| 02:31 | <jxs> | hey there folks, is there any info on why there are html5 specs on whatwg and 5.1 on w3c and the relation between them? |
| 02:50 | <zewt_> | w3c wants their specs to look newer, so they use a bigger number |
| 03:23 | <tripu> | jxs: here is some information about that: http://www.w3.org/html/landscape/ |
| 03:26 | <jxs> | thanks :) |
| 05:05 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: I think the HTML spec should explicitly disallow comments in the media attribute |
| 05:05 | <MikeSmith> | If you want, I can file a bug for it |
| 05:06 | <MikeSmith> | or come to think of it maybe I already did (at least I know I did for sizes) |
| 05:09 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: and to be clear I mean the document-conformance criteria |
| 05:11 | <MikeSmith> | there's no good reason for Web developers to put CSS comments into attribute values |
| 05:12 | <MikeSmith> | but if/when some developers find out they're allowed, they'll start putting some in just because they can |
| 06:52 | <zcorpan> | MikeSmith: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26195 |
| 07:44 | <hsivonen> | annevk: various github.io things get CSS blocked as mixed content for me |
| 07:44 | <hsivonen> | annevk: not exactly a run-of-the-mill FOUC |
| 07:57 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: annevk the http://sideshowbarker.github.io/console-spec/ FOUC is just due to respec I think |
| 07:58 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan: ah ok thanks (/me is not caught up on e-mail) |
| 07:59 | <MikeSmith> | I guess my answer to the question "what's the value of disallowing them?" is "what's the value in allowing them?" |
| 08:00 | <MikeSmith> | an HTML attribute value is not a CSS stylesheet |
| 08:03 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith, annevk: Maybe https everywhere rewrites github.io to https for me |
| 08:03 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: and yes, it seems more plausible that the non-http FOUC would be respec than Gecko |
| 08:04 | <annevk> | hsivonen: oh yeah, it's definitely respec; I just meant to point out it still exists |
| 08:04 | <annevk> | hsivonen: seems that HTTPS Everywhere is doing that for you |
| 08:05 | <hsivonen> | does html5lib have tests for https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17924 yet? |
| 08:06 | <hsivonen> | annevk: that sort of existence is quite a bit different than the sort of existence I meant |
| 08:10 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-tests/blob/master/tree-construction/tests9.dat#L34 maybe? |
| 08:10 | <MikeSmith> | <!DOCTYPE html><math><annotation-xml><svg><u> |
| 08:13 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: that's a full doc |
| 08:13 | MikeSmith | wonders if gsnedders and jgraham__ think that the html5lib test files having names like tests9.dat is any better than bad 001.html naming convention |
| 08:13 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: looking for fragment parsing tests |
| 08:13 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: ah yeah |
| 08:15 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: grepping through the tests localy I find probably there are none |
| 08:42 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: wanna drop <isindex> parsing in gecko? |
| 08:57 | <foolip_> | zcorpan: great success: http://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/426 |
| 08:57 | <foolip> | your move |
| 08:58 | <zcorpan> | foolip: thanks! |
| 08:58 | <zcorpan> | foolip: it's data from stable i assume? |
| 08:58 | <foolip> | zcorpan: yes, it was in M37 |
| 08:58 | <foolip> | it would have moved by now if it was going to |
| 08:59 | <foolip> | but it may just rise to something like 0.0001% in the coming week |
| 08:59 | <foolip> | in any event, ~0 |
| 08:59 | <foolip> | this is what another M36 counter looks like: http://www.chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity/427 |
| 09:00 | <zcorpan> | foolip: what does the @charset counter look for again? |
| 09:02 | <foolip> | zcorpan: CSSCharsetRuleEncoding counts any read or write to CSSCharsetRule.encoding |
| 09:03 | <foolip> | it doesn't directly prove that removing the entire CSSCharsetRule is safe, but makes it seem plausible |
| 09:06 | <zcorpan> | the problematic bit is likely sites doing indexed access to other rules |
| 09:08 | <zcorpan> | i can look into the spec side of this next week |
| 09:14 | <foolip> | zcorpan: yep, that's the risky bit, and with no good way of measuring AFAICT |
| 09:15 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 09:55 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan, r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/2485 |
| 09:57 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: done |
| 09:57 | <Ms2ger> | Ta |
| 09:59 | <annevk> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2014Sep/0002.html lol |
| 09:59 | <Ms2ger> | TL;DR sounds like "I didn't read the email I replied to" |
| 10:02 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, if you have better names for tests#.dat... ;) |
| 10:04 | <MikeSmith> | math-svg.dat |
| 10:04 | <Ms2ger> | Well, sure |
| 10:04 | <Ms2ger> | But they're not all that clear-cut |
| 10:04 | <MikeSmith> | sure |
| 10:12 | <jgraham> | Yeah, the tests-*.dat aren't grouped in any particular way so in general it's hard to name them. I think the first is the real problem |
| 10:22 | <zcorpan> | your license doesn't say i can't put dogshit on your doormat |
| 10:35 | <jgraham> | Yeah, I wonder if people are guenuinely unable to understand the difference between the spirit and the letter of a license or if they're just being disingenuous |
| 11:05 | <MikeSmith> | jgraham: I think neither. I think they've rationalized it because they don't want to think of themselves as people who do hostile, hypocritical things. Therefore because they're good people, what they're doing can't actually be bad. |
| 11:05 | <MikeSmith> | there must be some clinical term for that kind of thinking |
| 11:06 | <MikeSmith> | in other news, "Nicholas Cage is no replacement for kittens" |
| 11:41 | <hsivonen> | should I be reading public-w3process? |
| 11:41 | <hsivonen> | gmail decided to land that thread (that annevk linked to above) in my inbox despite my filters saying it belongs under W3C |
| 12:19 | <hsivonen> | I'm so behind the times that my html5lib checkout has a .hg directory :-( |
| 12:21 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan: I don't see dropping <isindex> as a particular win at this time |
| 12:21 | <hsivonen> | though it's kinda sad that it's one more thing the Tor Browser Bundle folks need to worry about |
| 12:22 | <zcorpan> | hsivonen: ok. yeah i don't disagree |
| 12:23 | <hsivonen> | I don't dare to just review that SVG innerHTML stuff by reading the patch |
| 12:23 | <hsivonen> | time to write some tests |
| 12:24 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: well the html5lib tests don't have any meaningful division, so while the tests could do with being rearranged it's not really high priority |
| 12:24 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: and it means files can't just be renamed |
| 12:25 | <Ms2ger> | hsivonen, sounds like a good outcome :) |
| 12:26 | <hsivonen> | looks like Blink doesn't actually have code for http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7917&to=7918 |
| 12:26 | <hsivonen> | at least I'm not the only one failing to track the spec |
| 12:28 | <Ms2ger> | :/ |
| 12:28 | <Ms2ger> | I've thought about having a bot just file a "write a test for this" for every changeset |
| 12:28 | <gsnedders> | Somewhere a long way down on my to-do list is writing test cases for all changes to the parser |
| 12:30 | <hsivonen> | where does blink deal with putting the innerHTML of SVG elements into the SVG namespace? |
| 12:40 | <hsivonen> | https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/blink/+/a8a0a83498e1d5f7014c79cffa7e45fda6a8b08a%5E!/#F18 |
| 12:42 | <hsivonen> | I'm unamused by http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7767&to=7768 . Clearly, I've had the parser swapped out for too long. |
| 12:48 | <hsivonen> | I was about to complain that the Blink developer didn't add html5lib tests for that changeset and then I realized the html5lib test format's existing harnesses probably don't support non-HTML context elements |
| 12:52 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: we should probably just support the svg:foo syntax there, I guess |
| 12:52 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: there's also a lot of blink html5lib tests that need upstreamed, but it's a bit ambiguous as to license in the Blink (and WebKit) repo so I don't want to just grab them myself |
| 12:54 | <zcorpan> | context element is the #document-fragment in https://github.com/html5lib/html5lib-tests/blob/master/tree-construction/tests_innerHTML_1.dat ? |
| 12:54 | <gsnedders> | yeah |
| 12:56 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: isn't it better to use a space like in the expected output? |
| 12:56 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: I was meanaing the same as the expected output, just misremembering what that was :) |
| 12:56 | <zcorpan> | ah |
| 12:57 | gsnedders | is on pretty poor on-train wifi |
| 13:13 | <hsivonen> | annevk: fun times in the "[Encoding] false statement" thread |
| 13:17 | <foolip> | hsivonen: link? |
| 13:17 | <hsivonen> | foolip: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2014JulSep/ |
| 13:18 | <foolip> | hsivonen: thanks! |
| 13:23 | <foolip> | I don't understand how annevk has the energy for participating in these kinds of discussions |
| 13:29 | <annevk> | foolip: cute baby helps |
| 13:29 | <foolip> | :) |
| 14:35 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: is implementation of the URL spec in blink stalled on something? |
| 14:36 | <MikeSmith> | I see https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=303152 with no updates for more than 2 months |
| 14:37 | <MikeSmith> | and https://codereview.chromium.org/143313002/ waiting on action from sof? or review? |
| 14:42 | <smaug____> | MikeSmith: wouldn't it be better to ask arv? |
| 14:44 | <MikeSmith> | smaug____: I can't tell from chromium bug tracker and review tool who's the assignee, reviewer |
| 14:46 | <MikeSmith> | the UI of that stuff seems to be some kind of (reverse) intelligence test |
| 16:20 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: there's many different parts of the URL spec |
| 16:21 | <annevk> | But e.g. new URL("test:test") works in dev |
| 17:53 | <smaug____> | HTML spec's attribute handling is so hard to follow |
| 17:54 | <smaug____> | "Each input, select, and textarea element has an autofill hint set, an autofill scope, an autofill field name, and an IDL-exposed autofill value." but then..."The subsections that define each type also clearly define in normative "bookkeeping" sections which of these feature apply, and which do not apply, to each type." |
| 17:55 | <smaug____> | and "autocomplete" doesn't apply to type="hidden" |
| 17:55 | <smaug____> | Hixie: ^ |
| 17:56 | <smaug____> | ahaa, "When an attribute doesn't apply to an input element, user agents must ignore the attribute, regardless of the requirements and definitions below." |
| 17:56 | <Hixie> | yes? |
| 17:56 | <smaug____> | almost unreadable spec |
| 17:57 | <Hixie> | file bugs |
| 17:57 | <smaug____> | but nothing new there :) |
| 17:58 | <Hixie> | https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25471 may be of relevance for the specific case you are referring to, btw |
| 17:58 | <Hixie> | i'm half-way through the relevant edit |
| 17:59 | <Hixie> | (it's unlikely to make the spec any clearer though) |
| 18:45 | <annevk> | Hixie: with DreamHost VPS do you still have their control panel or is it very low-level? |
| 18:46 | <annevk> | I'm somewhat curious whether I should get a VPS somewhere so I have more low-level control |
| 18:46 | <Hixie> | yes, it's identical except you get an additional control for how much extra money to give them, essentially |
| 18:46 | <Hixie> | and you get root |
| 18:46 | <Hixie> | (the control is really about how much RAM to reserve) |