| 02:46 | <roc> | hmm |
| 02:46 | <roc> | should we have implemented caretPositionFromPoint with a moz prefix? |
| 03:04 | <TabAtkins> | roc: Probably, yeah. |
| 03:42 | <Hixie> | roc: depends if the spec author is tracking implementations and guaranteeing to not break them, or if the spec author is doing his own thing and hoping for the best |
| 03:43 | <Hixie> | roc: who's the spec author? |
| 03:43 | <Hixie> | (which spec is it?) |
| 04:02 | <roc> | CSSOM Views |
| 04:02 | <roc> | it only just landed, we can get a moz prefix on it |
| 04:03 | <roc> | although I notice that Chrome already shipped caretRangeFromPoint (the obsolete previous version) without a prefix :-( |
| 04:04 | <jamesr> | i argued with someone about prefixing selectionDirection in webkit |
| 04:04 | <jamesr> | i think i lost that argument |
| 04:04 | <jamesr> | know when we shipped it? |
| 04:05 | <roc> | no idea |
| 04:05 | <jamesr> | is it in safari? |
| 04:05 | <roc> | no idea |
| 04:05 | <jamesr> | that's how you can tell if it's old or not |
| 04:05 | <roc> | I suppose I should install Safari here |
| 04:09 | <Hixie> | roc: so long as it changes name it doesn't matter if it's missing teh prefix |
| 04:10 | <roc> | I think it matters a little bit if Web devs think it's a standard |
| 04:10 | <Hixie> | cssom is anne, so speak to him |
| 04:10 | <roc> | yeah, I CCed him on the bug |
| 04:10 | <Hixie> | fwiw, for specs i edit, i prefer browsers to not use prefixes, and then to just keep me closely in the loop of any implementation experiences |
| 04:10 | <roc> | hmm |
| 04:10 | <Hixie> | that allows me to freeze the spec much faster and gets widespread implementations quicker |
| 04:10 | <Hixie> | it also means more care is needed |
| 04:11 | <Hixie> | but that's a fair trade imho |
| 04:11 | <roc> | that's fine I guess as long as you don't freeze prematurely |
| 04:11 | <roc> | it's a delicate dance we have to play here |
| 04:12 | <roc> | Safari 5.1 has caretRangeFromPoint FWIW |
| 04:12 | <erlehmann> | oh you. |
| 04:12 | <Hixie> | roc: indeed |
| 04:13 | <Hixie> | roc: i really don't want to end up doing what css does and have features still vendor prefixed even 5 years after everyone is interoperable modulo prefixes, though |
| 04:14 | <roc> | that is partly the result of W3C processes I think |
| 04:14 | <roc> | and perhaps slow update cycles |
| 04:14 | <jamesr> | there unprefixing is tied to advancing to CR |
| 04:15 | <roc> | I'm a conservative sort of person so I tend to fear the damage of premature freezing more than the inconvenience of a year or two of prefixing |
| 04:15 | <roc> | on the grounds that the former is forever |
| 05:41 | <zewt> | at least prefixing javascript apis is generally less inconvenient than prefixing css, when the prefixed implementations are otherwise compatible |
| 08:15 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: <audio/> is now valid per spec |
| 08:16 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: OK |
| 08:45 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f8b7e4633037/tests/submission/Ms2ger/dom-tree-accessors/document.getElementsByClassName-same.html can't fail (unless it throws) right? |
| 08:46 | <Ms2ger> | Right |
| 08:46 | <Ms2ger> | People didn't want an actual requirement about caching |
| 08:52 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f8b7e4633037/tests/submission/Ms2ger/dom-tree-accessors/document.title-07.html doesn't check "expected title" |
| 08:53 | <Ms2ger> | It's tested in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webapps/file/bc93d42ccbe7/DOMCore/tests/submissions/Ms2ger/DOMImplementation-createHTMLDocument.html |
| 08:54 | <zcorpan> | ah |
| 08:55 | <Ms2ger> | (I moved the entire test to DOM Core, and then David Flanagan complained that I was testing HTML) |
| 08:56 | <zcorpan> | http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f8b7e4633037/tests/submission/Ms2ger/dynamic-markup-insertion/document.open-02.html - is w instanceof Window expected to work? shouldn't it be w instanceof w.Window? |
| 08:56 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, good point |
| 08:57 | <zcorpan> | http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f8b7e4633037/tests/submission/Ms2ger/dynamic-markup-insertion/document.write-02.html has an // XXX |
| 08:58 | <Ms2ger> | An incorrect XXX at that |
| 08:58 | <Ms2ger> | and -ln-02 as well, I guess |
| 08:59 | <zcorpan> | yah |
| 08:59 | <Ms2ger> | At least I'm consistent :) |
| 09:03 | <zcorpan> | http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f8b7e4633037/tests/submission/Ms2ger/dynamic-markup-insertion/innerhtml-03.xhtml shouldn't the span have xmlns? |
| 09:04 | <Ms2ger> | Looks like it |
| 09:05 | <zcorpan> | also, getting innerHTML in xml isn't defined to return only one possible string |
| 09:05 | <zcorpan> | it'd be conforming to use single quotes etc |
| 09:06 | <zcorpan> | i think that's a bug in the spec, but until the spec is fixed... |
| 09:08 | <zcorpan> | http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/file/f8b7e4633037/tests/submission/Ms2ger/dynamic-markup-insertion/innerhtml-01.xhtml could be testing all listed cases that should throw |
| 09:08 | <Ms2ger> | It could be, if I had time :) |
| 09:10 | <zcorpan> | ok i'll let somebody else review the rest |
| 09:10 | <zcorpan> | should i email the above to teh list? |
| 09:14 | jgraham | plans to start the telepathic enhancements for html community group, just so that I can tell people to email teh list |
| 09:15 | jgraham | is apparently incapable of keeping a whole sentence in the third person |
| 09:15 | <Ms2ger> | I pushed http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/rev/d46205148900 |
| 09:46 | <zcorpan> | i like the "remove" algorithm in domcore |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: "If node is a doctype and either parent has a doctype child that is not child, or an element is preceding child." seems like the paragraph isn't complete. http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html#concept-node-replace |
| 10:17 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan, would you like it better with s/If node/If child/? |
| 10:21 | <MikeSmith> | foolip, zcorpan - <audio></audio> validator fix checked in |
| 10:21 | <MikeSmith> | thanks for the heads-up |
| 10:25 | <foolip> | MikeSmith, is it live somewhere? |
| 10:27 | <MikeSmith> | foolip: not yet, but I can make it live at w3.org/html/check if you want |
| 10:27 | <foolip> | that'd be nice |
| 10:27 | <MikeSmith> | OK |
| 10:27 | <MikeSmith> | gimme a couple minutes |
| 10:30 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: i'd like it better if it ended with "throw exception blah blah" |
| 10:30 | <Ms2ger> | Eh |
| 10:30 | <Ms2ger> | Right |
| 10:31 | Ms2ger | blames annevk |
| 10:31 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: nice |
| 10:32 | <Ms2ger> | Man, how many substeps does this algorithm have? |
| 10:36 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan, fixed, thanks |
| 10:39 | <MikeSmith> | foolip: OK, pushed now to http://www.w3.org/html/check |
| 10:39 | <foolip> | MikeSmith, seems to work, thanks! |
| 10:40 | <MikeSmith> | np |
| 10:41 | <MikeSmith> | foolip: btw, when building I'm now getting some messages emitted about schema errors for some microdata stuff |
| 10:41 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., Reference to undefined pattern “common.attrs.microdata.itemid” |
| 10:41 | <MikeSmith> | oh, I think I know why that is |
| 10:42 | <foolip> | MikeSmith, hmm, I didn't add or remove anything with itemid, just tweaked its definition I think |
| 10:43 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, I'm getting the same message for all the aria attributes, so it's not related to specific change |
| 10:44 | <MikeSmith> | I think it's just because of have some stuff in my workspace that I need to update |
| 10:44 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, I'll figure it out |
| 11:04 | <zcorpan> | hmm. XMLHttpRequestUpload can also get events |
| 13:29 | <ooga-booga> | im all about the hypertext..... |
| 16:30 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 16:33 | <Hixie> | man, you get up way too early |
| 16:39 | <jgraham> | Alternative theory: You are too cheery in the morning |
| 16:39 | <Hixie> | well that makes no sense |
| 16:39 | <Hixie> | how can you be too cheery |
| 16:39 | <jgraham> | Alternative alternative theory: You are actually a sociopath |
| 16:39 | <Hixie> | cheery is good! |
| 16:42 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, no, that's me |
| 16:46 | <Philip`> | Surely that's jgraham? |
| 16:46 | <Ms2ger> | Well no, jgraham is just a doctor |
| 17:00 | dglazkov | missed an excellent opportunity to troll. :( |
| 17:01 | <Ms2ger> | dglazkov, very much unlike you |
| 17:01 | <dglazkov> | I know, right! |
| 17:02 | <dglazkov> | ^^^ should probably be "I know, right?!" |
| 17:43 | <karlcow> | http://stiern.com/articles/usability/usability-in-icons/ |
| 17:43 | <zewt> | icons, the bane of usability |
| 17:48 | <Ms2ger> | "Suggesting new feature: Accessible Image tag for Visually Impaired" |
| 17:49 | <TabAtkins> | Ms2ger: Specifically, they're asking for the ability to specify an alternate embossing-friendly image. |
| 18:06 | <dglazkov> | what's a good definition of the "Web Platform" that I could link to? I see lots of use of the term, but not a good definition we can use. |
| 18:06 | <nimbu> | http://platform.html5.org/ is the best I know but it is not a definition :P |
| 18:07 | <dglazkov> | maybe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform |
| 18:07 | <dglazkov> | nimbu: that could work |
| 18:08 | <karlcow> | http://www.w3.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform |
| 18:08 | <karlcow> | hmmm I should add one to the wiki |
| 18:15 | <karlcow> | be free to improve it |
| 18:15 | <karlcow> | The Open Web Platform is the collection of open (royalty-free) technologies which enables the Web. Using the Open Web Platform, everyone has the right and the ability to implement a software component of the Web without requiring any approvals or waiving license fees. — http://www.w3.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform |
| 18:16 | <zewt> | everyone has the ability? |
| 18:16 | <zewt> | heh |
| 18:16 | <dglazkov> | ability but not capacity |
| 18:17 | <zewt> | ability means capacity |
| 18:17 | <zewt> | not permission, heh |
| 18:17 | <dglazkov> | dur |
| 18:17 | <dglazkov> | word smithing is hard |
| 18:17 | <Philip`> | "legal ability"? |
| 18:17 | <Philip`> | The legal perspective seems like a pretty boring one to view it from, though |
| 18:18 | <karlcow> | pardon my French :) |
| 18:19 | <zewt> | well, it's boring to people who don't care about "open" to begin with :) |
| 18:19 | <karlcow> | maybe cut ability |
| 18:20 | <karlcow> | ability is cut |
| 18:20 | <dglazkov> | zewt: wow, internet has everything in it: http://www.ehow.com/how_4486601_use-words-capacity-ability-correctly.html |
| 18:23 | <zewt> | gmail scrolling header hack is eeeevil |
| 18:26 | <Philip`> | There's a lot more stuff that is open but not part of the web platform (like PHP and .NET and MJPEG and PDF and VRML and VML etc), than stuff that is not open but is part of the web platform (Flash, maybe H.264) |
| 18:27 | <Philip`> | so the "web platform" part seems more important and distinctive than the "open" part |
| 18:27 | <zewt> | at least nobody's calling it the "free open web platform" |
| 18:27 | <Ms2ger> | gif :) |
| 18:28 | <Philip`> | Surely that'd have to be the Free Libre Open Web Platform |
| 18:28 | <Philip`> | FLOWP is a nice enough acronym, too |
| 18:32 | <Ms2ger> | Leave the web out: "FLOP" |
| 19:00 | <karlcow> | There's a lot more people on the platform but not part of the web platform (like Paul and Dotty and Meg and Peter and Vince and Veronica etc), … |
| 19:46 | <dglazkov> | how could I use progress element in Mediawiki. AryehGregor, you know everything about that, right? |
| 19:47 | <AryehGregor> | dglazkov, it's not whitelisted. You'd have to hack includes/Sanitizer.php. |
| 19:47 | <dglazkov> | AryehGregor: do I need to first hack into whatwg.org? |
| 19:47 | <AryehGregor> | I guess. |
| 19:48 | <gsnedders> | dglazkov: That shouldn't be that hard, should it? |
| 19:48 | <dglazkov> | gsnedders: :) |
| 19:48 | <dglazkov> | I know a cool hacker who can do this |
| 19:48 | <dglazkov> | Hixie: ^^^^ :) |
| 19:51 | AryehGregor | could also do it, in theory . . . |
| 19:51 | <AryehGregor> | Local hacks are no fun, though. |
| 19:51 | <AryehGregor> | They'll break as soon as you upgrade. |
| 19:51 | <AryehGregor> | In theory I could write and commit a proper patch, but that would take time. |
| 19:52 | <AryehGregor> | As usual, I am Hixie's slave and will do his bidding on this matter. |
| 19:56 | <Hixie> | wait, what? |
| 19:57 | <Hixie> | what are we talking about |
| 19:57 | <Ms2ger`> | Hixie, MediaWiki hacking |
| 19:58 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: hey mad you do whatever you think is best, i don't know nothing about this wiki thing |
| 19:58 | <Hixie> | er |
| 19:58 | <Hixie> | "hey man" |
| 19:59 | <smaug____> | :) |
| 20:12 | <shepazu> | I am utterly confused by Powers' stance… I'd think that making HTML more modular, and doing the work in an even more open forum still within W3C and with a good patent policy, would be a clear win… AryehGregor, did you step on her pet gerbil or something? |
| 20:12 | <AryehGregor> | shepazu, most of us find Shelley a little hard to deal with at times. |
| 20:13 | <Ms2ger`> | shepazu, Utter confusion is pretty much my default feeling when dealing with her |
| 20:13 | <shepazu> | personalities aside, just the particulars of the topic seem sensible prima facie |
| 20:14 | <shepazu> | oh, well |
| 20:15 | <shepazu> | I suppose I should stop "lecturing" people to correct basic misinformation on Community Groups, and get back to real work |
| 20:15 | <Ms2ger`> | xkcd.com/386 |
| 20:16 | <shepazu> | indeed |
| 20:29 | AryehGregor | wonders if WebKit people will get annoyed at all the editing bugs he's updating |
| 20:42 | <Hixie> | heycam|away: ping - wanted to ask you if there was an easy way to add an event handler attribute to something that is currently defined as a Foo[] |
| 20:42 | <Hixie> | (in webidl, obviously, not in js) |
| 20:53 | <AryehGregor> | TabAtkins, explanation for <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13841>;? |
| 21:50 | <zewt> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011JulSep/0942.html heh again |
| 21:50 | <zewt> | should be a faq about that somewhere, it seems to be by a large margin the most common misunderstanding on the platform |
| 22:14 | <jgraham> | zewt: Are we looking at the same bug? |
| 22:23 | <zewt> | looks like the same old "someone doesn't know that events aren't dispatched until you return to the event loop", which it seems at least one person a month on the list or tracker doesn't get |
| 22:25 | <jgraham> | Well I guess. But it is a bit complex and hardly seems like the most common misunderstanding on the platform |
| 22:25 | <zewt> | it's one of the very few that I've seen over and over and over again |
| 22:26 | <jgraham> | I mean more common misunderstandings are things like "my XHTML doctype is somehow meaningful" |
| 22:26 | <jgraham> | Although maybe that particular one is going away a bit these days |
| 22:27 | <jgraham> | But sure, write a blog post or add it to the WHATWG FAQ or something |
| 22:40 | <gsnedders> | zewt: I know that… But I don't know when you return to the event loop. |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | foolip: yt? |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | should cues that the browser had to skip because of being too busy or because the cue was too short for the UA to get to it before it was already obsolete still fire events? |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | i'm thinking yes |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | especially pause-on-exit cues |
| 23:16 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Yeah, I think it should. |