| 00:19 | <heycam> | how do you mark up constructor definitions with respec? |
| 00:19 | <heycam> | ("asking for a friend") |
| 00:23 | <zewt> | ("it's not mine, baby") |
| 00:23 | <heycam> | is http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/ actually the latest version of respec? |
| 00:24 | <heycam> | because I've found a copy that does support <dt>Constructor()</dt>, but that one's not it |
| 00:32 | <TabAtkins> | heycam: No, clearly that version is from 2009. |
| 00:32 | <TabAtkins> | Use the github version, I believe. |
| 00:32 | <heycam> | heh "clearly" :) |
| 00:32 | <heycam> | oh |
| 00:32 | <heycam> | I duck duck went "respec github" but didn't find anything |
| 00:33 | <TabAtkins> | There's your problem, clearly that's not googling. |
| 00:33 | <heycam> | (I use DDG primarily so I can smirk while I type "duck duck went", obviously) |
| 00:33 | heycam | finds https://github.com/darobin/respec |
| 00:34 | <TabAtkins> | There you go. |
| 00:37 | heycam | gives up and does the minimal work required to make the output of this old respec pass pubrules :\ |
| 00:45 | <TabAtkins> | zcorpan: Why does the ScrollOptions dict in http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#extensions-to-the-window-interface have an x and y member? |
| 02:30 | <Domenic_> | Any ideas why step 8 does not come after step 11 here? Hixie_? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/web-messaging.html#dom-window-postmessage |
| 02:44 | <Hixie_> | Domenic_: interesting question |
| 02:45 | <Hixie_> | Domenic_: i would guess it relates to something the algorithm used to do but wasn't changed |
| 02:45 | <Hixie_> | was changed and doesn't do any more, that is |
| 06:18 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: for element.scrollTop and scrollLeft |
| 08:30 | <kochi1> | MikeSmith: ping? |
| 08:31 | <MikeSmith> | kochi1: hey |
| 08:31 | <kochi1> | hi |
| 08:31 | <kochi1> | MikeSmith: is it okay to present in Japanese (both speech and screen)? |
| 08:31 | <MikeSmith> | kochi1: yup |
| 08:31 | <kochi1> | or English is preferred? |
| 08:32 | <MikeSmith> | kochi1: no, Japanese is preferred |
| 08:32 | <kochi1> | MikeSmith: ah, ok, thanks! |
| 08:33 | <MikeSmith> | cheers |
| 08:33 | <kochi1> | MikeSmith: I sent you my slide deck a while ago. if you have anything, please let me know. |
| 08:34 | <MikeSmith> | kochi1: yep, got it. Will do |
| 08:34 | <kochi1> | MikeSmith: thanks! |
| 08:54 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: did you read the comments in the clonee? https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23032 |
| 08:55 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: the bug is *not* about hosing to head when template is found *in* body |
| 08:56 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: it's about hoisting to head when found *between* </head> and <body> |
| 09:25 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Reviewed and merged |
| 09:25 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: thanks |
| 09:25 | <jgraham> | Thanks for doing the work :) |
| 09:26 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: BTW, as a person that writes tests, do you have any opinion on a requirement to put non-test-files in a subdirectory called "resources/"? |
| 09:26 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: that doesn't always work |
| 09:27 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: works as a guideline though |
| 09:27 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: An example of where it fails would be nice :) |
| 09:27 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: e.g. i recall testing new Worker(null) which requires a "null" file in the same directory |
| 09:28 | <jgraham> | Nice example |
| 09:28 | <jgraham> | I think when it fails you can work around it using window.open() and writing the whole test in a different window |
| 09:28 | <jgraham> | My feeling is that it's a bit silly |
| 09:29 | <zcorpan> | what part is silly? |
| 09:31 | <jgraham> | requiring a resources/ subdirectory |
| 09:32 | <jgraham> | The purported reason is to make it easier to tell what is a test and what isn't |
| 09:32 | <annevk> | jamesr__: excellent, thanks! |
| 09:32 | <jgraham> | But you still have to parse the files to get metadata out, so that doesn't seem like a big win |
| 09:33 | <zcorpan> | ok. yeah. it might be useful to be able to identify which files are tests (and maybe also what kind of test), but that could be done by a naming conversion of the test files or something |
| 09:35 | <jgraham> | Well |
| 09:36 | <jgraham> | My feeling is that actually running the tests in automation is going to require a manifest to be produced at some stage, and that putting all the manifest data into a filename is a non-starter (e.g. the ref for reftests, the timeout) |
| 09:37 | <jgraham> | So I'm not sure it's a big enough win to require that all testharness tests end with -test or something to make it worth the hassle |
| 09:37 | <zcorpan> | true |
| 09:38 | <zcorpan> | so require the appropriate metadata in the tests instead? |
| 09:40 | <jgraham> | Yeah, I think that's the way this is going |
| 09:48 | <annevk> | zcorpan: I don't get http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/#dom-window-scroll |
| 09:49 | <zcorpan> | annevk: which part? |
| 09:49 | <annevk> | zcorpan: where are the dictionary x/y unpacked |
| 09:49 | <annevk> | zcorpan: and if you are going to accept a dictionary, why not just make it the first argument and only argument |
| 09:50 | <annevk> | zcorpan: and support x/y/deltaX/deltaY or some such |
| 09:50 | <zcorpan> | annevk: the dictionary x/y aren't used for that method |
| 09:51 | <zcorpan> | annevk: dict as only argument would have worse backcompat |
| 09:51 | <zcorpan> | but it appears you're not the first being confused by ScrollOptions |
| 09:51 | <annevk> | Oh, I see, you should add a comment there |
| 09:51 | <annevk> | Or maybe just use different dictionaries |
| 09:51 | <zcorpan> | maybe i should use different dicts, yeah |
| 09:52 | <zcorpan> | dicts can inherit, right? |
| 09:52 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 09:53 | <annevk> | events use that all over |
| 09:53 | <zcorpan> | ah yeah |
| 09:56 | <zcorpan> | filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23048 |
| 10:02 | <zcorpan> | how can something be "hundreds of times smaller"? http://www.heydonworks.com/article/font-hacking |
| 10:03 | <zcorpan> | 100% smaller means a size of 0, no? |
| 10:05 | <annevk> | If X is hundreds of times smaller than Y, I think it means that Y × hundreds = X |
| 10:06 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: So it seems that there's a bug in the submitted version of the html5lib tests, and they should probably be updated anyway. Are you able to dig up the scripts to generate them from t/ and submit them? |
| 10:06 | <annevk> | Wait, X × hundreds = Y |
| 10:06 | <annevk> | clearly I needed more sleep |
| 10:09 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: /core/standards/html-parsing/html5lib_harness/ ? |
| 10:09 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Sounnds right |
| 10:10 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: PR into https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/tree/master/html/syntax/parsing ? |
| 10:11 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: I think the python bits should maybe go into tools/scripts |
| 10:11 | <jgraham> | I'm not really sure though |
| 10:13 | <zcorpan> | doesn't that just make it harder to find? :-) |
| 10:16 | <jgraham> | Probably |
| 10:42 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20599#c6 says that ISO-2022-JP is not ASCII compatible? |
| 10:42 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: it's ASCII-compatible enough, but it's really bad |
| 10:43 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: what does "enough" mean? |
| 10:43 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: that unless you use the escape sequence, you'll be in ASCII-land |
| 11:23 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Yay! |
| 11:24 | jgraham | can't review those, really |
| 11:45 | <zcorpan> | the legal analysis in http://www.heydonworks.com/article/font-hacking seems dubious, it's still a derivative work of arial bold |
| 11:50 | <jgraham> | At least in the US I think that the actual letter outlines can't be protected by copyright |
| 11:50 | <jgraham> | The font file itself can be though |
| 11:51 | <jgraham> | So taking a letter, tweaking it a bit, and generating a whole new font file (without copying the extra data like kerning and so on) seems fine |
| 11:51 | <jgraham> | (I guess that is not what is happening there) |
| 11:52 | <Ms2ger> | Well, "fine" |
| 11:52 | <Ms2ger> | It's still Arial |
| 12:05 | <zcorpan> | one fun application would be to swap two glyphs and use for comment fields so that commenters think they're typo-ing over and over |
| 12:09 | <foolip> | zcorpan, brilliant :D |
| 12:09 | <foolip> | plus a hidden cam/screencast please |
| 12:12 | <odinho> | annevk: do you see actual × or just the symbol ·? |
| 12:12 | <Ms2ger> | × is � |
| 12:13 | <zcorpan> | annevk has an HTML parser in his brain so he sees × |
| 12:31 | <odinho> | × · yeah true dat. We used · in norway at school. |
| 12:35 | <zcorpan> | we used vertical tilde to mess with matjas years later |
| 12:37 | <Ms2ger> | We start using � about when me move from calculating to mathematics here |
| 12:39 | <matjas> | :( |
| 12:39 | <Ms2ger> | (Vertical tilde?) |
| 12:40 | <matjas> | Ms2ger: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/es-discuss/2013-August/032715.html |
| 12:40 | <matjas> | zcorpan: re: glyph swapping, there is actually an scriptless XSS-like attack that makes use of this |
| 12:41 | <Ms2ger> | Scriptless cross-site-scripting? |
| 12:41 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: trying to run update.py i get ImportError: No module named killableprocess. maybe i have an old python. but maybe i can just submit the scripts without updating myself? |
| 12:41 | <matjas> | Ms2ger: yup, see http://www.slideshare.net/x00mario/stealing-the-pie/9 |
| 12:42 | <matjas> | i.e. using <input type=password> with a custom font that swaps the glyphs |
| 12:42 | <matjas> | then tricking the user into thinking it’s a captcha |
| 12:42 | <Ms2ger> | Heh |
| 12:42 | <matjas> | all it takes it for an attacker to be able to inject CSS on a login page, and boom |
| 12:44 | <zcorpan> | matjas: the font doesn't get applied for me in opera/chrome/firefox |
| 12:44 | <matjas> | zcorpan: used to work in Opera 12 iirc |
| 12:45 | <zcorpan> | matjas: is the attack using password autofill? |
| 12:45 | <matjas> | zcorpan: yeah |
| 12:46 | <zcorpan> | matjas: why would it prefill on the attacker's page? |
| 12:46 | <matjas> | zcorpan: the idea is that it is not the attacker’s page |
| 12:47 | <matjas> | but a page where an attacker can inject css |
| 12:47 | <matjas> | and then later make the result submit to his own server using some other trick from that slide deck |
| 12:47 | <matjas> | very edge-casey, but also pretty scary |
| 12:50 | <zcorpan> | i don't see the trick to submit to the attacker's server |
| 12:52 | <matjas> | hmm, me neither |
| 12:52 | matjas | watches http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dxsTFwFqf4 |
| 12:54 | zcorpan | sees http://html5sec.org/keylogger/ but that's not css-only |
| 12:56 | matjas | shrugs ¯_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 12:59 | zcorpan | can't figure out what the attack with dirname is about, the demo link doesn't seem to work |
| 13:00 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Oh, killableprocess should be kicking about somewhere. With opjsunit if nowhere else |
| 13:01 | <gsnedders> | in opjsunit/harness/killableprocess.py |
| 13:02 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: But it is fine to just submit the scripts; I can do the update |
| 13:02 | <jgraham> | If needed |
| 13:02 | <jgraham> | (I also have to fix some bug, so it's probably easier if I do it) |
| 13:06 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 13:06 | <zcorpan> | should i put killableprocess.py in the html5lib_harness dir? |
| 13:07 | <annevk> | Domenic_: http://annevankesteren.nl/2013/08/promises |
| 13:09 | annevk | edits a bit |
| 13:14 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Sure |
| 13:14 | <jgraham> | Or yes |
| 13:14 | <jgraham> | I think what I mean is "if you do that and it's wrong, I can sort it out" :) |
| 13:22 | <hsivonen> | The SVG keylogger is interesting. Which browsers "support" it? |
| 13:29 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: do you want all the files in html5lib_harness? |
| 13:31 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: I don't remember what all the files are :) |
| 13:46 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: why is /s/ not reset after 7 in http://mimesniff.spec.whatwg.org/#pattern-matching-algorithm |
| 13:47 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: I also don't really understand what the masking thing does |
| 13:48 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: if I want ZIP it seems I should just sniff for "50 4B 03 04" and then go with it, no? |
| 14:01 | <zcorpan> | annevk: the mask is if you want case-insensitive on some parts or have some bytes be ignored |
| 14:01 | <zcorpan> | annevk: if you want literal match the mask should be just FFs |
| 14:08 | <annevk> | k |
| 14:08 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: https://github.com/zcorpan/web-platform-tests/commit/b008dd48548f7b76732e2f8968ad6c267ba62e4c |
| 14:09 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Great, thanks |
| 14:13 | <zcorpan> | np |
| 14:24 | <Domenic_> | annevk: awesome. also really cool blink-dev thread! it would be very nice to move promises from blink to v8. |
| 14:35 | <mpt> | Does anyone know of sites already using <input type="datetime"> or <input type="datetime-local"> for non-demo purposes? |
| 14:51 | <zcorpan> | mpt: $ grep -Eir "<input\s[^>]*type\s*=\s*[\"']datetime" . for http://webdevdata.org latest data set 18/06/2013 gives 0 matches |
| 14:52 | <zcorpan> | hmm, forgot to make the quote optional |
| 14:55 | <zcorpan> | this data set has just front pages which i guess usually don't have date inputs |
| 14:58 | <zcorpan> | mpt: still no datetimes, but i see a few date inputs |
| 15:00 | <zcorpan> | 48 to be exact |
| 15:01 | <zcorpan> | http://pastebin.com/ZPRQPGCB |
| 15:02 | zcorpan | *poof* |
| 15:08 | <mpt> | gah |
| 15:51 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: The pattern matching algorithm loops through the bytes one by one; /s/ is the position in the sequence. Loop 7 loops through the bytes to be ignored; loop 8 loops through the bytes to be matched. |
| 15:52 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: If you're matching the ZIP pattern, you would exit loop 7 at step 2 during the first iteration. |
| 15:52 | <Ms2ger> | Did I just see darobin suggesting to parse HTML with a regexp? |
| 15:52 | <darobin> | FEAR MY REGEXP SKILZ! |
| 15:54 | Ms2ger | locks darobin up |
| 15:54 | <darobin> | s/locks?//g # haha! |
| 16:02 | Ms2ger | darobin up |
| 16:44 | <TabAtkins> | zcorpan: Can you explain how the x/y arguments in the dict actually do anything? They're not mentioned in any part of the scroll() algorithm. |
| 16:45 | <Ms2ger> | TabAtkins, are they used in another method that takes the same dictionary as an argument? |
| 16:45 | <TabAtkins> | zcorpan: Yeah, now that you've changed the title I get that. I read the comments, but must have skimmed over the relevant bit in Comment 3 or wahtever. |
| 16:46 | <TabAtkins> | Ms2ger: Ah, thanks, that's it. |
| 16:46 | <TabAtkins> | Now I understand what he meant by "scrollTop". |
| 16:47 | <Ms2ger> | Np |
| 17:23 | <annevk> | GPHemsley: I'll take your word for it :) |
| 17:28 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: Btw, thanks for all the Promise work. Sorry I've still been poking at things, but I've been trying my best to keep the Promises/A+ side of it unchanged. |
| 17:29 | <annevk> | Thank Domenic_, really |
| 17:30 | <TabAtkins> | Yes, he deserves a lot of praise too. ^_^ |
| 17:30 | <TabAtkins> | Hugs and kisses, Domenic_ ! |
| 17:31 | <Domenic_> | ^_^ |
| 17:31 | <lecuyer> | hey TabAtkins, has there ever been any discussion of an :all-children-match() type pseudo-class in the selectors spec? |
| 17:31 | <TabAtkins> | What does this do? |
| 17:31 | <lecuyer> | it matches only if all children match :) example: |
| 17:32 | <lecuyer> | ul:all-children-match(li > img:only-child) whould match a UL, every child of which contains *only* an img |
| 17:33 | <TabAtkins> | No, nothing like this has been discussed. |
| 17:33 | <lecuyer> | the primary usecase is if you're generating html from markdown and you have a list of images that you'd like to display as a gallery |
| 17:33 | <TabAtkins> | And, interestingly, it can't be done with the subject indicator. |
| 17:34 | <TabAtkins> | But still, this'll probably land in the "complete" profile, which means "usable in querySelector, but not in CSS". |
| 17:34 | <Domenic_> | subject indicator is my favorite indicator!!!!! |
| 17:35 | <lecuyer> | I've been kicking this around in my head for a little while, but I'll write up something more complete after I vet it out a bit |
| 17:37 | <TabAtkins> | Seems kinda niche, but potentially interesting. |
| 17:37 | <GPHemsley> | annevk: Well, if you think that's not the case, perhaps I need to tweak the wording. Feedback welcome. ;) |
| 17:37 | <TabAtkins> | We really need to add custom pseudo-classes so these kinds of things can be added without us having to worry about slowing down the whole language. |
| 17:49 | <Domenic_> | +1 |
| 19:10 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: let me know if the spec is less confusing now that i've split the dict into several |
| 19:18 | <TabAtkins> | zcorpan: Yeah, that's clearer. I wonder if it's best to keep it as it is, or move the *Hor/Vert ones to the Element IDL block, where they're actually used? |
| 19:19 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: i thought about that also. i can move them if you think that's better |
| 19:19 | <TabAtkins> | I usually find it nice to see things defined where they're used, rather than having to puzzle about why the definition exists. |
| 19:25 | <zcorpan> | ok done, thanks |
| 19:25 | <TabAtkins> | No, thank you! |
| 19:28 | <zcorpan> | on a separate note, i wonder if it would be good to get some more people (relevant developers from non-gecko browsers) give their opinion about how setProperty should work |
| 19:29 | <TabAtkins> | Probably. |
| 19:30 | <zcorpan> | maybe i should file a bug about it and summarize the issue first |
| 19:33 | <zcorpan> | but not today |
| 19:38 | <zcorpan> | Hixie_: for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22452 can't this be fixed by adding 'or <?xml-stylesheet?> PI' to http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/semantics.html#has-a-style-sheet-that-is-blocking-scripts |
| 19:38 | <zcorpan> | Hixie_: (ignoring Link: ) |
| 19:38 | <Hixie_> | how would that help <?xml-stylesheet> in SVG? |
| 19:40 | <zcorpan> | does the SVG spec say to block on <script>? |
| 19:40 | <Hixie_> | no idea what it says |
| 19:41 | <zcorpan> | http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG2/script.html#ScriptElement |
| 19:41 | <zcorpan> | the annotations suggest they want to do whatever HTML does |
| 19:42 | <zcorpan> | so that's how it helps SVG :-) |
| 19:42 | <Hixie_> | if it was up to me we'd drop <?xml-stylesheet> entirely |
| 19:42 | <Hixie_> | but my point is it shouldn't be defined in two places |
| 19:43 | <zcorpan> | yeah, we'll see if it flies for XSLT |
| 19:43 | <Hixie_> | it should be defined in one place |
| 19:43 | <zcorpan> | if it does we could remove it for CSS also |
| 19:43 | <Hixie_> | if it was up to me we'd drop xslt entirely |
| 19:43 | <zcorpan> | that's what abarth is trying to do :-) |
| 19:43 | <Hixie_> | that's what i've heard |
| 19:49 | <Hixie_> | sweet kittens there's over 3000 lines of non-quoted material to read on this script preloading thread |
| 19:50 | <Hixie_> | 78 pages if i print it! |
| 19:50 | <Hixie_> | http://damowmow.com/temp/script-preloading-thread-2013 |
| 19:51 | <TabAtkins> | Yes, SVG wants to just do whatever HTML is doing. |
| 19:51 | <Hixie_> | 2500 lines not counting blank lines |
| 19:52 | <Hixie_> | that's a small novel i gotta read on this |
| 19:52 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie_, might be impossible, but things that are impossible just take longer |
| 19:52 | <TabAtkins> | Please, novella at best. |
| 19:52 | <Hixie_> | definitely not impossible |
| 19:52 | <Hixie_> | TabAtkins: that's what a "small novel" is :-P |
| 19:52 | <TabAtkins> | Bah. |
| 19:53 | Hixie_ | resists the temptation to just play Papers Please instead |
| 19:53 | <Hixie_> | wow, according to google only one person has ever written "It seems that people want something that:" on the Internet (me) |
| 19:53 | <Hixie_> | crazy |
| 19:54 | <Ms2ger> | http://forums.elementalgame.com/435414/page/2/#3263997 ? |
| 19:55 | <Hixie_> | Ms2ger: that's not quite the same (lower case "it", since it's not the start of a sentence) |
| 19:58 | <Philip`> | (Glory to Arstotzka!) |
| 20:01 | <zcorpan> | Hixie_: just use the test minimization procedure. remove half of the lines, see if the spec bug reproduces |
| 20:05 | <annevk> | Hixie_: did you look at HTML imports? |
| 20:06 | <Hixie_> | Philip`++ |
| 20:07 | <annevk> | zcorpan: should really get rid of Link |
| 20:07 | <Hixie_> | zcorpan: half of the lines of the e-mails, or of the spec? cos i don't think either will work :-P |
| 20:07 | <Hixie_> | annevk: no |
| 20:08 | <annevk> | Hixie_: it seems to be happening, I recommend skimming through https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/imports/index.html at least |
| 20:08 | <Hixie_> | k |
| 20:08 | <zcorpan> | Hixie_: of the e-mails was my thinking :-) |
| 20:08 | <zcorpan> | annevk: get it removed in gecko |
| 20:08 | <Hixie_> | zcorpan: the spec bug occurs even with all the lines removed :-) |
| 20:08 | <zcorpan> | Hixie_: snap |
| 20:09 | <annevk> | Is Zip already exposed in the platform btw? I wonder what version of Zip we should require... |
| 20:09 | <zcorpan> | what do browsers support for extensions etc? |
| 20:10 | <annevk> | dunno |
| 20:10 | <annevk> | which reminds me, we also need a JavaScript API to go along with this |
| 20:11 | <annevk> | I'm thinking something that operates on a Blob... |
| 20:11 | <annevk> | new Zip(blob).get(filename).then(...) |
| 20:11 | <annevk> | new Zip(blob).getIndex().then(...) |
| 20:14 | <MikeSmith> | wha where did Link come from? |
| 20:14 | <MikeSmith> | old IE? |
| 20:20 | <annevk> | IETF |
| 20:20 | annevk | isn't actually sure |
| 20:20 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 20:21 | <zcorpan> | IE doesn't support it last i checked (dunno about newer IEs) |
| 20:22 | zcorpan | considers adding all the things François is asking for |
| 20:23 | <SimonSapin> | zcorpan: are implementers on board? |
| 20:24 | <zcorpan> | SimonSapin: nobody has commented one way or the other, i think |
| 20:25 | <zcorpan> | but it's trivial things that make sense to expose, really |
| 20:26 | <MikeSmith> | about zip, looked at some existing js libs to see how people do it now, and came across http://gildas-lormeau.github.io/zip.js/core-api.html, which looks interesting and good for what it is. API doesn't use promises but it does use workers and the File API. |
| 20:26 | <zcorpan> | it's just that the use case stated so far is polyfill and i'm not so comfortable adding new stuff to help with just polyfilling |
| 20:27 | <Domenic_> | people want zip badly |
| 20:27 | <Domenic_> | writing git in the browser is one use case iirc. |
| 20:27 | <Domenic_> | i will ask what the others were |
| 20:27 | <SimonSapin> | Domenic_: does git use zip files? |
| 20:28 | <Domenic_> | SimonSapin: I think so, perhaps inflate |
| 20:28 | <Domenic_> | 16:28:14 <Raynos> Domenic_: ws.pipe(zip()).pipe(app).pipe(unzip()).pipe(ws) |
| 20:28 | <Domenic_> | 16:28:21 <jesusabdullah> Domenic_: Because in my app I want to be able to download a zipball, crank that puppy open in-memory, let my app's users modify it, and then repackage it and ship it back up ^__^ |
| 20:29 | <Domenic_> | 16:28:49 <jesusabdullah> Domenic_: lots of native apps use zipballs as a sort of ad-hoc custom filetype |
| 20:29 | <Domenic_> | ^ that's a big one, word document readers in the browser or whatnot. |
| 20:29 | <SimonSapin> | I agree zip is useful, but I believe not for implementing git |
| 20:29 | <Domenic_> | SimonSapin: I believe creationix is already using it |
| 20:31 | <SimonSapin> | the git protocol might use gzip |
| 20:32 | <Domenic_> | maybe it is just for downloading zipballs from github that he is using it, but i am 80% certain he is using a zip implementation. |
| 20:32 | <Domenic_> | http://git-scm.com/book/en/Git-Internals-Packfiles |
| 20:34 | <SimonSapin> | Domenic_: that’s gzip |
| 20:34 | <Domenic_> | SimonSapin: yeah probably. Or rather, zlib, of some sort. |
| 20:35 | <SimonSapin> | zip and gzip have in common the use of deflate compression, but gzip only applies to a stream of bytes while zip contains files and directories |
| 20:35 | <Domenic_> | I see |
| 20:36 | <Domenic_> | Well I think what people mostly want is gzip then; zipballs would be a nice convenience, but they are willing to parse out the zip format if necessary. |
| 20:36 | <Domenic_> | But the actual compression is what they want most, since it'll be faster natively. |
| 20:38 | <SimonSapin> | my understanding of what annevk is working on is to have URLs extract files from zip. eg <img src=foo.zip#path=image.png> (syntax still undecided) |
| 20:38 | <SimonSapin> | and secondarily expose a JS API, because why not |
| 20:38 | <Domenic_> | I see |
| 20:39 | <Philip`> | Domenic_: Sounds like people would actually want zlib, not gzip |
| 20:39 | <Philip`> | (gzip adds it own file headers which you normally don't want) |
| 20:40 | <Domenic_> | 16:39:51 <dlmanning> A mobile webapp wants to compress a generated file for upload over limited bandwidth? |
| 20:40 | <annevk> | I suppose we could expose DEFLATE |
| 20:40 | <Domenic_> | Philip`: hmm, probably! |
| 20:40 | <annevk> | new Zip could even be explained in terms of that maybe... layers |
| 20:41 | Philip` | wonders if anyone has measured the performance of the inflate algorithm in JS |
| 20:41 | <Philip`> | (compared to a native implementation) |
| 20:41 | <SimonSapin> | sounds like something asm.js would be good at |
| 20:41 | <annevk> | Philip`: I think lack of that comparison is why we haven't shipped a native thingie yet |
| 20:53 | <Hixie_> | annevk: Link came from me getting plinss to implement it back in 1999~2000 or so :-( https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3248 is the closest bug i could find |
| 20:53 | <Hixie_> | (actually, looks like plinss was gone by the time Link got implemented) |
| 20:54 | <Hixie_> | Link: for CSS is actually a pretty useful feature, since it lets you set a stylesheet site-wide without editing the pages involved |
| 21:16 | <annevk> | It's the only way to style a .txt |
| 21:16 | <annevk> | Or a .jpg, etc. |
| 21:16 | <annevk> | Thanks to the magic that is loading something in a browsing context... |
| 21:17 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, how about poking at the DOM of an iframe? |
| 21:17 | <annevk> | top-level browsing context* |
| 21:17 | <Ms2ger> | Better :) |
| 21:25 | <Domenic_> | style a .txt O_o |
| 21:25 | <Domenic_> | I guess I could see it. |
| 21:50 | <annevk> | Domenic_: http://annevankesteren.com/robots.txt |
| 21:50 | <annevk> | Domenic_: http://annevankesteren.com/favicon.ico is an image that's styled |
| 21:51 | <Domenic_> | annevk: nice :D. Firefox doesn't seem to like the .ico, but the robots.txt is ingenious. |
| 21:55 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie_: interesting (just read that bug about Link) |
| 21:58 | <annevk> | Domenic_: oh I forgot it's also recursive because of this: http://annevankesteren.com/dark.css |
| 21:59 | <annevk> | that's prolly the most fun example |
| 21:59 | <annevk> | CSS inception |
| 21:59 | <Hixie_> | the most fun i've had doing that was importing XBL with a Link:ed sheet |
| 21:59 | <Hixie_> | so you could make text/plain files interactive, e.g. |
| 22:00 | <annevk> | hehe, I doubt that's ever coming back given security, but yeah, that's pretty neat |
| 22:57 | <Hixie_> | is there documentation anywhere on module loading in JS? |
| 23:02 | <MikeSmith> | so (bikeshed alert/opportunity), I'd like to have more tests for the validator (mainly, more document-conformance test coverage of the HTML spec itself as opposed to SVG or whatever document-conformance tests ) and it seems like maintaining them in https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests would be a good way to help get that. But I'm wondering where. basically, either web-platform-tests/validation/html vs web-platform-tests/html/validation? (and so fo |
| 23:03 | <MikeSmith> | and maybe some word other than "validation", since that's used for other things too |
| 23:04 | <MikeSmith> | web-platform-tests/doc-conformance/html |
| 23:04 | <MikeSmith> | web-platform-tests/validator/html |
| 23:11 | <Hixie_> | MikeSmith: i'd use "conf-checkers", "conformance-checkers", or "validators", or something, probably. the point being to make it plural, to avoid confusion with other uses of the term "valid" in this context. |
| 23:12 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie_: ok yeah, good point |
| 23:14 | <MikeSmith> | I'll go with "conformance-checkers" since that's the exact term the spec uses |
| 23:14 | <TabAtkins> | Woo, Servo passes Acid 1! https://twitter.com/metajack/status/371041675633647616 |
| 23:14 | <TabAtkins> | Just some text-rendering differences from the reference. |
| 23:14 | <Hixie_> | yeah i heard about that |
| 23:14 | <Hixie_> | impressive |
| 23:15 | <Hixie_> | only 15 more years of work to do :-) |
| 23:15 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, but compressed. ^_^ |
| 23:15 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 23:15 | <Hixie_> | actually there's more than just text-rendering differences |
| 23:16 | <Hixie_> | it also doesn't seem to have rendered the radio buttons... |
| 23:16 | <Hixie_> | that's less impressive |
| 23:16 | <gsnedders> | TabAtkins: And really it's the whole site compat issue that's the challenge. |
| 23:16 | <gsnedders> | There are known parts of the platform that are incompatible as spec'd. |
| 23:16 | <gsnedders> | (Document loading, for example) |
| 23:16 | <Hixie_> | gsnedders: that should be a lot less of a problem than it was 10 years ago |
| 23:16 | <Hixie_> | still big, but not as big |
| 23:17 | <gsnedders> | Hixie_: Well, yes. |
| 23:17 | <gsnedders> | Hixie_: But the pace of development of the platform is far quicker than a decade ago, so managing to sort out site compat issues while keeping up with competition is far harder. |
| 23:17 | <Hixie_> | fair enough |
| 23:18 | <Hixie_> | do you think we'll have teh specs sorted out before or after servo catches up to that? :-) |
| 23:18 | <gsnedders> | We'll sort them out because of Servo hitting incompatibilies with the specs. |
| 23:18 | <gsnedders> | I really, really want to see Servo succeed, as it would be the proof that all this work in getting specs to match reality has actually worked. |
| 23:19 | <TabAtkins> | And when Servo starts seriously doing table rendering, FOR GODS SAKES HAVE SOMEONE WRITE THE TABLE RENDERING SPEC BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCES. |
| 23:19 | <Hixie_> | gsnedders++ |
| 23:19 | <Hixie_> | TabAtkins: hah |
| 23:19 | <TabAtkins> | We missed having MS do that when they rewrote their table code for IE8, and it's not going to happen until another browser does a rewrite. |
| 23:19 | <gsnedders> | Hixie_: I presume you dealt with all of jgraham's feedback on the document loading stuff from Zombie-Presto? |
| 23:19 | <MikeSmith> | Shiki Okasaka seems to have managed to implement a lot without running into huge spec-incompatibility issues |
| 23:19 | <Hixie_> | gsnedders: it's either dealt with or in the queue |
| 23:19 | <gsnedders> | Hixie_: I could've guessed that! |
| 23:20 | <Hixie_> | i don't know which were jgraham's and which where bz's |
| 23:20 | <Hixie_> | bz filed a bunch too |
| 23:20 | <gsnedders> | :) |
| 23:20 | <Hixie_> | some are definitely not yet resolved |
| 23:20 | <Hixie_> | i moved from bugs to e-mail before finishing them |
| 23:21 | <gsnedders> | jgraham filed a lot when we were rewriting the document loading code based on that. It obviously didn't work with real sites, and in the end never got far enough to ship before Presto-Death. |
| 23:21 | <MikeSmith> | "At this point, Escort web browser implements CSS 2.1 specification relatively well and passes the Acid2 test. It also passes about 90% of the tests in the CSS2.1 Conformance Test Suite." https://code.google.com/p/es-operating-system/wiki/UsingEscort |
| 23:22 | <gsnedders> | (In other news, why am I bothering arguing with people on Reddit saying the British railways should be renationalized?) |
| 23:22 | <Hixie_> | gsnedders: i don't recall the problems being that severe. there were issues, certainly, but it wasn't like it needed a complete rewrite. |
| 23:22 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: But how does it do given, say, the long tail of websites? |
| 23:22 | <Hixie_> | gsnedders: rail or rolling stock? |
| 23:22 | <gsnedders> | Hixie_: Severe enough it was totally unshippable. |
| 23:22 | <MikeSmith> | gsnedders: dunno |
| 23:22 | <gsnedders> | Hixie_: TOCs |
| 23:23 | <Hixie_> | gsnedders: so rolling stock? |
| 23:23 | <gsnedders> | Hixie_: And ROSCOs |
| 23:23 | <gsnedders> | Hixie_: (rolling stock is owned by a different set of companies (ROSCOs) than those that run the services (TOCs)) |
| 23:24 | <Hixie_> | that's messed up |
| 23:24 | <MikeSmith> | (https://github.com/esrille/escudo/tree/master/src/css for the curious) |
| 23:24 | <Hixie_> | the track being publicly owned makes sense, but the rest, meh, let them compete in the open market |
| 23:25 | <MikeSmith> | (he's working now on implementing media queries - https://github.com/esrille/escudo/commits/master/src/css) |
| 23:25 | <Hixie_> | (not much point have the track be publicly owned if e.g. water and fiber isn't, though. either have public utilities or private ones, why mess around with half-and-half.) |
| 23:25 | <gsnedders> | Hixie_: The big problem in the UK is the absolute lack of competition between the private companies — they have state-given monopolies for a decade at a time. That's what kills the whole thing. |
| 23:26 | <Hixie_> | monopolies are dumb. |
| 23:26 | <gsnedders> | The train operating companies (TOCs). |
| 23:26 | <Hixie_> | state-supported ones, i mean. |
| 23:26 | <gsnedders> | Hence it was better under a state-owned monopoly as there was less interest in profits. |
| 23:26 | <Hixie_> | making competition illegal is just silly. |
| 23:26 | <Hixie_> | yeah. |
| 23:26 | <TabAtkins> | You mean "lucrative". |
| 23:26 | <gsnedders> | It's not. |
| 23:27 | <TabAtkins> | And "a valid patriotic business practice" |
| 23:27 | <gsnedders> | They pay foot-and-leg for the franschies. |
| 23:27 | <Hixie_> | better than paying arm-and-leg, i guess |
| 23:27 | <Hixie_> | since with arm-and-leg pricing, your foot ain't much use anymore anyway |
| 23:27 | <gsnedders> | That's the right expression, dangnamit! |
| 23:28 | <gsnedders> | I think, but am not sure, that the whole passenger stock being owned by separate companies is part of one of the EU railway directives. |
| 23:28 | <gsnedders> | In theory to make it easier for companies to start running services. |
| 23:29 | <gsnedders> | Of course, in the British case, as enacted, they have monopolies so it doesn't make it easier. |
| 23:30 | <Hixie_> | wait, so, Virgin doesn't own the rolling stock that uses their trade mark? |
| 23:30 | <Hixie_> | who owns the rolling stock for freight transport? |
| 23:31 | <gsnedders> | Hixie_: No, they don't. I'm not sure of the exact contracts between the TOCs and the RSOCOs, though. As far as I can tell, each franchise has a dedicated stock allocated to it, that will therefore change from one TOC to another if the franchise changes hand. |
| 23:32 | <Hixie_> | that's absurd |
| 23:32 | <gsnedders> | The franchises vary from, say, West Coast, East Coast, Cross-Country, Midland Mainline, Scotland, South Western… |
| 23:32 | <gsnedders> | The freight rolling stock is mostly owned by the frieght operators. |
| 23:32 | <Hixie_> | so why the difference between freight and passengers? |
| 23:32 | <gsnedders> | Which nowadays is in large part DB Schenker |
| 23:32 | <gsnedders> | (sp?) |
| 23:32 | <Hixie_> | freight's more interesting anyway. |
| 23:33 | <gsnedders> | Honestly, I don't know. |
| 23:33 | <Hixie_> | i really want to get http://www.maerklin.de/produkte/frontend/index.php?artikel_nr=37794&anzeigen_y=1&sCountryCode=en |
| 23:33 | <Hixie_> | which is admittedly a passenger train |
| 23:34 | <gsnedders> | DB Schenker has expanding massively since the liberialization of the European freight market. |
| 23:34 | <gsnedders> | *expanded |
| 23:34 | <Hixie_> | but while it would look cool, it's just not as fun as operating freight |
| 23:34 | <gsnedders> | Heh. I'm somewhat tempted to try and build something along the lines of LGV Est given the space. |
| 23:34 | <Hixie_> | good luck |
| 23:35 | <gsnedders> | (Is your stuff still in Oslo, or finally moved it? :)) |
| 23:35 | <Hixie_> | it's ridiculous how much space you need to do something semi-realistic |
| 23:35 | <Hixie_> | my stuff moved with me when i left |
| 23:35 | <Hixie_> | but it's finally out on a table :-) |
| 23:35 | <gsnedders> | Oh. I had some memory of it being stuck behind somewhere. :) |
| 23:44 | <Hixie_> | bbiab |