| 01:56 | <milan> | hello |
| 09:11 | <jgraham> | http://www.dartlang.org/ |
| 09:12 | <jgraham> | "To run this code please use Chrome, Safari or Firefox (or, try anyway). IE9 support is coming soon." |
| 09:12 | <jgraham> | Thanks Google |
| 09:25 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: what happened when trying to run it in Opera? |
| 09:25 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: do they not test in Opera or do they make it break in Opera? |
| 09:25 | <hsivonen> | either way is uncool |
| 09:26 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: I am told that it worked for other people but not for me |
| 09:27 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if they ever considered sticking Dalvik into Chrome and reviving the Java DOM bindings |
| 09:28 | <hsivonen> | is there an explanation that says how Dart makes things better than using Java with GWT? |
| 09:29 | <hsivonen> | As a total knee-jerk reaction, having num as a data type instead of int seems pointless to me |
| 09:29 | <hsivonen> | (I didn't actually look up what num means.) |
| 09:38 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: "Although you might expect int and double to be primitive types, they're actually interfaces that extend the num interface. This means that int and double variables are also nums." |
| 09:38 | <Philip`> | so it doesn't sound like "instead of int" |
| 09:45 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: hmmkay. |
| 09:45 | <hsivonen> | maybe that makes sense |
| 09:46 | <hsivonen> | I'm generally suspicious of something that looks like hiding low-level numbers |
| 09:46 | <hsivonen> | maybe this isn't that sort of thing and only looks like it |
| 09:54 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: I think it sort of looks like trying to be compatible with JS (so it's easier to learn the language and port code) by having a generic num type, while also letting people write better-performing code for an insufficiently clever compiler by explicitly annotating the types in integer-only code |
| 09:57 | <Philip`> | (Maybe also trying to be compatible with Java, to help Java programmers and Java code) |
| 11:18 | <Philip`> | Oh, actually per http://www.dartlang.org/articles/optional-types/ it seems the whole type system (including double vs int vs num) is entirely pointless at runtime |
| 11:23 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: whoa. what (if anything) is supposed to make Dart better for JIT perf than JS? |
| 11:29 | <Cradam> | does anyone have a link to a good css normalise file? |
| 11:29 | <divya> | ?g normalize css @ Cradam |
| 11:29 | <divya> | oops no bot |
| 11:29 | <Cradam> | ok so you are saying google it |
| 11:29 | <divya> | http://necolas.github.com/normalize.css/ |
| 11:31 | <Cradam> | eugh so many comments |
| 11:31 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: According to someone in #jsapi, the lack of prototypes might help |
| 11:32 | <Philip`> | (It looks like all objects have to belong to some statically-defined class) |
| 11:35 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: ok |
| 11:36 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I find it strange that integers in Dart are bignums instead of being close-to-hardware integers that overflow |
| 11:39 | <hsivonen> | Are integers in Python overflowing or bignums? |
| 11:39 | <Cradam> | ehh the person also uses spaces rather than tabs |
| 11:39 | <Cradam> | this guy doesn't know much about optimisation by the looks of it |
| 11:40 | <hsivonen> | Cradam: does tabs vs. spaces matter after gzip? |
| 11:40 | <Cradam> | a properly minified file can be faster than gzip |
| 11:41 | <Cradam> | because with gzip the browser has to uncompresss the file |
| 11:41 | <divya> | hahaha Cradam really is that all you can find? |
| 11:41 | <divya> | to critize that is |
| 11:41 | <Cradam> | divya: well there are other things that i think are more minor |
| 11:42 | <divya> | i would think what you mentioned are already very minor |
| 11:42 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: They are automatically coerced to a larger type if they would overflow |
| 11:43 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: ok |
| 11:43 | <necolas> | cradam, where's your data to backup that claim about minify/gzip? |
| 11:43 | <Cradam> | divya: well i would never employ anyone who used spaces over tabs |
| 11:43 | <necolas> | Cradam: lol |
| 11:43 | <divya> | Cradam: hahahahha |
| 11:43 | <divya> | srry you cant use html5boilerplate then |
| 11:44 | <Cradam> | i prefer to minify stuff myself rather than let an algorithm do it |
| 11:45 | <hsivonen> | whoa. there's a lot of boilerplate in html5boilerplate these days |
| 11:45 | <divya> | hsivonen: elaborate? |
| 11:45 | <Cradam> | i can use it, i choose not to |
| 11:46 | <hsivonen> | divya: jQuery, Modernizr, Google Analytics, Chrome Frame stuff |
| 11:46 | <divya> | hsivonen: yeah all defaults people use. |
| 11:47 | <Cradam> | lol you seriously use chrome frame |
| 11:47 | <necolas> | hsivonen: delete key friendly |
| 11:47 | <divya> | we removed a lot of others |
| 11:47 | <hsivonen> | necolas: I'm not complaining. just suprprised at the size of the boilerplate |
| 11:47 | <necolas> | it's not that big tbh |
| 11:47 | <divya> | ah but hsivonen analytics is hardly more than a line. |
| 11:47 | <Cradam> | chrome frame requires the user to have a plugin to view your page - NO THANKS |
| 11:48 | <Cradam> | *= |
| 11:48 | <necolas> | doesnt require |
| 11:48 | <hsivonen> | divya: analytics seems to be 6 lines plus 1 line of comment :-) |
| 11:48 | <Cradam> | necolas: oh, elaborate |
| 11:48 | <tomasf> | could be nice if html5boiler had a checkbox form that let you choose what features to include |
| 11:49 | <necolas> | tomasf: it does |
| 11:49 | <divya> | tomasf: there is http://initializr.com |
| 11:49 | <divya> | or use the custom form |
| 11:49 | <Cradam> | tomasf: yes thats what backspace is for |
| 11:49 | <tomasf> | divya: oh, nice |
| 11:50 | <necolas> | re chrome-frame, pretty sure we're gonna ditch the script (which sucks) in favour of a prompt. |
| 11:52 | <divya> | yep |
| 11:52 | <divya> | just need to implement it |
| 11:56 | <Cradam> | what i want is not a prompt to install chrome frame but just a check to see if it is installed and if it is then use it |
| 11:57 | <Cradam> | oh |
| 11:58 | <necolas> | yeah we've always had that |
| 11:58 | <Cradam> | thats the default action |
| 12:12 | <Cradam> | hmm thats a shame, chrome frame doesn't change IE's css stuff |
| 12:15 | <necolas> | Cradam: really? |
| 12:16 | <Cradam> | well it didn't give me border-radius and box-shadow so i assume not |
| 12:18 | <necolas> | ah yes, seems so |
| 12:20 | <divya> | ryanseddon: ^ whats your view? |
| 12:33 | <smaug____> | hmm, so why do they call it Dart and not Java-- (or perhaps Java++) |
| 12:34 | <smaug____> | (and I don't still understand the reasons for Dart) |
| 12:43 | <jgraham> | They should have called it WebJava to annoy annevk5 |
| 12:45 | Philip` | assumed the reasons were that Google developers like Java and classes for large-scale development, and V8 developers don't like JavaScript, so they made up their own language for their own goals |
| 12:45 | <Philip`> | (Also, designing languages is always fun) |
| 12:48 | <smaug____> | that is true, designing languages is fun |
| 12:49 | <Philip`> | If "hello world" programs turn into http://try-dart-lang.appspot.com/b/030iCprzxiLHwzM0fYRey0Cw5x4?cjY0NzIuMzUzODI0ODA3NDYxODYwNTUx for users of all browsers other than Chrome and cause terrible performance, then that's just a bonus |
| 12:57 | <hsivonen> | hmm. looks like the ES5 spec doesn't define "object literals" using the term object literal |
| 12:58 | <jgraham> | "Object Initialiser" |
| 12:58 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: thanks |
| 12:59 | <hsivonen> | and what's the deal with ES5 not using en-US as the spec language? |
| 12:59 | <jgraham> | What does it use? I thoughtAllen was a en-USE speaker. But maybe ECMA has funky rules |
| 13:00 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: it uses something that says initialiser instead of initializer |
| 13:00 | <hsivonen> | could be an artifact of the E in ECMA |
| 13:01 | <jgraham> | http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/EcmaRules.htm |
| 13:02 | <hsivonen> | HTML and CSS have made me weird in the way that when I write JS, I look at the ES5 spec |
| 13:02 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: ok. |
| 13:04 | <hsivonen> | smaug____: I don't really see why the delta between JS and Dart justifies a new language |
| 13:33 | <adtykfhyipoh> | Hello |
| 13:34 | <adtykfhyipoh> | Hey everyone, I am new to whatwg. Call me [random letters] |
| 13:34 | <tomasf> | Hi dforyebfdaé |
| 13:35 | <Kawner> | yo |
| 13:36 | <adtykfhyipoh> | sup tomasf |
| 13:37 | <Philip`> | Hello סמשה |
| 13:37 | <adtykfhyipoh> | Hey Phill when do people start joining this thing? |
| 13:37 | <adtykfhyipoh> | I am itching for conversation |
| 13:37 | <adtykfhyipoh> | and I need help with a web app :( |
| 13:38 | <Philip`> | People are already here but have nothing in particular to talk about |
| 13:38 | <adtykfhyipoh> | ok I've got one |
| 13:38 | <adtykfhyipoh> | who is here and how do you tell |
| 13:38 | <Philip`> | Your IRC client might have a list of names down the side of the screen |
| 13:39 | <adtykfhyipoh> | ok let's discuss this forum topic |
| 13:39 | <adtykfhyipoh> | http://forums.whatwg.org/bb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4735&p=7482#p7482 |
| 13:40 | <adtykfhyipoh> | I need some help |
| 13:41 | <Philip`> | I think you want the loop to be more like "for (i=1; i<=castles.x.length; i++){" |
| 13:42 | <Philip`> | Oops |
| 13:42 | <Philip`> | I think you want the loop to be more like "for (i=1; i<castles.x.length; i++){" |
| 13:42 | <Philip`> | ("<" instead of "==") |
| 13:42 | <adtykfhyipoh> | ok |
| 13:42 | <adtykfhyipoh> | I will give that a shot |
| 13:43 | <tomasf> | and unless you want to skip the first entry, you may want i=0 |
| 13:44 | <adtykfhyipoh> | It worked! Thanks man! |
| 13:44 | <adtykfhyipoh> | It totally works thanks a lot |
| 13:45 | <adtykfhyipoh> | I literally joined last night but I will try to be a big help here |
| 13:46 | <adtykfhyipoh> | (I joined because I got kicked out of stackoverflow for asking to many dumb questions) |
| 13:49 | <Philip`> | One option would be to read some kind of book/tutorial/etc on general introductory JavaScript programming, since that should resolve a lot of dumb questions more efficiently than asking about them one by one :-) |
| 13:50 | <adtykfhyipoh> | well actually I really expierienced, just new to canvas. |
| 13:50 | Philip` | doesn't know anything specific to recommend, though |
| 13:50 | <adtykfhyipoh> | I have been literally been doing javascript since I was nine. |
| 13:50 | <Philip`> | Your question about arrays and for loops is just general JS, nothing to do with canvas :-) |
| 13:51 | <adtykfhyipoh> | actually, my question was not about arrays it was about drawing on the canvas from an array. |
| 13:51 | <adtykfhyipoh> | also I haven't used many arrays anyways. |
| 13:52 | <adtykfhyipoh> | I am a php guy most of the time |
| 15:59 | <jgraham> | What was the thing that people didn't like about postMessage(msg, ports, targetOrigin)? |
| 16:32 | <adtykfhyipoh> | I'm back |
| 16:32 | <adtykfhyipoh> | lol |
| 16:34 | <adtykfhyipoh> | anybody here? |
| 16:35 | <adtykfhyipoh> | sup jarek |
| 16:36 | <jarek> | hi |
| 16:36 | <_bga> | adtykfhyipoh any questions or comments about specs? |
| 16:37 | <_bga> | plz dont flood |
| 16:37 | <adtykfhyipoh> | what do you mean flood? I am new to IRC in general. |
| 16:37 | <adtykfhyipoh> | btw I answer to [random letters] so you don't have to copy my name. |
| 16:38 | <_bga> | adtykfhyipoh its wrong channel for irc newbies |
| 16:38 | <adtykfhyipoh> | ok then I take it back I am an IRC pro |
| 16:39 | <adtykfhyipoh> | Do you just sit here and wait for someone to ask a question without conversation? That is not like any of the other channels I have visited |
| 16:46 | <wilhelm> | Yes. |
| 16:47 | <webben> | adtykfhyipoh: "Do you just sit here and wait for someone to ask a question without conversation?" Yes. (Actually this is how most of the channels on freenode work.) |
| 16:47 | <zewt> | people talk when people talk |
| 16:49 | <adtykfhyipoh> | ok then I guess I will join you. |
| 16:50 | <adtykfhyipoh> | I just joined WHATWG and I am hoping to contribute to the community a lot. I know a good lot about HTML5 and Canvas game development. |
| 17:03 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 17:03 | <jgraham> | Apart from dglazkov. He brings unwelcome daily cheer regardless of whether anyone wants it |
| 17:03 | <divya> | HI dglazkov!! |
| 17:03 | <divya> | hahahahahh |
| 17:03 | <divya> | UNWELCOME! |
| 17:03 | <divya> | </3 |
| 17:04 | dglazkov | spreads cheer contagion on jgraham |
| 17:05 | <jgraham> | Yuck |
| 17:05 | <dglazkov> | :P |
| 17:27 | <adtykfhyipoh> | Hey guys I've got a quick question |
| 17:28 | <adtykfhyipoh> | dbaron I've got a question |
| 17:28 | <adtykfhyipoh> | can you answer? |
| 17:28 | <Ms2ger> | Not if you don't ask it |
| 17:28 | <divya> | hahahha |
| 17:28 | <dbaron> | adtykfhyipoh, how can I tell if I don't know what the question is? |
| 17:29 | <adtykfhyipoh> | well I will tell you |
| 17:29 | <adtykfhyipoh> | I have a function in JavaScript, and said function needs to stop if a condition is true. How could I achieve this? |
| 17:29 | <adtykfhyipoh> | break; does not work because it is in a loop and that will stop the loop. |
| 17:30 | <Ms2ger> | Can you show code? |
| 17:30 | <dbaron> | return |
| 17:30 | <adtykfhyipoh> | return? I will try that |
| 17:31 | <adtykfhyipoh> | ok thanks return worked. |
| 17:31 | <adtykfhyipoh> | you guys rule |
| 21:49 | <michaelw> | Hixie: at <http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/webappapis.html#event-handler-event-type>;, there's an empty item in the event handler processing algorithm (step 4) |
| 21:57 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Did you ever come up with a better name than "superior parent" |
| 21:57 | <TabAtkins> | ? |
| 22:56 | <heycam> | morning |
| 23:08 | <sicking> | heycam! |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | heycam! you have returned! |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | heycam: let me know when you're caught up with mail and so on, i have some questions for you :-) |
| 23:11 | <heycam> | Hixie, ok, gimme a day :) |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | np! |
| 23:13 | heycam | starts remote working today, hopes it works out for him :) |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | wait, tpac costs money again this year? wtf |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | i don't even want to attend any meetings |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | sicking: do you know if anyone at mozilla is looking at <iframe sandbox>? |
| 23:39 | <sicking> | Hixie: yes, Ian Melven expressed interest in working on it |
| 23:39 | <sicking> | Hixie: no ETA though, he's just starting |
| 23:39 | <sicking> | Hixie: on that topic though, the fallback story for sandboxes seem to be terrible |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | yeah that's what i wanted to ask about |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | the spec uses text/html-sandboxed currently |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | apparently this fails in some old IEs that sniff like crazy |
| 23:40 | <Hixie> | i was wondering if anyone at mozilla had any better ideas |
| 23:41 | <Hixie> | (by "fails" i mean "gets interpreted as text/html so you can XSS someone by getting them to visit the framed content directly") |
| 23:45 | <jwalden> | \o/ |
| 23:50 | <sicking> | Hixie: does the @sandbox attribute only work with text/html-sandboxed? |
| 23:50 | <sicking> | Hixie: i thought it was intended to work with plain "text/html" too? |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | it works for both; there's use cases for sandboxing stuff that is safe to access directly |
| 23:50 | <Hixie> | (e.g. anything cross-domain) |
| 23:51 | <sicking> | Hixie: but then what's the purpose of the sandbox attribute in that use case? |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | to e.g. prevent popups |
| 23:51 | <Hixie> | it's pretty flexible, you can do quite a lot with it |
| 23:52 | <sicking> | my concern is that it's *really* easy to write markup that looks fine, until you start thinking about browsers that don't implement @sandbox |
| 23:53 | <Hixie> | yeah, but there's so many use cases where sandbox="" is just extra defense in depth that it doesn't really make sense to make it not work at all in legacy UAs |
| 23:53 | <sicking> | not sure I agree, i'd prefer if websites in those cases detected that sandbox wasn't implemented and did the fallback themselves |
| 23:54 | <sicking> | i'm fine with having fallback for the less sensitive cases |
| 23:54 | <sicking> | but for the more sensitive ones, like disable scripting, it seems pretty bad with the current design |
| 23:54 | <sicking> | one alternative i was thinking about is something like this: |
| 23:55 | <sicking> | <iframe src="strictly_filtered_comments.cgi?blogpostid=123" sandbox_src="comments.cgi?blogpostid=123"> |
| 23:55 | <sicking> | or |
| 23:55 | <sicking> | or rather "and:" |
| 23:57 | <sicking> | <iframe src="strictly_filtered_comments.cgi?blogpostid=123" sandbox_src="comments.cgi?blogpostid=123" sandbox="allow-top-navigation"> |
| 23:58 | <sicking> | where the former cgi could do more agressive filtering of any HTML contents for example |
| 23:58 | <erlehmann> | sicking, can you explain why „strictly_filtered_comments“ would not be in both? |
| 23:58 | <erlehmann> | i seem to be missing something here. |
| 23:59 | <sicking> | erlehmann: say that you want to allow comments to use some basic HTML markup, like changing colors and fonts |
| 23:59 | <sicking> | erlehmann: but you don't trust that you'll get all the HTML filtering correctly |