| 00:40 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: did you ever reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-whatwg-archive/2013Oct/0013.html by any chance? |
| 00:44 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: s/textArea/textContent/ |
| 01:12 | <jamesr__> | Hixie: i did not. in order to reply i'd have to figure out whether there are any observable differences between my proposed text and the spin the event loop algorithm |
| 01:13 | <jamesr__> | mentally it's a lot easier for me to map the steps of "spin the event loop" on to the actual C++ act of putting an object on the stack that spins the event loop, but that's not how the text really works |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: context? |
| 01:13 | <TabAtkins> | The most recent email you sent, about <output> |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | ah, my bad |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | oh well |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | hopefully he figures out what i mean |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: k |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: not really sure how it differs, but ok |
| 01:13 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: :-) |
| 01:14 | <jamesr__> | Hixie: if it doesn't, then i'd suggest replacing it with my text just for the purpose of removing invociations of that step |
| 01:14 | <jamesr__> | since that step makes the spec incredibly hard to reason about |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: i don't understand your text :-) |
| 01:14 | <jamesr__> | ok. well i don't think i fully understand the currently spec algorithm |
| 01:14 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: as far as i can tell, it's the same as what the spec says, but using non-spec terms :-) |
| 01:15 | <jamesr__> | window.showModalDialog() does something that i can map to the C++ callstack |
| 01:15 | <jamesr__> | and as an implementor that's relatively easy to reason about |
| 01:15 | <jamesr__> | this parsing step does not map to reentrancy in the C++ callstack |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: "spin the event loop" right now means "suspend the current algorithm, end the task, and, later, queue up a new task that resumes the current algorithm" |
| 01:15 | <jamesr__> | so it's a lot harder at least for me to reason about what it really does |
| 01:15 | <jamesr__> | yeah but there are consequences about what's higher up on the stack |
| 01:16 | <jamesr__> | or equivalently what the consequences of "suspend the current algorithm" are |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | what are the consequences? |
| 01:16 | <jamesr__> | i don't believe any major browser today supports continuations for javascript, so "suspend the current algorithm" if the algorithm has javascript on the stack means run a bunch of code on top of that callstack |
| 01:16 | <jamesr__> | instead of returning to the underlying native event loop |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | i thought you were proposing that instead of spinning the event loop, we suspend the current algorithm, end the task, and later, queue up a new task that resumes the same algorithm. which seems to me identical. |
| 01:18 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: your e-mail didn't suggest a change to showModalDialog() as far as i can tell |
| 01:23 | <jamesr__> | no |
| 01:23 | <jamesr__> | that was an example |
| 01:23 | <jamesr__> | the parser case doesn't have the issues that showModalDialog() has of JS higher up the stack |
| 01:23 | <jamesr__> | but it's not obvious from reading the parser text that those issues are not a problem here |
| 02:16 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: k. i don't understand the exact issue then. |
| 02:16 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: please respond in due course so i can study your answer and fix the spec if necessary :-) |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | jamesr__: (or ping me sometime around 11 and we can chat over lunch or whatever) |
| 04:05 | <Domenic_> | annevk: Firefox promises in Aurora are not doing so hot, 84/879 tests pass. http://domenic.me/aplus-tests-against-the-browser/ |
| 06:12 | <rniwa> | annevk: yt? |
| 07:47 | <MikeSmith> | Domenic_: seems like those are not doing so great in Chromium either -- 94 passes, 778 failures |
| 07:48 | <MikeSmith> | unless there's some flag I should have set but don7t |
| 07:49 | <MikeSmith> | hmm I get different results when I re-run it |
| 07:50 | <MikeSmith> | in Chromium, 223 passes, 649 failuress |
| 07:50 | <MikeSmith> | with duration: 8.27s |
| 07:51 | <MikeSmith> | takes way longer for the tests to execute in Firefox Nightly |
| 07:51 | <MikeSmith> | duration: 129.66s |
| 07:51 | <MikeSmith> | passes: 237 |
| 07:52 | <MikeSmith> | failures: 620 |
| 07:52 | <MikeSmith> | but only runs 98% of the tests |
| 09:02 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, can I use commit --amend with critic? |
| 09:10 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: I notice that critic seems to send some messages without an address in the From header (only a GH username). Seems like it would be nicer if it always put some address for From , even if it's just some dummy default |
| 09:10 | <reggna> | Ms2ger: You can, if you prepare critic for a rebase, and critic will create a "merge commit". |
| 09:10 | <reggna> | Ms2ger: But it's probably easier to just commit a fixup and do the rebase later. |
| 09:12 | <MikeSmith> | also wonder why it sends messages base64-encoded (not that it bothers me -- just curious) |
| 09:47 | <zcorpan> | hmm. test(func, title, {help:foo}) should be able to take an array of urls |
| 09:48 | <zcorpan> | darobin: did you invent {help:foo} in testharness.js? is it being used? does something break if i use an array? |
| 09:48 | <darobin> | zcorpan: that doesn't look like something I'd have invented |
| 09:48 | <darobin> | is this the metadata you can add? |
| 09:49 | <darobin> | that's plinss |
| 09:49 | <zcorpan> | oh, ok |
| 09:49 | <darobin> | I am not sure what uses the data |
| 09:49 | <darobin> | I would say try using an array and if someone complains you'll have your answer :) |
| 09:49 | <zcorpan> | i'll just use an array and update the documentation saying that it takes a string or an array of strings |
| 09:50 | <darobin> | yeah that works too |
| 09:51 | Ms2ger | dislikes that argument |
| 10:03 | <hsivonen> | interesting that Greece and Japan appeared to have opted not to get a Punycode TLD |
| 10:11 | <odinho> | zcorpan: You even want multiple help urls on a single test? :| |
| 10:11 | <odinho> | Crazy :D |
| 10:17 | <hsivonen> | annevk: so the gbk decoder checks the gb18030 flag only in one step. What's hard about determining if that step could always run as if the gb18030 flag was set (unifying the two encodings)? |
| 10:54 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: No |
| 10:54 | <Ms2ger> | So it seems |
| 10:56 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: It's effectively an in-place rebase |
| 10:56 | <jgraham> | Which it *does* support, but you have to tell it that you are going to do one in advance |
| 10:56 | <jgraham> | (in the normal setup) |
| 10:57 | <annevk> | hsivonen: the open bugs suggest there might be more differences :/ |
| 10:57 | <annevk> | rniwa: now... |
| 10:57 | <jgraham> | In the GH setup it would have to infer this from the GH API provided data |
| 10:57 | <annevk> | Domenic_: that's great, thanks! |
| 10:57 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, I think I did tell it |
| 10:58 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: I think you probably didn't, because the prepare rebase button, which is normally what you use here, doesn't work when you are tracking a branch, AIUI |
| 10:58 | <jgraham> | (which you always are in the GH setup) |
| 10:59 | <jgraham> | That button just shouldn't be visible in this case |
| 10:59 | <Ms2ger> | Fun |
| 10:59 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Yeah. I really have to put some more work in to critic |
| 11:00 | <jgraham> | But there is a rumor that I might get internet at home soon |
| 11:00 | <Ms2ger> | Well, I learned something today :) |
| 11:00 | <jgraham> | So then it is actually plausible that I will |
| 11:01 | <Ms2ger> | Does that mean you spend a lot of time in the office instead? |
| 11:02 | <jgraham> | It means I spend a lot of time wishing I had a proper internet connection, and some more time wishing that we weren't also in a cell phone dead spot where 2 bars of signal is the maximum we have observed |
| 11:03 | <Ms2ger> | I see |
| 11:37 | <zcorpan> | odinho: sure. it's not uncommon to test multiple things together |
| 12:17 | <odinho> | zcorpan: Yeah, -- I had several help urls back when we used <meta> and one test per file. That's how the real world (tm) is. |
| 13:21 | <jgraham> | In the real world no one actually writes all that metadat |
| 13:21 | <jgraham> | a |
| 14:16 | <annevk> | hsivonen: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23971 |
| 14:28 | <darobin> | annevk: has there been any further discussion about the idea of having a sort of web platform conference thingie? |
| 14:29 | <Ms2ger> | Don't think so |
| 14:29 | <darobin> | I ask because I could get some logistical support from W3C to organise something |
| 14:29 | <darobin> | with a very open ended mission in terms of how it's run, etc. |
| 14:30 | <smaug____> | could we kill xslt, pretty please |
| 14:30 | <darobin> | smaug____: try v3, it adds something like JSON support :) |
| 14:31 | <smaug____> | seriously? |
| 14:32 | <Ms2ger> | smaug____, then you could remove peterv's only remaining contribution ;) |
| 14:32 | <odinho> | jgraham: lol, true. |
| 14:33 | <smaug____> | Ms2ger: I would count webidl bindings reasonable major contribution |
| 14:33 | <darobin> | smaug____: http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt-30/#json with love |
| 14:35 | <darobin> | the example almost makes me like Handlebars |
| 14:44 | <annevk> | darobin: so yeah, all I got is it has to be about social interaction, barcamp, loosely organized, for framework authors, complex apps, browser developers, and standards peeps |
| 14:45 | <darobin> | that sounds pretty much like what I wrote down :) |
| 14:45 | <annevk> | darobin: with focus on getting to know each other, talking through problems and annoyances |
| 14:45 | <annevk> | cool |
| 14:51 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, *I* never wrote such a library :) |
| 14:51 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: not even in Python? |
| 14:52 | <Ms2ger> | I doubt it |
| 14:53 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: so... you use the DOM? :) |
| 14:54 | jgraham | wonders what kind of library Ms2ger never wrote |
| 14:54 | <jgraham> | I feel like I am missing something obvious here |
| 14:55 | <Ms2ger> | darobin, right |
| 14:55 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, "We've all written small libraries of the kind that Ian was describing, probably several times over." |
| 14:55 | <jgraham> | Oh, context is email |
| 14:56 | <MikeSmith> | q? |
| 14:56 | <jgraham> | darobin: Pretty sure that you bake things in, not boil things in |
| 14:56 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: well I guess we all have some of those kinky, painful things we enjoy |
| 14:56 | <jgraham> | Boiling is what you do to oceans |
| 14:56 | <darobin> | jgraham: my point exactly |
| 14:56 | <Ms2ger> | q+ MikeSmith |
| 14:57 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8324&to=8325 is empty |
| 14:57 | <hsivonen> | darobin: wow. that XSLT JSON thing was one of those things that confuse joke-or-serious detection without the spec link |
| 14:57 | <Ms2ger> | hsivonen, even with the spec link... |
| 14:57 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: le sigh |
| 14:58 | <darobin> | hsivonen: you clearly haven't been to an XML conference in a while — all they talk about is JSON these days :) |
| 14:58 | <annevk> | The spec link fact sounds sad |
| 14:58 | <darobin> | hsivonen: that said, JSON support makes a lot of sense for XQuery — I guess it just got into XSLT that way |
| 15:00 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: "fixed" |
| 15:00 | <Ms2ger> | Ta |
| 15:00 | <hsivonen> | darobin: how is JSONx (not a joke apparently!) doing at XML conferences? |
| 15:00 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: should really say "Ta" since this is going to happen again soonish at the rate things are going now |
| 15:00 | <darobin> | hsivonen: I can't say I have my ear that close to the ground, but I haven't heard about that at all in those circles |
| 15:01 | <hsivonen> | darobin: I guess that's a good sign |
| 15:01 | <darobin> | hsivonen: processing JSON with XML tools started coming up a few years ago; most people recommend the "Snelson Mapping" |
| 15:01 | <darobin> | I doubt anyone needs any kind of standard for that, especially not given support in XQuery/XSLT... |
| 15:01 | <darobin> | the MarkLogic people have been supporting JSON forever, you can use it as a JSON DB |
| 15:02 | <darobin> | I think they use Snelson internally |
| 15:02 | <darobin> | the one thing from that world which I would dearly like is http://jsoniq.org/ for JSON DBs |
| 15:02 | <darobin> | (and is possible over IndexedDB) |
| 15:29 | <jgraham> | https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/368 has been stuck for weeks :( |
| 15:31 | <Ms2ger> | Since Monday last week ;) |
| 15:32 | <jgraham> | In unrelated news, it seems polyglot is the HTMLWG equivalent of a comedy callback. It's carefully timed so that just when everyone has forgotten it, it's brought out again for another laugh |
| 15:32 | <odinho> | lol |
| 15:47 | <Lachy_> | jgraham, what recent discussion has there been on polyglot? I don't see any on public-html |
| 15:51 | <jgraham> | "Preference Survey: Polyglot Note vs Recommendation Track" |
| 16:06 | <Lachy> | jgraham, I can't find any mail with that subject on any W3C list. |
| 16:06 | <Ms2ger`> | It's on the whatwg list |
| 16:06 | Ms2ger` | ducks |
| 16:07 | <Lachy> | :-) |
| 16:08 | <MikeSmith> | hey it's Lachy |
| 16:08 | <Lachy> | Hi Mike |
| 16:08 | <MikeSmith> | howdy |
| 22:01 | <Hixie> | is there work ongoing into server-push notifications for web apps that aren't open? |
| 22:11 | <Hixie> | GPHemsley: any chance we can make the big warnings at the top of http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ get hidden for that page? |
| 22:47 | <hober> | Hixie: I don't think I understand the question |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | re server-push notifications? |
| 22:48 | <hober> | yeah |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | well like on android you can receive a text message notification even if your text message app isn't running, because the cloud can push a notification to your device |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | do we have anything similar but for web apps in the works? |
| 22:50 | <hober> | like https://developer.apple.com/notifications/safari-push-notifications/ ? |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | yeah, but not a proprietary thing :-) |
| 22:51 | <hober> | istm a "push api" being worked on in the webapps wg |
| 22:51 | <hober> | but I don't know if that's related offhand |
| 22:51 | <Hixie> | https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/push/raw-file/tip/index.html ? |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | seems like what i'm looking for! |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | thanks! |
| 22:52 | <hober> | np |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | oops |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | marked the last two commits as editorial |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | but they're normative |
| 23:00 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: a challenge to making a non-proprietary version is that app-not-running push generally needs an intermediary service of some kind, and therefore requires the web server authenticating to that push server |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | for that reason i was mostly hoping someone else was working on it so it could be Not My Problem. :-) |
| 23:00 | <othermaciej> | Push API punts on solving that (and also on defining the protocol you use to talk to the push service) |
| 23:01 | <Hixie> | pity |
| 23:01 | <othermaciej> | Push API isn't even a suitable generic cover over a not-fully-specified set of non-interoperable protocols like EME is |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | it does seem to be common for spec writers to punt on the hard stuff |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | it's like spec writers think there's glory in writing specs |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | poor, poor misguided spec writers :-) |
| 23:03 | <othermaciej> | I don't think we could convert Safari's proprietary push stuff to that API for instance, because it has no mechanism for providing an authentication token to the app server that will then talk to the push server |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | it doesn't provide a way to close the loop? |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | that seems like a pretty big hole |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | i guess send feedback? |
| 23:07 | <othermaciej> | adding to TODO list |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | :-) |