| 00:01 | <hubick> | or am I expected to fallback to regular old HTML and not XHTML, if there is no Accept: application/xhtml+xml? |
| 00:02 | <Hixie> | for now i'd just use <div class="header">. |
| 00:02 | <hubick> | (also, I don't see this answered in the FAQ, which I would think it must be one) |
| 00:03 | <annevk> | feel free to add questions to the faq where the answer is "..." |
| 00:03 | <annevk> | as far as detecting HTML5 support, there's not really such a thing |
| 00:04 | <annevk> | the Web evolves incrementally |
| 00:04 | <hubick> | Hixie: I am trying to be forward looking and code in XHTML5 support to my software today, with a property to disable it. |
| 00:04 | <annevk> | anyway, bedtime |
| 00:04 | <annevk> | g'night all |
| 00:04 | <hubick> | I guess it will need to be a property for the whole server, not based on user agent |
| 00:04 | <hubick> | annevk: gnight, thanks for your advice |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | i really think SOMEONE on slashdot has a think for henri |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=426306&cid=22165240 |
| 01:24 | <jwalden> | yeah, that Henri Sovinen dude |
| 01:27 | Hixie | blinks at the current svg discussion on whatwg |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | sure which i understood what people were talking about |
| 03:19 | heycam | is hungry at the thought of a "laughing stock of tag soup" (from that slashdot comment) |
| 03:22 | <Hixie> | someone just pointed me to a blog post by anne in 2006 as an argument for why application/javascript is better than text/javascript |
| 03:22 | <Hixie> | since when can anne be used to appeal to authority over me :-P |
| 03:29 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: you need to remind him of his official Mindless Hixie Minion agreement |
| 03:29 | <othermaciej> | heycam: I prefer a chicken stock |
| 03:29 | <othermaciej> | or beef stock |
| 03:29 | <othermaciej> | I don't think laughing stock makes very good soup |
| 03:29 | <heycam> | :) |
| 04:40 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - minor suggested edit to text you added in latest checkin |
| 04:41 | <Hixie> | yeah? |
| 04:41 | <MikeSmith> | "Zero length line segments" might better be "Zero-length line segments" |
| 04:41 | <Hixie> | good call |
| 04:43 | <jwalden> | Hixie: quick question about event.uri for a message posted from a data: page -- is the property based on the page that opened the data: page, or is it the data: URL? former seems better for compat with how about:blank is handled, for what it's worth |
| 04:43 | <Hixie> | i have no idea, i don't think i ever considered posting from a data: page when writing this part of the spec |
| 04:44 | <jwalden> | okay |
| 04:44 | <jwalden> | I shall boldly forge a path through this insanity! |
| 04:44 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 04:44 | <Hixie> | please do mail the list with your conclusions :-) |
| 04:44 | <jwalden> | and unilaterally make it act like about:blank does |
| 04:44 | <jwalden> | yes |
| 04:44 | <jwalden> | I'll have a nice tidy set of testcases to post at that point as well |
| 04:45 | <jwalden> | just trying to fight through the review process now before posting the full set, which is always fun (more than triply so at this point in the release cycle) |
| 04:47 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 04:49 | <othermaciej> | jwalden: data: pages don't normally get the security domain of their opener in most contexts |
| 04:49 | <othermaciej> | at least in Firefox and Mozilla |
| 04:49 | <othermaciej> | er |
| 04:50 | <othermaciej> | in Firefox and Safari |
| 04:50 | <othermaciej> | (or Gecko and WebKit if you prefer) |
| 04:51 | <jwalden> | othermaciej: not in webkit, but in Gecko a data page can do whatever its opener's domain can do |
| 04:51 | <jwalden> | opener, parent |
| 04:51 | <othermaciej> | jwalden: are you sure? |
| 04:51 | <othermaciej> | jwalden: they used to have no privileges at all |
| 04:51 | <othermaciej> | did this change recently? |
| 04:54 | <othermaciej> | (my last info on this is an email from Boris Zbarsky from October of last year, I guess I can make a test case) |
| 04:56 | <jwalden> | pretty sure it's always been that way |
| 04:56 | <othermaciej> | I remember specifically reading a mozilla bugzilla bug saying that all access to/from data: was disallowed |
| 04:56 | <jwalden> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=255107 |
| 04:56 | <othermaciej> | (because it's more complicated to deal with than about:blank) |
| 04:56 | <jwalden> | ^ wants to make it more complicated, but hasn't |
| 04:58 | <othermaciej> | I see, I misremembered |
| 04:58 | <othermaciej> | so yeah, if data: URIs have their opener's principal |
| 04:59 | <othermaciej> | then either you have to define opener differently than for about:blank (where it's the window.open sense opener or the parent frame always), and instead track which frame triggered opening the data: URL even for things like targeted links, or a frame self-navigating to a data: URL if it has a parent or opener.... |
| 04:59 | <othermaciej> | or you have to disallow navigation of a frame that is or would be in a different security domain to a data: URL if you follow the about:blank / javascript: rule |
| 05:00 | <othermaciej> | either of these is pretty tricky to get right (either way it has to be somewhat more restrictive than javascipt: URLs) |
| 05:03 | <othermaciej> | (in other words, for data: URIs the origin has to be the origin of the Referer (in the http sense) which we don't currently have a good way to track |
| 05:03 | <othermaciej> | (it might not be derivable just from the Referer URI, imagine a site at example.org with an about:blank frame containing a data: frame) |
| 05:04 | <othermaciej> | it seems that Firefox's current behavior allows XSS exploits, if I understand it correctly |
| 05:05 | <othermaciej> | if you can get a site to embed you as a subframe and navigate yourself to a data: URI for instance |
| 05:05 | <jwalden> | yeah |
| 05:05 | <jwalden> | I kind of agree; I don't know if it'll change, tho |
| 05:05 | <othermaciej> | that means an ad in an iframe can always xss exploit its containing document in Firefox |
| 05:06 | <othermaciej> | (of course ads that are served as a JS script you embed can exploit you even esier but still, this kills iframe as a way to mitigate) |
| 05:07 | <jwalden> | anyway... |
| 05:07 | <jwalden> | for now I think I'll go with the uri/domain of the parent/opener |
| 05:07 | <jwalden> | and I think with the methods I'm using, if we change how data: works that'll change too |
| 05:08 | <jwalden> | in any case, this isn't likely to be a huge use case, so if we change it later I don't think it's going to be a big problem |
| 05:20 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - what's the relationship between the "source" and "index" files for the spec. Is the index file generated from source + header-whatwg ? it seems like not completely at least, because I notice that there are sometimes comments in the index file that aren't in the source file.. |
| 08:21 | <hsivonen> | Whoa! iCab has dropped legacy OS support! |
| 08:23 | <othermaciej> | and, more significantly, their engine |
| 08:26 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: WebKit now? |
| 08:26 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: that appears to be the case |
| 08:27 | <hsivonen> | interesting |
| 08:30 | <othermaciej> | the number of WebKit-based browsers is reaching crazy levels |
| 08:30 | <othermaciej> | (though I'm not sure how many could truly be considered polished products just yet, especially ones on non-Mac platforms) |
| 08:32 | <hsivonen> | I just discovered that iCab 3 has at least a standards mode and a quirks mode |
| 08:33 | <othermaciej> | I think WebKit can take credit for having killed at least 4 layout engines now |
| 08:33 | <hsivonen> | and if it does have an almost standards mode, it is different from Gecko/WebKit/Opera |
| 08:34 | <hsivonen> | iCab, Nokia in-house, Tasman and ? |
| 08:34 | <othermaciej> | I wasn't even counting the Nokia one - I'm not sure if that is totally abandoned but I guess so |
| 08:34 | <othermaciej> | other ones were Apple's old htmldisplay framework (now not in the OS any more) and OmniWeb's old engine |
| 08:35 | <hsivonen> | ok. |
| 08:35 | <hsivonen> | I had forgetten about the old OmniWeb engine |
| 08:35 | <othermaciej> | that was actually our first (and entirely unintentional) non-Apple design win |
| 08:36 | <hsivonen> | it sure was legacy. and, yet, Mac users like Cocoa so much that there was pressure on Mac-related sites to support it |
| 08:36 | <othermaciej> | (so to speak - we're not exactly doing CFPs or anything) |
| 08:36 | <othermaciej> | it had many problems but at the time was the only engine to do high-quality text rendering on OS X |
| 08:38 | <MikeSmith> | kind of sad to see the iCab engine go |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | I was always kind of amazed at that guy |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | it's always been a one-man project, right? |
| 08:39 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: IIRC, the JS engine was written by another guy |
| 08:40 | <MikeSmith> | ah, OK. well still pretty commendable for one guy to produce a web engine of that level |
| 08:40 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., able to pass ACID2 |
| 08:40 | <hsivonen> | yes |
| 08:41 | <MikeSmith> | I paid the iCab license fee.. can't remember how much it was, but very little 20 USD or something I think |
| 08:41 | <hsivonen> | hmm. HTML5 doctype is quirks in iCab 3.0.3 |
| 08:43 | <othermaciej> | I have bittersweet feelings about most of WebKit's layout engine victims |
| 08:43 | <othermaciej> | (not htmldisplay though, that was just total crap) |
| 08:43 | <othermaciej> | even Tasman was a very nice engine for its day and quite good on standards compliance, compared to Trident |
| 08:44 | <hsivonen> | Tasman certainly had a lot of potential |
| 08:44 | <hsivonen> | IIRC, Tantek had something about a win32 port on his resume |
| 08:45 | <MikeSmith> | Tasman was the first to implement full support for CSS1, right? |
| 08:45 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: yes |
| 08:45 | <othermaciej> | I wonder if the next few years will see any significant new entrants to either browser or engine markets |
| 08:46 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej - would bet probably not new engines, given the amount of work involved |
| 08:46 | <MikeSmith> | if anything, maybe only on mobile |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | there's a browser that runs on Docomo handsets here in Japan |
| 08:47 | <othermaciej> | it would be hard to launch a new open source one |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | Picsel |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, I don't reckon we are going to see a new open source one |
| 08:47 | <othermaciej> | and few companies have both the means and the resources to do a new proprietary one |
| 08:47 | <MikeSmith> | I know Netsurf project is still going |
| 08:48 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej - yeah, question is what value it would be for them to build a whole new engine |
| 08:48 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: is Picsel's browser developed in-house or based on something better-known? |
| 08:48 | <hsivonen> | is it good? |
| 08:49 | <MikeSmith> | I haven't tested Picsel so much, but it has a very good UI, developed in-house. I don't know about their engine for sure, but I think it was developed in-house as well |
| 08:50 | <MikeSmith> | there is a handset here in Japan -- a true mobile phone, with keypad -- that has an actual pointing device on it |
| 08:51 | <MikeSmith> | like an IBM trackpoint |
| 08:51 | <MikeSmith> | instead of 5-way arrow-key thing |
| 08:51 | <MikeSmith> | Picsel runs on that handset |
| 08:51 | <MikeSmith> | so the browser UI on that has a cursor |
| 08:52 | <hsivonen> | it seems that Picsel isn't for end users to install but something that is sold for bundling with a handset |
| 08:52 | <hsivonen> | right? |
| 08:52 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 08:52 | <hsivonen> | who ships it? Panasonic? |
| 08:52 | <MikeSmith> | here in Japan, NEC |
| 08:52 | <MikeSmith> | not sure which others, if any |
| 08:52 | <MikeSmith> | I know a couple of developers who work at the Picsel office here |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | in Tokyo |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, that's only "new" browser for mobile that's come along recently that I know of |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | well, with exception of Java ones |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | J2ME ones, like Opera Mini |
| 08:54 | <hsivonen> | I don't recall ever noticing anyone from Picsel in a W3C or WHATWG context |
| 08:54 | <MikeSmith> | which all rely on proxies on the server side to do the rendering |
| 08:54 | <hsivonen> | oh, are there others than Opera Mini in the Opera Mini product category? |
| 08:54 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - yeah, they've not been involved |
| 08:54 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - yeah |
| 08:55 | <MikeSmith> | one here in Japan called "Jig" |
| 08:55 | <hsivonen> | ok. Japan-only? |
| 08:55 | <MikeSmith> | I think it may be downloadable |
| 08:55 | <MikeSmith> | for J2ME |
| 08:55 | <MikeSmith> | super-fast scrolling behavior in that thing |
| 08:56 | <MikeSmith> | and Bitstream makes a browser too |
| 08:56 | <MikeSmith> | Thunderhawk |
| 08:57 | <hsivonen> | interesting |
| 08:57 | <MikeSmith> | proxied system like Opera Mini |
| 08:57 | <MikeSmith> | in fact, I reckon we probably will see more of those |
| 08:57 | <MikeSmith> | along with Opera Mini, Jig, Thunderhaw, I mean |
| 08:58 | <othermaciej> | I think in a few years (max 5) even basic feature-phone hardware will have as much power as today's iPhone |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 08:59 | <MikeSmith> | that is the way we are headed |
| 09:00 | <MikeSmith> | btw, here's a page with info about some mobile browsers, including Japan-specific ones |
| 09:00 | <MikeSmith> | http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/フルブラウザ |
| 09:00 | <MikeSmith> | "full browser" is the name of the article |
| 09:02 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: is it known what those non-Opera J2ME offering use as their engines on the server? |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | this page has good info too |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbrowser |
| 09:02 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: in the subversion repo, you mean? |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - yeah |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - Thunderhawk and Jig both use engines they have developed in-house |
| 09:04 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: source is a snapshot of the file i edit |
| 09:04 | MikeSmith | nods |
| 09:04 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: and index is header-whatwg + source after going through several preprocessors |
| 09:04 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: ok. I find it interesting that there are developers of full browser engines that don't send a rep to the HTML WG. |
| 09:05 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - that's not for lack of my trying to get them involved |
| 09:05 | <Hixie> | i've often wondered why the smaller browser and AT vendors aren't more active in the w3c and other standards forums |
| 09:05 | <MikeSmith> | s/of my/of me/ |
| 09:05 | <Hixie> | it's not like they haven't been invited many times by many people |
| 09:05 | <hsivonen> | I didn't doubt invitations |
| 09:05 | <MikeSmith> | yep. I think the main reason is lack of people |
| 09:06 | <MikeSmith> | qualified people who have the time |
| 09:06 | <Hixie> | it doesn't take much to at least pay attention |
| 09:06 | <MikeSmith> | true |
| 09:06 | <Hixie> | and the cost has to be far outweighed by the benefits |
| 09:06 | <MikeSmith> | I need to try harder to get the in, I guess |
| 09:06 | <MikeSmith> | I spent a lot of time at it when the HTML WG was first formed |
| 09:07 | <Hixie> | well at some point you have to just figure that they don't care and screw 'em, imho |
| 09:07 | <MikeSmith> | even before I was the team contact for the group |
| 09:08 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - yeah, that's kind of what ended up happening -- not exactly screw 'em, but at least thinking, maybe this ain't paying off for the time I'm putting into it |
| 09:08 | <MikeSmith> | but with the FPWD publication, maybe a good opportunity to try again |
| 09:08 | <MikeSmith> | btw, Christian Sejersen from Mozilla mobile team is a member of the HTML WG |
| 09:08 | <Hixie> | i think we have enough people involved now that i can honestly say that they'd benefit more from taking part than we would from their taking part |
| 09:09 | <Hixie> | which is why i don't understand why they don't take part, given how much we have invited everyone |
| 09:09 | <Hixie> | anyway |
| 09:09 | <MikeSmith> | certainly would be to their big benefit to be paying attention |
| 09:09 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - the thing that confused me about index and source is the comments |
| 09:09 | <MikeSmith> | comments that are in index but not in source |
| 09:10 | <Hixie> | ~like what? |
| 09:12 | <othermaciej> | it's pretty hard to even get the people at major browser vendors really actively engaged |
| 09:12 | <othermaciej> | (in fact, among Microsoft, Mozilla, Apple and Opera, degree of active HTML5 standards engagement seems inversely proportional to market share) |
| 09:12 | <Hixie> | that makes sense |
| 09:12 | <Hixie> | you benefit more from standards if you are a small player |
| 09:13 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - hang on, let me find the diff I was looking at |
| 09:13 | <othermaciej> | but there's a cliff at Opera |
| 09:13 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 09:13 | <Hixie> | it's od |
| 09:13 | <othermaciej> | I think players below that are just too small to play |
| 09:13 | <Hixie> | i also don't understand why, apart from google, and aol -- but only in css really -- the big publishers don't seem to take part either |
| 09:16 | <MikeSmith> | http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2008/000369.html |
| 09:16 | <MikeSmith> | r1170 |
| 09:16 | <MikeSmith> | oops |
| 09:16 | <MikeSmith> | um, er, ignore me |
| 09:16 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 09:16 | <MikeSmith> | I see it's in the source... |
| 09:16 | <MikeSmith> | too many nights without much sleep recently |
| 09:18 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - last brilliant question/suggestion I will offer for today |
| 09:18 | <MikeSmith> | this one: |
| 09:18 | <MikeSmith> | might be good to have an ID on the list of doctypes for quirks mode |
| 09:18 | <MikeSmith> | in the spec |
| 09:18 | <MikeSmith> | that is the list in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#tree-construction0 |
| 09:18 | <othermaciej> | I would expect Yahoo to participate |
| 09:19 | <othermaciej> | but some of it could be quirky interests of their self-proclaimed standards experts |
| 09:19 | <othermaciej> | Yahoo is active in ECMAScript standardization |
| 09:19 | <othermaciej> | (though in a somewhat unusual way) |
| 09:20 | <MikeSmith> | I really don't understand why Yahoo doesn't participate more |
| 09:22 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: yeah, i should do that |
| 09:22 | <othermaciej> | Doug thinks JavaScript is the source of, and solution to, all Web problems |
| 09:23 | <othermaciej> | I blew people's minds today when I pointed out that a "secure JavaScript" dialect for in-page embeddable widgets would do no good without a restricted DOM design |
| 09:23 | <othermaciej> | (which is incredibly hard) |
| 09:24 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - reason I suggested it was just because I had been planning to write a blog entry about "HTML5, IE8, doctype switching, and version targeting" |
| 09:24 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: all the cool kids are doing it |
| 09:24 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 09:24 | <Hixie> | i have added an id |
| 09:24 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - thanks |
| 09:26 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej - passé now to that all the cool kids have had their say |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | but maybe still useful to let people know that doctype switching is part of the spec |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | and that it's a mechanism meant to work in standard way across browsers |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | not targeting any specific browser or version |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | etc. |
| 09:28 | <othermaciej> | MikeSmith: seems like a good thing to mention |
| 09:28 | <MikeSmith> | well, I'll try to get it written up on W3C Q&A blog today |
| 09:29 | MikeSmith | stumbles upon http://www.winningsolutionsinc.com/services/webDesign/w3cInformation.asp?gclid=CObbg5OJkZECFQZLbwodry3_Pw |
| 09:29 | <MikeSmith> | speaking of participation... |
| 09:29 | <MikeSmith> | "Winning Solutions, Inc. (WSI) has been actively involved in keeping up to date on the standards provided by The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). " |
| 09:30 | <MikeSmith> | they sell services for making your site "W3C compliant" |
| 09:30 | <MikeSmith> | "Professional W3C compliance for your site on time and budget." |
| 09:31 | <MikeSmith> | "actively inolved in keeping up to date on standards" is any interesting turn of phrse |
| 09:31 | <MikeSmith> | phrase |
| 09:32 | <MikeSmith> | If you can't be troubled to getting actively involved in actual work on standards, at least you can get actively involved in keeping up to date on them. |
| 09:43 | <hendry> | tbh, i find it a little hard to stay on top of stuff |
| 10:03 | <MikeSmith> | hendry - hard to do that and also get other work done, I guess |
| 10:04 | <hendry> | MikeSmith: yes, i'm busy with webvm. you'll be at 3GSM btw? |
| 10:06 | <MikeSmith> | nope. would be nice to be in Barcelona at that time instead of hanging out at home, but can't justify taking time out to go there |
| 10:06 | <MikeSmith> | I was there for the whole event last year |
| 10:07 | <MikeSmith> | at the W3C boot |
| 10:07 | <MikeSmith> | booth |
| 10:07 | <MikeSmith> | and walking around |
| 10:07 | <MikeSmith> | talking to everybody |
| 10:07 | <MikeSmith> | Opera and Trolltech had been booth areas right next to each other |
| 10:07 | <MikeSmith> | overall, it was pretty exhausting |
| 10:08 | <MikeSmith> | lots of mobile-porn companies there, though |
| 10:08 | <MikeSmith> | so that was a plus |
| 10:08 | <hendry> | MikeSmith: i'm not sure about going myself |
| 10:08 | <hendry> | i think i might be too exhausted by then ;) |
| 10:08 | <MikeSmith> | W3C MWI folks will be there |
| 10:09 | <MikeSmith> | W3C team plus many folks from W3C member orgs that will be exhibiting there |
| 10:10 | <MikeSmith> | I do have to say there's all kinds of really cool products/technologies to see there |
| 10:10 | <MikeSmith> | always some big announcements of course |
| 10:28 | <MikeSmith> | anybody submit proposals for XTech 2008? |
| 10:28 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen ? |
| 10:29 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I didn't |
| 10:29 | <MikeSmith> | me neither |
| 10:30 | <hsivonen> | hmm. in the wake of the IE8 meta thing, perhaps I should blog about bug 42525, the Almost Standards Mode and lessons learned |
| 10:30 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - that would be very good I think |
| 10:31 | <MikeSmith> | karl pointed out Eric Meyer's latest entry related to this, but I haven't read it yet |
| 10:31 | <MikeSmith> | skimmed through it |
| 10:31 | <MikeSmith> | I think he tries to present a bit of the history in that |
| 10:31 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: my comment there is the short version of what I think |
| 10:33 | MikeSmith | goes over to read hsivonen comment |
| 10:33 | <om_sleep> | in retrospect it would have been better than CSS |
| 10:34 | <othermaciej> | the world is not really a better place on account of CSS image alignment changing in standards mode |
| 10:34 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - so you already have most of your blog posting already written :) |
| 10:35 | <MikeSmith> | copy and paste your comment there |
| 10:35 | <othermaciej> | incidentally Almost Standards Mode is pretty distinguishable from IE versioning (even though I resent having the extra mode) |
| 10:35 | <othermaciej> | because it's a selective quirk |
| 10:35 | <othermaciej> | not a whole frozen engine |
| 10:35 | <othermaciej> | the web would be a different place if Mozilla's quirks mode and almost standards mode were based on frozen Netscape 4 and Netscape 5 behaviors |
| 10:36 | <MikeSmith> | re: thacker comment "When a course correction is required, do you maneuver the ship or try to move the ocean?", I think the correct answer is, Sink the ship before it leaves the harbor. |
| 10:37 | <othermaciej> | in fact that's roc's first comment |
| 10:37 | <othermaciej> | that roc is a smart guy |
| 10:46 | <othermaciej> | in fact hsivonen and roc between them (and Rijk by reference) said exactly what I think about the story |
| 11:28 | <ed_work> | Hixie: test #70 in acid3, slightly incorrect error message: if (!kungFuDeathGrip.firstChild.getSVGDocument) fail("getSVGDocument missing on <object> element."); |
| 11:29 | <ed_work> | should be <iframe> there |
| 11:30 | <ed_work> | not sure about if you can modify content of a data URI document either... |
| 11:30 | <ed_work> | should that work? |
| 12:48 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, where is that comment? |
| 13:04 | <annevk> | ooh, dirac is still alive |
| 13:18 | <Lachy> | annevk, what's happening with dirac? link? |
| 13:19 | <annevk> | http://sonofid.blogspot.com/2008/01/on-road-to-dirac-standard-at-last.html |
| 13:20 | <Lachy> | nice. Maybe there's hope for a decent basline video codec in HTML5 after all :-) |
| 13:21 | <hsivonen> | standardization doesn't mean it will really be unencumbered, though |
| 13:22 | <Lachy> | if there's enough support behind it from large enough organisations, the perceived risk is lower |
| 13:22 | <Lachy> | gotta go |
| 13:22 | <annevk> | that blog post claims it's RF |
| 13:22 | <annevk> | but yeah |
| 13:24 | <annevk> | ok, it was about http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/ |
| 13:29 | <Camaban> | my feeling about that blog post from meyer is that the web is a bit different now than it was in 2002 |
| 13:30 | <hsivonen> | Camaban: indeed. see also http://hsivonen.iki.fi/almost-precedent/ |
| 13:30 | <annevk> | it's such a crappy comparison too |
| 13:30 | <annevk> | <canvas> works in almost standards mode |
| 13:30 | <annevk> | <canvas> would never work in IE7 mode |
| 13:30 | <annevk> | (per current proposal) |
| 13:31 | <Camaban> | in 2002 NS was dying out and IE was the only other browser with any significant market share wasn't it? |
| 13:31 | <hsivonen> | Camaban: yes |
| 13:33 | <Camaban> | little different to the landscape now with FF alreayd forcing MS to restart dev on IE, and Opera and Safari biting at their heals as well, now it's more of a case of people saying "it works in every other browser, but not IE, why?" |
| 13:35 | Camaban | goes to read almost precident |
| 13:36 | <Camaban> | sorry, but I have to lol a bit at the domain that was going to break :) |
| 13:42 | <hsivonen> | Camaban: do you mean apple.com or the site Eric was referring to? |
| 13:43 | <Camaban> | apple.com |
| 13:43 | <Camaban> | when you talk about big sites breaking, that's pretty well up there |
| 13:43 | <Camaban> | but also slightly ironic with Apple's "easier to use" line |
| 13:45 | <Camaban> | hsivonen: I assume form that comment that the example you used, and the example Eric used are different cases? |
| 13:45 | <Camaban> | *from |
| 13:45 | <hsivonen> | Camaban: that's my understanding, yes. |
| 13:46 | <Camaban> | ok, wasn't terribly clear, though if you're on about 2000, and Eric's on about 2002, I guess chances are they are different |
| 13:51 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - yeah the http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/ article |
| 13:51 | <annevk> | ok, posted my own thoughts and linked hsivonen |
| 13:53 | <MikeSmith> | about Diracd and the codec issue, I think the point that mikko and/or others have made about video in browsers on mobile devices is going to remain important |
| 13:53 | <MikeSmith> | that is, that the codec needs to be supported at the hardware level on those devices |
| 13:54 | <MikeSmith> | in order to provide a usable level of performance |
| 13:54 | <annevk> | solving problems takes time, sure :) |
| 13:55 | gsnedders | needs to write his own thoughts about the issue |
| 13:56 | <hsivonen> | annevk: thanks for linkage |
| 14:00 | <annevk> | given how the various doctype sniffing scenarios could've turned out the current one as specced in html5 isn't so bad |
| 14:00 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - did you submit any proposals for Xtech 2008 |
| 14:01 | <annevk> | have not |
| 14:01 | <annevk> | wasn't aware that it is that time again |
| 14:01 | <MikeSmith> | today's the deadline |
| 14:01 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - you should whip up something and submit it if you have time |
| 14:01 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - you too |
| 14:02 | <MikeSmith> | even if you're not sure you can go (or want to) |
| 14:02 | <MikeSmith> | if you need more time, just e-mail edd and let him know |
| 14:03 | <MikeSmith> | I'm pretty sure he'll accept stuff up through Monday anyway |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | what to talk about though |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | all my talks are like 15 minutes max |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | maybe i should talk about stuff i've been involved in and mix it into one large talk :) |
| 14:05 | <MikeSmith> | that'd work |
| 14:05 | <MikeSmith> | worth a try at least |
| 14:06 | gsnedders | can't talk in public at all |
| 14:08 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I think now it's too late in practice. |
| 14:08 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - a talk on XHR and Access Control and related issues around them would be plenty enough for a talk |
| 14:10 | <annevk> | i suppose |
| 14:10 | <annevk> | ok, where can i submit? |
| 14:10 | <annevk> | http://2008.xtech.org/public/cfp |
| 14:10 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - well, for me the main point of XTech is an opportunity to meet face to face with people and talk. If you and annevk and jgraham and others aren't planning to go, it gives me much less reason to go |
| 14:11 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - yeah, that |
| 14:11 | MikeSmith | wonders if hendry might be going |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | crap, you need to login |
| 14:11 | <annevk> | i should get an openid server running somewhere |
| 14:12 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: right. earlier, I got a feeling that the usual suspects from the last three years weren't going. |
| 14:12 | <MikeSmith> | I've been meaning to set up my openid server on my mail/web host |
| 14:12 | annevk | sets up an openid server first |
| 14:12 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: in addition, the stuff I've been up to lately is stuff I already talked about last year in future tense |
| 14:13 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - true, but could talk about what progress you've made |
| 14:14 | <MikeSmith> | as far as usual suspects, I guess Mozilla people probably won't be there |
| 14:15 | <MikeSmith> | folks from Opera maybe |
| 14:16 | <MikeSmith> | we really ought to try to cook up some way to get together for an annual thing in Europe that we don't have to pay to attend |
| 14:17 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, I remember there is this: |
| 14:17 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.w3.org/2002/09/TPOverview.html |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | i'd like a yearly thingie where Web browser people meet |
| 14:17 | <MikeSmith> | 20-25 October 2008, Mandelieu, France |
| 14:17 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - yeah, that's pretty much what I meant |
| 14:18 | <MikeSmith> | except for financial reasons (costs of travel), I think it might need to be two yearly thingies |
| 14:18 | <MikeSmith> | one in Europe, one in North America |
| 14:18 | <hsivonen> | I like having the Tech Plenary in France |
| 14:19 | <MikeSmith> | America one should be in San Francisco/Silicon Valley |
| 14:20 | <hsivonen> | San Francisto is nice, too. (the flight duration, carbon emissions and U.S. border stuff not so nice) |
| 14:20 | <gsnedders> | sodz. |
| 14:20 | <gsnedders> | TP is in my school holidays. |
| 14:22 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, the "Sofitel Cannes Mandelieu Royal Casino Hotel" |
| 14:22 | <MikeSmith> | that doesn't sound inexpensive |
| 14:22 | <gsnedders> | there are plenty of places nearby, though |
| 14:23 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder if there is an "Adequate with Decent Wireless That Doesn't Cost Extra Hotel" |
| 14:24 | <MikeSmith> | the word "Royal" is a synonym for "We will ream you" usually |
| 14:24 | <MikeSmith> | as far as hotels go |
| 14:24 | gsnedders | looks up on website |
| 14:25 | <gsnedders> | for one person, seemingly 199EUR/night (145.94GBP/night) |
| 14:25 | <gsnedders> | and same price for two people in one room |
| 14:26 | gsnedders | goes back to doing something more useful |
| 14:27 | <hsivonen> | if Google Maps is any indication, I don't expect other cheper hotels to be at convenient walking distance |
| 14:28 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: 2006 page lists <http://www.w3.org/2005/12/allgroupoverview.html#Alternate>; |
| 14:28 | <gsnedders> | vary from 200m away to 10/15 minutes walk |
| 14:28 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: thanks |
| 14:29 | <gsnedders> | np |
| 14:29 | <Philip`> | "First, Dirac (or part of it) is going to be an international standard. Yay! We made a cut-down version doing intra coding only and this has only just been submitted to the SMPTE." |
| 14:30 | <Philip`> | "intra coding" sounds like it's just what Motion JPEG does, i.e. kind of rubbish for video compression |
| 14:31 | <Philip`> | (like compressing each frame independently, not making use of any inter-frame similarities over time) |
| 14:31 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen, MikeSmith: that suggests hotels half the price, FWIW |
| 14:34 | <MikeSmith> | Philip` - I seem to remember discussions of Dirac saying the quality was pretty good |
| 14:34 | <MikeSmith> | or not? |
| 14:35 | <MikeSmith> | at least better than Theora |
| 14:36 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: but a profile without wavelet encoding? it's questionable. |
| 14:36 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder if Dirac is anywhere on par with codecs available to Flash developers |
| 14:36 | MikeSmith | doesn't know what codecs Flash supports |
| 14:37 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: H.264 is coming in the next version of flash, so it becomes quite unlikely for a Dirac profile to be better |
| 14:37 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: actually, already shipping in Flash 9 Update 3 |
| 14:38 | <gsnedders> | H.263, VP6, and H.264 are supported |
| 14:39 | <Philip`> | MikeSmith: That's possible, but it sounds like the thing they're submitting to ISO now is a significantly stripped-down version |
| 14:39 | <Philip`> | Oh, actually, am I just making up the ISO part? |
| 14:40 | <Philip`> | Ah, SMPTE |
| 14:41 | Philip` | gets confused by all these fancy new organisations claiming to define standards |
| 14:41 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I gather that SMPTE is where you go in order to get the stamp if ISO says no |
| 14:46 | <hendry> | MikeSmith: i'm preparing some right now. i didn't realise they needed an abstract |
| 15:00 | <MikeSmith> | Philip` - hmm, this whole one-codec-with-multiple-profiles thing really muddies the waters |
| 15:00 | <MikeSmith> | or whatever the call them (if not profiles) |
| 15:00 | <MikeSmith> | Dirac Light |
| 15:00 | <MikeSmith> | Dirac with More Cowbell |
| 15:00 | <annevk> | oh, an abstract |
| 15:00 | <Philip`> | I'm not sure it was ever "waters" - it's just piling more mud into the existing mud |
| 15:01 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 15:02 | <MikeSmith> | then calcification and then strata for future generations to dig into and explore |
| 15:02 | <hsivonen> | that's one point where Theora really shines: it's just Theora--not with profiles and levels |
| 15:02 | <annevk> | Abstract: A talk explaining how client-side cross-site requests will be done two years from now. |
| 15:02 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, profiles generally suck |
| 15:03 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - you need to pad that out with extra words |
| 15:03 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., "An exciting talk..." |
| 15:04 | <MikeSmith> | or "A glimpse into the future..." |
| 15:05 | <MikeSmith> | I find that "glimpse into the future" bit is really useful when talking about standards |
| 15:05 | <MikeSmith> | since they take so long to get done and support deployed |
| 15:06 | <MikeSmith> | "Something to look forward to..." |
| 15:06 | <MikeSmith> | when you are old and gray |
| 15:06 | <MikeSmith> | "Something you grandchildren will enjoy the use of (maybe, if we are done by then)" |
| 15:10 | <gsnedders> | how lovely. I can get by train from here to Mandelieu in just under 24 hours :P |
| 15:11 | <gsnedders> | Oh, and I can get back in a single day!111!! :P |
| 15:12 | gsnedders | somehow doubts he'll be doing that |
| 15:27 | Philip` | notices that the putImageData proposals are sounding a lot like drawImage |
| 16:13 | <zcorpan> | is this the right time to try to eliminate full standards mode? |
| 16:14 | <annevk> | now is as good as ever |
| 16:14 | <Philip`> | http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/01/25/new-snapshot-experimenting-with-document-all-cloaking - is that cloaking something that Firefox does already? |
| 16:15 | <annevk> | yes |
| 16:28 | <aroben> | WebKit does it as well |
| 16:33 | Philip` | wonders if HTML5 says anything about it |
| 16:34 | <Philip`> | Oh, looks like it doesn't |
| 16:52 | <jwalden> | haha |
| 16:53 | <jwalden> | supporting non-standard features to gain compatibility results in compatibility bustage |
| 17:09 | <annevk> | jwalden, that's mostly why Gecko hides it too ;) |
| 17:09 | <jwalden> | yuppers |
| 17:58 | <annevk> | SVG images are nice: http://id.annevankesteren.nl/ |
| 18:11 | <annevk> | hmm, but my openid doesn't really work, or maybe i don't understand how it's supposed to work |
| 18:16 | <MikeSmith> | rubys - hei |
| 18:17 | <MikeSmith> | 久しぶり as we say in Japan |
| 18:17 | <MikeSmith> | "hisashiburi" meaning "long time no see" |
| 18:18 | <rubys> | hi! |
| 18:19 | <rubys> | wandered in to find annevk |
| 18:19 | <annevk> | lets tests this again :) |
| 18:22 | <Ketsuban> | MikeSmith: Now I know how to greet my Japanese teacher when I go back on Monday, thanks. :P |
| 18:51 | <annevk> | ok, added a proposal for XTech |
| 20:07 | <annevk> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jan/0043.html |
| 20:11 | <annevk> | oh, better: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Jan/0055.html |
| 20:13 | <hober> | Was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms-tf/2007Nov/0000.html really the last post to public-forms-tf? |
| 20:14 | <annevk> | yes |
| 20:14 | <annevk> | that list hasn't been active at all |
| 20:14 | <annevk> | i tried getting people to participate but it hasn't worked out |
| 20:15 | <annevk> | but there's a due date in april or so |
| 21:33 | <virtuelv> | those of you who also hang out on reddit: http://reddit.com/r/browsers |
| 21:53 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: a test for acid3: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cinput%20value%3Dx%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.body.firstChild.value%3Dnull%3C%2Fscript%3E |
| 21:53 | <Hixie> | please e-mail me, i am swamped right now |
| 21:53 | <Hixie> | (sorry) |
| 21:53 | <Hixie> | (i do appreciate the help) |
| 21:54 | <zcorpan_> | done |
| 21:54 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 21:59 | <annevk> | ah yeah, Firefox parsing quirks |
| 22:00 | <zcorpan_> | parsing quirk? |
| 22:02 | <annevk> | somehow <script> ends up before <body> |
| 22:02 | <annevk> | and therefore the reference fails |
| 22:02 | <zcorpan_> | not in my firefox (for that case, anyway) |
| 22:02 | <zcorpan_> | but that's not the point of the test |
| 22:03 | <zcorpan_> | that's also something to put in acid3 though |
| 22:03 | <annevk> | my Firefox 3 most definitely does that |
| 22:03 | <annevk> | head > script, body > input |
| 22:03 | <annevk> | instead of body > input, script |
| 22:03 | <zcorpan_> | Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9b3pre) Gecko/2008010211 Minefield/3.0b3pre |
| 22:04 | <zcorpan_> | i get script in head if i use <span> or so instead of <input> though |
| 22:04 | <annevk> | interesting |
| 22:04 | <annevk> | my Firefox 3 is from September or so |
| 22:12 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, I suppose <span></span><script> ... </script> might not fail in WebKit and that therefore it does not count :-( |
| 22:12 | <annevk> | oh well, I can submit it anyway |
| 22:19 | <Hixie> | ok people need to stop being so happy that the html5 doctype will trigger ie8-bugs-mode |
| 22:20 | <Hixie> | there's no advantage to it triggering that bugs mode vs ie7 bugs mode |
| 22:20 | <Hixie> | it's still a frozen bugs mode |
| 22:21 | <zcorpan_> | speaking of interactivity, i wonder if <iframe> and perhaps <object> should be classified as interactive as far as content models go |
| 22:22 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: it sounds like right now it triggers best-effort standards mode, but they reserve the right to freeze it to a bug mode in the future |
| 22:22 | <Hixie> | best-effort mode is IE8 mode |
| 22:23 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, depending on whether they have a scrollbar, perhaps |
| 22:24 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: my point was that click events don't bubble up from the iframe |
| 22:24 | <zcorpan_> | so <a href=''><iframe> is pretty bogus |
| 22:24 | <Hixie> | the "Alright, I Come Clean: I hate HTML 5" sent me a long e-mail about his actual concerns, heh |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | one of his problems is: |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | - It could've been better in terms of openness of the project. A lot |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | better. |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | how the hell can we be more open. seriously. |
| 22:25 | <zcorpan_> | but <object> might be <img>ish or <iframe>ish depening on what is embedded, which makes the conf criteria a bit harder |
| 22:26 | <Hixie> | oh, apparently he just wanted a forum... guess we'd better make forums.whatwg.org more visible |
| 22:26 | <zcorpan_> | anything i can do on that front? rename it to "html5 forum"? |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | i dunno |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | maybe that might work |
| 22:27 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: the difference is only for post-IE8 releases where we can't predict what Microsoft will do |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | WHATWG HTML5 Forums, so we don't piss off the w3c |
| 22:27 | <othermaciej> | (between best-effort mode and IE8 mode) |
| 22:27 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: sure... and if people use the html5 doctype, guess what they'll do |
| 22:28 | <othermaciej> | I'm not recommending using it - I honestly don't know what I'd do if I were a web developer |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | i'd recommend not doing anything |
| 22:28 | <othermaciej> | what's the "I come clean" thing? |
| 22:28 | <Hixie> | http://sitegod.blogspot.com/ |
| 22:29 | <zcorpan_> | as a web developer, it doesn't help you anything at this point to use ie8 mode, because you still need to support ie6 and ie7 |
| 22:29 | <zcorpan_> | instead it probably means you have to work around bugs in ie8 mode as well, meaning more work |
| 22:30 | <othermaciej> | hmmm, which of us are yuppies and which are cowboys? |
| 22:30 | <Ketsuban> | <zcorpan_> instead it probably means you have to work around bugs in ie8 mode as well, meaning more work |
| 22:30 | <Ketsuban> | But working around bugs in any IE version after 5 is trivial. |
| 22:31 | <zcorpan_> | Ketsuban: what i mean is that instead of working around bugs in ie6 and ie7, if you put ie8 in ie8 mode, you *also* have to work around bugs in ie8's ie8 mode |
| 22:31 | <virtuelv> | heh. vitriolic guy |
| 22:32 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan_: you also have to make sure that your IE7 workarounds don't break IE8 in IE8 mode |
| 22:32 | <zcorpan_> | othermaciej: indeed |
| 22:32 | <annevk> | spam: http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?p=559#559 |
| 22:34 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: thanks |
| 22:34 | <zcorpan_> | renamed f.w.o to WHATWG HTML5 Forums |
| 22:39 | <virtuelv> | does anyone know of a tool to generate a diff between an archive.org copy of a site and the current document? |
| 22:40 | <Hixie> | diff(1) ? |
| 22:40 | <virtuelv> | the latest a list apart showed up in my feeds again, I'm wondering if anything changed within |
| 22:40 | <Hixie> | (with curl(1)?) |
| 22:40 | <eseidel_> | sounds like a fun little tool to write |
| 22:40 | <eseidel_> | could diff between archive.org versions too |
| 22:41 | <virtuelv> | not that it really helps with alistapart |
| 22:41 | <virtuelv> | " Material typically becomes available here 6 months after collection (See FAQ) " |
| 22:41 | <virtuelv> | google cache might be an alternative |
| 22:42 | <virtuelv> | (But I realise that requires massage, and permission from Google |
| 22:42 | <virtuelv> | ) |
| 22:44 | <zcorpan_> | "Really, from the point of view of HTML5 it doesn't matter whose fault the headers being sent are. It might be the fault of Apache, or IE, or Netscape, or the great spaghetti monster." |
| 22:44 | <zcorpan_> | let's blame the great spaghetti monster ;) |
| 22:44 | <Dashiva> | He doesn't like being blamed, I hear |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | is the great spaghetti monster his highness the flying spaghetti monster? |
| 22:45 | <zcorpan_> | not sure, but it's his fault we now will have to sniff text/plain; charset=UTF-8 :P |
| 22:45 | <Dashiva> | I bet if everyone used IIS, we wouldn't have this problem :P |
| 22:50 | <annevk> | Hixie, you disagree with that part of Web Arch? |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | i disagree with much of webarch |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | i haven't recently checked whether i agree or disagree with that particular section, or whether it applies here. |
| 22:53 | <annevk> | i see |
| 22:53 | <annevk> | might not have been the smartest move :) |
| 23:27 | jwalden | wonders why HTML5 forbids UTF-32 |
| 23:27 | <gsnedders> | jwalden: because it's pointless, it's verbose, and nobody uses it |
| 23:28 | <gsnedders> | jwalden: and it doesn't forbid it, it's just SHOULD NOT |
| 23:28 | <jwalden> | <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=414064#c0>; claims it's a must not |
| 23:28 | <gsnedders> | jwalden: then either the spec or the bug report is wrong :) |
| 23:28 | <gsnedders> | "Authors should not use UTF-32." |
| 23:28 | <Dashiva> | If you use enough non-BMP characters that UTF-32 is a size advantage, I'd like to see it :) |
| 23:29 | <gsnedders> | "Support for UTF-32 is not recommended." |
| 23:29 | <Dashiva> | jwalden: Um |
| 23:29 | <gsnedders> | jwalden: i..e, the bug report is wrong :) |
| 23:29 | <jwalden> | I can't speak to the third, the second's accurate, but the first seems wrong in that you have constant-time indexing access, which might be useful |
| 23:29 | <gsnedders> | jwalden: no, the bug report is right. it doesn't say UTF-32 is must not |
| 23:29 | <jwalden> | er |
| 23:29 | <gavin> | that comment doesn't say that it's a MUST NOT |
| 23:30 | <jwalden> | oh, misread |
| 23:30 | <annevk> | not recommended == should not |
| 23:30 | <jwalden> | blah |
| 23:30 | <jwalden> | I skimmed the first part and assumed UTF-32 was in the same category |
| 23:30 | <jwalden> | without reading the latter half of the paragraph closely |
| 23:30 | jwalden | wonders how else he can waste everyone's time here! |
| 23:31 | <gsnedders> | jwalden: tell me to go to bed |
| 23:31 | <Dashiva> | jwalden: Watch me and learn |
| 23:31 | jwalden | just learned! |
| 23:34 | <annevk> | i wouldn't mind must not i think |
| 23:35 | <annevk> | the less encodings the better |
| 23:35 | <gsnedders> | I don't see why it should be must not |
| 23:36 | <gsnedders> | it's so little code once you have unicode support anyway |
| 23:36 | <annevk> | oliver hunt in this channel? |
| 23:36 | <annevk> | less encodings, less edge case testing, less bugs, fewer options, etc. |
| 23:37 | <jgraham> | Authors must not use UTF-32, UAs should not support UTF-32 |
| 23:41 | <SadEagle> | annevk: he is olliej on #webkit, I think |