| 00:30 | <Hixie> | tantek: fwiw, http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#sequential-focus-navigation is what i came up with. nothing new, particularly (other than <dialog> support), as far as authors are concerned. But it should provide us with a good framework for adding e.g. scoping. It doesn't currently support 'nav-index', wasn't sure how to integrate that with tabindex, so I left it out for now. File a bug if there's implementation interest in nav-index such tha |
| 00:30 | <SamB> | "[...] in nav-index such tha"? |
| 00:37 | <tantek> | Hixie, better to leave out nav-index until there's both a shown need and interest in implementing. It was in CSS3-UI CR for a LONG time and no one implemented. So I consider it dead unless 2+ implementers come to me asking for it. |
| 00:37 | <tantek> | thanks for that link. I'll track it in the nav-index page on the CSSWG wiki |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | SamB: such that I should spec it, sorry |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | tantek: k, sounds good |
| 05:49 | <wirepair> | why does angularjs rub me the wrong way so much... is this really what the web is going to become? |
| 06:21 | <filR> | wirepair: probably. but perhaps not in the form of angularjs. some of the features are coming to html natively. take a look at http://www.polymer-project.org/platform/shadow-dom.html < basically a directive |
| 06:24 | <wirepair> | ah yes, been meaning to read up on shadow dom stuff |
| 06:37 | <wirepair> | now that makes a lot more practical sense |
| 10:33 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: do we have a policy for tests that use the Ahem font? use csswg-style <meta>? |
| 10:37 | zcorpan | finds http://testthewebforward.org/docs/test-templates.html |
| 10:46 | <shiongssd> | m |
| 10:52 | <zcorpan> | w3c bugzilla down? MikeSmith? |
| 11:09 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: I don't think so? |
| 11:09 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: I certainly don't consider the CSSWG requirements necessary |
| 11:11 | <zcorpan> | hmm, ok. but it's cool to use the ahem font and assume that it's installed? |
| 11:11 | <jgraham> | I would say so. We should probably document it as a dependency or something |
| 11:12 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: yeah the w3c bugzilla host is having some problems. The systems team's working on it |
| 11:13 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: ok thx |
| 11:41 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: what is the status of .sub.html in wptserve? |
| 11:46 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: Unimplemented |
| 11:47 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: I could have a look now if you need it |
| 11:47 | <zcorpan> | i was going to suggest using it in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/828 |
| 11:56 | <jgraham> | https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/901 |
| 12:00 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: do i read it right that .html.sub works but .sub.html does not? |
| 12:01 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: The other way around |
| 12:03 | <zcorpan> | oh ok |
| 12:05 | <zcorpan> | thanks |
| 12:06 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: FYI during the test-writing session yesterday at the WebDriver f2f, one of the people there commented that he didn't like it that critic was "forging" his name (and address?) on the e-mail notifications it sent out. I guess he was surprised to see the message was sent out automatically from critic without him having taken any direct action except creating a github PR |
| 12:07 | <MikeSmith> | I didn't really know what to tell him except *shrug* |
| 12:08 | <MikeSmith> | github basically does the same thing already, with its notifications. I guess it's just less surprising because people are used to it already |
| 12:09 | <jgraham> | Yeah, I don't know what to say, really |
| 12:09 | <MikeSmith> | though github does also send them with foo⊙ngc |
| 12:11 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: yeah I explained more about it the setup to him and that seemed to alleviate the heartburn some |
| 12:11 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: OK, well feel free to put him in contact with me if there are any remaining issues |
| 12:11 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 12:13 | <jgraham> | zcorpan: OK, that is pushed |
| 12:13 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: awesome |
| 12:36 | <zcorpan> | i wonder if <summary>.click() should do anything |
| 12:37 | <zcorpan> | i think the spec says it does nothing |
| 12:48 | <MikeSmith> | lots of interesting info about screen-reader usage at http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey5/ |
| 12:49 | <MikeSmith> | via SteveF |
| 12:49 | <MikeSmith> | including mobile usage |
| 12:49 | <MikeSmith> | and browsers |
| 12:49 | <MikeSmith> | and bits like http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey5/#finding |
| 12:50 | <MikeSmith> | which suggests it's important to put good headings into documents you write |
| 13:05 | <MikeSmith> | <meta name="apple-mobile-web-app-title" content="Some App Name"> appears to be supported in iOS Safari and very widely used, but completely undocumented by Apple |
| 13:05 | <MikeSmith> | which strictly speaking per the spec would mean it fails to meet the registration requirements in the spec |
| 13:06 | <MikeSmith> | but it seems dumb to treat it as an error |
| 13:06 | <MikeSmith> | *document-conformance error |
| 15:23 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=2839 (in case hallvord wants/needs assistance with rebasing in critic or with wptserve...) |
| 15:25 | <zcorpan> | woot i've caught up with critic email backlog |
| 15:29 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan++ |
| 15:30 | <zcorpan> | hmm i tried to set up a filter to ignore custom-elements/ but it doesn't match anything |
| 16:38 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 22:50 | <Ms2ger> | Dave Raggett had excellent foresight: https://twitter.com/mattur/status/438820509086924800 |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | "The HTML that Tim invented was strongly based on SGML (Standard Generalized Mark-up Language)" is rather revisionist, isn't it? I mean, I would buy "influenced by", but it wasn't even attempting to be SGML proper until DanC came along. |
| 23:05 | <Hixie> | (from http://www.w3.org/People/Raggett/book4/ch02.html) |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | (linked to from the tweet above) |
| 23:08 | <erlehmann> | Hixie what is this? http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-server-sent-events.html |
| 23:08 | <erlehmann> | <p>The page you are looking for is no longer available at this URL.</p> |
| 23:08 | <erlehmann> | is there a redirect? |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | that links works for me... try again? |
| 23:10 | <erlehmann> | ; curl -s http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-server-sent-events.html | grep Broken |
| 23:10 | <erlehmann> | <title>Broken link</title> |
| 23:10 | <erlehmann> | is there some type of IP filtering going on? |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | no, it uses JS to redirect you |
| 23:11 | <erlehmann> | ; curl -sI http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-server-sent-events.html | grep 404 |
| 23:11 | <erlehmann> | HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found |
| 23:11 | <erlehmann> | oh lawl |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | because we don't know ahead of time what the url should be -- we look at the fragment identifier |
| 23:12 | <erlehmann> | i see. |
| 23:12 | <erlehmann> | pages move around in sections. |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | other way around but yeah |
| 23:12 | <erlehmann> | yeah |
| 23:12 | <erlehmann> | :3 |
| 23:12 | <erlehmann> | okay, sorry bothering you |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | np |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | (there is also ip filtering going on, but you have to hit the server pretty hard for quite a long time for my script to even notice you and filter you) |
| 23:13 | <erlehmann> | ah |
| 23:13 | <erlehmann> | say, if you are there, how could i move forward with my older proposal of having fragment identifiers for media elements contain media fragments? |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | (for some reason there are bots out there that act really weird) |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | don't they already? |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | you mean like <video src="">? |
| 23:13 | <erlehmann> | like, i have a polyfill for something like http://example.org/#video?t=abc |
| 23:14 | <erlehmann> | like, i have a polyfill for something like http://example.org/#video?t=1:00 |
| 23:14 | <Hixie> | oh you mean the fragment identifier of the page forwarding to the first video element? |
| 23:14 | <erlehmann> | no, i would like to generally address subresources |
| 23:14 | <erlehmann> | i did look at the data and '?t=' in urls or ids is very rare. |
| 23:14 | <erlehmann> | close to nonexistent, i think. |
| 23:14 | <erlehmann> | and one could always use another delimiter |
| 23:15 | <erlehmann> | hixie, here is my demo http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/media-fragments-html-polyfill/ |
| 23:15 | <erlehmann> | is there an appropriate mailing list? the response on the whatwg mailing list was not much. |
| 23:16 | <erlehmann> | i *know* there are people building stuff like that in js all the time and i think they would not need to |
| 23:16 | <erlehmann> | and „let me link to this podcast“ would be nicer if the link would be on the page |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | ah i see, the fragid forwarding to a generic element in the page, basically? |
| 23:16 | <erlehmann> | so how would i go to further that proposal? |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | the short answer is that what matters is whether any browser vendors cares |
| 23:16 | <erlehmann> | so whom should i talk to? |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | if you got no response on the list, then they probably don't |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | did i reply to your e-mail or is it still in my pile? |
| 23:17 | <erlehmann> | let me check |
| 23:19 | <erlehmann> | Hixie thanks for asking. you even converted it into a bug! https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23492 |
| 23:19 | <erlehmann> | Target Milestone: Needs Impl Interest |
| 23:19 | <erlehmann> | i have author interest (lots of podcasters) |
| 23:19 | <erlehmann> | is there a media elements fun mailing list? |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | whatwg⊙wo |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | but basically the next step is getting implementation experience |
| 23:21 | <Hixie> | which means getting implementation interest |
| 23:21 | <erlehmann> | so i need to convince someone, i assume? |
| 23:21 | <erlehmann> | i have no idea how to approach this. my contributions to software projects are usually small patches. |
| 23:21 | <Hixie> | well... i'm always a bit reluctant to actually canvas for features. i always feel like if you have to convince someone, it probably means it's not important enough to do in the first place. (As opposed to features people immediately agree are a good idea.) |
| 23:21 | <erlehmann> | this would require real world testing and instrumentation. |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | but yeah, convincing multiple browser vendors to do it would be one way |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | or you could go the adobe route and just implement it for each vendor and try to convince them to take the patch |
| 23:22 | <erlehmann> | does that work? |
| 23:22 | <erlehmann> | i mean, the patches are probably small. |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | it has sometimes worked for them |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | personally i find it a bit distasteful |
| 23:23 | <astearns__> | I thought that was the Microsoft pointer-events approach :) |
| 23:23 | <Hixie> | yeah, microsoft have done this too |
| 23:23 | <Hixie> | i mean, like i said, i feel that if a feature is worth it, people will just implement it without you having to convince them |
| 23:23 | <erlehmann> | people implement it all the time in js |
| 23:23 | <erlehmann> | badly, broken and non-accessible if you have noscript. only jumping to the first element. |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | it certainly doesn't seem dumb to me |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 23:24 | <erlehmann> | and i think since embedded media is such an important part of html, that could work in a general case |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | (hence filing the bug to track it, rather than saying "I don't think this is a good idea") |
| 23:24 | <erlehmann> | other formats have sub-fragments too, i think |
| 23:24 | <erlehmann> | ah! |
| 23:24 | <erlehmann> | i see. |
| 23:25 | <Hixie> | i would caution against trying to be too generic |
| 23:25 | <Hixie> | a lot of features die that way |
| 23:26 | <erlehmann> | i would just want to apply the media fragment to the embedded resource. but in the end, i could also settle for ?t=hh:mm:ss or something equally simple (though underwhelming, after all, the media fragment implementor experience is there) |
| 23:27 | <erlehmann> | so which code base is supposed to be the easiest to work on? blink seems like a horrid mess (also they refer internal stuff i cannot read all the time in their bugtracker), is webkit or mozilla more accessible? |
| 23:27 | <erlehmann> | (are there more implementors with open code?) |
| 23:27 | <Hixie> | blink doesn't have an internal bugtracker, do you mean webkit? |
| 23:28 | <erlehmann> | chromium |
| 23:28 | <erlehmann> | probably |
| 23:28 | <Hixie> | chromium doesn't have an internal bugtracker |
| 23:28 | <Hixie> | blink and webkit are very similar codebases, they only forked recently |
| 23:28 | <erlehmann> | oh? |
| 23:28 | <erlehmann> | let me look up what i meant |
| 23:29 | <erlehmann> | https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=93841 |
| 23:29 | <erlehmann> | > Report link: http://go/crash/reportdetail?reportid=06bbd629efcb5c11 |
| 23:30 | <erlehmann> | i assume /go/ is their internal bugtracker |
| 23:30 | <Hixie> | oh that's just the crash log server |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | those are always confidential (so's mozilla's, for example) |
| 23:31 | <Hixie> | because they potentially contain user PII |
| 23:32 | <erlehmann> | PII? |
| 23:32 | <erlehmann> | Private something? |
| 23:32 | <Hixie> | Personally identifiable information |
| 23:32 | <erlehmann> | ooooookay, also my DNS is messed up |
| 23:32 | <erlehmann> | wtf |
| 23:33 | <erlehmann> | no it isn't. something has taken over my browsers „cannot find URL“ mechanism. |
| 23:33 | <Hixie> | (crash log servers tend to be under very tight control, so that only the engineers that actually need to be able to see the data from a particular crash can see it.) |
| 23:33 | <erlehmann> | need to know basis |
| 23:33 | <erlehmann> | i understand completely |
| 23:34 | <erlehmann> | so the question still stands. what code base would you consider accessible? |
| 23:36 | <erlehmann> | oh, it just redirects go to go.com |
| 23:36 | <erlehmann> | no hijacking going on |
| 23:37 | <Hixie> | i expect they're all about the same... hugely complicated and intimidating :-) |