| 00:00 | <gsnedders> | IMO |
| 00:01 | <roc> | absolutely |
| 00:01 | <gsnedders> | Oh, right. |
| 00:01 | <gsnedders> | I misread what you wrote. |
| 00:02 | <gsnedders> | I missed the "and then flushing". I should go sleep. |
| 07:41 | <benschwarz> | foolip: !ping |
| 08:17 | <kennyluck> | What is the easiest way to trigger WebKit encoding mismatch reparsing ? |
| 08:17 | <kennyluck> | (Or does such thing exists?) |
| 09:04 | <foolip> | benschwarz, !pong |
| 09:59 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, hmm |
| 10:02 | <Ms2ger> | AryehGregor, could you update anolis? Looks like a full stop still gets lost in your version: https://bitbucket.org/ms2ger/dom-core/changeset/e4ce1db482f8#chg_dom-core.html_oldline7684 |
| 10:09 | <phunkei> | hello, can someone tell me the markup for a valid (Maybe valid for the next few month) datetime on blogposts? |
| 10:11 | <phunkei> | A few days ago I started using the <time> tag but it seems to be deprecated already |
| 10:17 | <divya> | phunkei: use spans :) |
| 10:36 | <bga_> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2fhNVQPb5I |
| 11:17 | <Ms2ger> | <zcorpan> i carefully read every email i receive, several times, then backwards, then in random order following any references |
| 11:17 | <gsnedders> | That guy is *smart*. |
| 11:43 | <Ms2ger> | http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/157 |
| 11:56 | gsnedders | mumbles something about host objects and getters |
| 11:56 | <Ms2ger> | Can we just for back to .item()? |
| 11:56 | <Ms2ger> | for? |
| 11:57 | Ms2ger | can't tpye |
| 12:23 | <foolip> | Mike[tm], http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/the-iframe-element.html#the-video-element is on the wrong page, can you update the W3C spec splitter to fix? |
| 13:43 | <boblet> | I can’t see <time> in #obsolete. is that intentional? |
| 13:43 | <boblet> | s/#obsolete/obsolete.html#obsolete/ |
| 13:45 | <annevk> | it was not in a previous HTML iteration |
| 13:47 | <gsnedders> | What's an iteration? |
| 13:47 | <gsnedders> | Like, given the fact WHATWG now publishes a single Living Standard, what justifies something being obsolete? |
| 13:47 | <boblet> | annevk: aah, suspected so. so treated as a <span> equivalent, with @datetime and @pubdate ignored, amirite? Btw, how is this going to work for the Living Standard spec in the future? |
| 13:48 | <boblet> | oh. what he said :) |
| 13:48 | <annevk> | boblet, I suspect it depends on the stability level of the feature |
| 13:48 | <annevk> | boblet, <time> never made it past Last Call or so |
| 13:49 | <zcorpan> | the Living Standard doesn't have Last Calls |
| 13:49 | <annevk> | zcorpan, its sections do |
| 13:49 | <boblet> | annevk: spec stability rather than browser implementation? hmm, I would have guessed the latter, and was wondering if it was two implementations or something |
| 13:50 | <boblet> | browser uptake reflecting reality etc etc |
| 13:50 | <annevk> | e.g. the Window object is marked as "Implemented and widely deployed" |
| 13:50 | <annevk> | were we to remove it I would expect that to be noted somewhere |
| 13:51 | <annevk> | now not all of these markers are up to date so there's still some room for confusion |
| 13:51 | <annevk> | it's also not all figured out |
| 14:29 | <adactio> | If <time> is being dropped in favour of a more general <data> element, what is the justification for keeping <nav>, <aside> and <article> ....surely the more general <section> should suffice, by the same logic? |
| 14:30 | <adactio> | (in particular, distinguishing when to use <section> and when to use <article> is something that WHATWGers can't agree on, let alone web developers) |
| 14:31 | <digger3> | applying similar reasoning to any hierarchy of elements will collapse it to the most general element. |
| 14:31 | <digger3> | This isn't even too far off proposing that 1984's newspeak was on too something (yes this is a pseudo-Godwin) |
| 14:32 | <adactio> | But in the specific case of sectioning content, why is more than one element needed? |
| 14:34 | <digger3> | adactio: the additional semantic information needs to support a requirement either grounded in markup or automated information extraction. I'm assuming ththat this holds fothe more specific sectioning elements |
| 14:36 | <adactio> | digger3: then why doesn't that logic apply to <time>? There's the generic <data> (just like <section>) and then the more specific <time> (just like <article> or <aside>). The existence of <data> doesn't negate the need for <time> any more than the existence of <section> negates the need for <aside> (for exactly the parsing reasons you mention). |
| 14:39 | <digger3> | adactio: that argument is perfectly valid, it was certainly not my intention to contest _that_ |
| 14:40 | <adactio> | Could anyone else explain it to me then? annevk? hsivonen? gsnedders? anyone? bueller? |
| 14:43 | <annevk> | adactio, I don't really think there's an analogy to be made between structural elements and an element designed to made a concept machine readable |
| 14:43 | <foolip> | adactio, AFAIK <article> and friends were added as convenient styling hooks based on common class values |
| 14:43 | <foolip> | while the purpose of <time> was for use in microformats and such |
| 14:43 | <foolip> | it may be that people are just using it for styling, though |
| 14:44 | <adactio> | annevk: You don't consider part of the reason for the existence of sectioning content is to allow machine parsing? (e.g. skip navigation) |
| 14:46 | <adactio> | To be clear, I'm not arguing against the existence of <data>; I just don't think it negates the need for a more specific <time> element (in the same way that the existence of <section> doesn't mean there's no reason to have a <nav> element. |
| 14:46 | <adactio> | <time> is to <data> as <article>, <nav> and <aside> are to <section>. |
| 14:46 | <annevk> | I just don't think it's quite the same |
| 14:47 | <annevk> | If you need Microdata to make use of <time> then it might as well be <data> |
| 14:47 | <adactio> | annevk: It's not *quite* the same but it is very very similar. Both use cases have semantic (structural) value as well as machine-reading value (and to a much lesser extent, styling). |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | If there are other uses, they should probably be brought up as they have not been considered |
| 14:48 | <adactio> | annevk: But that's the point: you don't need microdata to make use of time because it's *vocabulary* is pre-set (namely ISO 8601) |
| 14:48 | <foolip> | it's not ISO 8601 |
| 14:48 | <adactio> | annevk: whereas with <data>, the vocabulary is "fuck knows." |
| 14:48 | <foolip> | it's much more limited |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | adactio, see http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13240#c0 |
| 14:49 | <adactio> | foolip: a subset of ISO 8601, yes. The point is: it is pre-defined. |
| 14:49 | <adactio> | annevk: Oh, I've seen it. Believe me, I've seen it. All. Of. It. |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | I mostly used <time> as a replacement for some other construct on my blog, but not sure what the purpose was |
| 14:49 | <webben> | adactio: One of the purposes of the specific sectioning elements is to allow the navigation and reorganisation of content (cf. the ARIA roles to which they are mapped). |
| 14:50 | <adactio> | webben: For that reason, I consider those elements to be machine-readable (as well as conveying semantics) ...just like <time>. |
| 14:51 | <webben> | adactio: Not sure what you're saying. |
| 14:51 | <webben> | adactio: I'm pointing to a reason why making those sectioning semantics machine-readable and part of the core vocabulary is important. |
| 14:53 | <adactio> | webben: and I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm pointing out that putting some elements (section, article, nav, etc.) into the bucket of "structural" while putting other elements (time) into the bucket of "machine readable" isn't a straightforward division. *All* of those elements are both semantic and machine-readable. It's not a binary thing. |
| 14:54 | <webben> | "structural" vs. "machine-readable" does not make sense as a distinction, I agree. |
| 14:55 | <digger3> | machine-readable -> machine-interpretable |
| 14:58 | <webben> | I can imagine <time> having a positive influence on text-to-speech, since tts has traditionally struggled to distinguish numbers from datetimes. The lead time on having important tts agents actually make use of it may be quite long however. |
| 15:17 | <zcorpan> | woah, why did i not know of http://blekko.com/webgrep before? |
| 15:23 | <Ms2ger> | Does Opera support strict mode already? |
| 15:24 | <annevk> | I think we implemented ES5 |
| 15:24 | <zcorpan> | opera.next does i think |
| 15:24 | <boblet> | so sad I missed this conversation :) |
| 15:24 | <divya> | yes opera.next does |
| 15:26 | <Ms2ger> | Want to tell me what http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/1243 logs in .next, then? |
| 15:27 | <zcorpan> | log: wtf |
| 15:27 | <zcorpan> | log: wtf |
| 15:27 | <zcorpan> | log: wtf |
| 15:27 | <zcorpan> | log: wtf |
| 15:27 | <Ms2ger> | That's a bug, then :) |
| 15:27 | <Ms2ger> | But perhaps in WebIDL |
| 15:28 | annevk | heads to TPAC |
| 15:28 | <zcorpan> | yeah i think we have some bugs with webidl/dom and strict |
| 15:29 | <zcorpan> | e.g. setting readonly property doesn't throw TypeError iirc |
| 15:29 | <Ms2ger> | \o/ |
| 15:30 | <zcorpan> | jgraham probably knows better |
| 15:30 | <Ms2ger> | Poke heycam about it, will you? :) |
| 15:33 | <zcorpan> | about what? |
| 15:50 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 15:51 | <Ms2ger> | Good evening, dglazkov |
| 15:52 | <divya> | good nite dglazkov! |
| 15:53 | <dglazkov> | hello timezone-impaired people! :P |
| 15:54 | <divya> | :)) |
| 16:07 | <_bga> | morning is not time, its state of soul |
| 16:07 | <_bga> | :) |
| 16:07 | <divya> | my soul is dark and stormy then |
| 16:11 | <dglazkov> | _bga++ |
| 16:12 | <dglazkov> | and OMG does Mountain View have great mornings or what |
| 16:13 | <divya> | dglazkov: wai u no tpac? |
| 16:13 | <gsnedders> | dglazkov: Dunno. Can you get me plane tickets? |
| 16:14 | <dglazkov> | divya: they are doing plenareeey things in the morning. I am trying to catch up on emails and #whatwg trolling |
| 16:14 | <divya> | sgtm |
| 16:14 | <dglazkov> | gsnedders: only if it's a paper plane |
| 16:15 | <gsnedders> | dglazkov: hmm, might not be great over the Atlantic |
| 16:15 | <dglazkov> | gsnedders: :) |
| 16:15 | <rniwa> | dglazkov: or land patches :D |
| 16:15 | <zcorpan> | anyone know of a good reason why <data value> shouldn't be <global itemvalue>? |
| 16:16 | <dglazkov> | rniwa: :) |
| 16:21 | <foolip> | zcorpan, don't you already know? |
| 16:22 | <divya> | zcorpan: you should check the 100,000 messages on the mailing list because it will surely contain an answer to that question |
| 16:23 | <foolip> | zcorpan, worst case scenario would be <time datetime="" itemvalue=""> where the itemValue reflection can be 3 different things |
| 16:25 | <zcorpan> | divya: pointer? |
| 16:25 | <divya> | zcorpan: i was snarking :P |
| 16:26 | <divya> | its what is the default recommendation :PPP |
| 16:26 | <divya> | (also how broak it is that you need to search mailing list for rationale :/ ) |
| 16:26 | <zcorpan> | foolip: yeah, that's true. could disallow it for elements that don't reflect to their textContent by default, maybe |
| 16:26 | <foolip> | zcorpan, disallow it, of course, but how should it be implemented? |
| 16:26 | <Ms2ger> | divya, there's a wiki page you can add to :) |
| 16:27 | <divya> | Ms2ger: o? where? |
| 16:27 | <divya> | that whatwg wiki? |
| 16:27 | <zcorpan> | foolip: ignore itemvalue? |
| 16:27 | <Ms2ger> | Yep |
| 16:27 | <gsnedders> | divya: Running svn blame on the spec, seeing if there's a bug mentioned in commit message when text you're interested in changed, or searching mailing lists for emails from Hixie around then tends to work |
| 16:27 | <foolip> | zcorpan, in other words, add it in the otherwise clause of http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/microdata.html#dom-itemvalue ? |
| 16:28 | <zcorpan> | gotta go. next stop: örebro c |
| 16:29 | <divya> | gsnedders: :'( its so tedious |
| 16:30 | <foolip> | divya, what change do you want to know about? |
| 16:31 | <foolip> | if it's just that svn is slow, I maintain https://gitorious.org/whatwg/webapps pretty much only for this purpose |
| 16:31 | <divya> | foolip: nothing just generally complaining how it takes a while to figure out why a certain feature exists in the form it does. |
| 16:31 | divya | should shut up now |
| 16:31 | <foolip> | that it does |
| 16:31 | <divya> | foolip: ooo i did not know about that gitorious! |
| 16:32 | <divya> | omg amazing |
| 16:32 | <divya> | at least its not too bad |
| 16:32 | <foolip> | sometimes it's possible to git bisect your way to the right commit, sometimes not |
| 16:54 | <boblet> | this may be of interest to some of you: http://html5doctor.com/time-and-data-element/ |
| 16:54 | <AryehGregor> | Ms2ger, how do I do that again? It's been so long that I've forgotten. |
| 16:54 | <boblet> | although possibly not by now :) |
| 16:55 | <Ms2ger> | hg pull -u in your source folder |
| 16:55 | <Ms2ger> | and sudo python setup.py install, IIRC |
| 16:56 | <AryehGregor> | Printed out a bunch of stuff that doesn't look like errors. |
| 16:56 | <AryehGregor> | I guess we'll see if it works. |
| 16:56 | <Ms2ger> | Heh |
| 17:02 | <digger3> | boblet: excellent story and considerations |
| 17:03 | <boblet> | digger3: thank you. it’s all due to annevk5 and foolip’s excellent feedback :) |
| 17:19 | <MikeSmith> | dglazkov: did anybody get back to you about the room yet? |
| 18:25 | <dglazkov> | Mike[tm]: yus |
| 18:26 | <dglazkov> | In addition, I managed to misplace, panic about it, and recover the key to the room in about 10 minutes. |
| 18:27 | <dglazkov> | excellent fodder for your next nightmare |
| 18:27 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 18:35 | <MikeSmith> | abarth: I just switched on your commit perms for http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/content-security-policy |
| 18:35 | <abarth> | thanks! |
| 18:35 | <MikeSmith> | please try it and make sure it works |
| 18:39 | <abarth> | abort: authorization failed |
| 18:39 | <abarth> | maybe i have the wrong password |
| 18:40 | <MikeSmith> | abarth: it should be the same username and password as your W3C web login |
| 18:40 | <MikeSmith> | we use the same ldap db for both |
| 18:40 | <abarth> | success! |
| 18:40 | <abarth> | thanks |
| 18:40 | <MikeSmith> | cheers |
| 19:15 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, look |
| 19:15 | <Ms2ger> | testharness.js' logging in broken in XHTML documents |
| 19:15 | <Ms2ger> | Guess why |
| 19:20 | <bhearsum> | does HTML5 support 'put', 'delete', and other methods on forms? if so, which browsers have support for it? |
| 19:20 | <bhearsum> | hmm, i can probably test this myself |
| 19:21 | <Ms2ger> | Hi bhearsum |
| 19:21 | <bhearsum> | hi Ms2ger :) |
| 19:22 | <Ms2ger> | HTML supported it for a while, IIRC, but it was removed for lack of use cases |
| 19:22 | <bhearsum> | doesn't look like HTML5 supports it, either, based on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/forms.html#the-form-element and it not validating with http://html5.validator.nu/ |
| 19:30 | <Hixie> | so which room are people in at tpac? |
| 19:54 | <hober> | component model at 1:30 in room 1234 |
| 20:11 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: that may be the cause of some problem I had with running the DOM4 test suite |
| 20:11 | <Ms2ger> | That's where it hit me |
| 20:12 | <Ms2ger> | All the xhtml tests time out |
| 20:28 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Oh. I thought I fixed that for the SVG folks |
| 20:28 | <jgraham> | But I guess AryehGregor broke it again |
| 20:28 | <jgraham> | Should add a TC |
| 20:47 | <annevk> | so if you set <textarea>'s raw value to \r\n you get \r\r\n? |
| 20:48 | <annevk> | on submission |
| 21:08 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, does the test harness itself have a test suite to detect breakage, that I should run to check that any changes of mine are correct? |
| 21:12 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: The apisample files |
| 21:12 | <jgraham> | I think there is one bug there at the moment |
| 21:12 | AryehGregor | notes for the future |
| 21:12 | <jgraham> | (they don't all say "PASS", you have to read the description) |
| 21:20 | <AryehGregor> | jgraham, you should make a README or HACKING file or something with instructions on how to write patches/test they're correct/get review/etc. |
| 21:23 | <jgraham> | AryehGregor: Good idea |
| 23:30 | <Salt> | whatwg is to w3, as ? |
| 23:31 | <kennyluck> | www-style is to the CSS working group. |
| 23:33 | <Salt> | officially watched public channel? |
| 23:38 | <Salt> | or is it a publicly accessible official channel? |
| 23:40 | <kennyluck> | Salt, it's a public mailing list. |
| 23:41 | <kennyluck> | I am talking about www-style. |
| 23:41 | <Salt> | www-style is somewhat official watched |
| 23:52 | <jgraham> | So how upset are people oing to get if we start asking for a (possibly coarse-grained) url for the part of the spec being tested in testharness tests? |