| 00:08 | <Hixie> | man, i wish people would trim quotes |
| 02:04 | <zewt> | amused at hitting ^Z while editing a mail in gmail after dropping in an image, and it undoes the "finished loading" part (where it changes from a spinner to the actual image) ... going back to just showing the spinner permanently |
| 06:14 | <jamesr__> | is anyone tracking diffs between the w3c and whatwg dom parsing specs? |
| 06:30 | <Hixie> | yikes, that looks like it had a lot of differences |
| 06:32 | <Hixie> | wow, those are really different |
| 06:38 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: based on a cursory look, the changes seem to fall into two buckets: misguided editorial changes (e.g. the bits about exceptions), and misguided attempts to change the normative requirements (e.g. the changes to the XML serialization of the attributes are dubious at best) |
| 06:38 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: i recommend bitching at ms2ger to finish his work, and using the whatwg version :-) |
| 10:37 | <annevk> | Oh help. The attribute order bugs are popping up again in my inbox. |
| 10:53 | <annevk> | Hixie: you use <dfn title=syntax-elements>elements</dfn> for HTML to describe them |
| 10:53 | <annevk> | Hixie: seems to be the same as what I suggested |
| 11:51 | hsivonen | learns that such a thing as x-sun-unicode-india-0 has existed |
| 11:52 | <hsivonen> | (Devanagari character encoding from Sun) |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | Reminds me of windows-sami-2 |
| 12:08 | <annevk> | http://developer.skolelinux.no/info/samisk/Tn35.pdf |
| 13:26 | <Ms2ger> | jamesr__, I recommend the same thing as Hixie :) |
| 13:29 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: You should look at Travis's tests and reject any that are crazy with spec feedback to the effect that the requirements are bogus |
| 13:30 | <Ms2ger> | Yes, I should |
| 13:31 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Is that "SHOULD", "OUGHT TO", "MUST" or "MUST (BUT WE KNOW YOU WON'T)"? |
| 13:32 | <Ms2ger> | The phrase "OUGHT TO" conveys an optimistic assertion of an |
| 13:32 | <Ms2ger> | implementation behavior that is clearly morally right, and thus does |
| 13:32 | <Ms2ger> | not require substantiation. |
| 13:32 | <Ms2ger> | That sounds about right |
| 14:20 | <annevk> | So per my Twitter feed the a11y community is still debating the alt attribute… Given the number of features <audio> and <video> have, and given that the alt attribute debate is ongoing, will we see accessible video next millennium? |
| 14:32 | <hsivonen> | What's the deal with IETF JSON not allowing astral characters to be escaped? |
| 14:33 | <Ms2ger> | What's the deal with IETF JSON? |
| 14:36 | <annevk> | hsivonen: it does allow that: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis-07#section-7 |
| 14:36 | <annevk> | hsivonen: "To escape an extended character that is not in the Basic Multilingual…" |
| 14:41 | <hsivonen> | annevk: oh ok. somehow, I managed to miss that paragraph when reading the earlier one that seemed to scope escapes to the BMP |
| 14:42 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if anyone has tested UTF-16 and UTF-32 with all the implementations that are claimed as implementations of JSON |
| 15:19 | <SteveF> | annevk: not alt, but use of ARIA attributes in leiu of alt |
| 15:26 | <Domenic_> | Is this the latest CSSStyleDeclaration? http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Style/css.html#CSS-CSSStyleDeclaration |
| 15:26 | <Ms2ger> | No |
| 15:26 | <Ms2ger> | It's in one of the CSSOM specs |
| 15:26 | Domenic_ | shakes fist at MDN |
| 15:27 | <jgraham> | Hmm? |
| 15:27 | <Domenic_> | this looks more like it? http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#the-cssstyledeclaration-interface will update MDN |
| 15:27 | <annevk> | Domenic_: fix MDN |
| 15:27 | <jgraham> | MDN is sweet and fluffy and nice |
| 15:27 | <jgraham> | And when it isn't you should fix it |
| 15:27 | <Domenic_> | oh jeez persona fuck me |
| 15:27 | <Ms2ger> | No thanks |
| 15:32 | <Domenic_> | Hmm still can't figure out where properties like `opacity` live on CSSStyleDeclaration indices and what their property descriptors are. |
| 15:35 | <annevk> | There used to be a long list of properties in CSSOM |
| 15:35 | <annevk> | As an interface that was implemented on top of StyleDeclaration |
| 15:35 | <annevk> | Not sure where it went... |
| 15:36 | <annevk> | Oh, Domenic_, search for "attribute DOMString _camel-cased attribute;" |
| 15:37 | annevk | files https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23925 |
| 15:42 | <Domenic_> | annevk: oh excellent, thanks. |
| 15:51 | <SimonSapin> | Can ignoring character decoding errors (rather than, say, emitting U+FFFD) cause security issues? |
| 16:57 | <Hixie> | annevk_: thinking about it more, i think elements are more similar to ports or host names. the better analogy would be documents vs Documents |
| 16:57 | <Hixie> | annevk_: that is, the text/html stream of bytes, vs the Document object and DOM tree |
| 16:57 | <Hixie> | annevk_: but i agree that the terminology around HTML isn't great |
| 16:58 | <annevk_> | I'm not sure I'd call the former a document |
| 16:58 | <annevk_> | and DOM defines document as Document object, fwiw |
| 16:58 | <Hixie> | annevk_: in URLs, though, there's never been a concept of a parsed URL object before, so nobody has ever used the term that way, so we should avoid making the problem |
| 16:58 | <Hixie> | imho, anyway |
| 16:58 | <Hixie> | your spec, you do as you wish :-) |
| 16:58 | <annevk> | actually, if you ask Roy that's what he says URL has always meant |
| 16:59 | <Hixie> | that's pretty much the strongest argument in my favour :-) |
| 16:59 | <annevk> | hah |
| 17:31 | <Domenic_> | So DOMTimeStamp is just Date? /cc annevk |
| 17:31 | <annevk> | Domenic_: no it's a number |
| 17:31 | Domenic_ | goes and fixes MDN again |
| 17:31 | <annevk> | Domenic_: http://heycam.github.io/webidl/#common-DOMTimeStamp |
| 17:32 | <annevk> | oh wow, bad MDN |
| 17:33 | <Domenic_> | it would be cool if WebIDL had a single number type and then some annotations for clamping or similar. |
| 17:33 | <Domenic_> | also since it's unsigned long long it can't represent times before 1970 |
| 17:35 | <Domenic_> | i wonder who uses DOMTimeStamp as a relative time |
| 17:37 | <annevk> | You could file a bug on IDL |
| 17:37 | <Domenic_> | might be worth starting the discussion. |
| 17:38 | <Domenic_> | trying to understand what WebIDL does with unsigned long long... |
| 17:43 | <Domenic_> | https://github.com/heycam/webidl/issues/2 |
| 17:50 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: pls implement the new script restrictions :-) |
| 20:47 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: The distinction I was making was one can build a conformance checker that does check conformance and does execute (symbolically or not) certain scripts, and it seems silly to disallow that. |
| 20:52 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: who's disallowing it? |
| 20:56 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: Nobody. The point was there's no point to doing so, which seemed to be an implicit suggestion of the email I was replying to. |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: ah |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: ok |
| 21:18 | <Hixie> | in other news, some of the e-mails i get (especially those i get directly, not cc'ed to whatwg) put me in mind of chapters 5 or above of "The Book" in Anathem |
| 21:25 | <Hixie> | heycam|away: ping |
| 21:28 | <Ms2ger> | Good luck |
| 21:30 | <Hixie> | good luck with what? |
| 21:30 | <Hixie> | my book penance? :-) |
| 21:31 | <Hixie> | annevk: yt? |
| 21:32 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: I'd guess the fact pinging heycam never works. :P |
| 21:32 | <Hixie> | annevk: ah, nevermind |
| 21:32 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: works for me quite often, he comes online in my midafternoon :-) |
| 21:34 | <jamesr__> | is anyone closely tracking the w3c vs whatwg dom parsing changes? |
| 21:35 | <Ms2ger> | jamesr__, I'm planning to go through them over the weekend |
| 21:35 | <Ms2ger> | But bug me again then :) |
| 21:35 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: i had some responses for you last night after you asked but after you left :-) |
| 21:36 | <jamesr__> | Hixie: ah sorry |
| 21:36 | <jamesr__> | wait i asked questions last night? |
| 21:36 | jamesr__ | was somewhat heavily medicated at different parts of yesterday |
| 21:36 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 21:37 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20131126#l-132 |
| 21:37 | <jamesr__> | ah thanks |
| 21:37 | <jamesr__> | i just totally forgot that i already asked that |
| 21:37 | <jamesr__> | yeesh |
| 21:38 | <jamesr__> | i wonder if it's worth raising objects on the LCWD thread |
| 21:38 | <jamesr__> | probably not |
| 21:56 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: would be easier to argue if Ms2ger solved the issues properly on the whatwg spec first :-) |
| 21:56 | <Ms2ger> | You don't say |
| 22:04 | <Hixie> | Ms2ger: hey, i'm just glad i'm not the only one with a backlog |
| 22:08 | <Ms2ger> | heycam! |
| 22:08 | <heycam> | hi Ms2ger |
| 22:08 | <heycam> | Hixie, pong |
| 22:09 | <Ms2ger> | There's a PR waiting for you |
| 22:09 | <heycam> | Ms2ger, I saw that, and thanks. but I haven't looked at it closely yet. |
| 22:24 | <karlcow> | marcosc: YUM! "Firefox OS lacks a way to declaratively indicate to the Web browser that the application can run standalone when lunched." — http://w3c-webmob.github.io/installable-webapps/ |
| 22:32 | <Hixie> | heycam: hello |
| 22:32 | <heycam> | Hixie, hi |
| 22:32 | <Hixie> | heycam: i have a number of bugs waiting on input for you. no rush, but was wondering if they were on your radar and/or how to make sure they were on your radar. |
| 22:33 | <Hixie> | from you, rather |
| 22:33 | <heycam> | Hixie, can you tell me which ones? and then I'll look at them soon. |
| 22:34 | <Hixie> | heycam: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23744 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23176 and https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23477 are the ones i have annotated with "heycam" in the status whiteboard |
| 22:34 | <Hixie> | there might be others but if so i haven't annotated then yet |
| 22:34 | <Hixie> | (i only annotated them the second time i get to them after having added a comment asking for feedback) |
| 22:34 | <heycam> | Hixie, ok thanks. sorry for not watching bugmail closely. |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | heycam: oh, no worries at all, like i said there's no rush. just making sure they don't fall on the floor. |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | even if you don't get to them for years, i have plenty to keep me busy :-P |
| 22:35 | <heycam> | heh ok |
| 22:43 | <marcosc> | karlcow? |
| 22:44 | <karlcow> | marcosc: read your sentence until the end |
| 22:44 | <karlcow> | Bon appêtit |
| 22:44 | <marcosc> | oh, lunched! :) |
| 22:44 | <karlcow> | ;) |
| 22:44 | <marcosc> | mmmm... lunch |
| 22:45 | <marcosc> | karlcow: that document is full of typos ... wanna help fix 'em? :) |
| 22:45 | <karlcow> | heh |
| 22:46 | <karlcow> | You want more typos? |
| 22:46 | <marcosc> | if they are in a PR, sure! :D |