| 02:32 | <MikeSmith> | so I see that Service Worker is a dependency for the draft Geofencing API https://gist.github.com/mkruisselbrink/ea833f70041ab3c2aa69#file-explainer-md |
| 06:19 | <zcorpan> | krijnhoetmer: could you annotate quit/join/rename lines with a class on the server side so that incremental rendering works better? |
| 07:10 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: the Ⓐ annotation in http://es5.github.io/ should use http://javascript.spec.whatwg.org/ |
| 07:23 | <zcorpan> | mathiasbynens: where is http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Web_ECMAScript#Identifiers covered in http://javascript.spec.whatwg.org ? |
| 07:23 | <zcorpan> | or is htat part of the ES spec now? |
| 07:30 | <mathiasbynens> | zcorpan: it’s being removed from the platform \o/ |
| 07:30 | <zcorpan> | mathiasbynens: oh. sweet |
| 07:31 | <mathiasbynens> | Opera/Carakan: https://bugs.opera.com/browse/CORE-47441 (DSK-369398) |
| 07:31 | <mathiasbynens> | Chrome/V8: http://code.google.com/p/v8/issues/detail?id=2222 |
| 07:31 | <mathiasbynens> | Safari/JavaScriptCore: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90678 |
| 07:31 | <mathiasbynens> | Firefox (discussion): https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=744784 |
| 07:31 | <mathiasbynens> | Spec bug: https://bugs.ecmascript.org/show_bug.cgi?id=277 |
| 07:33 | <karlcow> | mathiasbynens: search "use and xlink in svg" |
| 07:33 | <karlcow> | hmmm slow bot! pfff |
| 07:33 | karlcow | who thought I had discovered the universal Web tech search engine ;) |
| 07:34 | <zcorpan> | mathiasbynens: should the moz bug be closed? |
| 07:37 | <annevk> | I guess we should wait on other engines to fix their bugs |
| 07:39 | <annevk> | Well, actually, I'll close it |
| 08:07 | <Manishearth> | Hixie_: there? |
| 08:07 | <Manishearth> | (or Ms2ger) |
| 08:07 | <Ms2ger> | Here |
| 08:07 | <Manishearth> | http://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#dom-node-textcontent is nullable |
| 08:07 | <Ms2ger> | Yes |
| 08:08 | <Manishearth> | http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/semantics.html#dom-a-text is not |
| 08:08 | <Ms2ger> | It can return null |
| 08:08 | <Manishearth> | but a.text is supposed to mirror node.textcontent |
| 08:08 | <Ms2ger> | But not for elements |
| 08:08 | <Manishearth> | d'oh |
| 08:08 | <Ms2ger> | You can wrap in Some on the way in, and unwrap() on the way out |
| 08:08 | <Manishearth> | Ms2ger: I guess https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/6b88d82c?review=2348 shouldn't be Throws then |
| 08:09 | <Manishearth> | just an unreachable!() |
| 08:09 | <Manishearth> | or an unwrap |
| 08:09 | Ms2ger | looks |
| 08:09 | <Ms2ger> | That's correct |
| 08:09 | <Ms2ger> | (Yay, someone's picking reviews off my todo list :)) |
| 08:09 | <Manishearth> | Ms2ger: first review my getters one ;) |
| 08:10 | <Ms2ger> | Dammit you :) |
| 08:10 | <Ms2ger> | bbiab |
| 08:11 | <jgraham> | Manishearth: See now you scared the Ms2ger |
| 08:15 | <Manishearth> | haha |
| 08:18 | <Manishearth> | Ms2ger: we also have SetterThrows for Node.textContent, which doesn't seem necessary. Hm |
| 08:22 | <jgraham> | Manishearth: Yeah it doesn't sound like it should throw |
| 08:22 | <jgraham> | The servo DOM being buggy isn't exactly a surprise though |
| 08:24 | <Manishearth> | jgraham: nodeValue throws too. I shall investigate |
| 08:28 | <kriskowal> | based on a couple of Domenic’s observations, i’ve done another sketch on promise-based streams |
| 08:28 | <kriskowal> | this time more closely analogous to Promise, with the revealing constructor returning the output side and passing the methods of the input as args of the setup function |
| 08:29 | <kriskowal> | and now 100% symmetric. both the input and output stream are the same prototype. |
| 08:29 | <kriskowal> | sketch http://kriskowal.github.io/gtor/docs/stream |
| 08:29 | <kriskowal> | and spec https://github.com/kriskowal/gtor/blob/master/test/stream-test.js |
| 08:29 | <kriskowal> | pardon, i mean test. |
| 08:30 | <kriskowal> | cc annevk TabAtkins JakeA |
| 08:35 | <JakeA> | Interesting. Is this an alternative to the current streams proposal or sugar on top? |
| 08:35 | <kriskowal> | this is independent |
| 08:35 | <kriskowal> | could go either way, i suppose |
| 08:37 | <kriskowal> | this is a level of abstraction that i hope will at least be available to work with streams |
| 08:37 | <kriskowal> | particularly request and response bodies |
| 08:38 | <kriskowal> | to be clear, i would like Request and Response to be able to recognize iterators and promise iterators, of which this is one example |
| 08:38 | <kriskowal> | for the body |
| 08:39 | tyoshino______ | looking |
| 08:39 | <kriskowal> | apart from the utility of being able to use more specific kinds of iterables (e.g., array of strings), i believe async generators should also return promise iterators |
| 08:40 | <jgraham> | Manishearth: So it isn't possible to get travis to do dependent jobs? e.g. make a build in one job and then use the binary in a second? |
| 08:41 | <kriskowal> | i expect promise iterators will become a streaming lingua franca |
| 08:41 | <kriskowal> | JakeA ^ |
| 08:44 | <annevk> | kriskowal: when you say "A stream is a promise iterator and a promise generator." is that analogous to "A promise is an asynchronous value getter and an asynchronous value setter."? |
| 08:45 | <kriskowal> | absolutely |
| 08:45 | <JakeA> | The API works for me, but I can't say I'm up to date on the latest streams spec for comparison. |
| 08:45 | <kriskowal> | well, to be clear, a promise is an asynchronous getter, a resolver is an asynchronous setter |
| 08:46 | <kriskowal> | a stream can be used either as an asynchronous iterator or generator |
| 08:46 | <kriskowal> | since they’re symmetric |
| 08:47 | <annevk> | I like the API and I was hoping we'd end up with something like that |
| 08:47 | <kriskowal> | JakeA: the current stream spec focuses on a lower level, catering specifically to hooking into system level streams |
| 08:47 | <annevk> | As far as I can tell we do not have something like that because of performance, but it's not clear whether those concerns are valid |
| 08:49 | <kriskowal> | yeah. burden of proof is on me to figure out how to make this interface perform well for byte streams |
| 08:58 | <annevk> | http://www.gliffy.com/go/publish/6040024 is just o_O |
| 08:58 | <annevk> | kriskowal: I hope both sides feel pressure since a much better API is worth something too |
| 08:59 | <kriskowal> | yeah, and low level stream api’s can get mired in byzantine state machines as well |
| 09:00 | <kriskowal> | it’s a hard problem |
| 09:00 | <annevk> | tyoshino______: does that link help? I wasn't sure that linking to public-webapps would help; there's also discussion on public-webappsec sometimes and even other places, but I don't necessarily want to discourage all that fragmentation |
| 09:17 | <annevk> | "In terms of vision, Sam isn't planning on coming to the TAG with a set agenda, but will seek to find ways to address a disturbing trend he has seen whereby prioritization has been in favor of specifiers (often arguing for theoretical purity!) over implementers over authors over users. He believes that the correct ordering is the opposite: http://www.w3.org/TR/html-design-principles/#priority-of-constituencies " |
| 09:17 | <annevk> | from http://www.w3.org/2014/08/01-tag-nominations.html |
| 09:17 | <annevk> | First I hear of this, anyone has context? |
| 09:23 | <kriskowal> | i met sam once at TC-39 in 2009 |
| 09:24 | <kriskowal> | i believe he was pushing for internationalization for IBM but wasn’t getting traction at the time |
| 09:24 | <kriskowal> | oh, no it was bigint |
| 09:27 | <kriskowal> | i could see that argument applied in that context, from his perspective. the effort to introduce Decimal now depends on Brendan’s value type idea, all these years later. |
| 09:29 | <annevk> | I think Sam wanted decimal |
| 09:29 | <annevk> | http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/07/11/Decimal-in-ECMAScript |
| 09:30 | <annevk> | http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/2008/08/27/ES-Decimal-Updates |
| 09:32 | <annevk> | I guess TC39 can count itself "lucky" that no platform APIs were designed to deal with decimal as happened with bytes |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | But yeah, in the context of TC39 that makes a lot of sense |
| 09:33 | <annevk> | But W3C is not TC39 |
| 09:35 | <kriskowal> | perhaps TC39’s luck is about to dry up on that front :P |
| 10:23 | <annevk> | In DOM, I'm going to rebrand "node is removed" and "node is inserted" as "removing steps" and "insertion steps", to make them similar to "cloning steps" and "adopting steps" |
| 10:24 | <annevk> | As well as passing them the arguments they need and fixing bugs in NodeIterator |
| 10:25 | <jgraham> | Algorithm names in the -ing form seems pretty horrid |
| 10:31 | <annevk> | Don't really want to rename adopting/cloning at this point |
| 12:36 | <foolip> | annevk: why does navigation invoke fully exit fullscreen again? it doesn't seem to do that in Chromium, and I'm not sure why it should... |
| 12:37 | <foolip> | having a presentation where you open different sites in iframes doesn't seem crazy, for example |
| 13:09 | <Manishearth> | jgraham: Nope. We manage that for Rust snapshots by havign two repos and uploading the binaries. |
| 13:09 | <Manishearth> | I've proposed a system where Travis can split into more VMs *after* the build step (before testing) |
| 13:26 | <annevk> | foolip: roc was afraid of spoofing I think |
| 13:26 | <annevk> | foolip: it might be about navigating the top-level browsing context only? |
| 13:28 | <jgraham> | Manishearth: Proposed to whom? The Travis people? |
| 13:29 | <caitp> | they'd probably be happy to do that for you, they seem to be very happy to try new things with docker |
| 13:29 | <Manishearth> | jgraham: yeah. There's some internal discussions too that I don't know much about but Lars is saying something about that in #servo |
| 13:29 | <jgraham> | Manishearth: seems like a CI system that can't do that is only going to be suitable for tiny projects |
| 13:30 | <caitp> | well it's mostly catering to ruby/python/js apps |
| 13:31 | <jgraham> | Yeah, we might well not be their target audience |
| 13:31 | <annevk> | Oh, I missed this happened: http://www.w3.org/2014/Process-20140801/ |
| 13:31 | <jgraham> | I'm not really sure why servo started using Travis in the first place, unless it was just that Mozilla releng were overstretched |
| 13:32 | <caitp> | probably the same reason they started hosting projects on github; convenience |
| 13:32 | <jgraham> | The convenience of github is debatable :p |
| 13:32 | <Manishearth> | jgraham: Yeah, their target audience are people where "build" is the same as "run" |
| 13:32 | <jgraham> | (the attraction of it is more familiarity to potential contributers, which doesn't apply to the CI system) |
| 13:33 | <zcorpan> | <a style="color:black" href="http://yandex.com"><span |
| 13:33 | <zcorpan> | style="color: red;">Y</span>andex</a>—<a style="color:black" href="http://yandex.ru"><span |
| 13:33 | <zcorpan> | style="color: red;">Я</span>ндекс</a> |
| 13:33 | <Manishearth> | When I proposed it they seemed to think I wanted to split up the VM after installing deps ;) |
| 13:33 | <foolip> | annevk: maybe, it's in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#traverse-the-history-by-a-delta |
| 13:33 | <caitp> | that's what the convenience is, really |
| 13:34 | <annevk> | foolip: that's always triggered |
| 13:34 | <caitp> | but I'm not going to sit here and justify the use of github, onto more interesting things today :< |
| 13:34 | <annevk> | foolip: talk with roc? |
| 13:34 | <foolip> | annevk: looks like that only applies to go(), back() and forward(), am I missing something? |
| 13:34 | <jgraham> | I really wish someone would make a viable competitor to github; it's pretty obvious that we're all suffering from their near-monopoly position |
| 13:34 | <foolip> | annevk: ok :) |
| 13:34 | <Ms2ger> | jgraham, yeah, definitely releng being overstretched |
| 13:35 | <annevk> | foolip: step 5 of navigate (named navigated) also invokes it |
| 13:35 | <annevk> | zcorpan: yeah, noticed that |
| 13:36 | <foolip> | annevk: "If a task queued by the traverse the history by a delta algorithm is running" doesn't actually invoke it AFAICT |
| 13:36 | <annevk> | oh sorry, I'll look again |
| 13:37 | <Manishearth> | jgraham: So it started off with me just tinkering with Travis and trying to get it to do snapshots because compiling rustc took forever for me, and I used to mess up with git so sometimes I'd end up compiling it 3-4 times because it kept clobbering itself. Later I decided to get it on Travis as an experiment, though I got blocked by an ICE. And then finally releng got overstretched and wpt was blocked on pypi and all that, so I and Lars worke |
| 13:38 | <Manishearth> | I find Travis better than buildbot fwiw. But if either one could get VM forking, that would be awesome |
| 13:38 | <annevk> | foolip: not sure now |
| 13:39 | <foolip> | it doesn't seem to add up |
| 13:39 | <caitp> | honestly I'm pretty sure they'd work with you guys on that |
| 13:39 | <caitp> | especially if mozilla wants to pay Travis for the multitudes of repos on github |
| 13:39 | <foolip> | additionally, Blink/WebKit actually does fully exit fullscreen for window.open, which seems outside of what's spec'd |
| 13:39 | <annevk> | foolip: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18840 |
| 13:39 | <foolip> | might make sense though? |
| 13:45 | <jgraham> | Manishearth: Well I'm hoping that the replacement for buildbot is better, but I think that travis is one of these things that is likely good when your needs are small but might not scale to more complex scenarios |
| 13:46 | <Manishearth> | jgraham: Yeah. Though it probably wouldn't be too hard to just use Travis on the build slaves and tweak it for what we need |
| 13:47 | <Manishearth> | However, the Travis people are implementing goodies for us anyway, so it makes some sense to just go ahead with it |
| 13:47 | <jgraham> | Sure, I'm not arguing it doesn't make sense for now |
| 13:48 | <jgraham> | Like I say, hopefully TaskCluster eventually becomes a thing and we can implement our testing infrastructure in a way that is very flexible and low-latency |
| 13:52 | <foolip> | annevk: filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26584 |
| 13:55 | <Manishearth> | jgraham: We should inject some stuff into Firefox that makes everyone part of our botnet and then use the botnet for CI |
| 13:56 | Manishearth | thinks up more devious plans |
| 13:56 | <Ms2ger> | We can just make Fx mine bitcoins and pay build people with them |
| 13:57 | <caitp> | finally after 2 decades, mozilla has a business model |
| 13:57 | <jgraham> | Hmm? |
| 13:58 | <jgraham> | Mozilla has a business model already… I guess you can debate how good it is, but I would bet it will work better than mining bitcoins :) |
| 13:59 | <caitp> | it's a joke jgraham |
| 13:59 | <caitp> | that's the joke |
| 14:00 | <jgraham> | I guess :) "How does Mozilla make any money" quickly becomes the sort of question that becomes so tedious you wish someone would just distribute a pamphlet to avoid answering it again |
| 14:02 | <Manishearth> | Ms2ger: next time I get asked where Mozilla gets money from I'm using that as an answer |
| 14:02 | <Manishearth> | ;P |
| 14:03 | <Ms2ger> | Manishearth, eh |
| 14:03 | <Ms2ger> | Manishearth, why not "Oh, we hacked a bitcoin miner into Chrome"? :) |
| 14:03 | <Manishearth> | hahaha even better |
| 14:03 | <Ms2ger> | That's why Google pays us so much |
| 14:03 | caitp | can't wait to see that headline in Wired |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | www-tag o_O |
| 14:27 | Ms2ger | gets popcorn |
| 14:28 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, it's Adam |
| 14:31 | <jgraham> | "numerous attorneys" |
| 14:32 | <jgraham> | Because with lawyers it's really the number that you spam that is the important thing. |
| 14:54 | <SamB__> | jgraham: couldn't they just publish an FAQ on the website? |
| 15:02 | <annevk> | antimattur <3 |
| 15:18 | <JakeA> | annevk: Does http://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#headers need a .keys() method, or is there some other way to get the headers? |
| 15:19 | <annevk> | JakeA: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26102 |
| 15:19 | <JakeA> | cool |
| 15:19 | <annevk> | JakeA: basically waiting for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17648 |
| 15:20 | <annevk> | JakeA: we've numerous collections, ideally they all do the same thing |
| 15:21 | <JakeA> | annevk: Any idea how close ES6 iterators are? |
| 15:22 | <annevk> | JakeA: not really, hard to make any predictions about ES without attending TC39 meetings :/ |
| 15:22 | <annevk> | must be the most closed standards group we have |
| 15:24 | <JakeA> | hah |
| 18:27 | <Domenic> | ES6 iterators are done and shipping in Firefox and Chrome |
| 18:53 | <wanderview> | annevk: ^^^ |
| 19:06 | <TabAtkins> | JakeA: Based on my last talk with Domenic, the plan is still to have Streams do binary-level stuff, object streams as something different, and *investigate* whether it's possible/worthwhile to merge them. |
| 19:06 | <TabAtkins> | (I don't think it is.) |
| 19:06 | <TabAtkins> | annevk: Note that you can add "iterator foo()" or whatever to your IDL right now. |
| 20:03 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: see the bug |
| 20:04 | <annevk> | there's a bunch of stuff that doesn't really address |
| 20:04 | <Ms2ger> | http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2dk60t/we_build_internet_explorer_i_know_right_ask_us/ |
| 20:04 | <Domenic> | It's important to allow custom iterator definitions in some way, in addition to "just copy Array.prototype's pattern" |
| 20:04 | <Ms2ger> | Who still has bugs they need IE feedback on? |
| 20:04 | <Ms2ger> | Oh, looks like they're done already |
| 20:04 | <Domenic> | SteveF got them good in that thread http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2dk60t/we_build_internet_explorer_i_know_right_ask_us/cjq8jph |
| 22:09 | <MikeSmith> | Domenic: Until Steve told me about it, I didn't even know that Microsoft now had that public bug tracker |
| 22:10 | <MikeSmith> | I wonder if the David who commented in that reddit thread is David Storey |
| 22:14 | <astearns> | MikeSmith: given the email address I suspect it's David Catuhe |
| 22:26 | <MikeSmith> | astearns: ah OK |
| 23:02 | <jgraham> | Also given the list of names at the top of the thread |
| 23:05 | <kriskowal> | MikeSmith: that is definitely David Storey. |
| 23:06 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 23:06 | <kriskowal> | ah, well, maybe not :/ sorry for the noise |
| 23:06 | <kriskowal> | i worked with david at motorola |
| 23:06 | <MikeSmith> | :-) |
| 23:06 | <kriskowal> | knew he moved on to ms |
| 23:06 | <MikeSmith> | yeah but seems that's not him in that comment |
| 23:07 | jgraham | notes again that the top of the thread has a list of names |
| 23:07 | <jgraham> | (David Storey is not one of them) |
| 23:36 | <MikeSmith> | what kind of person reads the stuff at the header of a page/document |
| 23:37 | <MikeSmith> | caitp: I get ー[Error] Failed to load resource: the server responded with a status of 404 (Not Found) (update_manifest.py, line 0) |
| 23:37 | <MikeSmith> | caitp: nothing about not importing html5lib |
| 23:38 | <MikeSmith> | but http://w3c-test.org/tools/runner/update_manifest.py is there |
| 23:38 | <caitp> | MikeSmith: should be in the stack trace |
| 23:38 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 23:39 | <caitp> | I have the file in site-packages and can import it normally, so I think something is screwing with sys.path and breaking it, but could be wrong |
| 23:39 | <caitp> | s/file/module |
| 23:41 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: if/when you have time, https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues/1172 |
| 23:41 | <MikeSmith> | hard to troubleshoot this |
| 23:49 | <MikeSmith> | caitp: I have no stack trace |
| 23:51 | <MikeSmith> | when I run python update_manifest.py locally |
| 23:51 | <MikeSmith> | it doesn't fail or at least it doesn't emit any error message at all |
| 23:58 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: I'll put that on my list for tomorrow. Or "today" depending on your calculus of these things |
| 23:58 | <jgraham> | "list" |
| 23:58 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 23:58 | <MikeSmith> | ok |