| 07:53 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: about the validator XHTML1 schema, I'm wondering if you remember why the xml:space attribute for the style element in the schema |
| 07:53 | <MikeSmith> | https://bitbucket.org/validator/validator/src/7625938e679a27265ae625e57b5ed33c063dfacb/schema/xhtml10/style.rnc?at=default#cl-44 |
| 07:54 | <MikeSmith> | oh wait maybe I see why |
| 07:56 | <MikeSmith> | you added it to some other patterns |
| 07:57 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, I ask above if you remember why you zapped it from style |
| 07:58 | <MikeSmith> | I assume it's probably because you intended that it be included in some other pattern that the style schema inclluded |
| 08:00 | <MikeSmith> | but anyway at this point it doesn't, and the effect is that the validator flags any style element with an xml:space attribute as an error |
| 08:03 | <MikeSmith> | which is especially a problem if you turn the "load external entities" option on, because the XHTML1 DTD makes xml:space #FIXED 'preserve' for style |
| 08:04 | <MikeSmith> | so the XML parser adds it if it's not there already, and then the validator flags it as an error even though it's not even present in the input document (pre-parsing) |
| 08:04 | <MikeSmith> | which from a user perspective is pretty confusing |
| 08:09 | <MikeSmith> | OK yeah I see now that you created an "xml.space.attrib" pattern and added it to the "Core.attrib" pattern |
| 08:11 | <MikeSmith> | the problem is that because the style.attlist pattern doesn't include Core.attrib, that has the effect of xml:space no longer being allowed for the style element |
| 08:14 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: do you know, is Servo still using hubbub for HTML parsing? |
| 08:14 | <Ms2ger> | Yup |
| 08:14 | <Ms2ger> | Want to finish the translation? :) |
| 08:15 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 08:15 | <MikeSmith> | thanks for the kind offer, but no thanks |
| 08:16 | <Ms2ger> | Aww |
| 08:16 | <Ms2ger> | Oh hey, tests for marquee |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | nice |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | who from? |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: btw, <!doctype html><p>Test |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | in servo |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | with no </p> end tag |
| 08:17 | <Ms2ger> | Intel |
| 08:17 | <MikeSmith> | hmm |
| 08:18 | <MikeSmith> | I think Intel may have some people with too much time on their hands then |
| 08:18 | <MikeSmith> | which person at Intel? Not Zhang? |
| 08:19 | <Ms2ger> | xiaojunwu, but I don't know if they wrote or just submitted them |
| 08:19 | <MikeSmith> | so can I assume that <!doctype html><p>Test fails to render as expected because of broken parsing? or some other reason? |
| 08:20 | <Ms2ger> | Looking |
| 08:22 | <Ms2ger> | Looks like we don't do a reflow |
| 08:23 | <MikeSmith> | well |
| 08:23 | <MikeSmith> | that's odd |
| 08:24 | <MikeSmith> | I wouldn't think that should be depending on the presence of the end tag in the input document |
| 08:25 | <Ms2ger> | Or not |
| 08:26 | <MikeSmith> | seems like it must be constructing a different DOM |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | so please add an Inspect Element in Servo so I can inspect the DOM |
| 08:27 | <Ms2ger> | Heh |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | in exchange I'll contribute some marquee tests for Servo |
| 08:27 | <Ms2ger> | DOM looks sane |
| 08:27 | <MikeSmith> | weird |
| 08:28 | <Ms2ger> | Oh no it doesn't |
| 08:28 | <Ms2ger> | There's no Text |
| 08:29 | <MikeSmith> | that would probably do it I guess |
| 08:30 | <Ms2ger> | File an issue? |
| 08:30 | <MikeSmith> | hai |
| 08:30 | <Ms2ger> | Not that I expect it to be fixed before we get the new parser |
| 08:30 | <MikeSmith> | this will be the first non-build-related bug I reported for Servo |
| 08:30 | <Ms2ger> | Which brings us to... :) |
| 08:30 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 08:31 | <MikeSmith> | first I'd need to learn Rust |
| 08:31 | <MikeSmith> | which I think would require me dosing up more than normal |
| 08:32 | <Ms2ger> | It's actually quite nice :) |
| 08:32 | <MikeSmith> | btw by file an issue you mean a bugzilla.mozilla bug? or a gh issue? |
| 08:32 | <Ms2ger> | Github |
| 08:32 | <MikeSmith> | oK |
| 08:33 | <Ms2ger> | Unfortunately |
| 08:35 | <MikeSmith> | yeah well I guess they're going to fully break new ground they might as well use a broken bug-reporting system too |
| 08:35 | <Ms2ger> | Ouch. |
| 08:36 | <MikeSmith> | well I was going to say if they're going to make a toy browser engine they might as well use a toy bug-reporting system |
| 08:36 | <MikeSmith> | but I decided not to say that |
| 08:36 | <MikeSmith> | because that would be really obnoxious |
| 08:39 | <Ms2ger> | Hey, Samsung might actually ship it |
| 08:41 | <MikeSmith> | good maybe they can have somebody finish the parser work |
| 08:41 | <MikeSmith> | it is going to be very cool when it does finally ship |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | it's pretty crazy how far along it is after just a year |
| 08:42 | <Ms2ger> | Could use more people who know about the DOM, fwiw ;) |
| 08:42 | <MikeSmith> | plh! |
| 08:43 | <MikeSmith> | I won't tell him but I'll suggest to him that he learn Rust just for fun |
| 08:43 | <Ms2ger> | Heh |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | yipes Mike West getting a little carried away in the blink "Intent to remove"-fest https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/blink-dev/14q_I06gwg8 |
| 09:02 | <MikeSmith> | "what we currently do with the tag is strange, and doesn't seem to actually support it's usage in the wild. |
| 09:03 | <MikeSmith> | where what they are currently doing with the tag = conforming to what the HTML spec requires them to do with |
| 09:04 | <MikeSmith> | which is admittedly pretty strange |
| 09:04 | <MikeSmith> | but you'd hope engineers would be reading the specs before proposing to yank stuff |
| 09:06 | <MikeSmith> | especially when he's citing the spec in his message |
| 10:11 | Ms2ger | wants a version of http://simon.html5.org/tools/js/unicodeize/ that also gives the names of the characters |
| 10:15 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: fork it :-) |
| 10:15 | <Ms2ger> | Sorry |
| 10:15 | <Ms2ger> | I want someone else to make it :) |
| 10:19 | <zcorpan> | there's http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/cgi/unicode-decoder/character-identifier but i don't know if that helps |
| 10:21 | <zcorpan> | i wonder why https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/437 doesn't show the meta refresh commit |
| 10:21 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, that's neat too |
| 10:22 | <Ms2ger> | Even though it says (this script is currently broken) |
| 10:22 | <Ms2ger> | I'd fix it to match what I need, but it's perl :/ |
| 10:22 | Ms2ger | specs PI serialization instead |
| 10:26 | Ms2ger | notices that Travis didn't serialize the target |
| 10:38 | <Ms2ger> | So, a PI with an empty data |
| 10:38 | <Ms2ger> | "<?a ?>" or "<?a?>"? |
| 10:39 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Better? |
| 10:39 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: yep, thanks |
| 10:39 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: in xml? |
| 10:40 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 10:41 | <jgraham> | 08:32 < Ms2ger> It's actually quite nice :) |
| 10:41 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: One word: AbstractNode |
| 10:42 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, we're busy removing that ;) |
| 10:42 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: what does ie do? |
| 10:43 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Sure, but the fact that it ever happened :) |
| 10:44 | <jgraham> | (I like Rust btw, but the inability to model the DOM without craziness is rather unfortunate) |
| 10:44 | <Ms2ger> | IE and Chrome have the space, Gecko doesn't have one |
| 10:46 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: then include the space :-) |
| 10:46 | <zcorpan> | http://www.browserstack.com/screenshots/b7d6431d229dc231b4dbd4948514028a882dfed6 :-| |
| 10:47 | <Ms2ger> | How about in HTML? |
| 10:48 | <Ms2ger> | Chrome and IE throw when you create a PI, Gecko serializes without a space |
| 10:48 | Ms2ger | tries something else |
| 10:49 | <zcorpan> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-end.html#html-fragment-serialization-algorithm defines that already, with space |
| 10:55 | <zcorpan> | if i understand the spec correctly then <embed type=image/svg+xml> should create a browsing context that is able to load basically anything into it |
| 10:59 | <annevk> | zcorpan: no, because that's not a plugin that the browser supports |
| 11:01 | <zcorpan> | annevk: hmm. in that case the resource has to have image/svg+xml content-type to create the browsing context. and then you can navigate to anything |
| 11:01 | <annevk> | zcorpan: yeah |
| 11:02 | <Ms2ger> | Hmm, HTML is interesting |
| 11:02 | <Ms2ger> | The HTML spec and Gecko do <?a >, IE and Chrome do <?a ?> |
| 11:03 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan, so what do you think about that? :) |
| 11:04 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: i think the spec is right |
| 11:05 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: html ends the bogus comment on the first > and in sgml PIs end with > |
| 11:06 | <Ms2ger> | It's been a while since I heard SGML used as an argument here :) |
| 11:06 | <annevk> | Is this for serializing a processing instruction? |
| 11:07 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 11:07 | <annevk> | Just do the same as in XML? |
| 11:07 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan disagrees :) |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | Either that or serialize as a plain comment |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | <!--target contents--> |
| 11:08 | Ms2ger | steps back to let the people who care fight it out |
| 11:08 | <zcorpan> | annevk: why? |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | zcorpan: same path as XML is simpler and more predictable, HTML comments generates less errors on a reparse |
| 11:17 | Ms2ger | will post to the list later |
| 11:25 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: Maybe I added xml:space to all elements and had to remove it from <style> to avoid the double attribute error from Jing |
| 11:27 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: as far as I can see in the current schema it's not been added to all elements. Because you added it to Common.attrib but <style> doesn't use Common.attrib |
| 11:30 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: OK. I have no idea what I was thinking, then |
| 11:35 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: Maybe you were thinking that the schema you started from was probably consistent and logical :) |
| 11:36 | <Ms2ger> | Ehehehe |
| 11:37 | <MikeSmith> | can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear |
| 11:37 | <MikeSmith> | since the specs the schema is modeling aren't consistent and logical |
| 11:38 | <Ms2ger> | That's an interesting expression |
| 11:38 | <hsivonen> | yeah, I don't think the schema writers are to blame in this case |
| 11:38 | <annevk> | Why do we want to allow xml:space though? |
| 11:38 | <annevk> | Seems like a bug |
| 11:38 | <hsivonen> | (and I don't mean myself but the earlier authors) |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | And why would <style> not have Common.attrib? |
| 11:39 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I may have been thinking that xml:space should be allowed throughout as part of the XML layer |
| 11:40 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I made the changeset MikeSmith is referring to back when I still tried to support xml:id, too |
| 11:40 | <annevk> | xml:id :-) |
| 11:41 | <hsivonen> | annevk: well, you believed in xml:id once, too |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | Oh yeah, was just laughing because I forgot about it |
| 11:43 | Ms2ger | goes off for lunch |
| 11:44 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: https://github.com/whatwg/domparsing/pull/1 |
| 11:44 | <Ms2ger> | Huh |
| 11:44 | <Ms2ger> | I missed that |
| 11:45 | <Ms2ger> | Will merge it after lunch |
| 11:48 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: the reason for the schema not allowing Common.attrib for style is that that the XHTML1 spec doesn't allow style to have certain global attributes. Which makes sense because HTML4 didn't allow them for style either, and XHTML1 was supposedly just a reformulation of HTML4 in XML |
| 11:49 | <MikeSmith> | but then I notice that the XHTML1 spec allows style to have the id attribute, despite the fact that HTML4 didn't |
| 11:51 | <annevk> | Why do we still validate HTML4? |
| 11:51 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: and this is all just about XHTML1/HTML4 checking in the validator, so the reason to allow xml:space is because the XHTML1 spec allows it |
| 11:51 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: so I can retire the legacy W3C validator for once and all |
| 11:51 | <annevk> | Can't we retire both? |
| 11:52 | <annevk> | And wow, didn't know that was still around |
| 11:52 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, despite me doing my best to kill it |
| 11:53 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, the requirement I've been given is that I need to continue to provide support for checking HTML4 and XHTML1 documents |
| 11:54 | <borior> | annevk: hey there, I've been pointed in your direction after moaning a lot about the absence of a vendor-agnostic browser extension API and/or packaging format |
| 11:54 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: dude, you sound like Steven Pemberton now :p |
| 11:54 | <annevk> | "Our charter told us to build XHTML 2.0, so we did." |
| 11:55 | <borior> | I've been reading about the webapps wg. Where's the best place to get an overview of the current state of affairs and intended directions? |
| 11:55 | <annevk> | borior: I'm not sure anyone is working on standardized packaging at the moment, maybe the SysApps WG? |
| 11:56 | <annevk> | borior: I'm not a big fan of packaged apps: http://the-pastry-box-project.net/anne-van-kesteren/2013-december-2/ |
| 11:56 | <borior> | right, neither am I |
| 11:57 | <annevk> | borior: as for extensions, that might make sense, but given that we have enough trouble as it is to agree on public APIs, standardizing internal APIs seems tough |
| 11:57 | <borior> | the use case I'm interested in at the moment is annotation |
| 11:57 | <borior> | which in technical terms, for me, means I'd like to authorise some code to run in an isolated execution context on every page i visit, with access to the DOM |
| 11:58 | <borior> | this doesn't require packaging, per se, but it would require some mechanism to install that intent (and code) into my UA |
| 11:58 | <borior> | which seems partially to be the intent of the mozApps stuff |
| 11:59 | <borior> | but hey, that's vendor-specific again, and it makes me sad :( |
| 11:59 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: I forgot to mention that I'll also be adding XForms support. When I'm done with that I plan to also include modularization and then, decentralized extensibility |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: sounds like you'll be hitting your bonus targets |
| 12:00 | <annevk> | borior: yeah, I don't think we're even close on getting to some standardized solution for problems like that |
| 12:01 | <borior> | annevk: is is something worth raising in the webapps wg lists? or are you focused on features for specific (i.e. "has-a-url") pages? |
| 12:01 | <borior> | *it |
| 12:02 | <annevk> | borior: doesn't hurt to ask I suppose, but I don't know anyone trying to tackle that |
| 12:02 | <borior> | okay, that's really helpful, anyway |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | Domenic_: do we have a way yet to see how many tests a browser passes of the promises test suite? |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | Domenic_: even if not run through the Ecma test suite? |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | Domenic_: would be nice to see how much Gecko passes before we enable it by default in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=918806 |
| 13:33 | <zcorpan> | anyone know why <embed name> is obsolete? |
| 13:33 | <zcorpan> | just don't want to embrace the browsing context aspect of it? |
| 14:00 | <annevk> | Okay, what's the context for the ice cream memes? |
| 14:00 | <annevk> | I'm not finding it on public-restrictedmedia :/ |
| 14:01 | <zcorpan> | annevk: follow the link in the post |
| 14:04 | <annevk> | zcorpan: ta |
| 14:05 | <annevk> | zcorpan: I'm having a hard time following that |
| 14:25 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: the spec status annotation thing could have some more context in the password email so that it's easier to find |
| 14:25 | <darobin> | I really likes that ice cream analogy |
| 14:25 | <SimonSapin> | annevk: All URLs (including with non-relative scheme) have a fragment, but not a query? |
| 14:25 | <SimonSapin> | http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ says "An absolute URL must be a scheme, followed by ":", followed by scheme data, optionally followed by "?" and a query." |
| 14:25 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: URLs have a query |
| 14:26 | <SimonSapin> | data:text/html,Test?query#fragment shows ?query as part of the content |
| 14:26 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: like including terms like "whatwg", "html standard", "Specification annotation system" |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: sure |
| 14:27 | <jgraham> | darobin: For the content, or for the fact that it mentions ice cream |
| 14:27 | <jgraham> | ? |
| 14:27 | <darobin> | jgraham: yes |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | SimonSapin: content being scheme data, ?, query |
| 14:27 | <jgraham> | darobin: s/or/xor/ |
| 14:27 | <SimonSapin> | hum, ok |
| 14:27 | <darobin> | s/yes/quantum superposition/ |
| 14:28 | <Ms2ger> | s/darobin/cat/ |
| 14:28 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: that's already a given :) |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | I thought it was dahut |
| 14:28 | <jgraham> | I couldn't really understand the content |
| 14:28 | Ms2ger | puts darobin in an unobservable box |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | But ice cream! |
| 14:28 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: I thought the box was observable |
| 14:28 | <jgraham> | I don't know who are supposed to be the equivalent of ice-cream vendors in this situation |
| 14:28 | <darobin> | annevk: no I *hunt* dahuts |
| 14:29 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: please include ice cream |
| 14:29 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, I was wondering who was going to be pedantic about it :) |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | darobin: must be some big ass cat |
| 14:29 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, there will be a superposition of ice cream and no ice cream, that's the best I can do |
| 14:29 | <darobin> | annevk: hey! I may have put on some weight, but I think "big ass" is stretching it |
| 14:29 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: I reckon that's superposably delicious |
| 14:30 | <jgraham> | (I also think that argument-by-analogy is very silly) |
| 14:30 | <jgraham> | (and generally leads to bad results) |
| 14:31 | <annevk> | Yeah, much better to argue through authority |
| 14:31 | <darobin> | jgraham: this is TimBL, you have to think hypertextually |
| 14:31 | <Ms2ger> | Well, if annevk says so... |
| 14:31 | <annevk> | I'm on the TAG, now shut up |
| 14:32 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Do you have any opinion on what should be an attribute and what should be a method in Python? |
| 14:32 | <daleharvey> | So, anyone know who I should ask about crazy behaviour with websql on safari? |
| 14:32 | <darobin> | his point is linked to the part where he talks about only having Apple content on iOS, only having Sony content on Sony devices, etc. |
| 14:32 | <daleharvey> | I mean crazier than usual behaviour, obviously |
| 14:32 | <Ms2ger> | daleharvey, why are you using websql? |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | daleharvey: maybe ask in #webkit? WebSQL isn't really part of the web |
| 14:32 | <darobin> | same with ice cream with limited distribution if the fridges are all controlled by a given company |
| 14:32 | <daleharvey> | backwards compat :( |
| 14:33 | <jgraham> | darobin: That doesn't seem like a problem at the moment, and doesn't seem like it will become a problem in any scenario where EME could make a difference |
| 14:33 | <darobin> | I'm not sure I agree (the argument seems to rely on indie film makers really wanting DRM, I'm not sure that's the case), but within those parameters it has merit |
| 14:33 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Are you actually asking about usedEncoding? |
| 14:33 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: Yes. |
| 14:33 | <daleharvey> | annevk: cool cheers |
| 14:33 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: I think parser.encoding could be fine |
| 14:33 | <darobin> | jgraham: yeah, I'm not saying that it reaches the heart of the problem, just that it makes sense as a problem *if* it is a problem |
| 14:35 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: (that is, perhaps, a bit misleading; one could argue that it should be documentEncoding or something. But shortness seems desirable) |
| 14:36 | <SimonSapin> | jgraham: there is naming, and there is property vs. method |
| 14:37 | <SimonSapin> | Properties look like attributes, which are cheap to access. So properties that are expensive (in run time) to access are bad, but this is not the case here. |
| 14:37 | <jgraham> | SimonSapin: I don't see ehy it would be a method in this case |
| 14:37 | <SimonSapin> | ok |
| 14:37 | <jgraham> | It just reflect a lower-level attribute |
| 14:39 | <SimonSapin> | for naming, I wanted it to show that it may be different from the given encoding parameter (eg. if there is a BOM) |
| 14:39 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: if you don't like the WebKit/Blink hack for x-user-defined in <meta>, do you prefer my other option at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=213517#c13 ? |
| 14:40 | <gsnedders> | SimonSapin: See my recent bug on needing to split the encoding argument up |
| 14:40 | <SimonSapin> | yes |
| 14:40 | <SimonSapin> | it’s related |
| 14:41 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: +1 for WebKit/Blink behaviour |
| 14:43 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I share SimonSapin's concern about ambiguity given encoding parameter |
| 14:43 | <jgraham> | shrug |
| 14:43 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: can you elaborate on why you prefer the WebKit/Blink behavior? |
| 14:44 | <jgraham> | If you think it's a big deal, use documentEncoding or something |
| 14:45 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: i think i prefer special-casing XHR in terms of being less insane, but i don't care strongly either way, and i don't have an opinion about the font/UI issue |
| 14:47 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I think the font/UI issue is the deciding factor |
| 14:47 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: though I dislike the craziness of HTTP-level x-user-defined in the WebKit/Blink case |
| 14:48 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: so for the record let's consider #3 remove mystery UI, make x-user-defined alias of windows-1252 everywhere except XHR and in XHR it maps to the x-user-defined encoding |
| 14:48 | <SimonSapin> | gsnedders: I have http://pythonhosted.org/webencodings/ that implements http://encoding.spec.whatwg.org/ , if that helps |
| 14:48 | <gsnedders> | SimonSapin: Change it to be an attribute (possibly just a getter?) and probably go for documentEncoding? Either that or follow CSS WG habit and call it "bikeshed"? :) |
| 14:49 | <gsnedders> | SimonSapin: Can you file a bug somewhere along those lines? |
| 14:55 | <SimonSapin> | gsnedders: done and done |
| 14:57 | <gsnedders> | SimonSapin: I've filed a bug on webencodings, btw |
| 15:00 | <SimonSapin> | gsnedders: when is getstate/setstate it useful? |
| 15:11 | hsivonen | sees TimBL's DRM reply on www-tag |
| 15:11 | <hsivonen> | whoa |
| 15:17 | <gsnedders> | SimonSapin: I've used it in implementation of a decoder than can change the currently used decoder while decoding. |
| 15:18 | <gsnedders> | SimonSapin: For the sake of changing when you have a meta beyond the pre-scan and need to change the encoding of the input stream. |
| 15:20 | <Domenic_> | annevk: I think I have time to work on that tonight, should be relatively straightforward. |
| 15:44 | <darobin> | Domenic_: if I were a friend I'd tell you to run away fast; but since I don't really know you that well: best of luck in the elections :) |
| 15:46 | <jgraham> | darobin: misanthrope |
| 15:47 | <darobin> | jgraham: hey, I've been there, I'm allowed to relish the pain of others who stumble down the same path |
| 15:47 | <darobin> | though to be honest, the TAG just ain't what it used to be :) |
| 16:49 | <JonathanNeal> | Hello! |
| 16:50 | <Domenic_> | darobin: thanks/haha :). where was the announcement? Haven't seen it yet. |
| 16:51 | <darobin> | Domenic_: it's coming out soon |
| 16:53 | <Domenic_> | should probably fire up ye old blog engine then... |
| 17:13 | <darobin> | Domenic_: yeah, get the blog warmed up, and ping the band manager when you have something! |
| 17:13 | <Domenic_> | installing ruby on work computer.... @_____@ why is everything so hard |
| 17:26 | jgraham | wonders what you call a group of managers |
| 17:26 | <Ms2ger> | A herd? |
| 17:26 | <Ms2ger> | A meeting? |
| 17:27 | <jgraham> | I was thinking "Committee" |
| 17:27 | <jgraham> | I had an object called a ManagerPool |
| 17:27 | <jgraham> | But it isn't really a pool |
| 17:27 | <Ms2ger> | ManagerMeeting? Sounds good to me :) |
| 17:57 | <annevk> | Domenic_: sweet |
| 19:14 | <Hixie> | smaug____: pong |
| 19:14 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, wdyt about PI serialization in HTML, btw? |
| 19:17 | <smaug____> | Hixie: the question was about http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=freenode%23whatwg&s=1%20Dec%202013&e=1%20Dec%202013#c842854 |
| 19:22 | <Hixie> | Ms2ger: do PIs still exist? |
| 19:22 | <Hixie> | smaug____: looking... |
| 19:22 | <Hixie> | smaug____: it's defined in various places |
| 19:22 | <Hixie> | smaug____: usually when a Document is created |
| 19:23 | <Hixie> | smaug____: though i think there's at least one case (document.open, iirc) where the assignment changes on the fly |
| 19:23 | <smaug____> | especially "the Window object with which document is currently associated." |
| 19:23 | <smaug____> | I couldn't find where it is defined |
| 19:23 | <smaug____> | but perhaps I was searching for wrong key words |
| 19:23 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, sure |
| 19:24 | <Hixie> | smaug____: "Create a new Window object, and associate it with the Document" at #create-a-document-object is the main place |
| 19:25 | <Hixie> | smaug____: looks like the about:blank document never gets explicitly associated, let me file a bug to fix that |
| 19:25 | <smaug____> | And data documents aren't associated either, right? |
| 19:25 | <smaug____> | which is why I started to wonder http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=freenode%23whatwg&s=1%20Dec%202013&e=1%20Dec%202013#c842849 |
| 19:25 | <Hixie> | smaug____: and document.open() says "Replace the Document's singleton objects with new instances of those objects. (This includes in particular the Window [...]" |
| 19:26 | <Hixie> | smaug____: some documents don't have an associated window, right |
| 19:26 | <Hixie> | smaug____: an interesting question |
| 19:27 | <Hixie> | smaug____: looks like "get the current value of the event handler" doesn't check for that case, oops |
| 19:28 | <smaug____> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#getting-the-current-value-of-the-event-handler would have a null pointer error, effectively |
| 19:28 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 19:28 | <Hixie> | ok, i filed a bug on that too |
| 19:28 | <Hixie> | https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23957 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23956 |
| 19:29 | <smaug____> | I wonder what behavior we want for the latter one |
| 19:30 | smaug____ | should test non-Gecko browsers |
| 20:09 | <aleray> | Hi, in html5lib python, how to choose between etree, lxml and dom for treewalker? |
| 20:21 | <TabAtkins> | aleray: Just look at the libraries and figure out which one has the things you want? |
| 20:22 | <TabAtkins> | I use the lxml treewalker. It's not a good API at all (I've had to write several DOM compat shims for missing functions), but it's compatible with CSSSelect, another library that converts CSS Selectors into XPath for me. |
| 20:30 | <aleray> | TabAtkins, thanks |
| 20:56 | <Domenic_> | Man that @w3ctag twitter account is having a hard time. |
| 20:58 | <TabAtkins> | Domenic_: What's wrong? |
| 20:58 | <Domenic_> | First it got the wrong date, then the wrong link |
| 20:58 | <TabAtkins> | Ah. |
| 22:00 | <Hixie> | so does anyone have an opinion on cite=""? |
| 22:00 | <Hixie> | the obvious answer is "let's drop it, nobody uses it" |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | but that seems a bit sad |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | even the spec uses them |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | (by "nobody uses it" i meant no UAs make use of it) |
| 22:02 | <Hixie> | https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22907 |
| 22:06 | <tantek> | Hixie - I've been leaning more and more negative on cite="" (presuming you mean on q and blockquote) |
| 22:06 | <tantek> | cite="" feels very longdescy |
| 22:07 | <tantek> | attributes to URLs which don't cause any noticeable effect in the browser tend to either rot or become polluted with noise. |
| 22:07 | <tantek> | it's an invisible metadata problem |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | its main difference with longdesc="" is that since there's been no advocacy for it, the data isn't unusually bad |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | but yeah |
| 22:08 | <tantek> | Hixie, and I've *tried* to use it too (and often still do) but often wonder what's the point. |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | ditto |
| 22:08 | <tantek> | It's like, oh maybe I'll make use of this in some script or JS thing eventually... |
| 22:08 | <Hixie> | there's been a note in the spec for many years suggesting adding a <credit> element for <figure>, which could take a similar role if used with a <a> in <q>/<blockquote> |
| 22:08 | <tantek> | but that never seems to happen :( |
| 22:09 | <Hixie> | that would make it less hidden-metadatay |
| 22:09 | <tantek> | nah, since it's a URL it should be something that works with <a href> |
| 22:09 | <tantek> | an already visible URL building block |
| 22:09 | <Hixie> | right that's what i mean |
| 22:10 | <tantek> | I mean not a new element |
| 22:10 | <tantek> | maybe someway to tie the q/blockquote with the <a href> to the source. |
| 22:10 | <Hixie> | something like <blockquote> ... <credit> Quoted from <a href="...">foo bar</a>, copyright 2004. </credit> </blockquote> |
| 22:10 | <tantek> | similar to <label for> maybe |
| 22:10 | <tantek> | oh just by nesting? perhaps |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | a lot of people really want some sort of nesting for blockquote |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | (not sure why <figure> isn't enough, but that's another issue -- and credit/a-href could work there too) |
| 22:11 | <tantek> | I really don't know what that means "want some sort of nesting for blockquote" |
| 22:11 | <tantek> | I've tried using <figure> and it's been awkward enough that I gave up. |
| 22:11 | <tantek> | I can try again I suppose. |
| 22:12 | <Hixie> | what's awkward about it? |
| 22:12 | <Hixie> | by "some sort of nesting" i mean people want the <blockquote> to contain the citation as well somehow |
| 22:12 | <tantek> | the markup just didn't seem to fit into how I was authoring the images / text |
| 22:12 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 22:12 | <Hixie> | would be interesting to study that |
| 22:12 | <tantek> | yeah |
| 22:12 | <tantek> | I should gather some more detailed data/feedback |
| 22:13 | <Hixie> | <figure> was designed to just take the place of the <div> people were using anyway |
| 22:13 | <tantek> | but wanted to at least share that rough impression |
| 22:13 | <tantek> | as (un)helpful as that is |
| 22:13 | <tantek> | typically these are all example I run across when writing blog posts |
| 22:13 | tantek | is still sad Hixie has switched to blogging on G+ rather than ln.hixie.ch |
| 22:14 | <Hixie> | g+ gave me per-post acls, which i've wanted for years |
| 22:15 | <Hixie> | g+ sucks when you want inline links or diagrams though |
| 22:16 | <tantek> | Hixie - maybe only post on G+ when you need an ACL then, and otherwise post your "public" posts on ln.hixie.ch? |
| 22:16 | <mrbkap> | dglazkov: ping? |
| 22:17 | <tantek> | Hixie - you could always add G+ sign-in to ln.hixie.ch to show ACL'd posts there ;) |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | tantek: g+ also gives me other things, like comments, spam filtering on comments, etc |
| 22:17 | <tantek> | Hixie, I'll get back to you once we've solved the blog comment spam problem :) |
| 22:19 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 22:20 | <Hixie> | good luck with that |
| 22:21 | <Hixie> | (i'm also pretty sure far more people read my stuff now than did on my blog) |
| 22:23 | <tantek> | yeah that may be a harder problem than the spam problem (reach/distribution) |
| 22:35 | <Hixie> | there's dozens and dozens of features that people have asked for in HTML that, before I can progress on them, I need to figure out whether anyone cares about |
| 22:58 | <tantek> | Hixie - you mean you're not able to pre-occupy them by asking them to research and document existing publishing practices that demonstrate the need? ;) |
| 22:59 | <tantek> | (existing publishing practices on *others* websites - helps demonstrate that some *other* people *might* care about it) |
| 22:59 | <tantek> | as opposed to every armchair tag proposer |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | tantek: i'm not able to determine if there's people who want the feature or not, because they aren't aware of the bug and therefore haven't commented on it in the first place |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | tantek: i'm oddly in the opposite problem than the one we usually find ourselves in -- not enough people saying they want something :-) |
| 23:11 | <tantek> | Hixie - that's a fine situation to just let time accrue interest if there is any. Such things can be left in limbo until there's demand. |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | tantek: my problem is that i don't know if there's demand, because i don't know where the people who want these features are saying so |
| 23:14 | <tantek> | Hixie - sure - hopefully if such people exist they are searching for such a feature, and if you've documented the ideas/thoughts on the feature so far somewhere search discoverable, hopefully they'll find it. |
| 23:14 | <tantek> | praise be upon web search to see all, know all, find all, solve all. ;) |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | tantek: i don't think bugzilla is searchable from google |
| 23:15 | <tantek> | well then that would be a problem |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | tantek: also, it's also possible that the people who want this feature are finding it in some other inferior solution |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | tantek: e.g. suppose someone wanted something from microformats, but found rdfa could do it in a pinch, and so stopped looking for how to do it in microfarmats |
| 23:18 | <tantek> | Hixie - that would be fine - if there really was sufficient such interest in such a "something" then eventually we'd see publishing patterns emerge of that kind of RDFa which we could use as data to develop a cleaner/simpler way to do it with microformats, document a transition, and go. |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | would be nice to hear about it earlier on though |
| 23:19 | <tantek> | it's ok, we can accept the web as highly organically evolving and somewhat inefficient |
| 23:19 | <tantek> | the really important stuff will bubble up to the top |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | i would like it to be more efficient :-) |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | or at least, i'd like to know which of these many features are stuff nobody cares about, and which are things that lots of people are bitching about but i haven't heard enough complaints to know |
| 23:19 | <tantek> | me too. hence I ask people to post things places where Google and other search engines will pick them up, index them, and make them easily findable. |
| 23:20 | <tantek> | in my experience, amount of bitching does not actually related to utility / usefulness |
| 23:21 | <tantek> | and the good thing is, we can encourage people to "bitch" (I prefer brainstorm ;) ) on their on blogs |
| 23:21 | <tantek> | *own blogs |