| 07:48 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fexample.com%2F validates dispite having two encoding decls |
| 07:49 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: yeah I haven't implemented a check for that case yet |
| 07:50 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: and now millions of people will copy-paste from example.com and then get angry when you do implement that check :-P |
| 07:52 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 07:52 | <MikeSmith> | yup |
| 07:57 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: can you have a look at https://github.com/ResponsiveImagesCG/picture-element/pull/109 please? |
| 08:58 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: do you know if lxml is installed on html5.org? |
| 08:58 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie doesn't seem to have it on whatwg.org and I don't want to try to figure out how to do the same thing in perl |
| 09:01 | <MikeSmith> | hmm no lxml on html5.org either |
| 09:17 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: why do you need lxml? |
| 09:29 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: I don't necessarily need lxml I guess |
| 09:29 | <MikeSmith> | if there's some other relaTively easy way |
| 09:29 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: what are you trying to do? |
| 09:30 | <MikeSmith> | get the text contents of the first cell in each row of a table |
| 09:32 | <zcorpan> | from an arbitrary URL? |
| 09:32 | <MikeSmith> | the MetaExtensions page from the wiki |
| 09:33 | <MikeSmith> | just want to grab only the registered names |
| 09:36 | <MikeSmith> | I guess I could just use whatever stock DOM API there is in python |
| 09:37 | <MikeSmith> | and whatever html parser |
| 09:38 | <zcorpan> | don't wikis have APIs to read the data so you don't have to scrape the HTML? |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | mediawiki doesn't seem to |
| 09:41 | <MikeSmith> | at least not that I could find |
| 09:41 | <zcorpan> | http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Main_page |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | wish it did. would save me the trouble |
| 09:42 | <MikeSmith> | yeah that doesn't have what I need |
| 09:43 | <MikeSmith> | as far as I can tell |
| 09:43 | <MikeSmith> | plus we are running an old version of mediawiki |
| 09:43 | <MikeSmith> | I think |
| 09:45 | <MikeSmith> | as far as I could find, all that API lets me do it's grab the raw wikitext as one big chunk |
| 09:45 | <MikeSmith> | but would be very happy to find out I'm missing something in the docs |
| 09:47 | <zcorpan> | yeah ok, i can see that it doesn't help you much |
| 09:49 | <MikeSmith> | yeah I asked Aryeh about it couple years back and he said even the latest API didn't provide anything |
| 09:49 | <MikeSmith> | anyway I'll mess around with or more later |
| 09:50 | <MikeSmith> | I'm on a plane to San Francisco that's about to depart |
| 09:51 | <Ms2ger> | Don't fall down |
| 09:53 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: write a regex |
| 09:53 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 10:40 | <darobin> | MikeSmith: if you can get at the raw wiki text, then there's a bunch of parsers for that which you could use |
| 10:40 | <darobin> | given how many there are you'd hope at least one is passable |
| 11:20 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: Why does it have to run on html5.org? |
| 11:20 | <jgraham> | But you could certainly use html5lib + ElementTree or something |
| 12:28 | <JakeA> | Anyone got a clue on how es imports (the declarative kind) may work in the browser? |
| 15:25 | <Domenic_> | JakeA: I believe the plan of record is something like <script type="module" src="main-module.js"></script>, where main-module.js uses standard ES import syntax. |
| 15:26 | <Domenic_> | JakeA: this would be sugar for <script>System.import("main-module.js");</script> |
| 15:28 | <JakeA> | Domenic_: Ahh ok, what would <script>import foo from "foo";</script> do? |
| 15:29 | <JakeA> | Would it block? |
| 15:29 | <Domenic_> | JakeA: be a syntax error; scripts cannot use syntax only available in modules. |
| 15:34 | <JakeA> | Domenic_: Ahh, I didn't know import was module-only. |
| 15:37 | <JakeA> | Domenic_: Did the idea of module bundling get beyond the idea of zip urls? |
| 15:37 | <Domenic_> | JakeA: not really, although Dave is still interested in working on that. There's also manual bundling with System.define('path-to-module', 'source-code-of-module') I believe. |
| 15:46 | <JakeA> | Domenic_: Interesting. What's the scope of System.define? If <script type="module" src="main-module.js"></script> defines a load of modules, are they available to System.imports elsewhere in the page? |
| 15:49 | <Domenic_> | JakeA: I think so, although since modules are loaded async you'd have a bad time waiting for module-load before trying to use System.import |
| 15:49 | <JakeA> | Domenic_: Exactly what I was thinking |
| 15:49 | <Domenic_> | you shouldn't be using System.define in modules, really. It's meant for scripts |
| 15:49 | <JakeA> | <script src="my-modules.js" async></script> ... <script>System.import('comments').then(initComments)</script> |
| 15:49 | <JakeA> | ...will be async faily |
| 15:49 | <Domenic_> | yeah, just like anything that relies of <script async> + <script> executing in order |
| 15:49 | <JakeA> | Right |
| 15:49 | <Domenic_> | just use <script> + <script> |
| 15:49 | <JakeA> | Which blocks :( |
| 15:50 | <Domenic_> | i think you understand this stuff much more than i, but why does that block any more than <script async> + <script>? In both cases you have a blocking <script>. |
| 15:50 | <JakeA> | <script> blocks any further rendering because of the potential of document.write |
| 15:51 | <JakeA> | whereas async doesn't. But async throws out any control of execution order |
| 15:51 | <Domenic_> | sure. but <script async> + <script> still blocks, right? Since <script> blocks. |
| 15:52 | <JakeA> | The 2nd script doesn't wait for the async script |
| 15:52 | <Domenic_> | sure, but i thought you were worried about blocking... |
| 15:53 | <JakeA> | If script B depends on script A, both scripts must load in a blocking way, right? |
| 15:54 | <Domenic_> | I dunno, I vaguely remember there being some HTML attribute that preserved order but didn't block? |
| 15:54 | <Domenic_> | Or you could just concat the two and use <script async> for the result |
| 15:54 | <JakeA> | defer will execute in doc order, but it waits until domready and is broken in IE<10 |
| 15:54 | <Domenic_> | (That is how most bundlers, RequireJS, browserify etc. work already---your bundle contains module definitions + main module code.) |
| 15:55 | <JakeA> | Right, having to combine isn't great in a spdy/http2 world |
| 15:55 | <Domenic_> | well then why are we talking about bundles anyway |
| 15:55 | <Domenic_> | just use modules straight-up |
| 15:55 | <JakeA> | And if you have scripts A, B, C, D etc, where B onwards depend on A, but no interdependency, you're slowing down enhancements |
| 15:56 | <JakeA> | Bundling was a separate question |
| 15:57 | <Domenic_> | but you were asking about load order in the context of a bundle ("my-modules.js"), so I got confused. |
| 15:57 | <Domenic_> | if you are not bundling, ordering is solved by the module loader system |
| 15:58 | <JakeA> | Makes sense, so <script type="module" src="main-module.js"></script> becomes a way to flatten the dependency tree? |
| 15:59 | <JakeA> | As in, have as many script[type=module]s as you need, so the preparser catches them? |
| 16:02 | <Ms2ger> | Boo, script type |
| 16:03 | <Domenic_> | Ms2ger: I know, unfortunately it's the only parser-compatible solution it seems. |
| 16:03 | <Domenic_> | JakeA: I guess? I thought in HTTP2 the server would just push all files in the graph the moment you required main-module.js |
| 16:04 | <Ms2ger> | Unrelatedly |
| 16:04 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan++ |
| 16:06 | <JakeA> | Domenic_: unless main-module's requirements had crossover with others that you may have encountered on other pages |
| 16:06 | <JakeA> | Domenic_: may end up downloading stuff you already have |
| 16:06 | <Domenic_> | JakeA: I thought http2 would try pushing those and then be told it's not necessary |
| 16:07 | <JakeA> | Domenic_: hmm, possibly, I'm unclear on that |
| 16:07 | <Domenic_> | JakeA: RST_STREAM from http://www.mnot.net/blog/2014/01/30/http2_expectations |
| 16:08 | <JakeA> | Domenic_: Ahh that's good, I hadn't seen that feature before |
| 16:08 | <JakeA> | Ok, that all makes sense. We went around a bit last year on the idea of <script requires=".other-script-and-link-elements">, but think modules covers most of it |
| 16:09 | <Domenic_> | yeah, i think it should work pretty nicely :) |
| 16:09 | <JakeA> | Cheers! |
| 16:40 | <aleray> | Hi, I'm trying to write a small function to wrap implicit section of an html document into section tags. Here is the input and output: http://dpaste.com/1653856/ |
| 16:40 | <aleray> | I'm trying to do so with lxml.etree |
| 16:40 | <aleray> | any idea? |
| 17:47 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 18:45 | <cwilso___> | Wow, no replies. Good morning, dglazkov! |
| 18:45 | <Hixie> | a cwilso! |
| 19:18 | <gsnedders> | Hixie, TabAtkins: can I get a rucksack shipped to one of you? Warranty replacement will only ship to the US — if either of you could just keep it around until I'm next around (which I guess will be TPAC), I'd appreciate it. |
| 19:39 | <TabAtkins> | gsnedders: Yeah, let me send you mya ddress. |
| 20:50 | <gsnedders> | Can someone please fix Fx so if there's a new update made available after one has been downloaded it downloads the new one? |
| 20:54 | <Ms2ger> | Anyone feel like getting the webgl tests into wpt? |
| 21:31 | <MikeSmith> | greetings from San Francisco whatwgians |
| 21:31 | <Hixie> | greetings |
| 21:31 | <MikeSmith> | I guess I won't need the down jacket I brought |
| 21:32 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: yeah I feel like getting webgl tests into wpt but not strongly enough to write them |
| 21:32 | <Ms2ger> | Khronos has some |
| 21:33 | <MikeSmith> | well |
| 21:33 | <Ms2ger> | Not very good ones |
| 21:33 | <Ms2ger> | But still :) |
| 21:33 | <MikeSmith> | yeah maybe they've improved since that last time I tried to run them |
| 21:35 | <rafaelrinaldi> | MikeSmith: greetings from Brazil :) |
| 21:39 | <MikeSmith> | rafaelrinaldi: I reckon my down jacket would be even less useful there right now |
| 21:47 | <hober> | MikeSmith: how long are you in town? |
| 21:49 | <MikeSmith> | hober: all week |
| 21:50 | <othermaciej> | hober, MikeSmith: town == SF? |
| 21:50 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: yep |
| 21:51 | <Domenic_> | so... how about dem microtasks? (i am stuck compiling java at work and super-bored.) |
| 21:51 | <othermaciej> | I believe this calls for a traditional ritual ingestion of alcoholic beverages at some point |
| 21:51 | <othermaciej> | (if time permits) |
| 21:51 | <hober> | othermaciej++ |
| 21:52 | <MikeSmith> | othermaciej: yes and a toast or two or three to something appropriate |
| 21:54 | <MikeSmith> | my evenings are pretty much all free so far |
| 21:54 | <MikeSmith> | so, plenty of toasting opportunities |
| 21:55 | <Hixie> | anyone got ELinks around? |
| 21:57 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: I reckon I do |
| 21:58 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/xhtml/001.xhtml |
| 21:58 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: basic sanity test for xhtml. what does it do on that page? |
| 21:58 | <Hixie> | (compare to firefox or chrome or something for a baseline) |
| 21:58 | <MikeSmith> | it says "What would you like to do with the file '001.xhtml' (type: text/xml)?" |
| 21:58 | <MikeSmith> | prompts me to download it |
| 21:59 | <Hixie> | excellent, thanks |
| 22:04 | <Hixie> | i wonder where this convention of quoting using [[...]] came from |
| 22:04 | <Hixie> | it's so ugly and unclear compared to prefixing lines in blocks, or using regular quotes... |
| 22:05 | <TabAtkins> | Who's doing that? That's weird. |
| 22:05 | <TabAtkins> | [...] is only to be used for elisions and rephrasings within a quote. |
| 22:12 | <Hixie> | a lot of people do [[...]] |
| 22:13 | <Hixie> | e.g. the bug filing thing on dom.spec.whatwg.org |
| 22:14 | <TabAtkins> | Oh, that's weird. |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | wtf |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | apache just stopped responding? |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | everything else on the machine is working fine. |
| 22:57 | <SimonSapin> | Is there public data where I can look for usage of some features on the web? |
| 22:57 | <SimonSapin> | (In this case, this is about dropping display:-moz-grid, which is XUL and not css-grid) |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | SimonSapin: there are some... Philip`_ might know about them? |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | or zcorpan? |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | in other news, it seems my outage is limited to ipv4. |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | no, not even that |
| 22:58 | <Hixie> | w.t.f. |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | and now it works |
| 22:59 | <Hixie> | computers baffle me. |
| 23:02 | <aklein> | Hixie: can you clarify whether you changed <img> elements to reload when _inserted_ into a new document or when _adopted_ into a new document? http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=8508&to=8509 isn't loading for me |
| 23:03 | <aklein> | Hixie: ah, just loaded, sounds like adopting |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | i used the hook anne gave, which is triggered on adoption, but after insertion if the adoption happened with insertion. or at least, it will eventually be after, but right now it's before. or something. |
| 23:05 | <aklein> | hehe |
| 23:05 | <aklein> | ok |
| 23:05 | <aklein> | it would be pretty strange for adoption to happen after insertion, imho |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | no i mean the hook is called after insertion |
| 23:05 | <aklein> | because then you don't have the invariant that everything in a document has the same ownerDocument |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | the adpotion obviously happens before |
| 23:05 | <aklein> | ahh |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 23:06 | <aklein> | I guess I'll have to keep my eye out for that moving around, as it'll make WebKit and Blink incompatible with the spec... |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | supposedly that change is needed for web components |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | but i don't know the details (except what's in the bug) |
| 23:08 | <aklein> | huh, even more mysterious |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | any recent IE users around able to tell me what the log is in: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2840 perchance? |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | (make sure to wait the 6 seconds) |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | nevermind, that test is busted |
| 23:29 | <Hixie> | heh, a google search for [meta name blogID] gets a lot of broken pages |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins, tantek: do you know if anyone supports http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui/#nav-index ? |
| 23:32 | <tantek> | Hixie, not AFAIK. Hence at risk. |
| 23:32 | <Hixie> | k |
| 23:32 | <TabAtkins> | Presto Opera might have, I dunno. Maybe some TVs, as they've implemented some of the nav-* stuff, but maybe only the directional ones. |
| 23:32 | <tantek> | Hixie, I could be convinced to actually drop it from the next "published draft" |
| 23:32 | <tantek> | TabAtkins - only directional |
| 23:32 | <TabAtkins> | Ok, cool. |
| 23:32 | <Hixie> | i'm trying to figure out what i should be editing, or getting edited, to make sequential tab order work in the new focus world, in particular wrt skipping inertness |
| 23:33 | <Hixie> | i'm game to just speccing it in HTML if you think that's best |
| 23:33 | <tantek> | Hixie, I have mixed feelings |
| 23:33 | <Hixie> | or alternatively i can file a bug on css or something |
| 23:33 | <gsnedders> | Relatively certain ZombiePresto supports it, at for TVs. |
| 23:33 | <tantek> | Hixie - this is the nav-index issue: http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-ui#issue-25 |
| 23:35 | <Hixie> | tantek: well we need to spec somewhere that you can tab through viewports, scroll regions, multiple focusable regions e.g. in <video> control UIs, elements with tabindex="", input controls etc, but not e.g. links (by default) on mac, and not elements that are inert |
| 23:35 | <tantek> | Hixie, I'm collecting stuff to "fix" nav-index here: wiki.csswg.org/spec/css4-ui#nav-properties |
| 23:35 | <tantek> | I don't have strong feelings about where it goes |
| 23:35 | <Hixie> | (and not elements that have the tabindex focus flag but had tabindex=-1) |
| 23:35 | <tantek> | but if you want to add more "asks" e.g. what you wrote ^^^ I'm ok with that too |
| 23:36 | <tantek> | like I said, mixed / not strong feelings about it. if you have strong feelings about it let me know. |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | my only strong feeling is i want it specced, sooner rather than later if possible |
| 23:36 | <Hixie> | happy to go either way on this |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | so if your ETA is next 6 months, i can just give you a brain dump. if it's > 6 months, maybe best for me just to spec it, and then i can rip it out when you get a round tuit. |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | either way is fine by me |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | so long as we have a plan :-) |
| 23:37 | <TabAtkins> | a round tuit? |
| 23:37 | <TabAtkins> | around to it? |
| 23:38 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: https://www.google.com/search?q=round+tuit :-) |
| 23:39 | <Hixie> | even better link: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/round_tuit |
| 23:39 | <TabAtkins> | Ah, I see. |
| 23:41 | <Hixie> | tantek: (related: there's been feature requests for tabindex scoping in HTML; presumably we should decide if it belongs in HTML or CSS) |
| 23:47 | <aleray> | hi, any advices for this questions? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21993725/wrap-implicit-section-of-an-html-document-into-section-tags-using-lxml-etree |
| 23:47 | <aleray> | my mind is foamy today and I can't think of a solution to handle subheading nesting. |
| 23:48 | <Hixie> | tantek: so... should i go ahead and spec something in HTML? |
| 23:48 | <tantek> | hixie, bbiab - in meeting |
| 23:48 | <Hixie> | tantek: ah, ok. ttyiab! |
| 23:50 | <TabAtkins> | aleray: I don't see the problem. Search over the document for top-level sections, collecting elements into an array and then moving them into a <section> when it's closed. Then iterate over the <section>'s contents in the same way. |
| 23:50 | <TabAtkins> | That'll give you nested sections. |
| 23:52 | <aleray> | TabAtkins, interesting thanks |