00:03
<wycats>
SimonSapin: maybe you can just have an informational slot for the original?
00:04
<wycats>
jgraham: I think it's likely as true as many sentences of the form "Browser X has shown that Y is possible"
00:04
<wycats>
but those sentences are said incorrectly in many cases ;)
00:07
<wycats>
I believe the original sentence by dherman was of the form "Servo is doing some interesting experiments that seem to be working ok so far. They may be worth looking into"
00:15
<jgraham>
That formulation of the original seems reasonable. The broader form is less reasonable for servo since it is generally compatible with almost no web content so it's impossible to measure compat losses
00:25
<wycats>
I don't think that's an accurate assessment re: compat
00:25
<wycats>
but you may have a very high bar
00:26
<Domenic>
how can you not have a very high bar after Array.prototype.contains
00:26
Domenic
cries
00:27
<Domenic>
(https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1075059 for those following along at home)
00:29
<terinjokes>
what features are looking at being secure sites only?
00:29
<terinjokes>
i know Service Worker is one
00:30
<Domenic>
terinjokes: annevk is hoping we can move privacy-sensitive ones like geolocation and videocam access into secure only over the next year or so
00:30
<Domenic>
terinjokes: probably EME
00:30
<Domenic>
terinjokes: in Chrome, WebCrypto, since our security guys say it is bad to give the impression of a site using crypto when in reality they could be MitMed. But Firefox disagrees and is shipping it everywhere.
00:31
<terinjokes>
interesting
00:33
<Domenic>
also in general http://www.chromium.org/Home/chromium-security/prefer-secure-origins-for-powerful-new-features
00:33
<smaug____>
speech API should be probably secure only
00:34
<terinjokes>
ah thanks, I saw that at Edge, but didn't have a link for it
00:34
<Domenic>
i wonder if requestAutocomplete is restricted...
00:50
<terinjokes>
for some reason i thought es6 modules, but looks like I'm wrong
07:21
<MikeSmith>
about fetch/CORS behavior, is the server supposed to send the Access-Control-Allow-Origin for a 304?
07:42
<annevk>
Domenic: it is
07:43
<annevk>
Domenic: https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/TLS tracks what I could find
07:44
<annevk>
terinjokes: ^
07:45
<annevk>
MikeSmith: yeah, why not?
09:05
<zcorpan>
i guess it's too late to make webrtc https only
09:08
<Ms2ger>
I dunno, is it?
09:12
<jgraham>
Depends if anyone is using in production on non https, doesn't it?
09:13
<annevk>
And how long that will last if we deprecate it, but I thought P2P stuff was already TLS-restricted
09:23
<zcorpan>
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3223 - getUserMedia seems to be allowed on insecure in gecko/blink/presto at least (but it's prefixed in gecko/blink)
09:27
<annevk>
zcorpan: oh, getUserMedia(), yes, there's a thread about that on public-media-capture that I still need to reply to
09:58
<MikeSmith>
annevk: for http://people.w3.org/mike/tests/fetch/ an Access-Control-Allow-Origin is sent wwith 200 responses as expected but not for 304 responses
09:59
<annevk>
MikeSmith: so you won't get to read the 304 response
10:00
<MikeSmith>
oh?
10:02
<MikeSmith>
annevk: ah because the browser just revalidates the cache entry?
10:03
<annevk>
MikeSmith: so this might actually be wrong in Fetch I guess
10:04
<annevk>
MikeSmith: currently we do a CORS check before we handle response statuses
10:05
<annevk>
MikeSmith: but even for redirects we require CORS checks to be done
10:05
<annevk>
MikeSmith: and this is effectively a redirect, so...
10:06
<MikeSmith>
ok
10:07
<annevk>
MikeSmith: are you encountering an issue?
10:11
<MikeSmith>
annevk: I had been thinking it was a bug because of seeing "XMLHttpRequest cannot load ... No 'Access-Control-Allow-Origin' header is present on the requested resource." when testing
10:11
<MikeSmith>
but now I realize maybe it was just because I was getting a stale cached copy from prior to when the .htaccess file was changed to add the header
10:35
<annevk>
jungkees: I'm not sure if it's worth repeating, but what you should focus on is the model
10:35
<annevk>
jungkees: what objects are in play, what is their lifetime, what objects are they associated with
10:35
<annevk>
jungkees: and then define that model in detail
10:36
<annevk>
jungkees: and then when you define something like the installing attribute, it will simply return one of the objects in that model
10:37
<annevk>
jungkees: the way you are writing the service worker specification now will not get you to the finish line
10:37
<alystair>
Anyone here happen to have a coupon code for the W3C validator suite? registering now >_>
10:40
<annevk>
I suspect MikeSmith does, but he's prolly not allowed to share those :-)
10:41
<jungkees>
annevk: Thanks for the comment. I'll soon have time to revisit that point.
10:42
<annevk>
jungkees: no rush btw, please do enjoy your time off or whatever it is you're doing now :-)
10:42
<alystair>
is there a room similar to #whatwg but for CSS spec?
10:42
<annevk>
jungkees: if you need help let me know
10:42
<annevk>
alystair: irc.w3.org has #css
10:42
<alystair>
I need to know who to blame for inner box-shadow rendering on <img>
10:42
<jungkees>
annevk: definitely. I need your help over time :-)
10:43
<alystair>
(or lack of it)
10:43
<alystair>
thanks
10:44
<MikeSmith>
alystair: I Just use the free validator, and for batch validation, the jar from https://github.com/validator/validator.github.io/releases/latest
10:46
<jgraham>
Woah, the W3C moved into validator sales?
10:48
<alystair>
perhaps W3C mug sales were not as brisk as they'd hoped? ;)
10:48
<jgraham>
Oh does that explain why the W3C is still full of mugs?
10:48
<annevk>
jgraham: apparently getting paid by members was not enough
10:48
<jgraham>
(sorry ;)
10:48
<alystair>
too much coffee not enough tea~
10:49
<annevk>
I use my W3C mug regularly for tea
10:49
<annevk>
I got mine from Amy though
10:49
<alystair>
(I didn't actually know they had mugs, more humorous than I expected)
10:50
<annevk>
Now I kind of want a WHATWG mug
10:50
<annevk>
Has anyone figured out how WHATWG green translates to print?
10:51
<jgraham>
I imagine it looks just as bad as on screen :)
10:51
<darobin>
probably just about as ugly?
10:51
<jgraham>
heh
10:52
<alystair>
"ugly mug" would have a much more literal meaning :D
10:52
<annevk>
We made a t-shirt once, that almost nobody understands. I think I still have mine somewhere and I see hober wearing it sometimes
10:52
<jgraham>
(back on the subject of the validator suite, those "testimonials" look like filler content)
10:52
<zcorpan>
createMathMLDocument() huh. http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML2/appendixd.html
10:53
<MikeSmith>
jgraham: hey I spent a lot of time writing those testimonials
10:53
<annevk>
It looks they're still for sale: http://five-gt-two.spreadshirt.com/
10:56
<annevk>
We even have wallpapers: http://whatwg.majda.cz/wallpapers/
10:58
<jgraham>
I was hoping for the kind of wallpaper you can use to decorate your home
11:10
<annevk>
heh
11:51
<annevk>
I looked into the style sheet for specifications other than HTML. It seems that for wider screens we could float the table of contents to the right. Perhaps put a border around it or some such or some a wide enough margin.
11:52
<annevk>
We could also remove the gap on the left. HTML uses that for infoboxes but no other spec has infoboxes at this point and unless Hixie generalizes the API I don't see that happening.
11:52
<annevk>
zcorpan does place the "select text to file a bug" widget in that left margin, but I'm sure we can think of something.
11:53
<annevk>
Removing the wide left margin would also allow us to fit more text on the screen for mobile devices. Apparently people do read specs on their phones.
11:59
<annevk>
Oh, back in '96 W3C used the MIT license: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-png-961001#Credits
12:00
<annevk>
Of course, even that was a regression from: http://www.w3.org/Policy.html
12:06
<Domenic>
wow 5 > 2 that is kind of subtle these days
12:06
<zcorpan>
i think i don't have mine anymore
12:07
<darobin>
Domenic: yeah, it comes off almost ironic now
12:07
<darobin>
I guess today it comes down to a battle between 5 > null and 5 > undefined ;)
12:07
<Domenic>
heh yeah
12:11
<Domenic>
broken link at the bottom of https://whatwg.org/specs/. /cc Hixie I guess
12:16
<MikeSmith>
jgraham: oh man those testimonials really are about completely unispiring as they could be
12:16
<MikeSmith>
jgraham: I think it just needs pictures, like at http://www.theonion.com/articles/new-antifacebook-social-network-ello-boasts-lack-o,37035/
12:17
<MikeSmith>
jgraham: hey, could even borrow even do a variation on the “No advertising is nice, but what really appeals to me is the lack of users.” quote there. Good fit
12:20
<annevk>
So, when you iterate over FormData you get an Array that consists of DOMString and a File? Does that seem appropriate, Domenic?
12:20
<zcorpan>
what testimonials?
12:21
<Domenic>
annevk: not an array, an iterator. but yes.
12:21
<annevk>
Domenic: well each iterator value would be an array due to lack of tuples, no?
12:21
<MikeSmith>
zcorpan: middle of https://validator-suite.w3.org/
12:21
<Domenic>
annevk: ah right i misread
12:22
<annevk>
For URLSearchParams, it would be DOMString, DOMString; Headers would be ByteString, ByteString
12:22
MikeSmith
peruses https://github.com/whatwg/loader
12:25
<Domenic>
annevk: agree
12:25
<Domenic>
annevk: that is the default iterator; you also want keys() and values() iterators
12:28
<zcorpan>
MikeSmith: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
12:30
<annevk>
"enhanced validity"
12:30
<annevk>
Too bad Extended Validation is already a thing
12:31
<MikeSmith>
oh man I guess I'd be better off having not tried to actually read that page
12:31
<jgraham>
annevk: "enhanced validity" is going to be the tagline for W3C's new unsolicited email marketing campaign
12:32
<MikeSmith>
jgraham: that was considered but I think the consensus decision was to go with "now with turbo boost"
12:34
<MikeSmith>
annevk: trying to figure out how to fit "Reasonably unfiltered" into the messaging there
12:34
<jgraham>
"can't perform in your text editor? Women laugh at your markup? Get enhanced validity now"
12:34
<MikeSmith>
hahah
12:36
<annevk>
Domenic: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26183#c17
12:36
<annevk>
jgraham: that's a bit sexist
12:38
<jgraham>
annevk: I was thinking of viagra spam, which is generally marketed at men
12:43
<Domenic>
annevk: seems similar to the MapLikeIterator from that other bug
12:43
<Domenic>
annevk: which was blocked on figuring out what the abstract model should be
12:43
<Domenic>
annevk: "blocked" = "I was too lazy to propose that part because it is harder"
12:48
<annevk>
Domenic: perhaps at this point IDL should just expose the hooks for iterators as I suggested in the end and we can define the templates ourselves
12:48
<annevk>
Domenic: templates for multimap-like, set-like, etc.
12:48
<annevk>
Domenic: and then much later uplift the whole thing to something better
12:50
<Domenic>
seems reasonable I guess
13:09
<beverloo>
annevk, what exception for incorrect invocation?
13:09
<beverloo>
we have no exceptions on that code path (N.requestPermission)
13:09
<annevk>
beverloo: e.g. Notification.requestPermission("TEST") throws I think
13:09
<annevk>
beverloo: you haven't studied the full code path then ;-)
13:10
<beverloo>
ah, binding magic
13:23
<jgraham>
Isn't the conversation that's currently playing out on whatwg@ exactly what Hixie complained about with the use of rejection for exceptional conditions?
13:34
<annevk>
jgraham: don't think so
13:35
<jgraham>
annevk: OK, well I mailed the list so feel free to explain why I'm wrong
13:37
<annevk>
maybe later
13:41
<jgraham>
Now I feel rejected :p
13:50
<Domenic>
annevk: FWIW I feel like it comes down to names, and "request" is ambiguous
13:50
<Domenic>
If it it was "getPermissionFromUser()" then I would say not getting permission is exceptional
13:50
<Domenic>
if it was "doesUserAllowCameraAccess()" then it would be clearly unexceptional
13:51
<Domenic>
but "requestPermission()" could go either way
14:13
<Domenic>
link to the bug on speccing animation frame tasks and tying CSS animations into all that?
14:30
<gsnedders>
jgraham, hsivonen: my gut says that the fragment parsing tests should probably be in a separate test file; thoughts?
14:57
<annevk>
Domenic: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26839 is the latest on animation frame tasks
14:58
<annevk>
Domenic: if you ignore the name, since whether we call it requestMoon() or getMoon() seems hardly relevant, what behavior do we want? What code do we want people to write?
14:58
<annevk>
jgraham: hah, just deferred
15:24
<annevk>
JakeA: https://github.com/slightlyoff/ServiceWorker/issues/412 ping
15:29
<slightlyoff>
looking
15:30
<slightlyoff>
JakeA is out (vacation) IIRC
15:31
<annevk>
slightlyoff: you're more than acceptable as stand-in :p
15:41
<annevk>
TabAtkins: I feel like you should talk to Domenic about how to sort that mismatch
15:41
<annevk>
TabAtkins: I agree with you that it makes a lot of sense to group all "failure", but then the async/await path really sucks
15:59
<slightlyoff>
I think that the described behaiour is fine, annevk
15:59
<annevk>
slightlyoff: and the new name?
15:59
<slightlyoff>
annevk: is the name change related to the value of Cache-Control? or of the option to fetch?
15:59
<annevk>
slightlyoff: fetch
15:59
<annevk>
cache-control is not really affected in any way I hope
15:59
<slightlyoff>
I'd like it to not have a dash = )
16:00
<slightlyoff>
but otherwise I don't mind
16:00
<slightlyoff>
it seems fine. Defer to Horo-san on actual behavior, but this seems fine WRT our impl
16:14
<Ms2ger>
https://twitter.com/CDN_Antitheist/status/517252789680877568
16:15
<annevk>
Ms2ger: those replies lol
16:29
<TabAtkins>
annevk: I agree that it sucks.
16:30
<TabAtkins>
annevk: Though we could always add a Promise.prototype method that shifts *some* rejects into fulfills, when they're tagged as "not fatal" or something.
16:30
<TabAtkins>
await geo.request().lessThrowing()
16:31
<TabAtkins>
Or something else like that, I dunno.
16:31
<annevk>
I guess Domenic's point is that it should be the other way around
16:31
<TabAtkins>
Maybe a different keyword, one that only rethrows "fatal" rejects, and one that throws all of them.
16:32
<TabAtkins>
annevk: Yeah, but his "other way around" is optimized for `await`, not promises. We can fix one of them, the other's frozen.
16:38
<annevk>
I'm rather aligned personally with the return/throw analogy.
16:38
<annevk>
(And to be clear, a network error seems like something you'd throw for since that is exceptional. Normally that works.)
16:41
<jgraham>
Hmm, depends what you mean by "network error"
16:41
<jgraham>
I'm familiar with APIs that throw for socket errors, but less so with ones that would throw for e.g. a 500 HTTP response
16:42
<annevk>
jgraham: network error is defined in https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/
16:42
<TabAtkins>
annevk: I thought that fetch() fulfilled for failure responses.
16:42
<annevk>
TabAtkins: failure being?
16:43
<TabAtkins>
Hm, from a quick reading of the definition of "network error" in the spec, I'm not sure. It doesn't go into any detail about what sorts of things cause network errors.
16:44
<annevk>
Yeah, you need to read through the spec
16:44
<TabAtkins>
UGH WHY IS IT SO HARD
16:44
<annevk>
But typical scenarios include the network failing, CORS failing, infinite redirects
16:44
<annevk>
HTTP 500 is not a network error
16:45
<annevk>
The network is fine, it's the server that's not
16:45
<TabAtkins>
Ah, kk
16:45
<jgraham>
Really? https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#cors-preflight-fetch-0 sounds like it is, but I might be missing something
16:47
<annevk>
jgraham: that would be CORS failing
16:48
<annevk>
jgraham: CORS is a protocol layered on top, but any failures have to be masked as network failures for security
16:48
<jgraham>
Oh I see
18:47
<Hixie>
so i'm working on replacing the in-spec feature boxes with just importing the caniuse data
18:47
<Hixie>
anyone have any opinions on this?
18:47
<Hixie>
e.g. should I just look at the state of the latest version?
18:47
<Hixie>
most widely used version?
18:47
<Hixie>
any version?
18:47
<Hixie>
(version of a browser, i mean)
18:47
<Hixie>
i'm leaning towards "latest"
18:48
<Ms2ger>
Latest
18:48
<Hixie>
k
18:49
<Hixie>
i'm thinking that i should get the N most popular browsers, probably N=5 since we have 5 icons right now in the box, and then i just show the icons of the the subset of those browsers that support the feature
18:49
<Hixie>
instead of the current hidden icon / shown icon thing
19:05
<annevk>
Loving unimpressed marcosc
19:06
<annevk>
Hixie: while you do that, can you consider a change in styling that makes them floats and uses the sidebar for text rather than mostly whitespace?
19:06
<annevk>
Hixie: in particular on devices with smaller screens, it feels a bit like a waste
19:07
<annevk>
Hixie: I might fork the style sheet (or override) for a while to do something else on other specs
19:07
<Hixie>
how do you mean?
19:07
<Hixie>
the margin's roughly the same on both sides, no?
19:08
<annevk>
Hixie: I think what you should show is since when the feature is supported on a per browser basis
19:08
<annevk>
Hixie: no, there's an 8em left margin
19:08
<annevk>
Hixie: very clear in e.g. https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#acknowledgments
19:08
<annevk>
Hixie: outside of HTML that margin is only used for that black arrow
19:09
<Hixie>
oh, i see, there's a max-width and i happen to have a monitor wide enough that it gives a margin on both sides
19:10
<Hixie>
i guess we could move the margin to the right, but that doesn't seem like it'd help much...
19:10
<Hixie>
floats don't work very well so i'm reluctant to use those
19:10
<annevk>
no shifting the margin is not good :-)
19:10
<Hixie>
and floats don't let you pin the box to the top of the screen
19:10
<annevk>
hmm true
19:11
<Hixie>
if you want i can point the spec to a style sheet you control so you can play with it and see if you can come up with something that works but is better
19:11
<annevk>
Hixie: do you care to maintain the style sheet for non-HTML specs as well? perhaps the boxes layout can be opt-in?
19:12
<Hixie>
imho we should keep all the specs consistent
19:12
<Hixie>
ideally, we'd have all the specs have this caniuse data
19:12
<annevk>
Hixie: that sounds great to me, can you write the software more generically this time? :-)
19:12
<Hixie>
though since i'm baking it in at spec generation time to make the html spec load faster, it's not something you'll get for free
19:12
<Hixie>
the html spec generator is pretty generic, i think?
19:13
<annevk>
is that public now? sorry I haven't been paying attention much
19:13
<annevk>
I'm happy to do work to make this work in other specs, either through a <script> or some pre-processing
19:13
<Hixie>
what generator do you use these days, anolis?
19:14
<annevk>
Hixie: you could put shared resources in https://github.com/whatwg/resources.whatwg.org/ and they will end up on https://resources.whatwg.org/
19:14
<annevk>
Hixie: there's a commit hook that automates that process
19:14
<annevk>
Hixie: I still use Anolis, have some hopes of switching to Bikeshed
19:15
<Hixie>
you could lobby tab to add caniuse logic to bikeshed
19:16
<annevk>
but yeah, as I mentioned earlier today I'd be interested in having less whitespace on small screens
19:17
<annevk>
perhaps we can use floats there and not do the top align thing
19:17
<annevk>
and introduce actual content earlier, perhaps by floating the ToC
19:18
<Hixie>
how about i point the spec to https://resources.whatwg.org/experiment.css (as an additional style sheet) and you can see if you can come up with something nice that replaces what we have now
19:19
<annevk>
sounds interesting, let's try it
19:21
<annevk>
biab
19:26
<Hixie>
annevk: (done)
20:09
<zcorpan>
Hixie: latest is sometimes "unknown" on caniuse i think. while current version might be "no". but maybe that is ok
20:10
<Hixie>
i'll skip past unknowns if i have a previous known value
20:18
<Hixie>
interesting
20:19
<Hixie>
according to the caniuse.com data, iOS Safari and Android Chrome both have 6.09% usage share
21:07
<annevk>
Hixie: zcorpan: I would expect us to list the earliest known browser for a given feature
21:07
<annevk>
Hixie: zcorpan: e.g. IE7+ or some such for XMLHttpRequest
21:09
<Hixie>
when you say "list"
21:09
<Hixie>
how do you envisage this being shown?
21:09
<Hixie>
i mean i was just imagining showing an icon, like now
21:09
<Hixie>
just... more accurate
21:10
<annevk>
Hixie: no text?
21:11
<annevk>
Hixie: I can imagine that if people see IE / Safari supporting it, they wonder which version it is
21:11
<Hixie>
i'm more or less open to anything, if you have a concrete suggestion :-)
21:11
<annevk>
[browsericon][versions
21:11
<annevk>
]
21:12
<annevk>
or some such
21:13
<annevk>
Support in: [FF]22+ [C/O]30+ [IE]11 [S]7
21:13
<Hixie>
like, stacked vertically?
21:14
<Hixie>
here, the style sheet is in now
21:14
<Hixie>
make me a mockup :-)
21:17
<annevk>
Hixie: example of a feature that has this?
21:17
<annevk>
I picked DOMStringMap, no luck
21:17
<Hixie>
has what?
21:18
<annevk>
https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/dom.html#the-id-attribute seems fine
21:18
<annevk>
Hixie: I just thought that if you're going to use the caniuse data, apart from the browsers that supports it, you might also want to mention from which version they support it, if that information is there
21:19
<Hixie>
i'm happy to do so if you have a suggestion for what it should look like
21:19
<Hixie>
i'm writing the code to get that data
21:19
<Hixie>
i'll put it in the markup
21:19
<Hixie>
and your style sheet will show it
21:19
<Hixie>
:-)
21:19
<Hixie>
(for now, fake it with generated content)
21:22
<annevk>
http://www.w3.org/community/urispec/participants o_O
21:23
<annevk>
Oh, the only email so far is the one that got me there: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-urispec/2014Oct/0000.html
21:23
<annevk>
So I guess that means it's a no-op
21:24
<wilhelm>
Wat.
21:24
<annevk>
Hixie: can you tell me what you plan on changing markup-wise and what remains the same?
21:24
<annevk>
Hixie: I can't do it tonight, but will give this a shot tomorrow, should be fun to do some tweaking
21:25
<Hixie>
annevk: i've no plans yet
21:25
<Hixie>
annevk: assume it'll be identical until further notice
21:25
<Hixie>
if you do nothing, it'll be identical cos that way i won't have to touch the style sheet :-)
22:15
<Hixie>
we are gonna have to clean up this caniuse data
22:15
<Hixie>
the spec links in particular. even if you ignore that they point to TR/ pages more often than not, some of the frag IDs are not very precise.
22:15
<Hixie>
also there's not that much data here, all things considered.
22:16
<Hixie>
what do people think: should we keep the current system, or switch to caniuse.com data when the latter would only annotate 26 places in the spec?
22:23
<Hixie>
jgraham: you around?
22:29
<Ms2ger>
Hixie, doesn't sound like it's worth it
22:30
<Ms2ger>
Hixie, I'd be more interested in test results once we aggregate those
22:30
<Hixie>
i think i'm going to drop the current boxes and replace it with caniuse data and links to bugs
22:30
<Hixie>
the current links to bugs thing isn't very up to date, i think
22:31
<Hixie>
and drop the "section status" stuff
22:31
<Hixie>
but if there's other stuff that can be added in, like test results, i'm happy to add those
23:24
<Hixie>
kittens, even with the HTML5 spec i get multiple versions of the w3c spec
23:24
<Hixie>
not quite as bad as the canvas spec was, but still
23:25
<Hixie>
just in my caniuse/bugs processing code, i have five lines just to recognise URLs that refer to the w3c html5 spec
23:25
<Hixie>
(i have five lines for the whatwg spec too, but four of those are redirects now)
23:26
<Hixie>
oh, found another. w3c html5 specs.
23:26
<Hixie>
six of them.
23:28
<Hixie>
7.
23:40
<Hixie>
TabAtkins: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=25472#c18 disagrees with your argument about how a successful promise should never represent user cancelation