00:45
<hober>
MikeSmith: I guess I should try tmux at some point. Does it have an equivalent of screen's "nethack on"?
00:46
<hober>
MikeSmith: because you will pry "You cannot escape from window 0!" out from under my cold, dead, bloated Emacs pinky finger.
00:50
<MikeSmith>
hober: dunno what nethack on does but I suspect tmux has an equivalent. tmux also handle Unicode like 🍺 that screen fails to display
00:53
<MikeSmith>
hober: http://www.reddit.com/r/commandline/comments/1y91lz/tmux_vs_screen/
00:53
<MikeSmith>
seems it doesn't have it :-(
00:59
<MikeSmith>
man how do people read reddit on mobile
01:01
<MikeSmith>
hmm looks way better in chrome than in Firefox Nightly
01:13
<sgalineau>
man how do people read reddit at all
01:31
<zewt>
MikeSmith: ircing on couch on ios also showing glyph that I'm certain desktop irc defaulted on
01:33
<SamB>
what, this one? 🍺
02:14
<zewt>
SamB: called it http://i.imgur.com/P0oMgis.png
02:32
<zewt>
speaking of use cases for high-precision audio, https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/456620100758429697
02:37
<zewt>
http://i.imgur.com/yKIqZdS.png theonion with some more font failure
02:38
<zewt>
you can probably fingerprint the developers of websites based on which characters they assume works, if they aren't competent enough to test on more than one platform
02:38
<zewt>
(also plurals fails)
02:40
<zewt>
holy shit, youtube just used an alert()
02:41
<zewt>
(shock triggered by the fact that chrome regressed alerts and removed tab-modal alerts, putting it back into the dark ages, so I'm there clicking tabs and nothing is happening because the tab has an alert open)
02:41
<zewt>
(chrome's catastrophic regression being incomprehensibly worse than youtube's lazy alert)
02:43
<JonathanNeal>
What do any of you think about hashes like ##some+text auto-anchoring to parts of the page matching the text, ala http://sandbox.thewikies.com/autoanchor/ and http://sandbox.thewikies.com/autoanchor/##protocols
02:47
<MikeSmith>
JonathanNeal: would be nice to have some kind of way to address abitrary text or ranges in a page
02:47
<MikeSmith>
"##" is some suggested convention for doing that?
02:48
<JonathanNeal>
KevinMarks2:
02:50
<JonathanNeal>
MikeSmith: I believe so. Kevin suggested it (and Timothy Cole, in that document). I pinged him if he has thoughts to add.
02:51
<MikeSmith>
JonathanNeal: I guess you know that shepazu is following all this stuff closely
02:52
<JonathanNeal>
Honestly, I just stumbled upon it tonight. It just seemed like a great idea.
02:55
<JonathanNeal>
Like, something I would have expected on the web by now. Hey, shepazu, you’re an html5 homie, right?
03:06
<SamB>
how about them xpaths
03:08
<zewt>
xpath was cool until querySelector
03:10
<zewt>
at which point it settled to a cool level equivalent to the macarana, blue LEDs and java
03:29
<SamB>
xpath can do more the CSS selectors ...
03:30
<SamB>
s/the/than/
04:12
<JonathanNeal>
btw, https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions
05:14
<MikeSmith>
JonathanNeal: interesting
05:16
<MikeSmith>
getElementByText
05:17
<MikeSmith>
JonathanNeal: shepazu can tell you about some more sophisticated ways that existing sites that use annotations are handling this kind of addressing
05:19
<JonathanNeal>
interesting good,bad,lazy,just-interesting? Looks like we’ll just throw a prototype demo up and get feedback.
05:21
<JonathanNeal>
Related, <a href="##foo"> appears to be invalid markup “Illegal character in fragment component” adding “ Characters should be represented in NFC and spaces should be escaped as %20” — is there something more to this?
05:21
<MikeSmith>
ah
05:21
<MikeSmith>
yeah the URL spec doesn't allow fragments to contain a hash sign
05:24
<JonathanNeal>
That’s good and bad, because one concern regards sites already using ##. Googling various terms related to double hashes did not yield any results on the subject.
06:04
<zcorpan_>
MikeSmith: it appears you should also make some more links in platform.whatwg.org point to whatwg so that it doesn't look like we're not involved in web standards :-P
06:22
<TabAtkins>
SamB: XPath can do more than Selectors, but Selectors can do more than XPath. The two are roughly equivalent, but not strict subsets.
06:25
<MikeSmith>
zcorpan_: yeah I had already been meaning to change most of those
06:26
<MikeSmith>
lemme change some right now
06:27
<zcorpan_>
MikeSmith: (q.v. blink-dev; i wasn't serious but if there are links that should actually point to whatwg, go ahead)
06:31
<MikeSmith>
zcorpan_: ah yeah I haven't read up on that thread. that guy seemed a bit confused
06:32
<MikeSmith>
still I want to make the right stuff more prominent
07:33
<MikeSmith>
zcorpan: http://platform.html5.org/
07:36
<zcorpan>
MikeSmith: why are the whatwg items bigger font?
07:37
<MikeSmith>
zcorpan: to make them bigger
07:37
<MikeSmith>
and to match more closely with the size of the icon
07:37
<MikeSmith>
should I make them the same size?
07:38
<zcorpan>
yeah i think it looks a bit silly now :-)
07:38
<MikeSmith>
k
07:39
<zcorpan>
might be nice with icons for everything?
07:39
<MikeSmith>
zcorpan: should I make the whatg icon smaller to match the text?
07:39
<MikeSmith>
icons for everything?
07:39
<MikeSmith>
zcorpan: like, add a w3c icon too?
07:39
<zcorpan>
yeah
07:39
<MikeSmith>
OK
07:39
<MikeSmith>
will add it later
07:40
<zcorpan>
as for smaller icons, maybe that makes it ugly on lowres screens?
07:40
<MikeSmith>
yeah
07:40
<MikeSmith>
so I'll leave them as-is
07:40
<zcorpan>
unless you use the svg version but maybe there's no svg version for w3c/kronos/etc
07:46
<MikeSmith>
zcorpan: there is for w3c at least
07:46
<MikeSmith>
but I'll just do the bitmaps for now
07:47
<MikeSmith>
I wonder what's the latest URL for Promises?
07:48
<MikeSmith>
https://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-promise-objects I guess
07:48
<zcorpan>
yeah
08:45
<MikeSmith>
zcorpan: OK take another look now
08:46
<zcorpan>
MikeSmith: A+
08:54
<MikeSmith>
yay
08:54
<MikeSmith>
so I'll stop for now
09:05
<annevk>
MikeSmith: maybe add a link to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/DOM_XPath
09:09
<MikeSmith>
annevk: ok, added
09:12
<annevk>
MikeSmith: would be even cooler btw if the specs with their own logo...
09:14
<MikeSmith>
annevk: yeah I'd need to switch them over the svg ones I guess
09:16
<darobin>
mmmm, w3c-test.org down?
09:18
<annevk>
darobin: glad the DOM thing was a misunderstanding
09:18
<darobin>
annevk: what DOM thing?
09:19
<annevk>
darobin: ownerElement
09:19
<darobin>
oh yeah, I fucked that one up
09:20
<darobin>
I was sure it was in after the discussion in www-dom so when it didn't show up in the snapshot after the copy I assumed I'd screwed up syncing
09:21
<darobin>
I should've given myself more credit, cut and pasting is something I'm actually becoming good at
09:24
<Ms2ger>
darobin, w3c-test.org does appear down from here
09:24
<darobin>
Ms2ger: yeah, I'm looking into it
09:24
<darobin>
the server is running
09:24
<Ms2ger>
Ah, doing something useful, excellent ;)
09:25
<darobin>
mmmm, but using 8321m of memory and 50% CPU, that doesn't sound right
09:26
<darobin>
errr, MikeSmith are you on the server too?
09:27
<MikeSmith>
darobin: yeah
09:27
<darobin>
heh
09:27
<MikeSmith>
I just restarted wptserve
09:27
<Ms2ger>
MikeSmith, the phantom of the server
09:27
<darobin>
we were doing the same thing :)
09:27
<MikeSmith>
darobin: hah
09:27
<MikeSmith>
blood brothers
09:27
<darobin>
got me confused when I killall python and it matches nothing
09:27
<MikeSmith>
I beat you to the kill this time
09:28
<darobin>
lol
09:28
<darobin>
I wonder if we shouldn't have a cronjob restart the server daily
09:28
<darobin>
clearly it can get into a bad state
09:29
<darobin>
or maybe the systeam has a nice watchdog we could use
09:29
<Ms2ger>
Would be interesting to figure out what gets it into that state
09:30
<darobin>
Ms2ger: yeah, I managed to get it in a bad state on my local machine but I couldn't figure out what it was unhappy about
09:30
<darobin>
it was something about trying to write to a closed socket
09:30
<darobin>
Ms2ger: I can repro by reloading lots and lots of times brutally
09:30
<MikeSmith>
maybe it has something to do with it also writing binary data to its log
09:31
<MikeSmith>
or emitting it to the console -- stderr I guess
09:31
<darobin>
but the problem took me deep inside the python libs and I'm not proficient enough to debug that well
09:31
<MikeSmith>
we should get the webdriver folks to look at it
09:32
<darobin>
why them?
09:32
<MikeSmith>
David Burns if he has time
09:32
<darobin>
because pythonistas?
09:32
<MikeSmith>
darobin: because they have the python skills
09:32
<MikeSmith>
yeah
09:32
<darobin>
good point
09:32
<darobin>
though I thought we had Ms2ger and jgraham_ as python deities :)
09:32
<Ms2ger>
Nope
09:32
<Ms2ger>
Just jgraham
09:33
jgraham
isn't sure about deitiy
09:33
<jgraham>
But I could certainly have a go at debugging the problem if I could reproduce it
09:35
<jgraham>
Anyway, I need to catch a train
09:37
<MikeSmith>
we need some rr for wptserve
09:39
<darobin>
we could use something like https://github.com/tsenart/vegeta
10:21
<Ms2ger>
"if the W3C group truly only C&P'ed WHATWG specs, no one would be in the WGs."
10:21
<Ms2ger>
Then why are they in the WGs now?
10:26
<jgraham>
I don't think anyone *is* in the HTMLWG, at least
10:27
<jgraham>
Well I guess Microsoft are
10:27
<Ms2ger>
I think Mozilla still is
10:29
<Ms2ger>
Do you / zcorpan know if the XHR test suite is comprehensive?
10:29
<jgraham>
Well I mean people are in the group
10:30
<jgraham>
But I don't think anyone believes that the HTMLWG is a useful mechanism for getting changes into HTML
10:34
tobie_
wonders whether the overhead of discussing the WHATWG vs. W3C situation is <=, >= or == than dealing with the W3C overhead.
10:34
tobie_
ducks.
10:34
<jgraham>
quack
10:36
<jgraham>
(and I think the fact that people have just stopped participating in the W3C process should be a significant data point in answering that question)
10:37
<tobie_>
So my intent wasn't to start a discussion on that topic and add some meta-overhead.
10:37
<tobie_>
:)
10:42
<zcorpan>
Ms2ger: i'm not that familiar with the xhr testsuite but i have a feeling it has various gaps in coverage
10:44
<jgraham>
zcorpan: Do you store that response locally as "%(name)s: I'm not familiar with the %(suite_name) testsuite but I have a feeling it has various gaps in coverage"?
10:46
<zcorpan>
jgraham: i'm not that familiar with the response testsuite but i have a feeling it has various gaps in coverage
10:49
<jgraham>
darobin-- for mixing big whitespace changes with semantic changes
10:50
<darobin>
ah shit, sorry jgraham
10:50
<darobin>
I blame aryeh for using tabs in the first place :)
10:50
<jgraham>
:)
11:14
<darobin>
Ms2ger: do you know why detach() was turned into a noop?
11:14
<darobin>
I ask because it's clearly not a noop in at least Blink and WebKit (apparently not in IE either), and that's causing an awful lot of test failures
11:17
<darobin>
annevk: ^
11:17
<Ms2ger>
darobin, because it wasn't useful
11:18
<darobin>
Ms2ger: mmmmm
11:18
<Ms2ger>
I'm surprised nobody else killed it yet
11:19
<darobin>
if they did they'd pass most if not all of the range tests
11:19
<Ms2ger>
zcorpan, I should bug... Hallvors, I guess?
11:30
<Ms2ger>
"name of illusion causing proponents of a concept to see most things as that concept? e.g. webintents,annotations,cards"
11:30
<Ms2ger>
tantek, going to coin "monadism"
11:35
<jgraham>
That seems a bit like an error of the form "They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."
11:36
<annevk>
darobin: what do you mean by clearly not a noop?
11:36
<annevk>
darobin: if you mean they set a flag and threw for some methods, that doesn't necessarily make it useful
11:36
<darobin>
annevk: after you call it, trying to access various attributes throws
11:36
<darobin>
(as per DOM3)
11:37
<darobin>
yeah, I didn't say it was useful, just that it seemed to be implemented as per DOM3
11:37
<annevk>
we removed throwing because it could just be GC'd if you didn't have references
11:37
<annevk>
detach() wasn't needed for that
11:37
<jgraham>
darobin: Here's your chance to write a patch, fix Blink, get a whole load of tests to pass, and get DOM closer to Rec!
11:37
<darobin>
I wonder if other implementations might need it?
11:38
<darobin>
jgraham: yeah! or I could just write something to the effect that 97% of failures come from the fact that browsers support detach() when they shouldn't and call it a day :)
11:39
<annevk>
darobin: need it for what?
11:39
<darobin>
that said, I guess a patch removing stuff from Blink would actually be quite easy to get through the process :)
11:39
<darobin>
annevk: I'm presuming this was initially introduced due to some implementation that needed to be told what to do; I was wondering if it were possible that someone still implemented ranges in a way that made detach() useful
11:40
<darobin>
(which isn't a reason to keep it, I'm just wondering why it hasn't been killed yet)
11:40
<jgraham>
darobin: Well that might work if your only care about the spec going to Rec :p
11:40
<annevk>
darobin: Java prolly needs detach()
11:40
<darobin>
annevk: that's what I was thinking
11:40
<annevk>
we only care about JavaScript
11:40
<darobin>
jgraham: I care about many other things, but patching Blink isn't really one of them
11:40
<darobin>
apparently it's not even implemented in JS!
11:42
<annevk>
OMG IDL
11:42
<annevk>
better call Domenic_
11:44
darobin
puts on the Ghostbusters theme music
11:45
<jgraham>
annevk: Pretty sure no one uses OMG IDL these days :p
11:50
<zcorpan>
OMG OMG IDL
12:01
<jgraham>
It always confuses me when posting a branch to GitHub fails to create a review :(
12:02
<jgraham>
Maybe I should make a "git review" command
12:17
<zcorpan>
jgraham: maybe test_obj should have a .timeout() function?
12:18
<jgraham>
zcorpan: Yeah, I was thinking .force_timeout() or something
12:20
<zcorpan>
sounds good
12:30
<darobin>
jgraham: actually, I recall seeing some OMG IDL not very long ago, I forget where
12:30
<darobin>
I think it was a payment system defined with it
12:30
<darobin>
apparently it's still a thing
12:31
<darobin>
indeed, not only is the OMG still a thing, but they've also discovered animated GIFs! http://www.omg.org/
12:33
<jgraham>
I was expecting the executives looking at the laptop to start poking their own eyes out
12:34
<jgraham>
Disappointed to find it was only balloons
12:37
<zcorpan>
i like the scrolling thing
12:41
<jgraham>
I'm a big fan of the fact that the top quote is "Personally I have made many friends at the OMG"
12:41
<jgraham>
That's a strategy the W3C should adopt
12:42
<jgraham>
"W3C: Because joining us is a bit like having a social life"
12:42
<jgraham>
Maybe s/joining us/being in a working group/
12:43
jgraham
applies for the position of brand consultant
12:57
<tobie_>
Can't believe this is a thing.
13:00
<jgraham>
OMG?
13:01
<jgraham>
How did you think they got their name?
13:05
<zcorpan>
jgraham: need to leave now, assume that i've LGTMed some future change involving force_timeout() if you don't want to wait until tuesday
13:29
<MikeSmith>
fyi UK peeps: https://twitter.com/w3c/status/456772456372400128
13:40
<jgraham>
MikeSmith: Uh
13:41
<jgraham>
That appears to be "GCHQ have just joined W3C"
13:41
<jgraham>
I see no possible way this could go wrong
13:51
<MikeSmith>
keep your friends close
13:51
<MikeSmith>
as the saying goes
13:57
<Ms2ger>
jgraham, to join the Intelligence Agencies Business Group?
13:59
<beverloo>
that'd be a great forum to discuss how to not flag security issues
14:16
<jgraham>
Ms2ger: Want do review the merge in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/8241e648?review=1151 ?
14:19
<Ms2ger>
r+
14:20
<jgraham>
Ms2ger: Thanks
14:20
Ms2ger
was going to do some work this afternoon... *sigh*
15:01
<Ms2ger>
�The language does not prevent you from deeply nesting classes, but good taste should. [...] Nesting more than two levels invites a readability disaster and should probably never be attempted.�
15:02
<jgraham>
?
15:05
<SamB__>
Ms2ger: which one?
15:06
<Ms2ger>
Java
15:06
<Ms2ger>
Oh, I also can't read
15:07
<SamB>
is that talking about actual closures or just some boring namespace/protection thing?
15:15
<tantek>
Ms2ger interesting, I'll have to read up on monads and monadology.
15:15
<tantek>
there are more examples too, e.g. "triples" ;)
15:15
<tantek>
but it's particularly concerning that this illusion pattern appears to repeat itself just in web technology circles so often
15:17
<tantek>
also, there seems to be some consensus that it's a form of confirmation bias, in particular a type of Maslow's hammer. See replies here: https://twitter.com/t/status/456552583499243521
15:29
<annevk>
Ms2ger: where is that from?
15:29
<Domenic_>
MikeSmith: platform.html5.org is really excellent now. I like how it links to EDs for the W3C things too.
15:30
<annevk>
MikeSmith: http://simonsapin.github.io/data-urls/ is the latest we have on data URLs
15:31
<SimonSapin>
It’s more a collection of open issues than anything else
15:45
<tantek>
also, this article from that thread has a lot of applicability in many web platform discussions: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html - so many architecture astronauts
16:15
<MikeSmith>
Domenic_: Thanks
16:16
<MikeSmith>
annevk: didn't know about that one
16:16
MikeSmith
looks
16:52
<Domenic_>
hehehe https://twitter.com/antimattur/status/456835404596252673
16:59
<JonathanNeal>
MikeSmith, ready ready for some in the wild testing of fragmentions?
17:05
<MikeSmith>
JonathanNeal: you win
17:06
MikeSmith
and JonathanNeal are playing "Best spring-break pickup lines"
17:07
<JonathanNeal>
Oh we are? I plan on observing Good Friday. If you’re free, let’s make it a GREAT Friday!
17:18
JonathanNeal
listens to the crickets, but still thinks it was clever.
17:19
<jsbell>
that feeling when you haven't settled into a new workflow and you feel like a t-rex in a china shop
17:25
<JonathanNeal>
jsbell: that does sound kind of awesome though. Like, those plates don’t stand a chance.
17:25
<jsbell>
Rawr! Whoops, sorry. Let me pick that up. Oh, wait, useless arms.
17:29
<JonathanNeal>
Tea, Rex?
17:31
<jgraham>
jsbell: Do you want help with something, or are you just happily complaining?
17:31
<jsbell>
jgraham: Just happily complaining. :)
17:32
<Domenic_>
annevk: FYI I think I'm going to do a "how to make subclassable APIs" guide. I feel like we've talked about related topics a lot. https://github.com/w3ctag/subclassable-apis-guide/issues
17:35
<annevk>
Domenic_: one thing that'd be interested is considering the impact on the current APIs
17:35
<annevk>
interesting*
19:06
<IZh>
Hi.
19:27
<KevinMarks>
The difference in what can be in a URL fragment and what can be in an id is interesting
19:29
<annevk>
KevinMarks: you mean given that a fragment is a sequence of bytes and an ID is a string?
19:30
<KevinMarks>
A fragment can encode anything with percent encoding, but an id can't have spaces
19:32
<KevinMarks>
So the fragmention idea could just be "if the fragment contains whitespace, search body text rather than ids"
19:33
KevinMarks
has the terminology wrong there.
19:34
<annevk>
data:text/html,<style id="x x">head,:target{display:block;height:20em}:target{background:purple}</style>#x x
19:34
<annevk>
does seem to work
19:35
<annevk>
restrictions on IDs are mostly so they can appear space-separated elsewhere I suppose
20:47
<JonathanNeal>
annevk, is this related to fragmentions?
21:58
<benschwarz>
Hixie: yt?
22:17
<jgraham>
jsbell: I'm not sure why you created a new review, but I think we're nearly there
22:18
<jsbell>
jgraham: heh, was just gonna ping. since I wasn't in a branch a merge got in there and critic stopped tracking (and wouldn't start again when I poked it)
22:20
<jgraham>
jsbell: Oh, the merge shouldn't have upset it (although it is unorthodox), but a rebase will (although it is more normal; there are just a few manual steps)
22:21
<benschwarz>
annevk: someone left an issue on developers.whatwg.org asking if they could translate it to chinese…
22:22
<jsbell>
jgraham: I'm sure I poked the wrong button somehow. Then flattened it down to a diff and reapplied. And obviously mucked that up. *sigh* Anyway... updated.
22:23
<annevk>
benschwarz: sounds good, no?
22:23
<jgraham>
jsbell: And we're done! Thanks for the patch
22:23
<annevk>
benschwarz: although might be a bit tricky keeping it up to date
22:24
<jsbell>
Also, no longer filtering mail from critic into /dev/null :P
22:25
<jsbell>
jgraham: If I was gonna add some encoding API tests, any preference for where in web-platform-tests ?
22:25
<jgraham>
jsbell: Well that's a seperate spec so a new top level directory
22:25
<jgraham>
/encoding/ or something I guess
22:26
<jsbell>
jgraham: In blink we have encoding/ for general (e.g. fetch/form/document) encoding tests and encoding/api for the API specifically. How's that sound?
22:29
<jgraham>
jsbell: So the normal convention is to have the subdirectories (if any) match the spec sections so that we can easilly tell which sections have some tests
22:29
<jgraham>
(specifically to have the name match the id of the heading element)
22:30
<jgraham>
so enconding/api for API tests looks right
22:30
<jsbell>
jgraham: groovy.
22:37
<annevk>
Domenic_++
22:48
<benschwarz>
annevk: do you know of any other efforts for translation that have occurred?
22:48
<benschwarz>
it'd be an epic job
22:48
<annevk>
benschwarz: could ask @myakura
22:49
<annevk>
benschwarz: he has done some work on that years ago iirc
22:56
<zewt>
annevk: heh, the #x x thing puts "#x x" in <body> in chrome but not in firefox (but treats it as a hash in both)
22:57
<zewt>
different parsing of data:?
22:57
<annevk>
Chrome has a bug