| 00:08 | <takkaria> | Welcome, takkaria. |
| 00:08 | <takkaria> | You last visited: Today at 15:46 |
| 00:08 | <takkaria> | Private Messages: Unread 0, Total 20. |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | um |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | this e-mail i'm replying to starts: |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | "Sorry for the late reply"... |
| 01:37 | <Hixie> | (it's from 8 Jun 2005) |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | > Might be. I think web developer would have a parade down Main Street |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | > in every major city in the world if Microsoft would just fix its |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | > standards support problems. |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | (-Matthew Raymond) |
| 02:36 | <Hixie> | topic: <address> |
| 02:36 | <Hixie> | any opinions? |
| 02:37 | <othermaciej> | it is a silly element |
| 02:38 | <othermaciej> | first of all, having an element dedicated just to contact info for the document seems frivolous |
| 02:38 | <othermaciej> | second, it steals a name that would have been well suited to an element to hold an arbitrary address |
| 02:38 | <othermaciej> | third, the contact info might not even be what anyone would call an address |
| 02:38 | <othermaciej> | I don't know if that's the kind of opinions you were looking for |
| 02:39 | <Hixie> | i agree with those opinions |
| 02:39 | <Hixie> | what do you think we should do? |
| 02:39 | <Hixie> | keep it, drop it, change it...? |
| 02:44 | <othermaciej> | I don't really have a strong opinion on that |
| 02:45 | <othermaciej> | I'm sure people will complain wildly if it gets redefined to be an address instead |
| 02:45 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 02:45 | <othermaciej> | I don't know how much content uses it, or what the practical impact would be of either dropping or redefining it |
| 02:46 | <Hixie> | http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=5 has some stats |
| 02:46 | <Hixie> | (quoted from irc from me) |
| 02:51 | <othermaciej> | my off-the-cuff opinion is that it would be better to repurpose it for addresses instead of contact info |
| 02:51 | <othermaciej> | but then again I am not the one who would have to deal with the resulting pitchfork-wielding mobs of standardistas |
| 02:52 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 03:00 | eseidel | nominates Hixie for the "most useful thing to web engine hackers" award |
| 03:00 | <eseidel> | it would only probably be your 3rd year running :) |
| 03:02 | <mpt> | An element just for addresses? |
| 03:02 | <mpt> | Would GPS coordinates count? |
| 06:54 | <Hixie> | for some reason it irks me that the html wg chairs call their phone meeting "the" html wg telecon |
| 06:55 | <Hixie> | i don't understand why |
| 06:55 | <Hixie> | i have nothing against people using any communication method to go through things they've planned to do and work out if they've done them or not |
| 06:56 | <Hixie> | it just seems to convey too much importance to that meeting |
| 06:56 | <Hixie> | maybe i should just be happy that they are diluting the term so much :-) |
| 07:31 | webben_ | notes it would be useful to have a URI attribute for the cite element. anchors can't do the job, e.g. <a href="example.com">Irvine Welsh reminisces about writing <cite uri="whatever">Trainspotting</cite></a>. |
| 07:39 | <Hixie> | Irvin Welsh <a href="">reminisces</a> about writing <a href="whatever"><cite>Trainspotting</cite></a>. |
| 07:41 | <webben_> | That would be one way to do it. "reminisces" isn't especially useful link text however. |
| 07:42 | <webben_> | (either in terms of end-users or in terms of facilitating search) |
| 07:44 | <webben_> | also, that doesn't mean quite the same thing if you're pulling out bibliographic references |
| 07:44 | <webben_> | (that is, you can't be as sure whatever is meant to equal trainspotting as opposed to a resource discussing trainspotting. |
| 07:45 | <webben_> | e.g. a review |
| 07:51 | <webben_> | I suspect similar problems might lie behind http://ocoins.info/#id3205609417 |
| 08:01 | <webben_> | or perhaps not: http://old.onebiglibrary.net/yale/cipolo/gcs-pcs-list/2005-June/000110.html |
| 12:26 | <hsivonen> | Hmm. for some reason bugzilla uses <td><strong> instead of <th>... |
| 12:48 | <zcorpan> | was bugzilla WYSIWYGed when it was created? |
| 12:54 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: WYSIWYGed? |
| 12:55 | <hsivonen> | hmm. this has been fixed in Bugzilla 3.x |
| 12:56 | <hsivonen> | hmm. nope, it hasn't been fixed in every instance |
| 12:56 | <hsivonen> | oh well |
| 12:57 | <hsivonen> | there's now http://bugzilla.validator.nu/ |
| 12:57 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: crafted using a WYSIWYG program |
| 12:58 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I have no idea how the Bugzilla templates originated, but considering how many form fields there are, I doubt they were created with a WYSIWYG tool |
| 12:59 | <Dashiva> | What you hack in is what you get |
| 13:00 | <annevk> | it's probably back from the days when mozilla's front page was a table hack |
| 13:00 | <hsivonen> | annevk: yeah, the visible layout hasn't changed since those days |
| 13:01 | <hsivonen> | probably in between <b> has been bikeshedded to <strong> instead of <th> |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | at some point i was slightly involved in getting better markup for bugzilla, but that didn't last long |
| 13:28 | <zcorpan> | http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=9#617 http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=38&start=15#616 spam? |
| 13:29 | <Camaban> | probably |
| 13:30 | <hsivonen> | yes |
| 13:30 | <zcorpan> | removed |
| 13:38 | <annevk> | zcorpan, http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?p=621#621 (and user too) |
| 13:39 | <hsivonen> | annevk: where's the payload in that spam? |
| 13:39 | <annevk> | www button |
| 13:45 | <zcorpan> | annevk: thanks |
| 13:46 | <zcorpan> | f.w.o has a relatively high spam to real posts ratio :( |
| 18:32 | <Hixie> | annevk: dude, you keep posting to a member-secret list :-P |
| 18:35 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: "there" is the role definitions in http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-role/#s_role_module_attributes (re http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080220#l-396 ) |
| 20:07 | <Hixie> | sure are a lot of people looking for acid3 on google |
| 20:07 | <jwalden> | half of them were probably me, until the URL became memorable enough that I didn't need Google :-) |
| 20:08 | <jwalden> | comes from doing most testing in a throwaway browser instance with completely clean state |
| 20:15 | <Hixie> | jwalden: no, they're from all over the world |
| 20:15 | <jwalden> | I was being facetious |
| 20:16 | <Hixie> | =:-) |
| 20:16 | <jwalden> | (and adding words with all five vowels to the dialogue) |
| 20:16 | <jwalden> | (and doing so again!) |
| 20:17 | Philip` | gives jwalden a cauliflower |
| 20:18 | <jwalden> | whee! |
| 20:18 | <Hixie> | freaks |
| 20:18 | <Hixie> | :-P |
| 20:19 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: says the guy with a spec for his own form of English :P |
| 20:22 | <Philip`> | http://googlemapsapi.blogspot.com/2008/02/google-maps-without-scripting.html - hmm, unescaped ampersands in example code :-( |
| 20:22 | <jwalden> | don't even get me started; I'm far worse with anagramming words in conversations/etc. :-) |
| 20:23 | <Philip`> | It's fun writing emails so that every line has precisely the same length |
| 20:23 | <jwalden> | yay for not sending things with the XHTML mime type |
| 20:23 | <jwalden> | or something |
| 20:45 | <Hixie> | Philip`: yeah, i do that sometimes. dbaron started me down that road. |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | good lord |
| 20:48 | Hixie | finds an e-mail from a year ago asking him to prioritise replying to stuff from 2 years ago |
| 20:49 | <gsnedders> | Philip`, Hixie: freaks :P |
| 20:49 | <Dashiva> | Your mailbox could be used as a modern variant of message-in-a-bottle |
| 20:50 | <Dashiva> | "Dear whoever is working on html when Hixie reaches this message..." |
| 20:55 | <jwalden> | I send an SOS to whatwg, I hope that someone will find my postMessage in a bottle... |
| 20:59 | <dbaron> | Hixie, could you suggest how to use google to search for messages with all lines the same length? :-P |
| 20:59 | <Hixie> | here's no publicly-facing ui that would let you do that |
| 21:15 | <takkaria> | Hixie: how big is your email backlog thesedays? |
| 22:03 | <Hixie> | takkaria: http://whatwg.org/issues/data.html |
| 22:15 | <Hixie> | ok so event-source |
| 22:15 | <Hixie> | we clearly want to dramatically simplify this |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | right now each line is one of: |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | ;comment |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | :command |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | field: data |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | (blank line) |
| 22:18 | <Hixie> | the current simplification results in the only 'field' being 'data' or 'message' or some such |
| 22:19 | <Hixie> | if you want to send arbitrary data, a system that makes it hard to fake would be good |
| 22:19 | <Hixie> | right now we're susceptible to people inlining strings that happen to contain newlines |
| 22:19 | <Hixie> | that would be bad |
| 22:21 | <Hixie> | we could have (length marker) (data of that length) but then we're susceptible to people using badly formed UTF-8 to make servers not realise what the length is |
| 22:21 | <Hixie> | hmmmmm |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | hm, one useful thing would be for the event stream to include a number |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | for each event |
| 22:30 | <Hixie> | and then reconnection requests could include a header with the last number received |
| 22:33 | <annevk> | Hixie, what member list? |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | css |
| 22:34 | <annevk> | aah |
| 22:34 | <annevk> | it's my only sin :p |
| 22:34 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | i hope opera doesn't mind |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | but i'm blowing up event-source |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | and rebuilding it |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | to take into account everyone's feedback |
| 22:35 | <annevk> | we probably do, depending on what happens to it |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | (i'm changing the mime type of the format, so it should be possible to support both) |
| 22:36 | <annevk> | ok, we'll see I guess :) |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | uh |
| 22:36 | <Hixie> | wtf |
| 22:36 | <jwalden> | Content-Type: chunked comes to mind here |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | my ipod touch just rebooted |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | on its own |
| 22:37 | <Hixie> | freaky |
| 22:38 | <Hixie> | jwalden: you mean Content-Encoding? |
| 22:38 | <jwalden> | er, yes |
| 22:38 | <jwalden> | Hixie: re whitespace handling in the class attribute in acid3, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=254337#c5 |
| 22:40 | <Hixie> | man, the http spec is so badly written. it just totally doesn't have any error handling rules. |
| 22:45 | <annevk> | Hixie, it's unlikely that'll be fixed |
| 22:45 | <annevk> | for 2616bis anyway |
| 22:45 | <jwalden> | bis? |
| 22:46 | <annevk> | the HTTP WG is working on a revision of RFC 2616 |
| 22:47 | <jwalden> | zounds |
| 22:47 | jwalden | searches |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | annevk: yeah, i know |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | jwalden: commented |
| 22:48 | <jwalden> | thanks |
| 22:48 | <annevk> | jwalden, you did not know? |
| 22:48 | <jwalden> | not at all |
| 22:48 | <jwalden> | maybe tomorrow the DOM WG will reform |
| 22:48 | <jwalden> | and the day after, hell freezes over |
| 22:48 | <annevk> | jwalden, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/ is the list |
| 22:48 | <othermaciej> | the revision is being driven by people who do not have the error handling religion |
| 22:48 | <othermaciej> | the DOM WG has basically been renamed to the Web API WG |
| 22:48 | <othermaciej> | for practical purposes anyway |
| 22:48 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 22:49 | <jwalden> | did it take over DOM core? |
| 22:49 | <jwalden> | if so, then the hell-freezing is going to be bumped up a day |
| 22:50 | <annevk> | jwalden, there's a plan for DOM5 |
| 22:51 | <annevk> | or DOM4, depending on how the politics go |
| 22:51 | <annevk> | (also, not throwing WRONG_DOCUMENT_ERR is likely to become legit ;-) ) |
| 22:51 | <jwalden> | plans aren't quite cutting it yet for me, but I anticipate future happiness |
| 22:52 | <annevk> | we just need an editor, basically |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | needing an editor is the main thing blocking most of the specs on this page: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Companion_specifications |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | as well as the splitting of the html5 spec itself |
| 22:56 | <annevk> | finally, after scanning through 10 es4-discuss e-mails it got to me that RI means reference implementations |
| 22:56 | <annevk> | -s |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | you should've asked here |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | i coulda told you that |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: cool |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | (i should say that when i said "one of us", i really meant "i", but was trying to not volunteer :-) ) |
| 23:12 | jgraham | wonders if anyone has told the pfwg that Fig. 1 in the ARIA spec has accessibility issues... |
| 23:13 | <Dashiva> | jgraham: Kinda like wcag2? :) |
| 23:15 | <jgraham> | Dashiva: What are the issues with the wcag2 document? |
| 23:16 | <jgraham> | (So far I noticed it uses <strong> where HTML5 would suggest <b> but that doesn't seem to important) |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | jgraham: ironically, that's exactly why it should be b instead of strong |
| 23:16 | Hixie | ducks |
| 23:17 | <Dashiva> | jgraham: It's inaccessible to understanding :) |
| 23:19 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Actually I realized it does match the HTML 5 definition of <strong>. Which is slightly disappointing in a world-is-less-ironic-than-I-had-believed way |
| 23:23 | <Hixie> | heh |