snickers |
| 01:26 | <Philip`> | Hmm, even KHTML does the peculiar http://tinyurl.com/2bfvog thing |
| 01:35 | <SadEagle> | Philip`: I cna probably get the guy wrote the relevant code here. |
| 01:36 | <Philip`> | SadEagle: Firefox and Safari do the same, so the problem is working out how the spec should say to do that |
| 01:37 | <SadEagle> | note: I have no idea of what in particular you're referring to here |
| 01:39 | <Philip`> | Ah - the issue is that a straight line with a wide stroke, with some suitable transformations before doing the stroke, draws the stroke as a skewed rectangle |
| 02:09 | Philip` | gets really tired of hitting the 'y' and 'n' keys in Safari |
| 02:37 | <Philip`> | http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html |
| 02:37 | <Philip`> | now with fewer incorrect tests, though still some |
| 02:40 | SadEagle | winces as he sees the effects of that load event bug |
| 02:41 | <Philip`> | Where are the effects? |
| 02:43 | <SadEagle> | hmm, never mind. somehow it didn't show up :-) |
| 02:44 | <SadEagle> | thanks for generating this. |
| 02:44 | <Philip`> | I had to run the tests in groups of 100, else it seemed to fail to load some of them |
| 02:45 | <Philip`> | I'm not sure if Safari's shadow rendering is worse than when I first tested it, or if I'm just being harsher and complaining that it's off by a single pixel line |
| 02:45 | <harri> | Philip`: thanks from me for the inclusion, too. |
| 02:45 | <Philip`> | s/complaining that/failing it because/ |
| 02:46 | <Philip`> | harri: Konqueror crashed horribly when I last tried doing canvas things with it (probably months ago), so I'm happy that it's able to be successfully tested now :-) |
| 02:47 | <SadEagle> | Philip`: I completely rewrote the state code, and fredrikh completely rewrote the graphics code since then. Before, it was a half-assed port of the Apple tree circa 2004. |
| 02:48 | <harri> | seeing independant tests being run certainly helps to become productive |
| 02:48 | <SadEagle> | Philip`: oh, BTW, do you have any tests that scale the canvas element with CSS? :-) |
| 02:48 | <SadEagle> | Philip`: I must thank you for the tests, BTW, they were a huge help in getting stuff working |
| 02:48 | <Philip`> | SadEagle: http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/size.attributes.style.html is the only one, and that doesn't test that the rendered output is correct |
| 02:49 | Philip` | isn't sure what else could be usefully tested for scaled canvases |
| 02:51 | <Philip`> | (I suppose http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/83/play.xhtml set to "Tiny" could count as a way of testing scaled canvases...) |
| 02:51 | <SadEagle> | Philip`: fredrikh noticed gtkwebkit wasn't scaling right when we were discussing some performance stuff |
| 03:00 | <SadEagle> | Philip`: may be canvas width = 50, height = 50, draw green rect with 0, 0, 50, 50 and scale with CSS to 100, 100? |
| 03:01 | <Philip`> | SadEagle: I've just tried that, and see the problem |
| 03:05 | <Philip`> | SadEagle: Added http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/2d.scaled.html (but not updated results.html because I'm lazy) |
| 03:06 | <SadEagle> | hrmhmh. when the heck did I break it? :-) |
| 03:07 | <Philip`> | Oh, I'd only tested in gtkwebkit and didn't realise it was broken elsewhere too |
| 03:08 | <SadEagle> | well, it's -supposed- to work in konq, but apparently doesn't. funny, since things are sort of designed to be able to handle this sort of setup |
| 03:08 | <Philip`> | At least in WebKit it does draw something |
| 03:09 | Philip` | needs to fix all the places where he's not correctly referencing the spec |
| 03:12 | <Philip`> | ...after fixing the places where I'm probably contradicting the spec |
| 03:12 | <Philip`> | (like I haven't looked at pattern transforms, and they're probably affected by recent changes) |
| 03:17 | <SadEagle> | hmm, much of the nodefilter/nodeiterator stuff in acid3 looks bogus to me |
| 03:22 | <takkaria> | SadEagle: so you're on the khtml team? |
| 03:26 | <SadEagle> | takkaria: yes. |
| 03:28 | <takkaria> | SadEagle: I'd read somewhere that some people just want to port back webkit as a kpart and dump khtml... I assume this isn't something you're planning on? I don't follow the community closely but would quite like links to somewhere where the situation regarding the forks is explained |
| 03:30 | <SadEagle> | takkaria: we might do a merge of webcore sources into khtml kpart. we might not. Some 3rd parties may ship a webkit kpart regardless of our opinion, however. |
| 03:30 | <SadEagle> | takkaria: let's just say that things got kinda ugly, and leave it at that. |
| 03:32 | <takkaria> | right, sounds like the kind of thing that's not easily summarised. thanks for your time. :) |
| 03:33 | <SadEagle> | thanks for asking. |
| 03:34 | <SadEagle> | it's kind of funny, though. One of the best reasons for using WebCore is that we have limited manpower. But it's also one of the reasons that makes using it very hard, since doing proper integration would be quite time/resource consuming, and we still have to maintain stuff, and fix bugs in the overall infrastructure. |
| 03:37 | <Philip`> | You could become an OS X user and then it wouldn't be a problem at all |
| 03:37 | <takkaria> | heh |
| 03:38 | <takkaria> | I know the kind of situation you're in, I have it in one of my projects, on significantly smaller scale |
| 03:43 | <fredrikh> | Philip`: indeed, thanks very much for those tests, and for including us in the results :) |
| 04:16 | <SadEagle> | Philip`: fun, your 2d.scaled works part of the time...something is not being marked dirty as it should be.. |
| 06:18 | <SadEagle> | Philip`: uff. fixed. thanks for that testcase, found some really stupid stuff due to it |
| 11:04 | <heycam`> | Hixie, shepazu was talking to you earlier about svg acid test submissions? it seems various svg dom method calls don't return anything useful when used on a document created by DOMImplementation.createDocument(). |
| 11:05 | <heycam`> | and while those calls should work, i think for the purpose of demonstrating the particular dom interfaces being tested, it'd be good to go the iframe route |
| 11:05 | <Hixie> | yeah, that's a bug |
| 11:05 | <heycam`> | i.e., could you include an <iframe> with an empty svg document? |
| 11:05 | <Hixie> | i think you misunderstand how acid tests work :-) |
| 11:05 | <Hixie> | the more broken things you rely on for the test, the better :-) |
| 11:05 | <heycam`> | heh |
| 11:06 | <heycam`> | so you'd rather a submission like that then? |
| 11:06 | <Hixie> | sure |
| 11:06 | <heycam`> | ok then |
| 11:06 | <Hixie> | i can always tweak it later if necessary |
| 11:06 | <heycam`> | righto |
| 11:07 | <heycam`> | (btw doug's gonna coordinate a few tests from us svg guys and send them in to you) |
| 11:07 | <Hixie> | it's so sad, i've received very few acid3 test submissions, and most of those that i have received have fundamentally missed at least one of the rules |
| 11:07 | <heycam`> | hmm |
| 11:07 | <Hixie> | (different rules each time) |
| 11:08 | <heycam`> | do you have enough for the 10 at least? :) |
| 11:08 | <Hixie> | not even close |
| 11:08 | <Hixie> | (and it's 16 :-( ) |
| 11:08 | <heycam`> | ah |
| 11:08 | <Hixie> | someone submitted 11 tests... for XMLHttpRequest |
| 11:08 | <Hixie> | which isn't even in LC yet |
| 11:08 | <heycam`> | :( |
| 11:08 | <Hixie> | let alone CR in 2004 |
| 11:09 | <heycam`> | i didn't have much time during the week, so i've really only been working on it the last few days |
| 11:09 | <heycam`> | so just one test from me |
| 11:09 | <Hixie> | every little bit helps :-) |
| 11:09 | heycam` | enjoys tests involving non plane 0 characters |
| 11:11 | <Hixie> | i got two tests from someone called Sylvain which look solid |
| 11:21 | <jwalden> | Hixie: think that's syp_, Sylvain Pasche |
| 11:22 | <Hixie> | yup |
| 11:22 | <harri> | Hixie: one question: do you expect the numbering of tests to remain stable? |
| 11:23 | jwalden | thought the numbering stable enough to remove the note from <http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pNgBCwWdyRTT2JeiZn4B2Yw>; |
| 11:23 | <harri> | I'm asking because I wonder whether it makes sense to refer to tests by number right now (when talking to other developers, noting down info) |
| 11:23 | <Hixie> | harri: not until the test is finished, no |
| 11:24 | <Hixie> | http://chanweiyee.blogspot.com/2008/01/removal-of-ogg-vorbis-and-theora-from.html is hilarious |
| 11:24 | <harri> | Hixie: ok. I'll refrain from adding comments to C++ then |
| 11:24 | <Hixie> | "Nokia and Apple have privately pushed to remove Ogg in HTML5." |
| 11:24 | <Hixie> | PRIVATELY? |
| 11:24 | <Hixie> | nokia published a position paper! |
| 11:24 | <Hixie> | how much more public can you get! |
| 11:24 | <Dashiva> | They didn't mail it to me! |
| 11:24 | <Hixie> | and then the change was twittered, e-mailed to TWO public lists, posted on slashdot, digg, and reddit! |
| 11:25 | <Hixie> | what more can i possibly do to make this public! |
| 11:27 | <Dashiva> | Door to door announcements |
| 11:27 | <heycam`> | Hixie, where's that test submission test page again? |
| 11:27 | <heycam`> | nm found it |
| 11:31 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I had a good WebKit-only CSS1 bug but hyatt went and fixed it |
| 11:31 | <othermaciej> | (granted, I goaded him into doing so) |
| 11:32 | <heycam`> | btw are we not meant to use those assertEquals() and assert() and fail() functions? they're not available from the test development console page. |
| 11:33 | <Hixie> | heycam`: that level of detail doesn't matter, i'll rewrite the tests to use those probably anyway |
| 11:33 | <Hixie> | nn |
| 12:18 | <webben> | Re: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jan/0143.html (required="false") attribute in ASP.net): it's also worth noting that the ARIA draft likewise uses required="false" (http://www.w3.org/TR/aria-state/#required) |
| 13:11 | <Richardigel> | hello! i love html5! used it already and tweaked my personal copy of squeak seaside to produce a flavor of html5 which currently works already with browsers. |
| 13:12 | <Richardigel> | i just would have wished the FORM section of html5 to have useful content. |
| 13:16 | <Philip`> | Richardigel: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/ is currently where the form things are |
| 13:21 | <zcorpan> | webben: that's aria-required="false" |
| 13:22 | <zcorpan> | the current aria drafts are wrong |
| 13:22 | <webben> | zcorpan: ah okay |
| 14:57 | <Richardigel> | did you know that logging and publishing the chat is legally dangerous? at least in German law, that is forbidden without permission of that ones that are being logged. |
| 17:10 | <Philip`> | I really wish I could say <select selected="b"><option value="a">A <option value="b">B ...</select> |
| 17:12 | Philip` | gives up wishing and writes ugly stuff like <option value="a"[% IF thing.value == "a" %] selected[% END %]> instead |
| 17:49 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fmxr.mozilla.org%2Fmozilla%2Fsource%2Fcontent%2Fcanvas%2Ftest%2Ftest_2d.composite.image.copy.html%3Fforce%3D1&showsource=yes fixed. thanks |
| 17:49 | <hsivonen> | (copypaste error) |
| 17:51 | <Richardigel> | wouldn't it be about time to take http://whattf.org/ off the net? |
| 17:52 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Thanks! |
| 17:52 | <hsivonen> | Richardigel: why? |
| 17:53 | <hsivonen> | the front page could use an update, though |
| 17:53 | <Richardigel> | hsivonen: the joke's getting old. |
| 17:54 | <Dashiva> | It's new to people who haven't seen it before :) |
| 17:55 | <Richardigel> | right. |
| 18:11 | <hsivonen> | hmm. http://validator.w3.org/mobile/alpha?docAddr=http%3A%2F%2Fvalidator.nu%2F |
| 18:28 | <Dashiva> | First they say there's no doctype, and then they start reporting HTML errors anyway |
| 19:40 | <Philip`> | http://validator.w3.org/mobile/alpha?docAddr=http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/83/play.xhtml - it doesn't seem to mind me using <canvas> |
| 19:58 | <SadEagle> | Philip`: thanks again for that scale testcase, if you didn't see my previous thanks in the backlog |
| 20:48 | <Philip`> | SadEagle: Let me know if you have other bugs that could be tested for easily :-) |
| 21:11 | <harri> | Philip`: you had problems with the realiability for downloading pages with konqueror? |
| 21:20 | <Philip`> | harri: I think the only problem was that it tried downloading dozens of iframes at once, and the web server didn't like that and returned errors |
| 21:25 | <SadEagle> | harri: we have a problem in that if we don't know the mimetype (some objects, all iframes), we start a new KRun to get it... Which on a testcase page can result in 100s of connections |
| 21:53 | Philip` | wonders if there are any known problems in existing browsers with nested <form>s |
| 21:53 | <Philip`> | (when they're created via DOM manipulation, rather than through the HTML parser) |
| 21:53 | <Philip`> | (Some minimal tests seem to work in IE6/FF2/O9, at least) |
| 22:29 | <annevk> | Philip`, using XML might be more easier |
| 22:33 | <Philip`> | annevk: Not when I need to work in IE6 |
| 22:33 | <annevk> | good point |
| 22:48 | <gsnedders> | RFC: http://pastebin.ca/866821 |
| 22:50 | <SadEagle> | gsnedders: is #25 missing a "not"? |
| 23:08 | <annevk> | is now the right time to drag that up again? |
| 23:09 | <SadEagle> | and yeah, I am not sure it'll do any good. |
| 23:11 | <annevk> | SadEagle, how exactly is KHTML different from WebCore at this point? |
| 23:12 | <Philip`> | Parse error at line 28: Expected ), got EOF |
| 23:12 | annevk | actually thought KHTML was no longer maintained |
| 23:12 | <SadEagle> | annevk: very. I can't really say more in an accurate way. |
| 23:12 | <SadEagle> | annevk: that's false. |
| 23:12 | <annevk> | SadEagle, ok |
| 23:12 | <SadEagle> | (but I don't blame you for being mistaken) |
| 23:13 | <annevk> | so that makes 5 relatively mature rendering engines, nice |
| 23:13 | <annevk> | well, mature and maintained |
| 23:14 | <Philip`> | Shouldn't IE count as several? |
| 23:14 | <annevk> | the engine iCab had was also pretty good |
| 23:14 | <annevk> | Philip`, :( |
| 23:14 | <SadEagle> | well, it is more like 4.5, and we are certainly less likely to provide big features, unless we just lift them off Apple, which is still possible. |
| 23:16 | <annevk> | with not providing "big features" you mean not keeping up with the rest or not having lots of time to innovate yourselves? |
| 23:17 | <SadEagle> | I mean stuff like local DB, etc. I don't think we're really interested in innovating stuff, since realistically no one will use any extensions if we fell like inventing them. |
| 23:17 | <SadEagle> | I think you Opera folks should have a good idea of that... Well, I've certainly considered ripping off the browser JavaScript idea :-) |
| 23:22 | <Philip`> | You can innovate extensions then promote them as standards and have other browsers implement them and then people will start using the extensions and you'll already support them :-) |
| 23:23 | <SadEagle> | Philip`: you need spare manpower for that, though. And you need to be able to deal with stuff suddenly breaking, like IIRC it did on some sites for Opera due to WebForms 2.0 |
| 23:24 | <annevk> | yeah, WF2 causes issues now and then |
| 23:25 | <Philip`> | It's best if those issues get discovered in browsers with very few users, so the specs can be fixed before anyone else is affected ;-) |
| 23:26 | <Ketsuban> | Bah, I want to install Konqueror so I can test my site design in it, but konqueror drags half of KDE kicking and screaming with it due to some really insane dependencies. konqueror-kde4 seems more well-behaved, but there's a disturbing amount of "core libraries" and other worrying-sounding packages which make me wonder if it's just the same as with konqueror, only the packages are divided up differently. |
| 23:27 | <SadEagle> | Ketsuban: you only need kdelibs and parts of kdebase. |
| 23:27 | <SadEagle> | though you probably want to lay off testing until 4.0.1 :-) |
| 23:28 | <SadEagle> | Philip`: the #1 issue any browser with small market share has is the user agent string. |
| 23:28 | <annevk> | Philip`, a major browser would simply get sites changed |
| 23:28 | <SadEagle> | .. as well as the minor browsers. |
| 23:30 | <Ketsuban> | SadEagle: Unless you can test for me. I don't plan on making any changes if it renders incorrectly, but I'm curious to know if it works. :P |
| 23:30 | <SadEagle> | Ketsuban: fair enough. I might throw the book at you, though :-) |
| 23:30 | <Ketsuban> | I'd like to test with Safari too, but I'm allergic to Macs. |
| 23:31 | <SadEagle> | Supposedly win Safari runs under Wine |
| 23:31 | Philip` | can confirm that Safari works in Wine |
| 23:31 | <Philip`> | Something like http://browsershots.org/ might be useful for testing certain browser versions |
| 23:33 | <Philip`> | (Also, if you're allergic to Macs but not to Windows then you could just run Safari in Windows properly) |
| 23:33 | <Ketsuban> | At any rate: http://ketsuban.cleverpun.com/testing/blogdesign/index.html is the page to test. I know it works in Opera 9.5 weeklies, Firefox 2 and IE7, it "works" in Opera 9.25 (there's a bug regarding sizing with ems which I could work around with JavaScript, but an't willing to do) and doesn't work in IE6 or below (for which I have provided a slightly-snarky message telling people to upgrade to IE7). |
| 23:34 | <othermaciej> | whether UA checks are a problem depends on the type of site |
| 23:34 | <othermaciej> | unfortunately, fancy advanced "web app" type sites are the most likely to completely lock you out based on UA string |
| 23:34 | <othermaciej> | or otherwise rely on UA testing in a bad way |
| 23:35 | <SadEagle> | Ketsuban: looks fine, in both 3.5.something and 4.0.1-pre. Except it doesn't look so hot at 1024x768 |
| 23:35 | <Ketsuban> | Normally if I'm working on a site design I'll write it in a compliant browser (generally I'll start off with Firefox, then make sure it works in standards-compliant browsers by testing in Opera) and then provide fixes for IE using conditional comments. |
| 23:35 | <Philip`> | Fancy advanced "web app" types sites are the most likely to do X, for any action X :-) |
| 23:36 | <Ketsuban> | SadEagle: Yeah, one thing I'm going to do is take out the 200px left margin - that's a relic from when I had an image there I wanted to show through. :P |
| 23:36 | <Philip`> | Unfortunately Firefox and Opera aren't standards-compliant :-p |
| 23:36 | <SadEagle> | othermaciej: jquery 1.2.something used to crash on its browser check is the browser wasn't one in a certain set of 4. |
| 23:36 | <othermaciej> | a certain Major Web App Vendor has code in many of their web apps that test if you have certain combinations of methods and properties available on the DOM Element and Document interfaces, and if so assumes what browser you are, and then makes completely unrelated assumptions |
| 23:36 | <othermaciej> | because their experts on the matter told them not to test the UA string |
| 23:37 | <othermaciej> | so they ended up finding a way to do it even worse |
| 23:37 | <SadEagle> | heh. browser fingerprinting is a fun topic, though. |
| 23:37 | <othermaciej> | (we found out because in Safari we fixed what methods were on Document and Element to better match other browsers, and they no longer detected us as Safari) |
| 23:37 | <othermaciej> | (so they started using Firefox designMode hacks instead of contentEditable for editing) |
| 23:40 | <annevk> | I wonder what contenteditable quirks Firefox 3 will introduce |
| 23:41 | <SadEagle> | so othermaciej, are you awake enough to talk about the quirks in handling of Cf characters? :-) |
| 23:41 | <Ketsuban> | SadEagle: Would you prefer centred or left-aligned? I slightly prefer centred, but left-aligned may well work better at 1024x768. |
| 23:41 | <othermaciej> | SadEagle: we just don't do Cf dropping at all - we used to but it caused web compat problems with Firefox and IE |
| 23:41 | <othermaciej> | that's all I remember |
| 23:41 | <SadEagle> | Ketsuban: I have no artistic taste :-) |
| 23:41 | <othermaciej> | if BOMs are dropped it's probably at another level (text decoding or something) |
| 23:42 | <SadEagle> | othermaciej: well, the point is that Mozilla drops -some- Cf's. (Not the soft-hyphen). It also handles zero-width space as a space... |
| 23:42 | <othermaciej> | I don't know how exhaustively we match all their quirks |
| 23:43 | <SadEagle> | othermaciej: IE handles the BOM at whitespace, drops the inverse BOM at the beginning of the file, and has totally weird behavior in ~4 other characters, which is appears to permit in identifiers in some spots(?) |
| 23:44 | <SadEagle> | othermaciej: I don't see anything like that in your version of Lexer.cpp.... |
| 23:44 | <othermaciej> | SadEagle: I don't think we do either of those sets of quirks |
| 23:45 | <othermaciej> | if you have a particular site breaking I can try it and see if I can figure out why/whether it works |
| 23:45 | <SadEagle> | tvguide.com :-) |
| 23:45 | <othermaciej> | I would guess our text codecs drop stray BOMs |
| 23:45 | <SadEagle> | probably. /me tries the testcase in Opera. |
| 23:45 | <SadEagle> | othermaciej: my tendency is probably just to handle it as whitespace, and not worry much unless something comes up. |
| 23:46 | <othermaciej> | I think soft hyphen may be the only case we ran into where folowing the spec caused a real compat ssue |
| 23:48 | <SadEagle> | heh, and Opera 9.24 does something entirely different :-) |
| 23:48 | <annevk> | I think BOM as whitespace char is part of ES4 |
| 23:52 | <SadEagle> | Opera9.24 seem to handle Cf as identifier characters, except leading BOMs are stripped, and ZWSP is stripped in some contexts(?) |
| 23:54 | <SadEagle> | Philip`: see, you're right, nothing is standards compliant. JSC tried following ES3, and it broke a website :-) |