| 00:45 | <zewt> | annevk: could use your input on the FileReader.abort() thread; i think treating XHR as precedent for Progress Events behavior would make a serious mess of every API using it in the future |
| 00:45 | <zewt> | also i have to tab twice to get to you; curse you, annacc |
| 00:45 | <annacc> | zewt: huh? what'd I do? |
| 00:46 | <TabAtkins> | Aw man, good thing I haven't had to talk to annevk yet today. ^_^ |
| 01:21 | <jamesr_> | Hixie, the behavior you described above (scale(0.00001) does a different thing in WebKit w.r.t. globalCompositeOperation than scale(0)) is just a webkit bug |
| 01:21 | <jamesr_> | in fact it'd be great if you could file that |
| 01:21 | <jamesr_> | ben wells has been fixing a lot of our GCO canvas bugs in webkit |
| 08:26 | <zcorpan> | http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?782709-Fire-HTML5-validation-onblur - author experience with WF2 |
| 09:12 | <annevk> | zewt, I noticed that thread, and decided I rather play Gears of War than look into it |
| 09:12 | <annevk> | I guess I should now though |
| 09:36 | <zcorpan> | AryehGregor: would be nice if http://w3c-test.org/html/tests/approved/base64.html tested argument type conversion, like null, undefined, 1, {toString:function(){return "foo"}} |
| 09:38 | <zcorpan> | AryehGregor: oh, seems it tests undefined already, but not null |
| 10:08 | <annevk> | zewt, replied |
| 10:42 | <annevk> | zewt, btw, you had some other proposals for changing event handling in XHR as well right? |
| 10:42 | <annevk> | zewt, I should prolly get to those |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | http://joehewitt.com/post/web-technologies-need-an-owner/ obvious troll is obvious? |
| 11:15 | <annevk> | according to brucel it's not |
| 11:15 | <annevk> | glad he has no idea how to get there then :p |
| 11:16 | <MikeSmith> | "I can easily see a world in which Web usage falls to insignificant levels compared to Android, iOS, and Windows, and becomes a footnote in history. " |
| 11:16 | <annevk> | "Let's face facts: the Web will never be the dominant platform." |
| 11:17 | <annevk> | most people browse the web on their computer... |
| 11:18 | <Rik`> | it seems a very mobile oriented vision |
| 11:28 | <jgraham> | annevk: I thought the distressing thing was "It would help if all the rendering engines but one were to die" |
| 11:29 | <annevk> | yeah not really sure why that piece of writing gets attention |
| 11:29 | <annevk> | guess software monocultures are gaining popularity again |
| 11:29 | <annevk> | yearning for IE6 |
| 11:30 | <Rik`> | annevk: maybe also because of the person writing it? |
| 11:31 | <jgraham> | Based on the fact that he is a person on the internet I will wildly speculate that he is a free market libertarian (that could just be vocal people on reddit/hacker news/slashdot/etc. though). Which makes the position that less competition would improve things a bit strange. |
| 11:32 | <annevk> | Rik`, he's famous? |
| 11:32 | <Rik`> | annevk: creator of Firebug |
| 11:32 | <jgraham> | And one of the original Firefox leads |
| 11:32 | <annevk> | I see |
| 11:33 | <hsivonen> | where could I find a list of Opera releases and their release dates? |
| 11:33 | <jgraham> | http://www.opera.com/docs/history/ |
| 11:34 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: thanks. oops. I already had a look at that page and failed to scroll to the right part... |
| 11:35 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: I seem to remember him writing something in a similar vein a year or two ago |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/24374884@N08/6171485113/ |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | hahaha |
| 11:43 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: nice |
| 11:45 | <hsivonen> | so Joe Hewitt would like to have Chromium as the only Web platform impl? |
| 11:46 | <hsivonen> | while Chromium is shipping ActiveG--a competitor for the Web Platform |
| 11:49 | <MikeSmith> | I think one of the hallmarks of these kinds of postings are their complete lack of any humor |
| 11:49 | <MikeSmith> | well, intentional humor at least |
| 11:50 | <Rik`> | also, with ChromeOS, Boot2Gecko, Windows8 and others, the web is gaining pretty cool capabilities "in a timely manner" |
| 11:51 | <annevk> | http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-xbl-intents |
| 11:51 | <hsivonen> | Rik`: well, B2G and Windows 8 aren't shipping products yet |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | I would love it btw if someone could tweak the templates of the blog some more |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | and then especially the links to other posts |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | they should appear at the bottom |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | and all the metadata for an individual post could be trimmed a lot too |
| 11:52 | <Rik`> | also, when we see something like PhoneGap to bring those capabilities to simply cross platform development |
| 11:53 | <annevk> | I guess I can do it myself |
| 11:53 | <Philip`> | "[it] is impossible to create a platform with a coherent, unified vision the way Apple has with Cocoa or the way Python has with Guido" - Python created Guido? That sounds like it would involve interestingly paradoxical time travel |
| 11:53 | <hsivonen> | PhoneGap doesn't run code from the Web, though |
| 11:53 | <Rik`> | *simplify |
| 11:54 | <jgraham> | Philip`: import timetravel |
| 11:54 | <Rik`> | hsivonen: you can run code from the web but that will result in a bad user experience |
| 11:55 | <hsivonen> | Rik`: surely not on iOS? |
| 11:55 | <Rik`> | hum yes you can |
| 11:55 | <Rik`> | since you are using Apple JS engine |
| 11:56 | <hsivonen> | Rik`: does Apple let you run remote JS code if you use Apple's JS engine? |
| 11:56 | <Rik`> | I think so |
| 11:56 | <hsivonen> | do you then have to embed the whole WebKit? |
| 11:57 | <hsivonen> | can you call PhoneGap's device APIs from remote code? |
| 11:57 | <Rik`> | I've met some people creating apps with Phonegap and they had no problem to put those on the App store |
| 11:58 | <hsivonen> | Rik`: are you sure there isn't a PhoneGap part and an embedded WebKit that doesn't have PhoneGap APIs inside the PhoneGap part? |
| 11:58 | <hsivonen> | Rik`: if Apple let people run remote code using JSC but without WebKit, it would be a huge loophole in their lock-down policy |
| 11:59 | <Rik`> | I don't know the exact details |
| 11:59 | <hsivonen> | details matter :-) |
| 11:59 | <Rik`> | but people running remote code mostly create Phonegap apps to have them listed in the store, not really for the extra capabilities |
| 12:00 | <tomasf> | JSC isn't a public API on iOS |
| 12:00 | <hsivonen> | I'm quite sad that people treat the lack of a unified store front on the Web as a bug |
| 12:00 | <hsivonen> | tomasf: well, then |
| 12:01 | <Rik`> | anyway, my first point was about the existence of Phonegap and similar systems to use web technologies |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | he works on Firefox first, then suggests standardizing on Chromium, something which did not exist when Firefox was there |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | i mean what the fuck |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | i don't even see how any of this makes sense to him |
| 12:07 | <karlcow> | it doesn't make sense. at all. |
| 12:07 | <MikeSmith> | sure it does |
| 12:08 | <MikeSmith> | one browser engine, one person to make all the decisions |
| 12:08 | <karlcow> | maybe in a dadaist way. |
| 12:08 | <MikeSmith> | that's one way to describe it, I guess |
| 12:08 | <karlcow> | I tried to follow the web is not the web but it is the web but it is not the web. |
| 12:09 | <karlcow> | and I have been lost |
| 12:09 | <MikeSmith> | that's Gertrude Stein you're quoting, man |
| 12:10 | <MikeSmith> | this seems more like the Futurists who aligned themselves with Mussolini |
| 12:16 | <hsivonen> | is http://mobilehtml5.org/ right about not having CORS checked for Firefox for Android? |
| 12:16 | <hsivonen> | or File API |
| 12:16 | <annevk> | wc? |
| 12:17 | <hsivonen> | wc?? |
| 12:18 | <annevk> | wrong channel |
| 12:19 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I thought people here would know |
| 12:38 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: yt? |
| 12:39 | zcorpan | guesses wrong time of the day |
| 12:44 | <hsivonen> | so 3 vendors are trying to do what's on the high level the idea of Web apps providing services to each other |
| 12:44 | <hsivonen> | Mozilla's Web Activities, Google's Web Intents and Microsoft's Contracts |
| 12:45 | <Ms2ger> | Opera did it first |
| 12:48 | <hsivonen> | Ms2ger: I can't tell if you are joking or not |
| 12:48 | <Ms2ger> | I happen to be |
| 12:52 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: If you had been talking about "provide access to device APIs" you would get a similar story |
| 12:53 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: except in that case, Opera really did it first |
| 12:53 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: That was the unspoken subtext :) |
| 12:53 | <hsivonen> | is Opera Platform still alive? |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | does anyone follow web-perf? |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | why did it remove references to HTML fetch? |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | that seems like a mistake given what they define... |
| 13:02 | <annevk> | is this one of those plh "lets define less so we can follow The Process" inspired tactics? |
| 14:02 | <hsivonen> | annevk: for HTML in XHR, should I disable user-set charset pref and chardet? |
| 14:03 | <hsivonen> | annevk: i.e. default to Windows-1252 in the absence of an explicit declaration? |
| 14:03 | <hsivonen> | annevk: also, I think I shouldn't try to support the charset restart with late <meta> |
| 14:04 | <hsivonen> | does any browser support text/html in XHR yet? |
| 14:04 | <hsivonen> | honoring <meta> for responseText could break something, BTW |
| 14:07 | <zcorpan> | can we be radical and force utf-8? :-) |
| 14:09 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I don't know. maybe! |
| 14:13 | <annevk> | hsivonen, Gecko does not honor <meta>? |
| 14:13 | <annevk> | hsivonen, WebKit does iirc |
| 14:13 | <hsivonen> | annevk: for responseText? |
| 14:13 | <annevk> | yes |
| 14:13 | <annevk> | hsivonen, XHR just defers to HTML for the whole thing |
| 14:13 | <annevk> | note that for CSS it doesn't |
| 14:13 | <hsivonen> | annevk: does WebKit support text/html parsing for responseXML? |
| 14:14 | <annevk> | no |
| 14:14 | <annevk> | but it does for decoding |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | aargh. why does WebKit do something weird like that? |
| 14:14 | <annevk> | once you support an HTML parser for responseXML it only makes sense, no? |
| 14:14 | <hsivonen> | annevk: does WebKit apply heuristic detectors and user settings? |
| 14:14 | <annevk> | would be weird if they decode differently |
| 14:15 | <hsivonen> | annevk: once you do, sure. before you do, no |
| 14:15 | <annevk> | well if that's the plan better to not have to break compat |
| 14:15 | <hsivonen> | so do I now have to write test cases to reverse engineer WebKit? |
| 14:16 | <hsivonen> | I though we had specs for this |
| 14:16 | <annevk> | afaik WebKit uses the same codepath |
| 14:16 | <hsivonen> | annevk: just deferring to HTML is questionable when this part of HTML has legacy-oriented optional features |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | but I don't know all the details and it has been ages |
| 14:17 | <hsivonen> | annevk: same as what? |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | HTML parser |
| 14:17 | <hsivonen> | annevk: with user setting-dependent charset defaults and heuristic detection? |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | it seems weird that an HTML page loaded in a browsing context would decode differently when loaded through XMLHttpRequest |
| 14:17 | <hsivonen> | annevk: with inheritance from parent? |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | of course that is already the case for e.g. text/css... |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 14:18 | <zcorpan> | also the case with text/javascript, <script> vs Worker |
| 14:18 | <hsivonen> | annevk: it also seems weird for newly-introduced UIless API to have its behavior magically change when you run a Japanese localization |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | hsivonen, responseText is not new |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | ok wait |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | I don't mind changing this to something that we (you) think is better |
| 14:20 | <annevk> | At the time I wrote this text I didn't know the HTML parser came with a bunch of preference flags |
| 14:20 | <annevk> | we could do ;charset= <meta> fallback to UTF-8 if it's decided that is better |
| 14:21 | <hsivonen> | aaarrrghh |
| 14:21 | <hsivonen> | Gecko runs the heuristic detector for responseText |
| 14:21 | <hsivonen> | why, oh, why |
| 14:21 | <hsivonen> | somebody was feeling "helpful"? |
| 14:21 | <annevk> | only for text/html? |
| 14:21 | <hsivonen> | annevk: for non-XML |
| 14:22 | <annevk> | o_O |
| 14:22 | <zcorpan> | to make you bald earlier? |
| 14:22 | <hsivonen> | ooops |
| 14:22 | <hsivonen> | no |
| 14:22 | <hsivonen> | I'm seeing things that aren't there |
| 14:22 | <hsivonen> | sorry |
| 14:22 | hsivonen | misread some allcaps stuff |
| 14:23 | zcorpan | pictures hsivonen instantly regaining bouffant hair (with apologies to brucel) |
| 14:23 | <hsivonen> | so Gecko is reading charset from HTTP or falling back to UTF-8 |
| 14:24 | <hsivonen> | which suggests text/html should default to UTF-8 instead of Windows-1252 or something locale-dependent |
| 14:25 | <hsivonen> | I think I'm going to skip the legacy craziness for text/html in XHR |
| 14:25 | timeless | chuckles |
| 14:26 | <hsivonen> | I was so afraid I'd see shocking contract ids that I misread non-shocking contract ids |
| 14:26 | <annevk> | please email public-webapps |
| 14:26 | <hsivonen> | annevk: will do |
| 14:26 | <annevk> | and maybe file bugs on HTML5 if the parser does not make it clear you can use it such ways |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | would be great to say "parse the HTML without legacy with UTF-8 as fallback" |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | or some such |
| 14:27 | <timeless> | annevk: i'm sorry to discover that you don't know the history of some of your competitors :( |
| 14:27 | <timeless> | i don't think his fears are unwarranted fwiw |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | ? |
| 14:28 | <timeless> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hewitt_%28programmer%29 |
| 14:29 | timeless | used to work on DOMI |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | ehm I contributed quite a bit to Gecko 2003-2005, stilll do... |
| 14:29 | <timeless> | (which at this point is but a footnote) |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | I just didn't know Joe Hewitt |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | big deal |
| 14:31 | <hsivonen> | annevk: email sent |
| 14:31 | <timeless> | hrm, he was on hiatus from core then https://www.ohloh.net/p/mozilla/contributors/19327463000 |
| 14:32 | <timeless> | anyway, people were complaining that facebook's ui had changed recently |
| 14:32 | <timeless> | and i was wondering what people were talking about... because i was using a native facebook app :) |
| 14:36 | <hsivonen> | timeless: don't you believe in the Web? |
| 14:48 | <timeless> | "I want to believe" |
| 14:48 | <RobbertAtWork> | I was waiting for you to say that |
| 14:48 | <timeless> | do i get a +1 for saying it? |
| 14:48 | <RobbertAtWork> | def |
| 14:48 | <timeless> | (or a ++?) |
| 14:48 | <timeless> | (sorry, i was afk) |
| 14:49 | <timeless> | but, the mobile apps tend to have features which i like better, and my browser costs too much |
| 14:49 | <timeless> | in this case, the fact that the mobile app doesn't update to get the latest and greatest ui rewrite is a feature |
| 14:49 | <Kellen`> | hsivonen: when validator.nu finds an invalid entity reference, it would be useful to report what the entity was somewhere. Right now, it's displayed in extract, but truncated if it's longer than 4 characters. |
| 14:49 | <timeless> | the mobile web site otoh would |
| 14:50 | <timeless> | hsivonen: oh, that reminds me, i need to complain to our web browser team |
| 14:50 | <timeless> | the gmail tablet ui recently added support for multiple accounts |
| 14:50 | <annevk> | oh hey RobbertAtWork! |
| 14:50 | <timeless> | but i can't get it to work |
| 14:50 | <annevk> | welkom |
| 14:50 | <timeless> | Kellen`++ |
| 14:50 | <Kellen`> | Kellen`-- |
| 14:50 | <timeless> | a lot of error reporting is unfortunately like that :( |
| 14:51 | <timeless> | ok: hsivonen +1 for reporting the complete entity :) |
| 14:51 | <karlcow> | I do not believe. :) |
| 14:53 | <Kellen`> | timeless: yeah. i'm trying to ignore our custom entities but it's hard when you can't find the names anywhere in the error output |
| 14:54 | <timeless> | Kellen`: "ignore"? |
| 14:54 | <timeless> | if you have &custent1; &custent2; how would you ignore 2? |
| 14:55 | <Kellen`> | timeless: well, it'd be potentially buggy due to the truncating. since 1 and 2 both look like "&custe" in the error output |
| 14:56 | <hsivonen> | custom entities in text/html? |
| 14:57 | <timeless> | Kellen`: right, but are you basically teaching a templater to fill in the entities so that the next iteration can report another entity to fill in? |
| 14:57 | <Kellen`> | it's not "real" html; it goes through a filtering/parsing stage before presentation, but everything else besides the entities should be valid |
| 14:57 | <hsivonen> | I see |
| 14:57 | <timeless> | oh right, validator.nu isn't stop-on-first-fault |
| 14:58 | <timeless> | sorry, i'm so used to gecko's xml parser |
| 14:58 | <hsivonen> | the extractor has no clue that it's extracting a failed entity reference |
| 14:58 | <timeless> | manilla-screens-of-death |
| 14:58 | <timeless> | (with blood lettering) |
| 14:58 | <Kellen`> | background: there are characters that unicode doesn't contain that we need to represent |
| 14:58 | <timeless> | klingon? :) |
| 14:58 | <Kellen`> | hsivonen: ah... so it doesn't continue until it finds a semicolon |
| 14:58 | <hsivonen> | Tengwar? |
| 14:58 | <hsivonen> | Kellen`: nope |
| 14:59 | <Kellen`> | timeless: chemical binding symbols, a few music symbols |
| 14:59 | <Kellen`> | hsivonen: is there a way to configure the extract length? |
| 15:01 | <AryehGregor> | zcorpan, see line 241 of the source: // WebIDL tests. TODO: Add null once the spec on that is clear. |
| 15:01 | <AryehGregor> | At the time I wrote the tests, it wasn't clear what the correct default behavior was for null. |
| 15:01 | <RobbertAtWork> | annevk: hey, thanks |
| 15:03 | <AryehGregor> | zcorpan, I didn't think of an object with toString at the time, since I didn't know enough ES. |
| 15:04 | <zcorpan> | AryehGregor: k |
| 15:04 | <AryehGregor> | zcorpan, it looks like everything treats null as the empty string, for both btoa and atob. |
| 15:04 | <hsivonen> | Kellen`: the length of the extract seem hard-coded, but it's possible to change the hard-coding |
| 15:04 | <Ms2ger> | We should fix that, then |
| 15:05 | <zcorpan> | AryehGregor: the correct behavior should be to stringify to "null" |
| 15:05 | <AryehGregor> | Okay, but nobody does that. |
| 15:05 | <zcorpan> | AryehGregor: we just changed it in opera |
| 15:05 | <AryehGregor> | Should we test for it anyway and file bugs against Gecko and WebKit? |
| 15:05 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 15:05 | <AryehGregor> | Okay. |
| 15:05 | <zcorpan> | thanks |
| 15:06 | <Kellen`> | hsivonen: okay, i might go that route. if you are already looking at the source, in what class should I look? |
| 15:06 | <AryehGregor> | So the current strategy is we try to convert everything to stringify null to "null" except where we have specific evidence web compat demands otherwise? |
| 15:06 | <hsivonen> | Kellen`: how long do the extracts need to be? |
| 15:06 | <Ms2ger> | Want to fix as well? |
| 15:06 | <hsivonen> | Kellen`: SourceCode.java, line 178 |
| 15:06 | <Kellen`> | hsivonen: for my use-case only like 8 characters after the error-location (the &) |
| 15:06 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, no, because it's not in my contract and so I'm not being paid for it. I'm only being paid to do specs and tests. |
| 15:06 | <hsivonen> | Kellen`: ok. it's now 6 |
| 15:06 | <Ms2ger> | CC me, then |
| 15:08 | <zcorpan> | doesn't window.top need to be unforgeable for flash "origin" checks to not be bogus? |
| 15:08 | <Ms2ger> | Hah, Flash |
| 15:09 | <annevk> | AryehGregor, that is the strategy yes |
| 15:09 | <Kellen`> | hsivonen: ok thanks. not sure i'll change it as it means having our own patches to apply to new versions |
| 15:10 | <hsivonen> | Kellen`: I'll change it |
| 15:10 | <Kellen`> | hsivonen: awesome, thanks! |
| 15:10 | <RobbertAtWork> | annevk: "… Welcome to another WHATWG Weekly." great intro, deserves one of those low radio voices |
| 15:10 | <AryehGregor> | zcorpan, do you know what the procedure is for updating approved tests? |
| 15:10 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, done. |
| 15:11 | <Ms2ger> | Thanks |
| 15:11 | <Ms2ger> | Make the change in submissions/, and I'll review it |
| 15:11 | <AryehGregor> | Okay. |
| 15:12 | <zcorpan> | AryehGregor: no idea |
| 15:12 | AryehGregor | will follow Ms2ger's advice |
| 15:17 | <hsivonen> | do engines other than Gecko do magic sniffin on the doctype passed to createDocument to determine what kind of doc is returned? |
| 15:18 | <zcorpan> | i think opera might do that. possibly to comply with acid3! |
| 15:18 | <hsivonen> | Kellen`: landed and deployed |
| 15:18 | <hsivonen> | Acid3... |
| 15:20 | <Kellen`> | hsivonen: thanks, solves my problem for the moment. long-term it might be worth it to report things that look like entities; scan from the & until you hit a semicolon or an invalid character |
| 15:20 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I don't see Acid3 requiring that |
| 15:21 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: iirc it required HTMLDocument |
| 15:21 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: yeah, but that can be achieved by making all Documents HTMLDocuments |
| 15:22 | <timeless> | has everyone here updated their Flash? |
| 15:22 | <timeless> | :) |
| 15:22 | <zcorpan> | sure |
| 15:22 | <zcorpan> | opera doesn't do that yet, though |
| 15:23 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: autoinstalls it and then leaves you with security holes? |
| 15:23 | <AryehGregor> | Ooh, nasty. |
| 15:23 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: Gecko seems to even tweak the HTMLness bit depending on doctype :-( |
| 15:24 | <zcorpan> | dunno if opera does that |
| 15:28 | <annevk> | hsivonen, that DOCTYPE stuff is non-conforming per DOM4 |
| 15:31 | <hsivonen> | annevk: did you test that Gecko is the only engine to do it? how did you decide to make it non-conforming? |
| 15:31 | <zewt> | annevk: the main thing I'm concerned with in that thread is whether we really want to be moving XHR's Progress Events-related weirdness into new specs |
| 15:31 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/rev/17c9331f8fa8 |
| 15:32 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, lame. |
| 15:32 | <AryehGregor> | It gives a bad diff. |
| 15:32 | <AryehGregor> | I used hg cp, and hg diff showed me the diff from the source file. |
| 15:32 | <AryehGregor> | Oh well. |
| 15:32 | <AryehGregor> | You should be able to figure out the diff yourself, I guess. |
| 15:32 | <zewt> | i think all new APIs should follow both the invariants sicking mentioned, and the one I mentioned (never interleaving events, eg. no loadstart ... loadstart ... loadend ... loadend) |
| 15:33 | <zewt> | even if that means being inconsistent with XHR if it's too late to change XHR |
| 15:33 | <Ms2ger> | AryehGregor, yeah, W3C's hgweb doesn't get that, apparently |
| 15:34 | <timeless> | Ms2ger: do we need to file a bug /contact team to get hgweb updated? |
| 15:36 | <Ms2ger> | Would be nice |
| 15:37 | <zewt> | (also no dropped loadends, of course) |
| 15:39 | <timeless> | hrm |
| 15:39 | <annevk> | hsivonen, I only remember some vague discussion that it was probably that could be changed, especially in the light of all Documents implementing all interfaces |
| 15:40 | <timeless> | diff -c shows me the same thing as hgweb |
| 15:40 | <annevk> | probable* |
| 15:40 | <timeless> | but diff -r 310 -r 460 shows me what AryehGregor expected |
| 15:40 | <timeless> | so, that might not be a bug, so much as a lack of a feature to "do what i want" |
| 15:41 | <timeless> | it's basically "diff-follow-copies" |
| 15:43 | <hsivonen> | annevk: ok |
| 15:47 | <hsivonen> | annevk: boo. XHR2 still has a synchronous code example |
| 15:53 | <annevk> | hsivonen, where? |
| 15:55 | <hsivonen> | annevk: in Introduction |
| 15:55 | <annevk> | none of those is synchronous |
| 15:55 | <annevk> | for synchronous the third parameter of open() needs to be false |
| 15:56 | <hsivonen> | annevk: oh, sorry |
| 15:56 | <hsivonen> | annevk: confusing to have an optional parameter default to ture |
| 15:56 | <hsivonen> | true |
| 15:56 | <hsivonen> | annevk: do you have a test suite for text/html in XHR? |
| 15:57 | <annevk> | http://w3c-test.org/webapps/XMLHttpRequest/tests/submissions/Opera/responsetext-decoding.htm has some tests |
| 15:57 | <hsivonen> | annevk: thanks |
| 15:58 | <annevk> | hmm only one actually |
| 15:58 | <annevk> | but it's trivial to add more |
| 16:04 | <zewt> | annevk: also, I don't understand the question about open()'s readystatechange (it does get fired, but it's not a Progress Events event) |
| 16:06 | <annevk> | it means things are confusing |
| 16:07 | <zewt> | that is true :) |
| 16:07 | <zewt> | (but it's send() that's throwing that exception, not open(), FWIW) |
| 16:08 | <annevk> | ? |
| 16:08 | <annevk> | open() never throws |
| 16:08 | <annevk> | send() throws, but can be terminated by invoking open() |
| 16:09 | <zewt> | in the FF6 case you were responding to, I mean |
| 16:10 | <zewt> | afk a couple |
| 16:11 | <annevk> | what I meant was that send() can be terminated too |
| 16:11 | <annevk> | so you have the same event issue there |
| 16:11 | <annevk> | not just with abort() |
| 16:20 | <zewt> | annevk: it's a bit confusing that send() says "can only be terminated ... after returned", but abort() says "terminate send()"--they seem contradictory if abort() is called during send()'s readystatechange |
| 16:23 | <woef> | Why is there no "not" operator in the css attribute selector spec. Performance? |
| 16:24 | <Ms2ger> | :not()? |
| 16:27 | <woef> | So .class1:not([class*=" "]) targets all elements that only contains the class "class1"? |
| 16:27 | <Ms2ger> | Unless you have class=" class1 ", I guess |
| 16:27 | <Ms2ger> | Or class="class1(tab)class2" |
| 16:27 | <woef> | Good point. |
| 16:28 | <gsnedders> | or LF |
| 16:28 | <annevk> | zewt, that note is non-normative right and is mostly correct... |
| 16:28 | <woef> | I guess yelling at some CMS guys should fix that though, if it happens. |
| 16:28 | <zewt> | "mostly correct" is bad, even if it's non-normative :) |
| 16:29 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 16:29 | <annevk> | should remove that note |
| 16:29 | <woef> | Is there any other (easier?) way to target single class instances? |
| 16:29 | <zewt> | it's really confusing to have algorithms terminated from outside without it going through a concrete flag or something :( |
| 16:31 | <annevk> | I'm not married to how it is written down now |
| 16:32 | <annevk> | couldn't really think of a better way |
| 16:32 | <Ms2ger> | I doubt such a marriage would be legal |
| 16:32 | <annevk> | and so far nobody really seems to care or pay attention to the spec that much... |
| 16:33 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, you mean, Microsoft doesn't even care enough to block it? :) |
| 16:33 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, per Fox News I'm sure that's feasible in the Netherlands |
| 16:33 | <zewt> | i'm more worried about FileAPI following it as precedent, and every progress events api in the future following suit--having mismatched and nested progress sequences really sucks |
| 16:33 | <woef> | ( *[class="class1"] should work too I guess, and has better browser support ) |
| 16:33 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, sure there's meta debate |
| 16:33 | <Ms2ger> | And there's Björn |
| 16:34 | <zewt> | and/or |
| 16:34 | <annevk> | Ms2ger, he's part of the meta debate it seems given that he's no idea what's produced |
| 17:14 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, will you remember to review my base64 test updates, or should I also send an e-mail requesting review? |
| 17:16 | <Ms2ger> | I'll do it now |
| 17:19 | <Ms2ger> | // WebIDL requires DOMStrings to just be converted using ECMAScript |
| 17:19 | <Ms2ger> | // ToString, which amounts to calling String(), except possibly for null, |
| 17:19 | <Ms2ger> | // which we don't test because it's unclear. |
| 17:26 | <gsnedders> | Unclear how? |
| 17:27 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, will fix, just a minute. |
| 17:27 | <AryehGregor> | gsnedders, it was unclear when I wrote that. |
| 17:27 | <AryehGregor> | Now it's not. |
| 17:50 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html/rev/5e92fcc9015b |
| 18:28 | <Hixie> | is mounir on irc? |
| 18:28 | <annevk> | his nick is volkmar |
| 18:29 | <Hixie> | volkmar: ping |
| 18:29 | <Hixie> | annevk: thanks |
| 18:29 | <volkmar> | Hixie: pong |
| 18:29 | <Hixie> | hey dude |
| 18:29 | <Hixie> | any news on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12255 ? still no bugs? |
| 18:29 | <Hixie> | if so i'm gonna update the spec |
| 18:29 | <volkmar> | no bugs I'm aware of yet |
| 18:29 | <Hixie> | awesome |
| 18:29 | <volkmar> | though, it's in Firefox 7 which means yet in Beta |
| 18:30 | <volkmar> | we can still get bugs reported |
| 18:30 | <Hixie> | sure |
| 18:30 | <Hixie> | but it's been quite a few weeks |
| 18:30 | <Hixie> | so odds are pretty good |
| 18:30 | <volkmar> | hmm, I would not bet on that |
| 18:31 | <volkmar> | it's not uncommon to get some feedback about websites being broken when we release the final version |
| 18:31 | <Hixie> | well it's easy to change back anyway |
| 18:31 | <volkmar> | Hixie: yes ;) |
| 18:31 | <Hixie> | i just wanted to make sure it wasn't a deluge of compat issues :-) |
| 18:32 | <Hixie> | btw i saw your name on the <meter> and <input type=range> bugs in moz bugzilla, any news on those? i'm playing with some stuff that uses them and it's sad when it doesn't work in firefox :-( |
| 18:32 | <volkmar> | <meter> could have been landed some time ago |
| 18:32 | <volkmar> | but there is a a11y issue |
| 18:33 | <volkmar> | I want to fix that before landing |
| 18:33 | <Hixie> | oh what's the issue? anything i can help with? |
| 18:33 | <volkmar> | basically, <meter> implementations assume thet the color is enough to indicate if the value is bad/medium/good |
| 18:34 | <Hixie> | oh there's no "warning!" sound in the screen reader output? |
| 18:34 | <Hixie> | yeah, that's a bit problematic |
| 18:34 | <volkmar> | I believe the issue doesn't only (at all?) apply to screen readers |
| 18:34 | <volkmar> | if you have sight issues you might have a hard time to distinguish the color |
| 18:35 | <Hixie> | oh e.g. colour-blindness issues? |
| 18:35 | <Hixie> | hm, good point |
| 18:36 | <volkmar> | for the moment, I have a patch that adds two arrows, one for low and ane for high |
| 18:36 | <volkmar> | assuming the user will understand where the optimum should be with the context |
| 18:36 | <Hixie> | neat |
| 18:37 | <volkmar> | for <input type=range>, it's a high priority but we don't have anyone working on it right now |
| 18:40 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | no dglazkov? |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | anyway, I did say trimmed |
| 21:56 | <AryehGregor> | Does anyone know what heuristic Chrome uses to decide whether to offer to remember a password? It doesn't seem to want to on my gentest.html page. |
| 21:56 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, my username field has no name. Maybe that's it. |
| 21:58 | <AryehGregor> | There, that seemed to work. |
| 22:40 | <AryehGregor> | Is anyone working on exposing browser implementations of things like SHA1 to JS? |
| 22:40 | <AryehGregor> | It's kind of annoying not to have them sometimes, and a browser implementation would be both trivial to do and ridiculously faster. |
| 22:41 | <Philip`> | Are JS implementations too slow to use in practice? |
| 22:42 | <Philip`> | (Certainly they're slower than C++, but that's not the same thing) |
| 22:43 | <TabAtkins> | They're plenty fast for a lot of things. I use an md5 lib for non-secure hashing. |
| 22:44 | <zewt> | Philip`: there was a thread about that at one point--it's definitely too slow for some use cases, like verifying/syncing bulk data for games |
| 22:48 | <AryehGregor> | Philip`, I'm at least as concerned with convenience as speed. |
| 22:48 | <AryehGregor> | This is something where everyone has access to interoperable implementations anyway, it's just a matter of hooking them up. |
| 22:52 | <annacc> | any gtk experts out there mind helping me with a (probably simple) issue with GNUmakefile.list.am ? |
| 22:53 | <Philip`> | AryehGregor: Surely the most convenient thing would be a .js file you can drop it and that will work with perfect compatibility on all browsers with no effort |
| 22:53 | <AryehGregor> | Philip`, a) the long run counts too, b) I don't personally care about old browsers. |
| 22:53 | <AryehGregor> | The specific use-case I was thinking of only needs to run in Aurora and Chrome dev. |
| 22:54 | <zewt> | being able to have an async API for it would be nice, though that's an easy worker use case anyway |
| 22:57 | <jamesr> | crypto APIs should provide stuff like SHA1 |
| 22:57 | <jamesr> | because authors shouldn't have to roll their own crypto. there are a ton of ways to do it wrong |
| 22:57 | <jamesr> | but what's the source data that you are trying to SHA1? something like a blob, or a data structure in JS? |
| 23:00 | <zewt> | i've wanted to get a hash of a file selected in a file input, to ask the server if it's already there; that case would want a blob, at least |
| 23:00 | <jamesr> | yeah i think there should be a way to say "gimme a sha1 of this (file or blob)" that doesn't require reading the entire thing into JS memory |
| 23:01 | <AryehGregor> | jamesr, a password, in my case. |
| 23:01 | <zewt> | well you definitely want an incremental API, so you can hash data of arbitrary size |
| 23:01 | <AryehGregor> | But it would be cool to be able to do files or blobs. |
| 23:01 | <zewt> | eg. the usual init/update/digest API |
| 23:01 | <AryehGregor> | First you want a basic API that just provides someObject.sha1(). That will cover a lot of use-cases already. |
| 23:02 | <AryehGregor> | But yeah, an incremental one would be handy too, why not. |
| 23:02 | <jamesr> | adam barth and some folks at mozilla have been looking at crypto apis |
| 23:02 | <zewt> | i'd start with the core API: digest.update/digest from blobs, and then see what can't be done with that |
| 23:03 | <zewt> | i wouldn't start with the more limited api, since you might not need that at all once you have the lower-level one |
| 23:03 | <zewt> | eg. if you want to hash a password, use BlobBuilder + that API |
| 23:04 | <AryehGregor> | So you have to use how many lines instead of one? |
| 23:05 | <AryehGregor> | There's no reason not to expose a convenience API for the very common case where you want to hash something that you already have fully in memory. |
| 23:05 | <AryehGregor> | PHP *only* exposes such a function, and I bet some of the JS libraries that implement hash functions also do. |
| 23:05 | <zewt> | shrug, 5-6? i don't think code golfing the narrow "get a hash of a JS string" use case is a good reason to have more APIs |
| 23:05 | <AryehGregor> | I think this is a case where adding a shortcut API for the common case is a no-brainer. |
| 23:06 | <AryehGregor> | In my experience scripting, it's vastly more common to want to hash something small than something big. |
| 23:06 | <zewt> | add the core api, play around with it for a while, then decide if you really need shortcut bloat |
| 23:06 | <zewt> | (also, see how the core api wrangles out, to see what the shortcut api would look like) |
| 23:08 | <AryehGregor> | It should look like someObject.sha1(s). |
| 23:08 | <AryehGregor> | That's what other languages expose. I know PHP does off the top of my head. C libraries like OpenSSL also expose such a shortcut, SHA1() in the one I used. |
| 23:08 | <Philip`> | How do you hash a string of 16-bit units? |
| 23:08 | <zewt> | i'd have a core API as eg: hash = new SHA1(); hash.update(blob); /* maybe allow hash.update(string); */ hash.digest(); |
| 23:09 | <AryehGregor> | Python seems not to have shortcuts. |
| 23:09 | <zewt> | (where hash.update(string) is the shortcut API--definitely don't need a whole separate entry point) |
| 23:09 | <zewt> | python's hashlib works very well |
| 23:09 | <AryehGregor> | Philip`, . . . hmm. Well, btoa() treats it as an array of bytes, and throws if any code unit is > 0x00ff. |
| 23:10 | <AryehGregor> | That's an awkward point, though. |
| 23:10 | <zewt> | if there's a string shortcut, i'd think the only useful thing to do would be to convert to UTF-8 |
| 23:10 | <zewt> | since that's usually what you want |
| 23:10 | <Philip`> | someObject.sha1("\ud800"); // ??? |
| 23:10 | <Philip`> | or anything else you can't represent in UTF-8 |
| 23:11 | <zewt> | why can't you represent that in utf-8? |
| 23:11 | <zewt> | roundtrips fine in python |
| 23:13 | <zewt> | oh, python is probably storing strings as UCS-4, where that's not an incomplete codepoint |
| 23:14 | <Philip`> | http://unicode.org/faq/utf_bom.html#utf8-5 |
| 23:16 | <Philip`> | The UTF-16 incompleteness matters less than that you can't represent U+D800 as a legal UTF-8 sequence |
| 23:16 | <zewt> | if it's actually a complete surrogate pair then it should be converted, of course; if it's a mismatched surrogate arguably it should either just convert it (so it roundtrips) or throw |
| 23:16 | <zewt> | (IMO, throwing to try to be as anal as unicode would like the world to be would probably be more trouble than it's worth) |
| 23:16 | <Philip`> | If this is meant to be used for comparing against hashes computed by servers, it seems like it ought to do as little magic as possible, else people will get confused by why hashes don't match and it will be impossible to debug |
| 23:17 | <zewt> | that raises a question, though: what about BlobBuilder.append? that says "writing it as UTF-8" without further elaboration |
| 23:17 | <AryehGregor> | The way btoa() works is at least not terribly hard to understand. |
| 23:17 | <AryehGregor> | Although it's a bit tricky to figure out how to convert a UTF-16 string to a form it will accept. |
| 23:17 | <zewt> | or rather, it raises the same question |
| 23:18 | <AryehGregor> | Has anyone ever pointed out that JavaScript strings are atrocities? |
| 23:18 | <zewt> | i'm not sure anyone has failed to point that out :P |
| 23:18 | <zewt> | Philip`: it's not obvious which behavior is less "magic", though |
| 23:18 | <Philip`> | All strings are atrocities |
| 23:19 | <AryehGregor> | Sigh. Why does introducing trivial APIs always have to involve getting bogged down in details? |
| 23:19 | <zewt> | yeah, my python is built with UCS-4 strings, so it's not a very good comparison |
| 23:20 | <zewt> | AryehGregor: well, this seems like a detail that already has to be worked out; BlobBuilder opened the door here |
| 23:20 | <zewt> | presumably whatever that does, this API would follow suit |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | AryehGregor: your definition of "trivial" is just wrong for the web ;-) |
| 23:21 | <zewt> | anyone want to raise the question for BlobBuilder on webapps? otherwise i'll try to get to writing a mail at some point |
| 23:22 | <zewt> | (mental note: don't volunteer to do something when asking if anyone else wants to do it, it's counter to the goal of not having to do it) |
| 23:27 | <AryehGregor> | Hixie, seems so. |
| 23:34 | <zewt> | why do lots of people @google always say "comments inline" on mailing lists, i'd expect people employed by google to know that's redundant, heh |
| 23:35 | <Hixie> | it's not just google, it seems to be anyone who uses a mail client that doesn't do threading right. Outlook, GMail, IBM's thing, etc |
| 23:35 | <zewt> | gmail's threading is reasonable |
| 23:36 | <zewt> | not as good as mutt's, but well, nothing is |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | gmail encourages top-posting |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | and doesn't do threading at all |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | it does conversation concatenation |
| 23:36 | <zewt> | well yes, due to putting space at the top of the mail, but i'd expect people at google to know the bogusness of that :P |
| 23:37 | <zewt> | (minus whatever crackbox on the gmail team implemented that) |
| 23:37 | <zewt> | (yeah I know regular users don't "get" inline responses, i can still grumble) |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | what drives me even more crazy is people who don't trim their quotes |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | which top-posters never do |
| 23:39 | <zewt> | gmail encourages that, since it hides quotes |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | so i end up having to waste hours of my life deleting quotes when replying to e-mails in my batch e-mails |
| 23:47 | <ap> | how about overquoting in Bugzilla? :) |
| 23:49 | <Hixie> | yeah that drives me batty too |
| 23:49 | <Hixie> | why do people do it? |
| 23:49 | <Hixie> | i mean, seriosuly |
| 23:49 | <Hixie> | it takes like 2 seconds to delete context one isn't replying to |
| 23:50 | <Philip`> | IRC seems to have a good solution to the problem of overquoting - if you quote many lines then you'll get kicked for flooding |