| 04:49 | <Hixie> | i guess the fact that e.g. the http group are jumping up and down and talking about html5, should be taken as a good sign |
| 05:26 | <Hixie> | wtf is UTF-4 |
| 05:26 | <takkaria> | hah |
| 05:26 | <takkaria> | an academic exercise in the least efficient Unicode encoding |
| 05:27 | <Hixie> | is there a page about it somewhere? |
| 05:27 | <Hixie> | good lord, people actually want to register about:blank |
| 05:27 | <Hixie> | what a waste of time that would be |
| 05:28 | Hixie | fears the day that tools like "curl" support about:blank |
| 05:28 | <Hixie> | about: should _so_ just be left up to the browsers... |
| 05:29 | <takkaria> | I can only find one mention of utf-4 on the web and that looks like the same typo in libxml |
| 05:32 | <Hixie> | yeah i couldn't find anything either |
| 05:32 | <Hixie> | wouldn't have asked here if i could :-) |
| 05:44 | <takkaria> | Hixie: where did you find mention of utf-4? |
| 05:49 | <Dashiva> | takkaria: I suspect even utf-4 would be more efficient than utf-32 on boring english text |
| 05:49 | takkaria | chuckles |
| 05:50 | <takkaria> | it's quite true, that |
| 07:58 | <hsivonen> | Hmm. Nokia buys Trolltech. I didn't see that one coming. |
| 08:01 | <maikmerten> | d'oh |
| 08:02 | <maikmerten> | well, I guess it makes some sense |
| 08:03 | <maikmerten> | albeit I was under the impression that e.g. Maemo was Gtk based? |
| 08:04 | <maikmerten> | notice how Nokia apparently is *not* partner of Google's Android |
| 08:05 | <maikmerten> | so I can only guess they're trying to grab whatever mobility mindshare is available for money to develop their own platform |
| 08:09 | <hsivonen> | for years Nokia leadership has talked about "level playing field" as a nice way of saying "we won't use Qt". I guess this levels the playing field to Nokia's taste... |
| 08:11 | <hsivonen> | so far Nokia has liked LGPL but not the GPL |
| 08:12 | <hsivonen> | It'll be interesting to see if the Trolltech business model stays |
| 08:22 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - wow |
| 08:25 | <virtuelv> | they're set to pay around USD 155M |
| 08:25 | <virtuelv> | http://www.newsweb.no/newsweb/index.jsp?messageId=201563&lang= |
| 08:25 | <maikmerten> | is Gtk really causing them that much damage? ;-) |
| 08:27 | <hsivonen> | the press release talk about accelerating strategy and improving the competitiveness of S60 and *S40* |
| 08:28 | <hsivonen> | Qtopia runs without X |
| 08:28 | <hsivonen> | but Maemo requires X and all |
| 08:28 | <maikmerten> | yeah, Maemo has a rather deep software stack |
| 08:28 | <maikmerten> | which of course is what makes so a tempting hacking device |
| 08:29 | <maikmerten> | but for real phones something "thinner" may just make more sense |
| 08:58 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - "Nokia will have a live webcast today at 11.15am Helsinki time (+1 CET), which can be followed from the Nokia website at http://www.nokia.com/press. You may also post your questions while listening to the webcast." |
| 08:58 | <MikeSmith> | that's in 10 minutes, right? |
| 09:01 | <takkaria> | MikeSmith: now only 8 |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | damn, seems it requires Windows Media Player support |
| 09:05 | <takkaria> | I can pick up audio using VLC |
| 09:06 | <Philip`> | Tried mplayer? |
| 09:07 | <takkaria> | no luck there either |
| 09:09 | <maikmerten> | I find it somewhat amusing that Nokia isn't streaming some kind MPEG |
| 09:10 | <Philip`> | I thought they would use Theora |
| 09:11 | <maikmerten> | haha, yeah, that would put a big smile onto my face |
| 09:11 | <takkaria> | apparently this is actually just an audiocast |
| 09:11 | <maikmerten> | but given the position paper Nokia issued to the video workshop... nope, won't happen for now |
| 09:11 | <maikmerten> | bah, then I wonder why they're using Windows Media at all |
| 09:12 | <maikmerten> | (one could argue that WMV + WMA would be reaching more people than every other video/audio solution) |
| 09:12 | <maikmerten> | (for audio this clearly isn't as... clear) |
| 09:13 | <MikeSmith> | (Nokia webcast starting now) |
| 09:14 | <takkaria> | maikmerten: how about mp3 streaming? :) |
| 09:15 | <maikmerten> | yeah, that would have been the obvious solution |
| 09:15 | <maikmerten> | but obviously I won't recommend any patented format, bias ahoi! |
| 09:16 | <takkaria> | not patented for too much longer |
| 09:16 | <maikmerten> | (that is: any patented format without non-free patent licensing) |
| 09:16 | <takkaria> | MikeSmith: tell us if any interesting comes up, please |
| 09:16 | <maikmerten> | yeah, I think MP3 may expire like in 2011 |
| 09:17 | <MikeSmith> | takkaria - so far, it's mostly just the same information from the press release |
| 09:18 | <MikeSmith> | talking now is VP of devices for Nokia, Kai Öistämö |
| 09:19 | <MikeSmith> | I think he borrowed these slides from the marketing dept. |
| 09:20 | <MikeSmith> | "...enable Web 2.0 on the mobile" |
| 09:22 | <MikeSmith> | mentions PC as a platform, along with mobile, as part of their "software strategy" |
| 09:23 | <hdh> | phonon in 4.4 on gnu/linux links with xine or gstreamer, and get theora for free |
| 09:24 | <MikeSmith> | "key driver is *not* to develop a Linux-based mobile device" |
| 09:27 | <MikeSmith> | "Qt is the only set of libraries available on all desktop platforms and mobile devices" |
| 09:29 | <MikeSmith> | "all major software platforms in the world" |
| 09:30 | <MikeSmith> | "will greatly improve the competiveness of Series 40 and Series 60" |
| 09:30 | <MikeSmith> | "continue to work closely with OSS community, especially KDE" |
| 09:30 | <MikeSmith> | now taking questions |
| 09:30 | <MikeSmith> | Mark [somebody] talking |
| 09:31 | <MikeSmith> | Eirik Chambe-Eng on also |
| 09:31 | <MikeSmith> | and Lee Williams from Nokia R&D |
| 09:32 | <MikeSmith> | "will continue to work on S30, S40, S60, as well as Maemo" |
| 09:33 | <MikeSmith> | will development of X11 of Qt continue? Eirik: Definitely, of course |
| 09:34 | <takkaria> | hmm, interesting |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | how does Qt tie in with existing platforms like Maemo? when do we get to develop Qt apps for Nokia devices? |
| 09:35 | <MikeSmith> | Lee: Not prepared to talk about that now... stay tuned |
| 09:36 | <MikeSmith> | Does this help to decrease porting costs for mobile gaming segment? |
| 09:37 | <MikeSmith> | Kai: That is a valid question... whole idea of this is that is reducing development costs for [third-party] application developers. |
| 09:37 | <MikeSmith> | .. but not willing to talk about specifics now |
| 09:38 | <MikeSmith> | Q: Will support of Windows PC continue? Kai: Yes, important |
| 09:39 | <MikeSmith> | Q: When is official public offer? |
| 09:39 | <MikeSmith> | will complete in 2nd quarter of this year? |
| 09:39 | <MikeSmith> | Q: Will any trolls be fired? |
| 09:40 | <MikeSmith> | Kai: one of the key reasons for this really is the talent... makes me laugh.. at the moment we have not plans to reduce a workforce we are just now acquiring.. of course not |
| 09:40 | <MikeSmith> | Eirik: Everyone at Trolltech is gung-ho about this |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | ... realization of Qt everywhere |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | Kai's closing comments: Helping us and third-party developers more efficiently develop [across platforms] |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | [end of webcast] |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | hmm, not too much meat there |
| 09:42 | <Chani> | aw, I missed it? |
| 09:43 | <hdh> | thanks MikeSmith |
| 09:44 | <MikeSmith> | Chani - didn't miss so much.. most of what they said was in their press release already |
| 09:44 | <blauzahl> | MikeSmith: nice work! |
| 09:44 | <takkaria> | MikeSmith: ta |
| 09:44 | <MikeSmith> | log is here too: |
| 09:45 | <MikeSmith> | http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080128 |
| 09:45 | <blauzahl> | :) |
| 09:45 | <Chani> | cool |
| 10:29 | <hdh> | audio recording in http://www.libqxt.org/stuff/ but in some weird IVR format |
| 10:41 | <Philip`> | Not Vorbis? :-( |
| 10:47 | <hdh> | the recorder (zbenjamin in #qt) doesn't know how to convert it, and uses real player |
| 11:13 | <annevk> | if registering about is what it takes... |
| 11:13 | <annevk> | re: Hixie earlier |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | though curl about:blank would be a bit weird |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | much like curl data:... or curl javascript:... |
| 11:17 | <Lachy> | or curl mailto: But I wouldn't expect curl to support non-network-retrievable URIs. |
| 11:18 | <Lachy> | although curl data:... could be useful if you just want to quickly convert a data URI into a file. |
| 11:19 | <annevk> | also, content relies on about:blank, clients support it as URI, makes sense if it was registered leaving the "blank" space to HTML5 and the rest to client software |
| 12:16 | Philip` | doesn't like the cssutils parser since it seems to be quadratically slow |
| 12:22 | <annevk> | hsivonen, on about.validator.nu "identd" -> "identity"? |
| 12:23 | <annevk> | hsivonen, also, your copyright only extends until 2007? |
| 12:43 | <MikeSmith> | new mobile browser announced today |
| 12:43 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.skyfire.com/product/ |
| 12:44 | <MikeSmith> | link to a video there |
| 12:46 | <Philip`> | http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:DfrjbPJEZIsJ:www.dvclabs.com/mozilla.html - sounds like they're building it on Mozilla |
| 12:47 | <Camaban> | er, how many mobile phones have a stylus? |
| 12:47 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 12:47 | <MikeSmith> | Camaban - yeah, I had same thought |
| 12:48 | <MikeSmith> | It also doesn't seem to have any sort of adaptive/intelligent zoom |
| 12:48 | <MikeSmith> | i.e., on zoom, it doesn't wrap text to the width of the screen |
| 12:48 | <Camaban> | hmmm, and playing youtube videos? |
| 12:49 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: then it wouldn't be exactly as on your PC ;) |
| 12:50 | <zcorpan> | i wonder if it supports xhtml |
| 12:53 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan - yeah, I guess they're taking the "exactly as on your PC" part literally |
| 12:53 | <Camaban> | "For the first time, you can watch any video, listen to any music," |
| 12:53 | Camaban | is dubious |
| 12:54 | <MikeSmith> | Philip` - that seems to suggest it's based on Minimo (now end-of-lifed) |
| 12:54 | <MikeSmith> | or I guess they may have done something themselves with Mozilla embedded |
| 12:57 | <Camaban> | "The Skyfire private beta will initially support Windows Mobile phones in the U.S. In the coming months, we will introduce a version for Symbian phones." |
| 12:57 | <Camaban> | not exactly supporting all mobile phones.... |
| 12:58 | Camaban | pats Opera Mini on the head |
| 12:59 | <Philip`> | Opera Mini doesn't work on my phone :-( |
| 12:59 | <MikeSmith> | Philip` - which model is your phone? |
| 12:59 | <Philip`> | (or at least I couldn't get it to actually connect to the internet, which made it a bit useless) |
| 12:59 | <Camaban> | heh, I knew if I mentioned someone would point out an exception :P |
| 13:00 | <Philip`> | It's apparently a T630 |
| 13:00 | <Camaban> | still, much broader support than "Windows Mobile" phones... |
| 13:01 | <Philip`> | Hmm, Opera Mini 3 claims it should work there, so maybe I just need to set up the internet access properly |
| 13:03 | <MikeSmith> | Philip` - there's a help page at the Opera site for resolving connection problems |
| 13:03 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.operamini.com/help/connect/ |
| 13:03 | <MikeSmith> | this page has some info too: http://wapreview.com/blog/?p=466 |
| 13:06 | <Philip`> | I think I just don't care enough about mobile web access to bother with anything like that :-) |
| 13:07 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: thanks for relaying the Nokia/Trolltech info |
| 13:08 | <MikeSmith> | yup |
| 13:11 | Philip` | avoids most needs for mobile devices by simply not moving |
| 13:18 | <MikeSmith> | Philip` - I guess I'd see a lot less need for mobile devices if I didn't have to move around so much. 90-minute one-way commute to office by bus+(crowded)train+walk kind of makes it seem more useful |
| 13:18 | <MikeSmith> | plus not having a car |
| 13:19 | Camaban | finds it useful for the pub and wikipedia access :) |
| 13:20 | <hsivonen> | annevk: thanks, but neither identd nor 2007 is a typo |
| 13:20 | <hsivonen> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ident |
| 13:28 | <annevk> | oh, ok |
| 13:28 | <annevk> | why don't you retain copyright? |
| 13:31 | <hendry> | annevk: i have question regarding http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control/#access-item |
| 13:32 | <annevk> | please use http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/ instead |
| 13:32 | <annevk> | but go ahead anyway :) |
| 13:32 | <hendry> | ok, i didn't read "The following access items would make the user agent deny access to the resource:" :) |
| 13:32 | <annevk> | ok |
| 13:33 | <hendry> | so myspace.com/annevk type access items won't be allowed |
| 13:33 | <annevk> | that's actually slightly clearer in the revised version based on similar feedback :) |
| 13:33 | <annevk> | correct, it doesn't help |
| 13:33 | <hendry> | annevk: ok, i'm fine with that :) |
| 13:34 | <annevk> | myspace.com/evil could inject an <iframe> that loads /annevk and then execute some script that causes the load from /annevk ... |
| 13:34 | <annevk> | so making it origin based like the rest of the Web is better |
| 13:34 | <hendry> | agreed |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/specs/xml-stylesheet5 now features BNF |
| 14:48 | zcorpan | hopes it is correct |
| 14:51 | gsnedders | prefers ABNF |
| 14:52 | <zcorpan> | i just tried to mimic the xml-stylesheet 1.0 and xml 1.0 specs :) |
| 14:52 | <gsnedders> | ah, that isn't actual BNF (BNF has no reptition form for one) |
| 14:52 | <gsnedders> | and it's not EBNF's reptition form |
| 14:53 | <gsnedders> | http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-notation |
| 14:53 | <hsivonen> | I submitted a presentation proposal to XTech after all |
| 14:54 | <zcorpan> | oh. EBNF is not what i want |
| 14:54 | <zcorpan> | i don't want [^...] to be Char |
| 14:55 | <zcorpan> | or i guess i can use my own Char and say Char - ( ... | ... ) |
| 15:38 | <annevk> | gsnedders, ah, you know ABNF? |
| 15:38 | <gsnedders> | annevk: ya |
| 15:38 | <annevk> | do you have spare time? |
| 15:39 | <gsnedders> | annevk: well, you're the one who advised me to spend more time on revising, but seeming I'm not doing so, sure :) |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | I need the productions in section 4 of http://dev.w3.org/2006/waf/access-control/ converted to ABNF preferably |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | this should be pretty trivial as the amount of productions is small |
| 15:39 | <gsnedders> | there's not that much there, so sure |
| 15:40 | <annevk> | feel free to e-mail public-appformats⊙wo, me, or paste it in here :) |
| 15:40 | <annevk> | as a "bonus" your name will appear at the bottom of the spec |
| 15:42 | <gsnedders> | oh wows! |
| 15:42 | <gsnedders> | I must do it now! |
| 16:42 | <Philip`> | putImageData isn't going to work when we move to hexagonal pixels |
| 16:44 | <Dashiva> | What about two-layer displays? |
| 16:48 | <kig> | <script type="text/c"> |
| 16:51 | <kig> | putImageData with lazy infinite lists would be a bit funny |
| 16:52 | <annevk> | from Gecko's public bug database it seems that removing almost standards mode would make quite a few people happy |
| 16:52 | <annevk> | (removing it by introducing the same quirk in standards mode) |
| 16:52 | <hsivonen> | annevk: URL? |
| 16:53 | <annevk> | see recent duplicates on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22274 |
| 16:53 | <hsivonen> | ah. bug 22274 |
| 17:00 | <annevk> | with SVG inside table cells for instance |
| 17:00 | <annevk> | maybe i should just raise it on www-style and see where it goes |
| 17:23 | <webben> | Wouldn't that just result in lots of bug reports of people with standards mode pages that are broken. |
| 17:25 | <Dashiva> | How would it ever be a feature, though? |
| 17:26 | <annevk> | webben, I don't think it will have averse effects |
| 17:27 | <hsivonen> | webben: do pages depend on the standards mode behavior on this point? |
| 17:27 | <webben> | why wouldn't they? |
| 17:27 | <hsivonen> | webben: IE7 has different behavior |
| 17:27 | <webben> | if pages depend on the non-standards mode behaviour, then wouldn't the inverse be true too |
| 17:28 | <Dashiva> | No, only if there is an inverse use case |
| 17:28 | <webben> | IE7 having different behavior might just result in hacks/conditional comments |
| 17:28 | <Dashiva> | Take our friend the global RegExp object for literals in es3, a prime example :) |
| 17:29 | <annevk> | is the inverse even noticable? |
| 17:30 | <annevk> | webben, for this case that seems highly unlikely |
| 17:45 | <zcorpan_> | "First, XHTML doesn't |
| 17:45 | <zcorpan_> | really envision the idea of adding attributes to a document after it is |
| 17:45 | <zcorpan_> | loaded (after DOMready or the LOAD event fires). " -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jan/0030.html |
| 17:57 | <annevk> | earth >< public-xhtml2 |
| 17:57 | <gsnedders> | soil! |
| 17:58 | <Philip`> | Makes sense for something that is document markup, rather than interactive applications shoved into what used to be document markup |
| 17:58 | <SadEagle> | DOM Core >< public-xhtml2 |
| 17:58 | <SadEagle> | Philip`: then what are the events for? |
| 17:58 | <annevk> | Philip`, it somehow seems to conflict with XForms Actions |
| 17:58 | <Philip`> | Um... Maybe they're for backward compatibility |
| 17:58 | <annevk> | but perhaps that's less expressive than I thought |
| 17:59 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: but role is about interactive applications, at least when combined with aria |
| 18:02 | <annevk> | i'd just reply that such a response doesn't work |
| 18:14 | <alp> | kig: i linked to CAKE in my blog post about canvas GL acceleration, http://www.atoker.com/blog/2008/01/28/accelerating-webkit-with-openvg/ |
| 18:16 | <kig> | alp: nice! |
| 18:23 | <kig> | cairo openvg backend sounds awesome too |
| 18:29 | zcorpan_ | replied |
| 18:59 | <hsivonen> | oh noes. they have an RFC 4646bis in the works already |
| 18:59 | <hsivonen> | http://www1.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-11.txt |
| 18:59 | <hsivonen> | can someone summarize what the changes are? |
| 19:02 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: um, isn;t section 8 a summary? |
| 19:07 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: thanks. |
| 19:10 | <hsivonen> | my first reading suggests that I don't need to change my implementation |
| 19:53 | <Hixie> | zcorpan, annevk: the tests suggestions you e-mailed me unfortunately aren't JS tests, so they are hard to add to acid3 |
| 19:55 | <annevk> | <iframe> that reports back just like you have those other notification tests? |
| 19:56 | <Hixie> | i don't want to add more content to the <body> |
| 19:57 | <Hixie> | every time i add more content to <body>, i break half a dozen tests in subtle ways that i don't detect for a week or more |
| 19:57 | <Hixie> | this is why the svg tests are proving to be a bitch |
| 19:57 | <Hixie> | since people don't want to use data:... |
| 19:57 | <Hixie> | which i still think is dumb but i understand is hard and not in a spec... |
| 20:09 | <hsivonen> | Michaeljohn Clement++ on -comments |
| 20:11 | <annevk> | Hixie, better spec it then for Acid5 |
| 20:11 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 20:12 | <annevk> | i think you can test WRONG_DOCUMENT_ERR btw |
| 20:13 | <annevk> | since Firefox fixed it |
| 20:13 | <annevk> | although it would only expose bugs in Opera + WebKit + maybe IE |
| 20:13 | <SadEagle> | annevk: wow? Firefox actually does that now? |
| 20:14 | <annevk> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=47903 suggests that |
| 20:15 | SadEagle | ponders closing the wishlist for the auto-adopt quirk, then :-) |
| 20:17 | <Hixie> | annevk: ? |
| 20:17 | <Hixie> | oh you mean check that you must cal import? |
| 20:17 | <Hixie> | i'd rather change the spec |
| 20:17 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 20:18 | <annevk> | hmm, DOM specs |
| 20:20 | <annevk> | that works for me |
| 20:20 | <annevk> | you can add CSS parsing tests |
| 20:20 | <annevk> | such as "@media all { x } element { background:lime }" |
| 20:23 | <Hixie> | i have a bunch of @media tests already |
| 20:23 | <Hixie> | i really just want to focus on dom and js |
| 20:43 | <Hixie> | ok i need just a few more tests |
| 21:33 | <aseem> | hi all |
| 21:33 | <aseem> | I had a ques about html sanitization using html5lib |
| 21:36 | <aseem> | anybody?? |
| 21:37 | <hober> | What's your question? |
| 21:37 | <aseem> | I wanted to be able to strip out tags instead of simply escaping them... |
| 21:37 | <aseem> | I could use a treewalker to do that too, but was wondering if I could use the build in sanitizer to so |
| 21:40 | <aseem> | I could also modify the code to do what I want, but that would be a tad bit unmaintainable in the long run |
| 21:45 | <annevk> | TAG discussing <meta> madness |
| 21:45 | <annevk> | could be interesting |
| 21:48 | <jgraham_> | aseem: This is a pretty common feature request (well two people have asked), so a patch to do it would be welcome |
| 21:49 | <aseem> | ok... I will give it a go and if it works fine, submit a patch.. |
| 21:49 | <aseem> | thx |
| 21:55 | <Hixie> | i need to come up with one more thing to test |
| 21:56 | <Hixie> | i have room for up to three more things if anyone comes up with anything |
| 22:13 | jgraham_ | dons his table headers hard-hat |
| 23:10 | <jgraham_> | Apologies in advance btw |
| 23:27 | <annevk> | Hixie, loading Acid3 results in something weird |
| 23:33 | <annevk> | crap, about: is not interoperable |
| 23:34 | <SadEagle> | what about 'about:blank'? |
| 23:38 | <annevk> | hmm, seems to be some other problem |