| 02:47 | <roc> | anyone have any idea why Safari doesn't supported IndexedDB? |
| 04:25 | <MikeSmith> | the definition of "absolute URL" at http://url.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-absolute-url disallows absolute URLs from having a fragment |
| 06:48 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.scribd.com/doc/213628421/Exhibit-1871 is pretty interesting |
| 06:49 | <MikeSmith> | (by way of roc's blog http://robert.ocallahan.org/2014/03/mozilla-and-silicon-valley-cartel.html) |
| 07:01 | <a-ja> | MikeSmith: you do work on validator.nu ? |
| 07:01 | <MikeSmith> | a-ja: yup |
| 07:02 | <a-ja> | found an inconsistancy between it and w3c's |
| 07:02 | <a-ja> | header content on summary element not allowed yet |
| 07:04 | <a-ja> | whatwg spec allows it now....fairly recent change (and html5.1 ??? iirc) |
| 07:14 | <MikeSmith> | a-ja: I work on the shared backend for validator.nu and the W3C Nu validator but not on the actual http://validator.nu/ or http://html5.validator.nu/ services |
| 07:16 | <MikeSmith> | I push changes to http://validator.w3.org/nu/ at least once a week or so but these days http://validator.nu/ and http://html5.validator.nu/ don't get updated with the changes quite as often |
| 07:23 | <a-ja> | MikeSmith: related question...if you recall, we chatted a bit about summary role=button and details role=group failing. so removed both, and validator then complained about missing roles (but didn't say which roles they should be). help me out?! :) |
| 07:37 | <MikeSmith> | a-ja: if you give me an document or URL I can check |
| 07:38 | <a-ja> | MikeSmith: <details id="toc-details" role="group" aria-labelledby="toc-summary" open="open"><summary id="toc-summary" role="button" aria-controls="toc-details" aria-expanded="true" tabindex="0"> |
| 07:38 | <a-ja> | MikeSmith: vs just: <details id="toc-details" aria-labelledby="toc-summary" open="open"><summary id="toc-summary" aria-controls="toc-details" aria-expanded="true" tabindex="0"> |
| 07:39 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 07:40 | <MikeSmith> | a-ja: so I guess if you use other aria-* attributes on those elements, it's going to say you need the role attribute |
| 07:40 | <a-ja> | MikeSmith: perhaps so |
| 07:40 | <MikeSmith> | because those particular aria- attributes are only valid for certain roles |
| 07:41 | <MikeSmith> | I can't easily fix the error message there |
| 07:41 | <MikeSmith> | I wish I could but the fact is the whole aria stuff is so completely baroque and overengineered that we're lucky to have any validator support for it at all |
| 07:42 | <MikeSmith> | what's there now has easily cost me more time to work on than any other part of the validator |
| 07:43 | <MikeSmith> | and I didn't even do most of the development of the aria support in the validator. hsivonen did. I just worked on top of what he had developed, and it still cost me days and days of time |
| 07:44 | <MikeSmith> | so I guess I'll just add role=group to details |
| 07:44 | <MikeSmith> | do I need to add role=button to summary also? |
| 07:44 | MikeSmith | checks the spec |
| 07:45 | <a-ja1> | not sure either of those match spec right now |
| 07:46 | <MikeSmith> | role=summary is a role that supports aria-expanded, so it matches the spec close enough |
| 07:46 | <a-ja1> | think it probably just got overlooked at the time |
| 07:46 | <a-ja1> | yep |
| 07:47 | <MikeSmith> | but |
| 07:47 | <MikeSmith> | role is not allowed for summary at all |
| 07:47 | <MikeSmith> | explicitly |
| 07:47 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#concept-role-none |
| 07:48 | <MikeSmith> | "The entry "no role", when used as a strong native semantic, means that no role other than presentation can be used." |
| 07:48 | <MikeSmith> | if you think that's misguided then you need to file a spec bug |
| 07:48 | <MikeSmith> | I can't have the validator violate that constraint |
| 07:49 | <MikeSmith> | w3c spec says the same thing: |
| 07:49 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/dom.html#concept-role-none |
| 07:55 | <a-ja1> | yeah...maybe the answer is "do it in script" rather than in the html |
| 07:55 | <MikeSmith> | yeah that's a general solution for getting around aria validation problems |
| 07:55 | <a-ja1> | polyfills forever! :\ |
| 07:56 | <MikeSmith> | the other solution is to just ignore the errors |
| 07:56 | <a-ja1> | mm hmm |
| 07:56 | <MikeSmith> | or filter them out at http://validator.w3.org/nu/ with the message filtering option |
| 08:04 | <a-ja1> | i have sympathy for the "fix ARIA, the a11y API's, and the screen readers, and stop messing with clean HTML" argument |
| 08:06 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 11:17 | <mathiasbynens> | what kinds of security vulnerabilities does `showModalDialog`’s “pause JS execution” behavior cause? |
| 11:26 | <annevk> | mathiasbynens: its nested event loop behavior is the only one in the platform, which makes for some tricky coding elsewhere, which might lead to exploits |
| 11:35 | <mathiasbynens> | annevk: gotcha, thanks |
| 12:17 | <annevk> | "I'm not why why Anne thinks an email from February reflects the current thinking of Mozillians on this topic." |
| 12:18 | <annevk> | Well, if you're gonna ask one of us in private what the status quo is and that person is not even implementing, you're gonna have a bad time... |
| 12:19 | <annevk> | "but recently selectors were renamed again" :-) |
| 13:16 | <MikeSmith> | cool, google came up with a way we don't need cookies any more https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=355541 |
| 13:38 | <SteveF> | a-ja1: role=button now allowed on <summary> thanks for the heads up it was something I had meant to fix previously https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25135 |
| 13:39 | <SteveF> | a-ja1: have spoken with mike smith, he will update http://validator.w3.org/nu/ |
| 14:02 | <Jasper> | I remember a little while ago there were meeting notes saying that :before / :after were mistakes. |
| 14:02 | <Ms2ger> | As opposed to ::before? |
| 14:03 | <Jasper> | erm, I meant ::before / ::after. |
| 14:03 | <Jasper> | I believe they were for Adobe's proposal for having multiple ::before / ::after psuedoelements? |
| 14:04 | <astearns> | Jasper: that opinion did come up in that discussion, yes |
| 14:05 | <Jasper> | It seems like multiple ::before / ::after elements will probably never happen for those reasons. |
| 14:06 | <Jasper> | Would anybody be able to find the meeting notes for me? |
| 14:06 | <astearns> | Jasper: the current multiple before/after proposal was dead on arrival |
| 14:07 | <Jasper> | Hm |
| 14:07 | <astearns> | but more ways of creating boxes in CSS keeps coming up as a need |
| 14:07 | <astearns> | so something in that area may eventually happen |
| 14:08 | <Jasper> | I remember the issue being mostly related to accessibility, scriptability and poor devtools support. |
| 14:09 | <astearns> | IMO, the main issue is scriptability - pseudo-elements will be inadequate until/unless we have better script support for them |
| 14:11 | <Jasper> | Aha, found it! http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Aug/0771.html |
| 15:05 | <annevk> | https://twitter.com/thijs/status/448064463498133504 o_O |
| 15:07 | <annevk> | Oh I'm late to the party |
| 15:16 | <ondras> | but it is amusing anyway. |
| 15:20 | <annevk> | WHATWG list is pretty close to a <canvas> list these days |
| 15:24 | <jcgregorio> | canvas \o/ :-) |
| 15:37 | <dglazkov> | good morning, Whatwg! |
| 15:44 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: btw, changing things in scripts silences the validator, but doesn't make them any more valid |
| 15:45 | <Hixie> | (why would <summary> get role=button? it's not interactive. am i missing something?) |
| 15:46 | <wilhelm> | Toggling its parent is interactive, presumably. |
| 15:47 | <Hixie> | well the interactive part of the <details> should be interactive, sure, but it's not in the DOM, so... |
| 15:48 | gsnedders | sighs |
| 15:48 | <gsnedders> | I feel like I could've saved myself months by showing everything I managed about the tokenizer through a proof by exhaustion... |
| 15:49 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 15:49 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, so, what have you learned? :) |
| 15:49 | <Ms2ger> | Why the AAA works? |
| 15:50 | <gsnedders> | hah! like I managed to model the tree constructor. |
| 15:50 | gsnedders | cries |
| 15:50 | <jgraham> | So you are saying that your decision not to use proof by exhaustion led to exhaustion? |
| 15:50 | <gsnedders> | Yes, yes entirely. |
| 15:51 | <gsnedders> | Does anyone want to try and prove that the tree constructor cannot be implemented by a pushdown automaton? |
| 15:52 | <Ms2ger> | No |
| 15:52 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: You? |
| 15:52 | <Ms2ger> | I would love to see a proof that it can be |
| 15:52 | <gsnedders> | I don't have time to before the deadline, sadly. |
| 16:03 | <gsnedders> | Ms2ger: I simultaneously suspect it is and that it is not. :( |
| 16:06 | <Ms2ger> | gsnedders, so your belief is in a state of superposition? |
| 16:06 | <gsnedders> | Actually, does the parsing of <p><table><p> not show that HTML cannot be context-free? |
| 16:14 | <SteveF> | hixie: implementations appear to disagree with you e.g. in blink summary is focusable control |
| 16:15 | <Hixie> | yeah, that's a known bug in blink |
| 16:15 | <SteveF> | bug number? |
| 16:16 | <Hixie> | no idea |
| 16:30 | <annevk> | Hixie: if an exception is thrown from a compound microtask subtask, do you handle that? or should I be catching exceptions? |
| 16:31 | <annevk> | gsnedders: what does context-free mean? |
| 16:31 | <Hixie> | interesting question |
| 16:32 | <Hixie> | a subtask is just a set of steps |
| 16:32 | <Hixie> | so i guess it depends on how you're invoking the script |
| 16:32 | <annevk> | I was looking at https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17713#c16 and wondering if what bz said under 11) is still the case |
| 16:32 | <annevk> | I just say "invoke callback with x and y" |
| 16:33 | <Hixie> | how does webidl define "invoke callback"? |
| 16:34 | <annevk> | Hixie: http://heycam.github.io/webidl/#es-invoking-callback-functions it just propagates |
| 16:34 | <annevk> | Hixie: unless it's part of a promise returning thing |
| 16:38 | <annevk> | Hixie: is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#report-the-error what I should be invoking? |
| 16:39 | <Hixie> | we should just have a single function that invokes a callback, catches exceptions and reports them |
| 16:39 | <Hixie> | but yes, i think so |
| 16:39 | <annevk> | hmm yeah, if you could provide that shorthand... |
| 16:40 | <annevk> | Hixie: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25138 |
| 16:47 | <Hixie> | annevk: will do |
| 16:48 | <Hixie> | (i'm mostly afk this week btw, won't be getting much done; sorry) |
| 16:48 | <Hixie> | annevk: should i wait for that bug to be assigned to me once heycam has seen it? |
| 16:49 | <annevk> | Hixie: either way I guess, I'd still like a <dfn> in IDL |
| 16:49 | <annevk> | Hixie: I could file a separate one on you |
| 16:50 | <Hixie> | either way. i commented on that idl bug. |
| 16:52 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context-free_grammar |
| 16:52 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: A grammar that doesn't take the surrounding context into account when expanding things. |
| 16:52 | <annevk> | Hixie: ta |
| 17:49 | <Hixie> | i can't believe how inefficient mediawiki and wordpress are |
| 17:49 | <Hixie> | i host literally dozens of sites on this one machine, including multiple long-lived websocket servers and so on, and all the cpu and ram goes to the php scripts running wiki.whatwg.org and blog.whatwg.org. |
| 17:50 | <Ms2ger> | Blame php :) |
| 17:51 | <annevk> | Hixie: oooh, so me hammering svn.whatwg.org is fine? :p |
| 17:51 | <annevk> | Hixie: I tried to get foolip to rewrite the setup, he put on his list of things to do before he dies |
| 17:58 | <foolip> | Hixie: is there any particular reason you haven't switched to git, other than not having a particular reason to do it? |
| 17:59 | <Ms2ger> | Eww, git |
| 17:59 | <Hixie> | not having any reason to do it is the main reason i don't do most things :-) |
| 17:59 | <Ms2ger> | Why would you ever use git if you weren't forced to? |
| 17:59 | <foolip> | :) |
| 18:00 | <Hixie> | annevk: svn stuff seems to all fall under apache, so i've no way to tell if it's svn or just regular web traffic |
| 18:00 | <jgraham> | I mainly use it to wind up Ms2ger |
| 18:00 | <Ms2ger> | :D |
| 18:00 | <Hixie> | annevk: (apache usage is highish, but i expect that on a machine with 60+ domains hosted) |
| 18:00 | <foolip> | Ms2ger: I use Git wherever possible, like if I need to diff two files I add them to git to get the pretty colors :) |
| 18:00 | <Hixie> | (it's nowhere near as high as i'd expect, really) |
| 18:01 | <Hixie> | foolip: i use emacs to get pretty colours |
| 18:01 | <foolip> | Hixie: I suspected you used Emacs from the way the source is wrapped :) |
| 18:02 | <tantek> | Hixie, is it PHP or is it MySQL? |
| 18:02 | <Ablu> | foolip: you do not need to add files to diff them |
| 18:02 | <Hixie> | foolip: the first line wasn't a giveaway? (-*- mode: Text; fill-column: 100 -*-) |
| 18:02 | <Ablu> | git diff <file1> <file2> works |
| 18:02 | <Hixie> | tantek: php |
| 18:02 | <Ablu> | even if they are not in git |
| 18:02 | <Hixie> | tantek: the mysql stuff is on a different box entirely |
| 18:02 | <foolip> | Hixie: well, and the comment about emacs lines in the WebVTT spec |
| 18:02 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 18:03 | <Hixie> | i have "f6" in emacs bound to "open the html spec" :-) |
| 18:03 | <foolip> | Ablu: cool, I didn't know that :) |
| 18:03 | <foolip> | but I'll probably keep using Git where not needed to spite Ms2ger |
| 18:04 | <Ms2ger> | foolip, that's probably a better reason than most to use git |
| 18:04 | <foolip> | Ms2ger: dare I ask what you would rather use? |
| 18:04 | <Ms2ger> | Take a guess |
| 18:04 | <Hixie> | git seems reasonable to use if you're working on a colaborative distributed project, like linux |
| 18:05 | <foolip> | hg |
| 18:05 | <Hixie> | if you're one person editing one file, git seems kinda pointless. |
| 18:05 | <Ms2ger> | Correct |
| 18:05 | <jgraham> | Hixie: It seems significantly better than svn for either case |
| 18:05 | <Hixie> | how is it better than svn for solo use? |
| 18:05 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, actually, I found one person editing to be the only reasonable way to use git :) |
| 18:06 | <foolip> | Hixie: I guess, unless you're already used to Git for all other projects |
| 18:06 | <Hixie> | well sure, if you're already used to it |
| 18:06 | <Hixie> | in my case, when i had to pick a version control system, all i had experienced so far was cvs |
| 18:06 | <Ablu> | why not to use git: http://vimeo.com/74377782 |
| 18:06 | <Hixie> | and git didn't exist |
| 18:07 | <TabAtkins> | I definitely vastly prefer git over svn for personal projects as well. |
| 18:07 | Ms2ger | gets off Hixie's lawn |
| 18:07 | <jgraham> | Ah, hg, the vcs that's so broken it needs a whole different system to allow you to work locally. A system that itself is so broken it requires a whole second repository to make it not astonishingly likely to lose your work |
| 18:07 | <TabAtkins> | The distributed-ness of it is nice for multi-user projects, sure, but most of the benefits are in personal use. |
| 18:08 | <Hixie> | i'm open to being convinced, but i'm failing to see anything that i need from a version control system that i don't already have :-) |
| 18:08 | <Hixie> | mostly i want commit, and blame. |
| 18:08 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, hey, you were already winding me up :) |
| 18:08 | <Hixie> | and diff |
| 18:08 | <Hixie> | and monotonically increasing version numbers |
| 18:08 | <Hixie> | svn gives me all that |
| 18:08 | <foolip> | Hixie: I asked mostly to find out if it was because of dependencies like web-apps-tracker, in which case I would have prioritized fixing that, but if you're happy the way things are then all is well |
| 18:08 | <Ms2ger> | git gives... blame, I guess |
| 18:08 | <Hixie> | oh and also the ability to quickly graft different parts of a repo into my directory tree |
| 18:08 | <Hixie> | svn supports that too, luckily |
| 18:09 | <Hixie> | foolip: oh, no. my build system already supports committing to multiple repos anyway, so it wouldn't be an issue for me to change the canonical one. |
| 18:10 | <Hixie> | foolip: without breaking back compat. |
| 18:10 | <foolip> | oh, ok |
| 18:11 | <foolip> | well, the mirror works for me, except when annevk makes commits and it broke :) |
| 18:11 | <foolip> | (fixed now) |
| 18:11 | <Hixie> | anne committed to the mirror? o_O |
| 18:12 | <foolip> | no, r8556 and r8557 in your repo was some test commits |
| 18:12 | <foolip> | my script broke because it only had an entry in AUTHORS for you |
| 18:13 | <Hixie> | oh hey |
| 18:13 | <Hixie> | i didn't even know anne had access to do that! |
| 18:14 | <foolip> | well, he broke your 8 year streak of commits :) |
| 18:15 | <Hixie> | hey look at that, hsivonen has access too |
| 18:15 | <Hixie> | i wonder when i gave them access :-) |
| 18:16 | <SamB> | hmm, the spoiler tag in http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/24401/so-obviously-p-np acts a bit funny WRT the hyperlink :-) |
| 18:17 | <Hixie> | looks like it was just two empty commits |
| 18:17 | <foolip> | a test.txt was added and removed. no commit message though |
| 18:18 | <Hixie> | weird |
| 18:18 | <Hixie> | says something about dreamhost tech support |
| 18:18 | <Hixie> | annevk: any idea what the story is with the test.txt file? |
| 18:21 | <TabAtkins> | SamB: <blockquote class="spoiler"> does a 'color' transition to/from transparent over .5s. But hyperlinks already have a transition rule for 'color' going over .2s, intended for a more subtle color shift when hovering. So the blockquote's 'color' rule overrides, but the a's transition wins, and you get the weird extra-fast transition. |
| 18:22 | <SamB> | oh, bonus, an explanation |
| 18:22 | <Hixie> | foolip: (did your script get invoked?) |
| 18:25 | <TabAtkins> | SamB: That's why you should do silly tricks like a color transition to 'transparent'. Use 'opacity' on the block element, like God intended, even if it means you need a wrapper element inside the spoiler element. |
| 18:26 | <TabAtkins> | s/you should/you shouldn't/ |
| 18:26 | <foolip> | Hixie: not by your ping, the last one was 2014-03-19T22:02:24.506Z |
| 18:27 | <foolip> | but I also have it as a daily cron job in case of network failures or whatever |
| 18:40 | <SamB> | TabAtkins: sigh, wrapper elements :-( |
| 18:42 | SamB | didn't even style this site, actually |
| 18:43 | <annevk-cloud> | Hixie: DH support |
| 18:56 | <Hixie> | foolip: ah, ok |
| 18:57 | <Hixie> | annevk-cloud: ? |
| 19:08 | <gsnedders> | annevk-cloud: Importantly, pushdown automata and context-free grammars are equivilient. |
| 19:09 | <gsnedders> | annevk-cloud: So if you can show no context-free grammar can express the language, it is implied there is no pushdown automaton |
| 19:11 | <SamB> | hmm, U+231B HOURGLASS is nice |
| 19:14 | <annevk> | Hixie: I contacted DreamHost support about svn timing out, I assume they ran a test... |
| 19:14 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 19:14 | <annevk> | Hixie: not timing out, not having enough space allocated to calculate a diff or some such |
| 19:14 | <Hixie> | ah, yeah, i'd already told them /tmp was full |
| 19:14 | <annevk> | Hixie: k |
| 19:19 | <SamB> | what do you have: a vhost, or a full VM? |
| 19:22 | <annevk> | Hixie: seems weird that I have commit access btw, you might want to revoke that |
| 19:22 | <annevk> | Hixie: I have no idea how DH got hold of say, the credentials... |
| 19:22 | <Hixie> | yeah... |
| 19:23 | <Hixie> | k, i revoked your account. let me know if you find a reason you had it, so i can add it back. |
| 19:36 | <annevk> | cool |
| 21:28 | <SamB> | what was the original motivation for this behaviour: http://updates.html5rocks.com/2012/09/Stacking-Changes-Coming-to-position-fixed-elements |
| 21:35 | SamB | mumbles about no decent anchors for e.g. text/plain ... |
| 21:54 | <TabAtkins> | SamB: Motivation is that fixpos is crazytimes, and allowing things in the page to sandwich between descendants of a fixpos is even more crazytimes. |
| 21:54 | <TabAtkins> | Particularly on mobile, where (a) fixpos is *extra* crazy, due to the virtual viewport, and (b) gpu resources are smaller. |
| 21:54 | <SamB> | ah, yeah, virtual viewport, right |
| 21:55 | <TabAtkins> | (b) is important, because we put fixpos things on their own gpu layer so we can scroll decently, and if things can sandwich between, we have to split the fixpos into 2 or more layers. |
| 21:55 | <SamB> | I was kind of expecting an efficiency-related answer |
| 21:55 | <TabAtkins> | Making it always a stackign context lets us always use a single layer. |
| 21:55 | <SamB> | like "saves rendering resources" |
| 21:55 | <TabAtkins> | Yup, that's basically it. |
| 21:55 | <SamB> | wasn't quite sure if that was going to be time or space though |
| 21:56 | <SamB> | same reason I don't like those background images that don't scroll |
| 21:56 | <SamB> | I want to kill them dead |
| 21:57 | <SamB> | they literally tear |
| 22:04 | <Hixie> | isn't fix pos always a stacking context per CSS2.1:E ? |
| 22:06 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Nope, not if z-index:auto |
| 22:06 | <Hixie> | huh |
| 22:07 | <Hixie> | well we should fix that |
| 23:07 | <cabanier> | TabAtkins: stacking context does not always create a gpu layer |
| 23:27 | <TabAtkins> | cabanier: No, but fixposes do. |
| 23:28 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: It is fixed, now. |