| 00:05 | <TabAtkins> | Happy to help get terminology confluence. |
| 01:10 | <SamB> | TabAtkins: does HTML5 emit the appropriate deprecation warnings? |
| 01:10 | <SamB> | or, yeah, fatal error haha |
| 01:11 | <TabAtkins> | No, I don't do anything fancy with biblio refs. |
| 01:11 | <TabAtkins> | Though I probably should. |
| 05:22 | <MikeSmith> | cabanier: fyi see my review comments on that addHitRegion test https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomments?review=1239&filter=all |
| 05:23 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: saw it |
| 05:23 | <MikeSmith> | yeah I wish I hadn't merged that |
| 05:23 | <MikeSmith> | well, I guess it's not a bad test |
| 05:23 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, if he's not keen on updating it, I'll do it myself |
| 05:24 | <MikeSmith> | but regardless the source for it needs to be in the yaml file with the sources for the other tests |
| 05:24 | <MikeSmith> | cabanier: btw thanks for your other canvas tests and merges |
| 05:25 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: np. The WebKit people want me to fix their IDL compiler instead of just patching the code so it passes the tests |
| 05:25 | <MikeSmith> | oh geez |
| 05:26 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: I hope that won't suck up too much time... |
| 05:26 | <MikeSmith> | cabanier: that's a lot of work man |
| 05:26 | <MikeSmith> | well I think it will |
| 05:26 | <MikeSmith> | but I hope it won't :-) |
| 05:26 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: it's actually not so bad. I already fixed the compiler but I worry that I'm now changing the behavior of dozens of interfaces |
| 05:26 | <MikeSmith> | oh |
| 05:27 | <MikeSmith> | well it would be nice to have it fixed |
| 05:27 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: yes |
| 05:27 | <MikeSmith> | if the current behavior of those interfaces is not conformannt, better to break it as early as possible rather than later |
| 05:27 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: yeah |
| 05:27 | <MikeSmith> | I would think |
| 05:28 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: I'm finding a lot of issues where the wrong exception is thrown, or not thrown at all |
| 05:30 | <MikeSmith> | cabanier: good that you're finding those, but sad that nobody else has taken time to do it yet so you now get stuck with it |
| 05:31 | <cabanier> | yeah |
| 05:31 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: I hope to get it in before Safari forks |
| 05:31 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: otherwise it's an another year before it would update |
| 05:44 | <MikeSmith> | cabanier: by "before Safari forks" you mean before the branch for the next release? |
| 05:44 | <cabanier> | MikeSmith: yes |
| 05:44 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 06:19 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: fwiw i think anolis doesn't do [[foo]] except if you give a flag like --enable-w3c-crazy-substitutions or some such |
| 06:34 | <zcorpan> | speaking of empty content model, doesn't the spec in fact allow whitespace and comments (and PIs) for "empty"? |
| 06:36 | <zcorpan> | "Inter-element whitespace, comment nodes, and processing instruction nodes must be ignored when establishing whether an element's contents match the element's content model or not" |
| 06:36 | <SamB> | zcorpan: if it's possible to parse them that way, sure ... |
| 06:37 | <SamB> | so not exactly for <img> in HTML syntax |
| 06:37 | <zcorpan> | SamB: what do you mean? |
| 06:37 | <zcorpan> | oh ok |
| 06:37 | <zcorpan> | well you could create the DOM with script and forget about the syntax |
| 06:37 | <SamB> | true |
| 06:39 | <zcorpan> | so a definition of "empty" that reminds the above exception might actually be good to have |
| 06:39 | <zcorpan> | Hixie: ^ |
| 07:21 | <MikeSmith> | who was it that was reminding us other day that it's a bad idea to create new specs that load the precious first bytes of our documents down with yet more stuff? https://docs.google.com/document/d/17jg1RRL3RI969cLwbKBIcoGDsPwqaEdBxafGNYGwiY4/edit |
| 07:23 | <MikeSmith> | do I read correctly that requires each document instance to have |
| 07:24 | <MikeSmith> | ... both a new meta@name element and a new link@rel element |
| 07:26 | <MikeSmith> | with a new content attribute whose value the UA has parse and that's an arbitrarily long list of arbitrarily long selector expressions |
| 09:37 | <zcorpan> | anyone know what happened to hspace/vspace on table in gecko? http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2984 looks like it's not supported anymore but https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=725646 is not FIXED yet |
| 09:43 | <zcorpan> | http://www.browserstack.com/screenshots/2b6be040b79a037b7d05c52f555295e5828762cf ... |
| 09:44 | <zcorpan> | oh only quirks mode |
| 09:51 | <MikeSmith> | I like the aggressive "Standardization plan" in https://docs.google.com/document/d/17jg1RRL3RI969cLwbKBIcoGDsPwqaEdBxafGNYGwiY4/edit#heading=h.tndapzbk8g3p |
| 13:30 | <Domenic_> | MikeSmith: it was slightlyoff |
| 13:31 | <annevk> | https://twitter.com/PointedEars2/status/462218792576499714 o_O |
| 13:32 | <darobin> | annevk: never argue with trolls/idiots/etc — people might not know the difference |
| 13:34 | <Ms2ger> | They'll pull you down to their level and beat you on experience? |
| 13:34 | <darobin> | damn right |
| 13:34 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 13:35 | <MikeSmith> | Domenic_: yeah I know, it was more of rhetorical question :-) |
| 13:35 | <Domenic_> | Haha OK, just woke up, rhetorical devices are too subtle for me right now... |
| 13:37 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 13:38 | <Domenic_> | Interesting. Do they really think the only part of this that needs standardization is the rel types? |
| 13:42 | <MikeSmith> | Domenic_: I reckon they know better. I think they just need to add more detail to that section yet |
| 13:42 | <MikeSmith> | or I hope that's the case at least |
| 13:42 | <Ms2ger> | Ah, MikeSmith, the eternal optimist |
| 13:43 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: that's me to a T |
| 13:43 | <MikeSmith> | photo of me being optimistic: http://goo.gl/5uUnK |
| 13:50 | <tobie__> | darobin: these look like issues with the WebIDL parser rather than syntax issues, am I right? |
| 13:50 | <tobie__> | https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/259 |
| 13:53 | <tobie__> | ^ pointedears reminds of comp.lang.javascript. He was already trolling back then. |
| 13:56 | <jgraham> | tobie__: On an entirely different topic, I think to get the documentation for testharness and so on onto testthewebforward.org we will need to move away from using GitHub-Pages directly (but can still use Jekyll). This is because GHP doesn't support any kind of useful include mechanism. What we want is basically http://octopress.org/docs/plugins/render-partial/ |
| 13:57 | <jgraham> | So we could do something like {% render_partial ../_resources/testharness.js/docs/api.md %} |
| 13:57 | <tobie__> | oh... |
| 13:58 | <tobie__> | includes don't let you do that/ |
| 13:58 | <tobie__> | ? |
| 13:58 | <tobie__> | (I guess they're scoped to the include folder) |
| 13:58 | <jgraham> | Yeah, they seem to be scoped |
| 13:59 | <tobie__> | (sounds like a wise thing to do) |
| 13:59 | <tobie__> | yeah works for me. |
| 13:59 | <tobie__> | Can we still get auto-deploy? |
| 14:00 | <jgraham> | I'm not sure. I think you will have to build locally, push, and it will deploy |
| 14:00 | <jgraham> | aiui Domenic_ uses this setup |
| 14:01 | <tobie__> | mmm. |
| 14:01 | <tobie__> | that sucks. |
| 14:01 | <darobin> | tobie__: yes, and these are all easy fixes too |
| 14:01 | <darobin> | feel free to file |
| 14:02 | <tobie__> | darobin: ok |
| 14:02 | <tobie__> | happy to look over it if you have pointers. |
| 14:02 | <tobie__> | it's a blocker for me atm |
| 14:04 | <tobie__> | darobin: filed https://github.com/darobin/webidl2.js/issues/5 |
| 14:04 | <tobie__> | jgraham: concerned about the lack of auto-deploy feature. |
| 14:05 | <tobie__> | jgraham: could we have a script or something to help? |
| 14:05 | <tobie__> | if not, please check with rhauck before you go ahead. |
| 14:05 | <jgraham> | tobie__: So I don't know exactly what the situation is, I haven't used either GitHub-Pages or Octopress before |
| 14:06 | <tobie__> | k |
| 14:06 | <jgraham> | But of course I don't plan to change anything without agreement that it's an improvement |
| 14:06 | <tobie__> | you can't have a special build of jekyll on gh-pages |
| 14:07 | <tobie__> | so if you want to add stuff, you;re effectively loosing the auto-deploy feature (you have to build locally and push the static files only) |
| 14:07 | <jgraham> | http://octopress.org/docs/deploying/github/ |
| 14:07 | <tobie__> | that said, you can build a script that does it for you (listens to changes on master, builds, and pushes to gh-pages) |
| 14:08 | <tobie__> | jgraham: right |
| 14:08 | tobie__ | running out. back later. |
| 14:09 | <jgraham> | Yeah, I think it's worth fixing the deploy issue to get the docs in sync with upstream |
| 14:23 | <annevk> | darobin: "Wants to keep the web in the Dark Ages" makes for a cool Twitter bio |
| 14:24 | <darobin> | annevk: heck yay! I'd totally go for it man |
| 14:24 | <darobin> | I'm almost jealous there |
| 14:25 | <Ms2ger> | Let's just drop that "almost" |
| 14:26 | <darobin> | hahaha |
| 14:40 | <MikeSmith> | "Wants to bomb the Web back into the Stone Age" would be even better |
| 14:47 | <Ms2ger> | He's not American |
| 14:56 | <Domenic_> | jgraham: tobie__: you could also use travis CI to run the deploy |
| 14:56 | <Domenic_> | use it as a post-commit hook to run the appropriate script |
| 14:57 | <Domenic_> | use the encrypted credentials feature to include necessary keys for pushing to gh-pages |
| 18:34 | <Hixie> | foolip: i'm surprised that browsers append attributes to elements as they're parsing the attributes, since that means that they are likely creating redundant elements. |
| 18:34 | <Hixie> | foolip: for example, if you're parsing <isindex foo=bar>, then you need to pass a token with {start tag, name:isindex, attirubtes: foo=bar} to the tree construction, which then doesn't create an "isindex" element |
| 19:53 | <Hixie> | does canPlayType() return a: state, kind, mode, reason, rule, or type |
| 19:53 | <Hixie> | maybe it's a new thing, a result |
| 20:21 | <Domenic_> | can people actually use canPlayType()? Doesn't it return things like "maybe"? |
| 20:23 | <Domenic_> | vine.co uses mediaelement.js which uses it like so: https://github.com/johndyer/mediaelement/blob/master/src/js/me-featuredetection.js#L37-L44 |
| 20:23 | <zewt> | an api that returns "maybe" and "probably" would have to be in the running for least usable api ever |
| 20:24 | <jgraham> | Well it's honest |
| 20:24 | <zewt> | (doesn't look like a very realistic api input, either--video files often have alternative data formats, so a list of codecs used by the file doesn't tell you much) |
| 20:24 | <zewt> | (no doubt that's a partial cause of the silly results...) |
| 20:25 | <jgraham> | The point is that the browser generally doesn't know if the media framework will actually be able to play the video without trying to play it |
| 20:25 | <zewt> | (i assume the main cause is that you also need to know things like the encoding profile, not just the codec) |
| 20:25 | <zewt> | my parenthetical quota has been exceeded |
| 20:25 | <Domenic_> | mediaelement's optional "source chooser" plugin uses it like so: https://github.com/johndyer/mediaelement/blob/666b6adaea247a5f7dd1b788190a100daa4f26a3/src/js/mep-feature-sourcechooser.js#L53-L55 |
| 20:26 | <Domenic_> | vine.co doesn't use that |
| 20:26 | <zewt> | yeah the only meaningful result is the "definitely can't" one i guess |
| 20:27 | jgraham | marks zewt down as "not a lisp programmer" |
| 20:27 | <Hixie> | there are far more useless APIs in the web platform than canPlayType |
| 20:27 | <zewt> | it's a competitive field |
| 20:28 | <Hixie> | in other news, i just typed "</dfn>" when trying to write "</span>" |
| 20:28 | <Hixie> | blimey |
| 20:28 | <Domenic_> | I remember a long time ago reading an interview with Hixie where he was talking about all the vestigial things. I think the useless pushState argument was near the top of his list? Anyway it was refreshing honesty for someone new to all this. |
| 20:28 | <Domenic_> | ("long time" ~ "a year"?) |
| 20:29 | <zewt> | the title argument? |
| 20:29 | <zewt> | (if I want to set the title too, I'll ... just set the title) |
| 20:30 | <Domenic_> | "... which leads to APIs that make no sense, like pushState(), which has a required argument that is ignored." |
| 20:30 | <Domenic_> | http://html5doctor.com/interview-with-ian-hickson-html-editor/ |
| 20:31 | <zewt> | none of the arguments are ignored, right? |
| 20:32 | <Domenic_> | Firefox ignores title |
| 20:33 | <Domenic_> | Spec says: "Note: The title is purely advisory. User agents might use the title in the user interface." |
| 20:33 | <Hixie> | the title argument is ignored by everyone |
| 20:33 | <Hixie> | it's the saddest thing |
| 20:34 | <Domenic_> | Do you think the spec should be more explicit about that? |
| 20:34 | <Domenic_> | I guess the argument is they could put it in some session history UI |
| 20:34 | <Domenic_> | But they definitely shouldn't change document.title |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | they should put it in some session history UI |
| 20:38 | <zewt> | if it was guaranteed to be ignored, i could say pushState(null, null, url) instead of pushState(null, document.title, url) ... 95% of the time the URL is all I want to change anyway |
| 20:39 | <zewt> | that said, i'm sure i've used the title argument expecting it to change the title at some point, and if that works in some browsers and is ignored in others, that's obviously bad |
| 20:41 | <Domenic_> | i think it should be a normative requirement that it doesn't change the same things document.title changes |
| 20:41 | <Domenic_> | to avoid your overcaution |
| 20:42 | <zewt> | sorry, my what? :) |
| 20:42 | <Ms2ger> | Your caution |
| 21:17 | <tobie__> | Domenic_: smart suggestion re relying on Travis CI |
| 21:34 | <cuauhtemoc> | hey |
| 22:09 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: fyi, the tokeniser tests don't check any of the script data states, or the cadatasection state |
| 22:37 | <zewt> | dear firefox stop letting tabs steal focus with alert() |
| 22:37 | <zewt> | granted chrome is now even worse than firefox with modals, back in the dark ages |
| 22:43 | <zewt> | wow, chrome alerts are even more broken than I knew |
| 22:44 | <zewt> | if one *window* has an alert open, focusing another browser window (not tab) lets me access that tab (if it's a different origin), but browser chrome is wedged (can't change tabs or access the address bar), and if I switch to another window that shares a context with the one with an alert open, the other browser window is completely frozen |