| 00:35 | <hdtdi> | hi. i have a question. if i have a website and on this website i have 5 short articles on under another wrapped in a div. is it appropriate to change the div with <section> </section> and in between to wrap every article with <article>text</article> i mean is this the purpose of this tags? |
| 03:50 | <franksalim> | I was hoping to find mark pilgrim |
| 03:50 | <paul_irish> | afk, as it were. :/ |
| 03:50 | <franksalim> | paul_irish: away from internet |
| 03:53 | <karlcow> | franksalim: mark is 410 |
| 03:55 | <karlcow> | http://reinout.vanrees.org/weblog/2011/10/04/github.html |
| 03:55 | <karlcow> | wrong chan |
| 04:07 | <jacobolus> | very surprising considering how damn useful mark's sites have been as educational resources |
| 04:07 | <jacobolus> | no one has any clue if he's okay? |
| 04:30 | <karlcow> | jacobolus: everything is gone so far https://twitter.com/diveintomark his twitter account, his domain names |
| 04:30 | <jacobolus> | karlcow: yes, all the domains 410 |
| 04:31 | <jacobolus> | which is worrying, to say the least :/ |
| 04:33 | danbeam__ | should make his website give a HTTP/1.1 418 |
| 04:33 | <jacobolus> | http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#section-10.4.11 |
| 04:33 | <danbeam__> | make that HTCPCP/1.0 |
| 04:35 | <danbeam__> | jacobolus: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2324#section-2.3.2 |
| 04:35 | <jacobolus> | yeah, I know the coffee-pot protocol :) |
| 04:35 | <shepazu> | he lives near me, but I don't know him well… only met him once, at a conference |
| 04:35 | <danbeam__> | jacobolus: yay |
| 04:36 | <shepazu> | wish I could contact him, but it seems unlikely he wants to be contacted |
| 04:36 | <karlcow> | shepazu: yup |
| 04:37 | <jacobolus> | I'm sure that people who know him will be trying to contact him. It would be very reassuring to hear some kind of news that it’s only his web presence that’s in trouble though. |
| 04:39 | <shepazu> | hopefully, yeah |
| 04:52 | <roc> | unless he has a very advanced deadman switch, presumably he's alive and in possession of his faculties |
| 05:03 | <paul_irish> | gsnedders: i want to document the ports (alive and dead) of html5lib on the google code project. can you add me so i can start a wiki page for it? |
| 05:22 | <Hixie> | sounds like mark is ok, fwiw |
| 05:31 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: that's good to hear |
| 06:18 | <hsivonen> | not cool to make other people worry like that |
| 06:29 | <shepazu> | thanks, Hixie, good to know |
| 06:30 | <shepazu> | shame about his Web content though, especially Dive Into HTML5 |
| 06:30 | <jacobolus> | franksalim points out that the doctype is html 2.0; are there any other web pages in existence with an html 2 doctype? |
| 06:30 | <jacobolus> | i.e. the doctype on the 410'd domain roots |
| 06:30 | <shepazu> | jacobolus: probably not, but I suspect this will start a new trend |
| 06:31 | <jacobolus> | also, writing <br /> is invalid in html 2, right? |
| 06:31 | <shepazu> | HTML5 is soooooooo 2011… HTML 2.0 will be the pixel graphics revival of markup |
| 06:31 | <Hixie> | HTML5 is soooooo 2009 :-P |
| 06:32 | <shepazu> | 2009 is soooooo 2006! |
| 06:34 | <hsivonen> | jacobolus: IIRC, Apache uses an HTML 2.0 doctype for various error pages |
| 06:35 | <hsivonen> | shepazu: Dive into HTML5 is available at http://diveintohtml5.info/ |
| 06:36 | <shepazu> | hsivonen: yeah, thanks… I guess it means that Mark won't be updating it, though |
| 06:36 | <hsivonen> | shepazu: maybe it's now like a paper book in that sense |
| 06:37 | <shepazu> | hsivonen: I've heard of those |
| 06:37 | <shepazu> | not saying it's not a great resource still… I just like the notion that there was this excellent reference that a smart guy was maintaining and keeping up-to-date |
| 06:38 | <hsivonen> | yeah :-( |
| 06:43 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: http://bugzilla.validator.nu/show_bug.cgi?id=860 is odd |
| 06:43 | <hsivonen> | so we went through all the effort to make the HTML parser not reparse on syntax failures and now Opera has made their XML code path reparse as HTML upon syntax failure |
| 06:44 | <Hixie> | imho opera's behaviour there is non-conforming and shouldn't be encouraged |
| 06:46 | <hsivonen> | If we're giving up on Draconian behavior, I think browsers should implement non-reparsing XML5 instead |
| 06:46 | <Hixie> | i'm not convinced we're ever going to give up draconian behaviour. frankly i'm not convinced there's a need anymore. |
| 06:46 | <hsivonen> | btw, what does Opera do in order to still pass Acid3? |
| 06:47 | <hsivonen> | are the Acid3 XML tests in XHR? |
| 06:47 | <Hixie> | (xml has been reduced to the equivalent of json, and json doesn't do error-recovery either) |
| 06:47 | <Hixie> | they've asked if we can change acid3 |
| 06:47 | <Hixie> | so they might have a hack for now |
| 06:47 | <Hixie> | or they might fail it |
| 06:47 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: if you call them equilavent, the next thing we know is people asking for automatic mapping between JSON and XML |
| 06:47 | <Hixie> | equivalent in purpose, not data model |
| 07:55 | <jacobolus> | ugh, JSON libraries' not forgivingly parsing things is awful |
| 08:01 | <hsivonen> | my attempt to integrate with the JSON API of Delicious was stopped by the supposed JSON output from Delicions escaping ' as \' |
| 08:01 | <hsivonen> | Yes, I did report the bug to Delicious. No, it was not fixed in a timely manner |
| 08:06 | <Hixie> | JSON doesn't support JS escapes? |
| 08:08 | <annevk> | doesn't support single quotes or comments |
| 08:08 | <annevk> | it's a sad format |
| 08:09 | <annevk> | widely adopted though |
| 08:09 | <zcorpan> | FlorianX: you can just write an addendum to your thesis saying that the specs have now been merged |
| 08:09 | <annevk> | the problem with XML for us is that sites are broken and give everyone text/html and Opera application/xml or some such with broken content |
| 08:09 | <annevk> | now maybe the majority case of XML usage is not web-facing, but we certainly get our share and it blows |
| 08:10 | <annevk> | e.g. Gmail mobile did not work for three weeks in Opera at one point because of this |
| 08:10 | <Hixie> | it would help if opera had more market share, people would test for it more :-/ |
| 08:28 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ doesn't seem to work |
| 08:31 | <hsivonen> | why do the phone images at http://www.apple.com/iphone/ lack alpha in Gecko? is Apple using some -webkit-CSS instead of PNG alpha? |
| 08:33 | <hsivonen> | looks like they use JPEG for RGB and -webkit- stuff for alpha |
| 08:34 | <hsivonen> | I'm a bit surprised that Apple prefers ugliness in non-WebKit browsers over worse image compression |
| 08:45 | <annevk> | karlcow, what's wrong with corp.invalid and why did you add a slash? |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20111005#l-158 |
| 08:53 | <MikeSmith> | [06:11] <paul_irish> gsnedders: i want to document the ports (alive and dead) of html5lib on the google code project. can you add me so i can start a wiki page for it? |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | https://github.com/diveintomark |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | seems still alive |
| 08:54 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: I think that's a copy that some third-party set up |
| 08:55 | <annevk> | I added paul_irish to html5lib |
| 08:56 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, I see |
| 08:56 | <annevk> | all the blog posts gone |
| 08:56 | <annevk> | I wonder how much Google Reader has |
| 08:57 | <annevk> | man back in the days I used to read those quite a bit :( |
| 09:13 | <foolip> | so <video> is under the-iframe-element.html#the-video-element again after (zcorpan says) complete and web-apps were merged |
| 09:13 | <foolip> | is a different section splitter used? |
| 09:13 | <annevk> | it uses the complete splitter |
| 09:14 | <annevk> | do you still have access to html5.org foolip? |
| 09:15 | <jgraham> | Hixie: Having sites fail in Opera that work in other browsers due to incorrect labelling as XML is hardly helpful to that goal |
| 09:15 | <foolip> | annevk, I should |
| 09:16 | <jgraham> | (it's also not really clear it's non-conforming. It violates the *spirit* of the XML spec but not really the letter) |
| 09:17 | <jgraham> | (FWIW I would also prefer that we implemenetd XML5, but that would be a much bigger change and also cause us to fail ACID3) |
| 09:17 | <jgraham> | +that test in |
| 09:18 | <annevk> | it violates HTTP and HTML, not XML |
| 09:19 | <jgraham> | Well that part of HTTP is violated everywhere so I won't really cry about that |
| 09:20 | <annevk> | me neither, just explaining the Acid3 argument |
| 09:20 | <jgraham> | Fair enough |
| 09:31 | annevk | wonders if someone here can explain http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/002444.html in layman's terms |
| 09:39 | <Philip`> | annevk: It sounds like: If the neutrinos were travelling faster than the speed of light, they would lose energy along the way (due to some weird complex physicsy thing which is presumably believed to be true), but the measured energy doesn't show that loss, so the explanation for the measurements must be something different to simply travelling faster than light |
| 09:40 | <Philip`> | The rest of it's just numbers and equations |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | Bremsstrahlung is a nice word |
| 09:42 | <jgraham> | That seems to basically be it, yes |
| 09:42 | <annevk> | thanks! |
| 09:43 | <annevk> | I wonder why I did not read about that anywhere else yet |
| 09:43 | <jgraham> | Although it doesn't seem that convincing to say "if neutrinos did (physically impossible thing) physics predicts they would also do (some other thing) so obviously they can't have done (impossible thing)" |
| 09:43 | <Philip`> | It's not nearly sensationalistic enough |
| 09:47 | <Philip`> | I guess the idea is to show that if one law of physics is broken in one particular case, then it can't just be fudged into the current model and instead the whole of the rest of physics will collapse around it, therefore physicists really really hope the law wasn't broken |
| 09:54 | <annevk> | Can you export from Google Reader? |
| 10:05 | <foolip> | MikeSmith, are you using spec-splitter.py from http://code.google.com/p/html5/ at the W3C, or can I remove the --w3c mode that only manages to print a double <!doctype> anyway? |
| 10:07 | <Philip`> | I thought it also made it not use HTML5, to satisfy W3C rules |
| 10:07 | <MikeSmith> | foolip: I think it does some other things as well |
| 10:07 | <foolip> | MikeSmith, ok, but are you using it? |
| 10:07 | <MikeSmith> | nope |
| 10:07 | <MikeSmith> | so feel free to remove it |
| 10:07 | <Philip`> | (The doctype thing seems to vary depending on exactly which libxml2 version you've got) |
| 10:08 | <MikeSmith> | I think I'm not even using the --w3c switch in the copy I run from |
| 10:11 | <foolip> | Philip`, oh, I guess I'll have to detect and handle it then |
| 10:12 | <foolip> | MikeSmith, in case you're not following the upstream changes I won't worry about breaking it |
| 10:13 | <foolip> | Philip`, do you know which libxml2 versions *don't* print a doctype? |
| 10:13 | <foolip> | is it just a question of old vs new? |
| 10:14 | <MikeSmith> | foolip: I'll probably just port over you upstream changes once you have them done |
| 10:14 | <foolip> | ok then |
| 10:15 | <MikeSmith> | anybody know a good algorithm for sorting dotted-decimal numbers? |
| 10:15 | <MikeSmith> | e.g.,. "4.10.7.2.8" |
| 10:16 | <foolip> | with a comparator that splits on period and then compares fields until one is not equal or there are not more fields? |
| 10:17 | <FlorianX> | will someone reorganize the whatwg-site? because html ist now webapps 1.0 ? |
| 10:17 | <Philip`> | foolip: Per http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20110207#l-237 and subsequent lines, it sounds like 2.2.8 generated double doctypes, and some unknown earlier version didn't |
| 10:18 | <Philip`> | (Oh, this is lxml not libxml2) |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | FlorianX, Hixie has to do that |
| 10:18 | <FlorianX> | annevk ok |
| 10:18 | <annevk> | FlorianX, if you have a list of places the site is wrong sending an email could help |
| 10:19 | <foolip> | lxml is also based on libxml2 |
| 10:19 | <foolip> | as is etree |
| 10:19 | <foolip> | so it sounds like recent libxml2 simply emit a doctype, so we don't have to ourselves |
| 10:19 | <Philip`> | Yeah, but different version numbers |
| 10:19 | <Philip`> | so it's lxml version 2.2.8+ that matters |
| 10:19 | <Philip`> | (probably) |
| 10:20 | <foolip> | well I'm getting double doctype in the etree code path now |
| 10:20 | <FlorianX> | annevk: I aim to the landigpage :-) |
| 10:20 | <Philip`> | Maybe the old ones just dropped the HTML5 doctype since it looked weird |
| 10:20 | <Philip`> | then they changed it later |
| 10:20 | <annevk> | FlorianX, ah yeah, best to just ping him when he's around |
| 10:20 | <annevk> | FlorianX, is your thesis going to be published btw? |
| 10:20 | annevk | is kind of curious |
| 10:21 | <FlorianX> | annevk: You say yesterday that you might want to write a blog post? Is that still the case? When can I expect with this (in order to source)? |
| 10:22 | <FlorianX> | annevk: i think so :-) |
| 10:23 | <FlorianX> | it's an overview of html(5) and some prototypical implementations |
| 10:24 | <annevk> | FlorianX, hopefully later today, it will likely be a footnote |
| 10:24 | annevk | is updating the FAQ on the wiki |
| 10:25 | <FlorianX> | annevk: thanks; I expect a tweet later:-D |
| 10:27 | <annevk> | seems Hixie updated the FAQ already |
| 10:55 | <annevk> | might become more than a footnote |
| 10:55 | <annevk> | there's not much other news :) |
| 10:56 | hsivonen | assumes that OPERA in Jacques Distler's post has nothing to do with Opera |
| 10:56 | <annevk> | correct |
| 10:56 | <annevk> | they're the group that found the "faster-than-light neutrino" |
| 10:59 | <zcorpan> | annevk: you should write a blog post saying "HTML is dead, long live HTML!" |
| 11:00 | <jgraham> | Well OPERA is the name of the experiment and I don't think they believe they found a faster-than-light neutrino |
| 11:01 | <annevk> | zcorpan, I went with "HTML is the new HTML" |
| 11:02 | <annevk> | jgraham, I don't think it's the name of the experiment |
| 11:04 | <jgraham> | annevk: http://operaweb.lngs.infn.it/spip.php?rubrique1 |
| 11:05 | <Philip`> | "the most straightforward test of the phenomenon of neutrino oscillations" - seems to have turned out less straightforward than they hoped |
| 11:06 | <annevk> | it sounds like it's a construct as well |
| 11:06 | <annevk> | oh well |
| 11:09 | Philip` | is reminded of the person who first discovered a signal that turned out to be a pulsar, when they didn't know what it was and thought (half seriously) it could be communication by aliens, commenting that she was quite irritated with those aliens for happening to pick her radio frequency and her part of the sky and messing up her nice straightforward survey that she was going to do her PhD about |
| 11:55 | <karlcow> | annevk: you can remove the slash, oversight from me. Imagine that corp.invalid becomes a real domain name. example.org|net|com are reserved for examples in specs |
| 11:56 | <annevk> | .invalid is reserved |
| 11:56 | <annevk> | that's why I used it |
| 12:00 | <karlcow> | oooooh my bad then. Gomenasai |
| 12:00 | <karlcow> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-level_domain#Reserved_domains |
| 12:04 | <annevk> | http://blog.whatwg.org/weekly-simple-dom |
| 12:04 | <annevk> | oh, Florian just left! |
| 12:22 | <zcorpan> | annevk: so is there a reason the event handlers can't just be mixed with the attributes? |
| 12:22 | <annevk> | they'll prolly merge |
| 12:23 | <zcorpan> | ['div', {onclick:func, class:'foo'}, 'hello'] |
| 12:24 | <zcorpan> | i guess one problem with this is that svg and mathml are not supported |
| 12:24 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: It makes a bit of a confusing model if the type affects how the property is set |
| 12:24 | <annevk> | we can just check the property |
| 12:24 | <jgraham> | Because ut should set attributes not properties in other cases |
| 12:25 | <annevk> | starts with "on", please go over there... |
| 12:25 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: i was thinking of looking at the attribute name, not the value type |
| 12:25 | <annevk> | http://html5.org/specs/dom-range.html |
| 12:25 | <jgraham> | Great, as only as there are no attributes called "only" or similar |
| 12:26 | <jgraham> | Which seems like a scary thing to assume |
| 12:26 | <zcorpan> | i was thinking of using the list of supported event handles |
| 12:27 | <annevk> | jgraham, seems like a silly attribute to introduce |
| 12:27 | <annevk> | zcorpan, yeah, you would have to do that anyway |
| 12:27 | <zcorpan> | so what do we do with svg and mathml? |
| 12:28 | <jgraham> | annevk: Magic prefix matching with no clear prefix delimiter seems bad compared to haven hidden rules about the avaliable namespace for new attributes |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | Umm, that made no sense |
| 12:29 | <jgraham> | seems bad *because* it introduces hidden rules |
| 12:29 | <annevk> | zcorpan, "svg:svg" and "math:mtext" or some such |
| 12:30 | <annevk> | there are hidden rules in attribute naming already |
| 12:30 | <jgraham> | Such as? |
| 12:30 | <annevk> | cannot start a non-event handler with on |
| 12:30 | <jgraham> | Why not? |
| 12:31 | <zcorpan> | annevk: is the verbosity for svg acceptable to svg people? |
| 12:31 | <annevk> | verbosity? |
| 12:31 | <annevk> | come on |
| 12:33 | <zcorpan> | it's more verbose compared to html |
| 12:33 | <zcorpan> | but maybe it's ok |
| 12:34 | <zcorpan> | would it create elements with prefixes or without? |
| 12:34 | <Philip`> | Adding a scoping attribute, like [{'ns': 'svg'}, 'svg', ['circle', ...], ...] |
| 12:35 | jgraham | wonders if that is a serious suggestion |
| 12:35 | <jgraham> | Sometimes it is hard to tell :) |
| 12:36 | <Philip`> | It's better than ['svg', {'xmlns':'http://www.w3.org/2000/svg';}, ['circle', ...], ...] at least :-p |
| 12:36 | <Philip`> | (which was going to be my initial suggestion) |
| 12:37 | <zcorpan> | 'svg:svg' seems better, especially if you're going to mix html and svg |
| 12:38 | <FlorianX1> | annevk THANKs! |
| 13:06 | <FlorianX1> | annevk: again to the master thesis, this is unfortunately in German |
| 13:09 | <annevk> | google translate :) |
| 13:14 | <FlorianX1> | annevk: ok nice i'll let you know if its finished |
| 13:15 | <hsivonen> | what did navigator.taintEnabled() actually mean? |
| 13:18 | <hsivonen> | hmm. it was an experimental thing in Netscape 3 and has always returned false since Netscape 4 |
| 13:39 | <karlcow> | http://intertwingly.net/blog/2011/10/03/No-more-XML-parsing-failed-errors |
| 15:18 | <foolip> | yay, <video> is back on the-video-element.html |
| 15:18 | <hsivonen> | hmm. I'm seeing no server response to my subscribe email to public-html-data-tf-request |
| 15:35 | <foolip> | hsivonen, do you think it's worthwhile taking part in the TF? |
| 15:40 | <hsivonen> | foolip: not sure yet. I think it's worthwhile to try |
| 15:43 | <foolip> | hsivonen, maybe I'll join then |
| 15:59 | <manu`> | hsivonen, foolip - I'd certainly hope you guys would take part in the html-data TF - there isn't much representation from the Microdata camp and thus, the discussion is probably going to be skewed as a result (no matter how hard the participants try to be even-handed) |
| 16:00 | <foolip> | Hixie, are you in it? |
| 16:01 | <FlorianX1> | could someone explain me why the Geolocation APi is a "candidate recommendation" since 2010? |
| 16:02 | <FlorianX1> | what is happening there? |
| 16:02 | <manu`> | Also, does anyone know why Mark Pilgrim 410'd his identity yesterday (and people did check on him and he's fine, btw) |
| 16:34 | <karlcow> | FlorianX1: http://www.w3.org/2008/geolocation/drafts/API/Implementation-Report.html indeed the implementation report doesn't seem to be that bad |
| 16:36 | <FlorianX1> | karlcow: yeah |
| 16:36 | <karlcow> | maybe it is because the v2 is being worked on http://www.w3.org/2011/09/07-geolocation-minutes.html |
| 16:38 | <karlcow> | FlorianX1: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-geolocation/2011Jun/0048.html |
| 16:38 | <karlcow> | Our normative reference to WebIDL has prevented us from moving past CR |
| 16:38 | <karlcow> | until WebIDL reaches Last Call. WebIDL is now expected to go to LC on |
| 16:38 | <karlcow> | June 30th, and we decided to keep the reference to that spec instead of |
| 16:38 | <karlcow> | copying the relevant IDL definitions into the Geolocation spec. |
| 16:39 | <karlcow> | http://www.w3.org/TR/WebIDL/ |
| 16:39 | <karlcow> | W3C Working Draft 27 September 2011 |
| 16:39 | <zewt> | ... do they really think that's a reasonable alternative? heh |
| 16:39 | <zewt> | "fork the unfinished spec that you depend on and call it finished" |
| 16:41 | <karlcow> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-script-coord/2011JulSep/0467.html |
| 16:41 | <karlcow> | RfC: Last Call Working Draft of Web IDL; deadline October 18 |
| 16:43 | <zewt> | "last call" hardly seems to mean "finished" these days; just "reasonable snapshot point" or something like that |
| 16:44 | <FlorianX1> | karlcow: thanks for help! so webidl is the blocker |
| 16:44 | <karlcow> | my pleasure. But you should thank the w3c list search engine implemented by Olivier Thereaux in the past ;) |
| 16:45 | <FlorianX1> | :D |
| 17:04 | <JonathanNeal> | benschwarz: how much of your theme at http://developers.whatwg.org/ is open? |
| 18:20 | <jacobolus> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2011OctDec/0020.html looks an awful lot like s-exps |
| 18:21 | <jacobolus> | I like the idea though. I should make such a thing for working with Photoshop's horrific ActionDescriptor APIs |
| 18:24 | <jacobolus> | [horrific like here's the code photoshop's "script recorder" generates http://pastie.textmate.org/2644891 ] |
| 18:24 | <jacobolus> | [for using the curves tool once] |
| 18:26 | <zewt> | could be a little cleaner with some API shortcuts, but not that bad as generated code goes |
| 18:28 | <jacobolus> | it includes 16 identical copies of the line `var idPnt = charIDToTypeID( "Pnt " );` |
| 18:29 | <jacobolus> | but even cleaning up the mess made by the code generation, the API is a pretty nasty way to serialize a hierarchical object structure |
| 18:29 | <jgraham> | jacobolus: Well yes it is a lot like s-exps |
| 18:30 | <jgraham> | Turns out that lisp had some good ideas |
| 18:30 | <jacobolus> | jgraham: :) |
| 18:30 | <jgraham> | Don't tell TabAtkins though, he will never stop going on about it :p |
| 18:38 | <zewt> | it's a pretty straightforward recursive dump--when I think of ugly generated code I think of flex, heh |
| 19:01 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: sweet! (your data e-mail) |
| 19:05 | <Jockel> | hi |
| 19:06 | <Jockel> | is the feature of "channel messaging" new within html5? |
| 19:06 | <Hixie> | new relative to what? |
| 19:07 | <Hixie> | MessagePort was added in July 2008, I think. |
| 19:07 | <Hixie> | so, three years? |
| 19:07 | <Hixie> | kinda new |
| 19:07 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: thanks |
| 19:09 | <Jockel> | Hi Hixie, I guessed you will answering... ;-) saw some work from you in the web |
| 19:10 | <Jockel> | is there anybody, who tried to "modelcheck" the message passing communication? |
| 19:10 | <Hixie> | "modelcheck"? |
| 19:10 | <Jockel> | ;-) |
| 19:11 | <Jockel> | yes, i guessed noone know "model checking" here |
| 19:11 | <Hixie> | we might know it under a different name :-) |
| 19:11 | <Jockel> | it is used in several formal lessons of computer science and was applied in critical system design |
| 19:12 | <Jockel> | space science at NASA :) |
| 19:12 | <Hixie> | yes but what is it? what does it tell us and how do we do it? |
| 19:12 | <Jockel> | Hixie: http://spinroot.com/gerard/ |
| 19:13 | <Jockel> | this is one of the famous "model checker" |
| 19:13 | <Jockel> | model checker can check if there is a deadlock within the communication and everythig stands still |
| 19:13 | <Jockel> | for example |
| 19:14 | <Jockel> | model checker checks before something is going into runtime.... |
| 19:14 | <Jockel> | so, for html5..... |
| 19:15 | <Jockel> | before somebody visits a website, a model checker would check the html5 for "communication errors" |
| 19:15 | <Jockel> | I do not know, if there occurs some cases of "communication errors" of html5?!? |
| 19:15 | <Hixie> | ah, i see. yes, we have checked if postMessage() can cause deadlocks. It cannot cause deadlocks on its own, but poor use of it can cause logical deadlocks. |
| 19:16 | <Jockel> | Hixie: Are you working in zurich? |
| 19:17 | <Hixie> | (it's a completely async model and there's no way to block on reading from a port) |
| 19:17 | <Hixie> | i do not |
| 19:17 | <Hixie> | though i have been to zurich |
| 19:17 | <Hixie> | it looked like a localized version of geneva :-) |
| 19:17 | <Jockel> | Hixie: I saw, you were working for G... and you came from ch? |
| 19:18 | <Jockel> | Hixie: I asked, because I know somebody, working at G-zürich |
| 19:18 | <Hixie> | what exactly do you mean by "came from"? |
| 19:19 | <Hixie> | (gotta go, bbiab) |
| 19:19 | <Jockel> | Hixie: Only I saw your webpage.... http://hixie.ch/ |
| 19:20 | <Jockel> | so I guessed you are working in zürich ;) |
| 19:23 | <Jockel> | Hixie: Synchronous communication is not possible in the html5, or? |
| 19:29 | <AryehGregor> | Jockel, Hixie hasn't lived in Switzerland for like 20 years, or close to it. He's in Mountain View, IIRC. |
| 19:30 | <Jockel> | AryehGregor: Thanks ;) |
| 20:15 | <JonathanNeal> | microdata isn't part of html5? |
| 20:21 | <AryehGregor> | JonathanNeal, it's part of HTML, which is what the WHATWG spec is called. It's not part of HTML5, which is what the W3C spec is called. |
| 20:21 | <AryehGregor> | The WHATWG spec also used to be called HTML5, so microdata was part of that. |
| 20:22 | <AryehGregor> | It also used to be part of the W3C HTML5 spec until it was split out by WG decision. |
| 20:24 | <JonathanNeal> | Complicated. |
| 20:24 | <AryehGregor> | Yes. |
| 21:18 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, okay, so forget about performance. I'm trying to debug an uncaught exception in testharness.js, and it's at the end of a stack of 20 recursive calls to render, substitute, substitute_single, substitute_children, and map. Where render is called originally by Output.show_results. If we just built the HTML directly, this problem would probably be trivial to debug if it occurred at all. |
| 21:18 | <AryehGregor> | This is really not a good level of abstraction. |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | anyone know how i can find out what punctuation sorts below '"' in the en-US.utf8 locale on my linux box? |
| 21:20 | <AryehGregor> | If you're worried about safety, I'd take the slight extra length of direct use of DOM methods over this templating stuff anyday. |
| 21:20 | AryehGregor | writes a patch to see how long that would be |
| 21:35 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, http://pastebin.com/mDEs9T4j |
| 21:35 | <AryehGregor> | -8 lines. |
| 21:35 | <AryehGregor> | And completely safe, innerHTML used only for static strings. |
| 21:36 | <AryehGregor> | Oh, wait, I was using the wrong brace style, so really it should be -7 lines. |
| 21:36 | <AryehGregor> | If you ignore lines that are blank or contain only brackets/braces/etc., still -3 lines. |
| 21:36 | <AryehGregor> | Would you object if I commit this? |
| 21:37 | <AryehGregor> | (BTW, it also fixed the mysterious deeply-nested exception I was getting with the templating stuff) |
| 21:49 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: Yes, that is the worst problem |
| 21:49 | <AryehGregor> | Which is? |
| 21:50 | <jgraham> | When there is an error and the stack trace is, uh, confusing |
| 21:50 | <AryehGregor> | Yeah. |
| 21:50 | <AryehGregor> | And the advantage is . . . ? |
| 21:52 | <AryehGregor> | I mean, I can see how in theory you might want it to be shorter, but it's actually not. |
| 21:52 | <AryehGregor> | At least in this case. |
| 21:52 | <jgraham> | Well it seems like a nice model. Nice enough that annevk is pushing something not dissimilar for DOM :) |
| 21:52 | <AryehGregor> | In what way is it nice? |
| 21:52 | <jgraham> | But I won't object to this patch |
| 21:53 | <jgraham> | It is a very regular way of describing the tree that you want just using js objects |
| 21:53 | AryehGregor | pushes the patch |
| 21:54 | <jgraham> | Rather than having to use special code for each different case |
| 21:58 | <AryehGregor> | That might be useful in some theoretical circumstances, just not here. |
| 22:09 | <Hixie> | benschwarz: yt? |
| 22:18 | AryehGregor | strongly suspects that assert_*() is a bottleneck here too |
| 22:18 | <AryehGregor> | It seems to format the message even if it's not going to be used, which hopefully it rarely will be. |
| 22:22 | <benschwarz> | Hixie: am now. |
| 22:22 | <benschwarz> | JonathanNeal: heya |
| 22:23 | <JonathanNeal> | hey benschwarz! :) |
| 22:25 | <benschwarz> | I didn't understand your question… |
| 22:25 | <benschwarz> | how open? |
| 22:27 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, I'm going to be pushing some microoptimizations to testharness.js that provide large quantifiable performance gains on large result sets. I just pushed the first one. |
| 22:27 | <JonathanNeal> | I've had an idea for something like this benschwarz http://www.diveinto.org/html5/modern.index.html |
| 22:27 | <AryehGregor> | I'll ask you first if they involve any substantial refactoring or design changes. |
| 22:27 | <JonathanNeal> | but it's fully based on the themework you did for the developers whatwg |
| 22:28 | <benschwarz> | JonathanNeal: it looks gnarly |
| 22:28 | <benschwarz> | use it! |
| 22:28 | <JonathanNeal> | cool |
| 22:28 | <JonathanNeal> | thanks |
| 22:28 | <benschwarz> | I never licensed it or anything… mainly just didn't consider other uses for it |
| 22:29 | <JonathanNeal> | It's a good outline for any collection of papers on a subject. |
| 22:29 | <JonathanNeal> | design, I mean |
| 22:29 | <JonathanNeal> | I'm just experimenting with fonts to find something that will read comfortably on my iPad as well. |
| 22:31 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: I think the commit message was harsh even if I don't entirely disagree |
| 22:31 | <jgraham> | (for the template removal) |
| 22:31 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, sorry about that. |
| 22:32 | <benschwarz> | JonathanNeal: if anything is worth putting back into developers.whatwg.org, let me know :) |
| 22:32 | <AryehGregor> | I was a little frustrated after having to deal with a few too many giant stack traces and a little too much bad performance. :) |
| 22:32 | AryehGregor | is working on the latter right now |
| 22:33 | <JonathanNeal> | benschwarz: i'll definitely let you know if it is. |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | benschwarz: i was wondering how often the developers.whatwg.org site was resynced and whether it would make sense for me to only update the source file once a week or something |
| 22:45 | <benschwarz> | Hixie: Are you doing that manually? |
| 22:46 | <Hixie> | it's in a script that triggers each time i update, currently |
| 22:46 | <benschwarz> | Hixie: I just run it manually still… I always meant to make it a cron task |
| 22:47 | <benschwarz> | I run it every few weeks |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | benschwarz: k |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | benschwarz: let me know if you ever run it more often than once a week :-) |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | benschwarz: i'll make my script not bother unless it's more than a week old |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | saves me some CPU |
| 22:53 | <benschwarz> | sure thing |
| 22:54 | <benschwarz> | just re-deployed it now :) |
| 23:38 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: about the sorting question, http://www.collation-charts.org/opensolaris/opensolaris.2008.05.en_US.UTF-8.html might be useful |
| 23:39 | <MikeSmith> | I don't know how to actually find/check the collation rules in the local environment |
| 23:39 | <MikeSmith> | would think it must be something under /usr/share/i18n/locales but no idea what |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | i ended up just hard-coding it |
| 23:40 | <MikeSmith> | ok |