| 00:00 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, for now I'm assuming that logical properties are on CSS2Properties and so would be |
| 00:01 | <TabAtkins> | Yeah, they would be, possibly as shorthands. |
| 00:02 | <TabAtkins> | (Requires a two-level cascade, so you can cascade direction/writing-mode first, then cascade the logical properties with the physical properties.) |
| 00:02 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, yeah. the cascading thing is working out well in my patches. |
| 00:04 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, what spec will this be defined in, in case I send in some mails and need to work out what tag to use in the subject? |
| 00:07 | <TabAtkins> | heycam: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-logical-props/ |
| 00:07 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, cheers, I didn't know about that spe |
| 00:07 | <heycam> | *spec |
| 00:07 | <TabAtkins> | Me neither. ^_^ fantasai just reminded me. |
| 00:08 | <heycam> | :) |
| 00:15 | <MikeSmith> | TabAtkins: btw please tell CSS people thanks from me for all efforts that have gone into writing mode. And to whoever says writing mode isn't important, please point them at http://www.asahi.com/special/politas/tanikawa/ |
| 00:15 | <MikeSmith> | that's a poem that was published a week ago in the online version of one of Japan's biggest newspapers |
| 00:16 | <MikeSmith> | by Japan's most famous living poet |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | you're making it hard for me to argue against <poem> and company |
| 00:16 | <MikeSmith> | (it's a nice poem too -- topical, about the national election that happened here last week) |
| 00:16 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 00:16 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: I'd love to have <poem> personally |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 00:17 | <MikeSmith> | definitely much more than I love <article> |
| 00:18 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, the source for that online-newspaper poem uses writing-mode: vertical-rl, with some scripted fallback for browsers that don't yet support it |
| 00:21 | <MikeSmith> | and while I admire the engineering that went into the code for the fallback, it's horrible stuff that no web dev should rightly ever have to do just to get a poem layed out on the Web in the same simple way the poet has layed out every single poem he's ever published anywhere else |
| 00:22 | <MikeSmith> | the DOM of the fallback case ends up putting every single character of the poem into a span and then rotating each character |
| 00:25 | <MikeSmith> | anyway while realize almost no other part of the world needs writing-mode: vertical-rl support, it really is massively useful for users in Japan. To be able to do very simple things like read a poem in the way they the writer intended it to be read, and in the way that Japanese users are used to reading them |
| 00:25 | MikeSmith | goes back to fixing python |
| 00:29 | <TabAtkins> | Thank fantasai and kojiishi. ^_^ |
| 00:29 | <TabAtkins> | heycam: Btw, the logical-prop spec is half-copypasted and half-inconsistent (you can decide which half for each part). |
| 00:30 | <fantasai> | heycam: It was pulled from a 2010 appendix of writing modes and only half updated |
| 00:30 | <fantasai> | heycam: It's on the to-do list |
| 00:30 | <heycam> | TabAtkins, fantasai, ok I will take it with a pitcher of salt |
| 00:30 | <fantasai> | heycam: to finish updating and publish it fpwd |
| 00:30 | <fantasai> | yes, thanks :) |
| 00:30 | <heycam> | :) |
| 00:31 | <fantasai> | heycam: names will be matched up to the latest writing modes ED and WG resolutions to use block-start/inline-start/start etc. |
| 00:31 | <fantasai> | heycam: and we'll get a nice shorthand like margin-block/margin-inline in addition to margin-inline-start etc. |
| 00:31 | <heycam> | fantasai, oh cool, I did wonder about something like margin-block/margin-inline |
| 00:31 | <fantasai> | heycam: yeah, it fell out of the new naming scheme :) |
| 00:31 | fantasai | happy about that |
| 00:32 | <fantasai> | heycam: Still uncertain exactly how the interlocked cascade will work, but, that's the way for ward wrt syntax |
| 00:32 | <heycam> | fantasai, would "margin-block" take 2 values? |
| 00:32 | <fantasai> | yes |
| 00:32 | <heycam> | ok |
| 00:33 | <fantasai> | heycam: thing I'm particularly unsure of is the values that 'float' would take :/ |
| 00:33 | <heycam> | fantasai, inline-start/inline-end? |
| 00:34 | <fantasai> | anyway, feel free to ping me with questions. I probably won't get around to editing that up until I get through some of the more urgent stuff ^_^ |
| 00:34 | <heycam> | (fantasai, which presumably would also get converted to left/right/top/bottom at cascade time?) |
| 00:34 | <fantasai> | heycam: Yeah, I'm not sure. text-align takes start/end |
| 00:34 | <fantasai> | heycam: float is weird |
| 00:34 | <fantasai> | heycam: because CSS1/2 floats are single-axis |
| 00:34 | <heycam> | fantasai, I guess it's weird partly because float:top is not analagous to float:left |
| 00:35 | <fantasai> | heycam: but theoretically (and howcome proposes this) it can be 2D |
| 00:35 | <fantasai> | heycam: right |
| 00:35 | <fantasai> | heycam: For 1D properties like text-align, we have start/end/left/right |
| 00:35 | <fantasai> | heycam: which map to inline-start/inline-end/line-left/line-right |
| 00:36 | <fantasai> | heycam: the logical properties (as opposed to values) have less of this confusing issue though :) |
| 00:36 | <fantasai> | heycam: so if that's what you're working on, it's less unclear what's supposed to happen |
| 00:36 | <heycam> | fantasai, no I'm just working on the properties. all the rest I'll leave to jkew/smontagu. :) |
| 00:37 | <heycam> | fantasai, anyway will email and further questions that arise; but mostly it's "just working" |
| 00:37 | <Domenic> | Anyone know what 1__qem in Blink is? |
| 00:37 | <fantasai> | heycam: cool. If you figure out how the cascade is working, let me know, I haven't quite written that section yet ;) |
| 00:38 | <fantasai> | heycam: also, don't you want to map physical to logical in the style data, not the other way around? |
| 00:38 | <fantasai> | heycam: since, iirc, the layout engine is doing layout in logical coords |
| 00:38 | <TabAtkins> | Domenic: __qem is a bizarro unit used solelky to implement a table margin quirk, or something like that. |
| 00:38 | <TabAtkins> | It's equal to em, except when it's not. |
| 00:38 | <heycam> | fantasai, I thought it was the other way around, we're storing things physically |
| 00:38 | <Domenic> | TabAtkins: funnn |
| 00:38 | <TabAtkins> | qem = "quirky em" |
| 00:38 | <heycam> | fantasai, otoh I'm not touching layout code, so maybe I'm out of date |
| 00:38 | <TabAtkins> | Ignore, it's dumb bullshit that nobody else does, so we don't actually need it, but nobody's removed it yet. |
| 00:39 | <fantasai> | heycam: well, we didn't have logical anything until recently |
| 00:39 | <heycam> | right |
| 00:39 | <fantasai> | heycam: I think the plan was, store the iframe data in physical coords (good for painting), but convert to logical coords for reflow |
| 00:39 | <heycam> | fantasai, I'm not sure where style data fits in those two parts |
| 00:39 | <fantasai> | heycam: So, unsure what style data should be recorded in. But might want to check with smontagu/jkew/dbaron |
| 00:39 | <fantasai> | heycam: about what's best |
| 00:39 | <heycam> | fantasai, probably the former |
| 00:40 | <heycam> | fantasai, anyway, it's easily switched if that works out easier |
| 00:40 | <fantasai> | fair enough :) |
| 00:40 | <fantasai> | have fun~ :P |
| 00:41 | fantasai | is pretty sure it is more fun that orthogonal flow calculations |
| 00:41 | <fantasai> | which still make me dizzy |
| 00:42 | <heycam> | heh yes I'm sure it would be :p |
| 01:09 | <roc> | I think we should carry on storing the style data as physical values for now. |
| 01:11 | <dbaron> | agreed |
| 01:53 | <MikeSmith> | Domenic: weird, clicking your <custom-blockquote> etc. links in my Chromium-built-from-trunk doesn't work |
| 01:53 | MikeSmith | rebuilds |
| 01:53 | <TabAtkins> | Interestingly, we do layout in logical space in Chrome/WebKit. |
| 01:53 | <Domenic> | MikeSmith: weird indeed, hmmm. You can just scroll to it also |
| 01:56 | <fantasai> | TabAtkins: Yeah, that's because you implementd writing modes |
| 01:57 | <fantasai> | TabAtkins: IIRC that was part of the changes that went into the implementation |
| 03:10 | MikeSmith | sees something called Surface Worker in the blink sources, prays its just some internal thing |
| 03:13 | <MikeSmith> | and now wondering why I'm not allowed to view https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=434226 |
| 03:15 | MikeSmith | discovers GuestView |
| 03:16 | <MikeSmith> | "manage a guestview from javascript".. I guess (hope) this is all just extensions stuff |
| 03:21 | <MikeSmith> | hah :) https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=431002 |
| 03:21 | <MikeSmith> | What steps will reproduce the problem? |
| 03:21 | <MikeSmith> | 1. Look at web_view.js |
| 03:21 | <MikeSmith> | 2. Gasp at the amount of code that is repeated, unnecessarily complex, and/or dead/unused. |
| 03:23 | <MikeSmith> | https://docs.google.com/document/d/1naxaMvhHbD_Rdr6o8hBdaAJczhpL8INkoglQw5TGcNk/edit#heading=h.5ce1bdjz6hrc |
| 03:23 | <MikeSmith> | "WTFrame: An Outrageous Web Threading Model" |
| 03:24 | <MikeSmith> | <worker-thread-frame src="foo.html" width=x height=y> |
| 03:24 | <MikeSmith> | I assumed this is probably already been discussed somewhere in the thousands of mailing-list messages in my inbox I'm behind on reading |
| 03:29 | <MikeSmith> | wondering how this different than http://benfrancis.github.io/webview/ |
| 05:31 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie: https://rawgit.com/secretGeek/console-adventure/master/console.html |
| 06:57 | <zcorpan> | TabAtkins: which quirk? |
| 08:22 | <zcorpan_> | TabAtkins: oh it's https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/rendering.html#margin-collapsing-quirks |
| 08:23 | <zcorpan_> | except not conforming to the spec |
| 08:33 | <zcorpan_> | TabAtkins: btw iirc font-family only allows strings and idents, not numbers or dimensions. although we considered changing it at some point |
| 09:04 | <foolip> | annevk: I replied with a guess |
| 09:06 | <annevk> | Domenic: https://github.com/domenic/html-as-custom-elements/issues/35 another idea was to use Symbols so we would maybe support these kind of callbacks for "normal" elements too down the road |
| 09:24 | <foolip> | annevk: I don't understand https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27294#c24 |
| 09:25 | <foolip> | are you saying that selectors won't match in non-HTML, non-SVG namespaces, that getElementById doesn't work, or something like that? |
| 09:28 | <foolip> | I tested, both getElementById and querySelector seems to find these Elements when they have class="" and id="" attributes |
| 09:39 | <annevk> | foolip: oh sorry |
| 09:40 | <zcorpan_> | i wonder if DTD ID has been dropped by anyone yet |
| 09:41 | <annevk> | data:text/xml,<x id="test"><script xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">alert(document.getElementById("test"))</script><style xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">%23test {background:lime } </style></x> |
| 09:41 | <annevk> | I wonder when that happened |
| 09:42 | <annevk> | For some reason that URL causes infinite loading in Chrome |
| 09:44 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan_, I believe I did for Gecko |
| 09:48 | <zcorpan_> | w00t http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/3343 |
| 09:49 | <zcorpan_> | the %23y should be %23z but anyway, looks like it has been dropped by gecko/webkit/blink |
| 09:50 | <zcorpan_> | scary that i still know how to write an internal subset :-( |
| 09:50 | <zcorpan_> | stupid brain |
| 10:00 | <SteveF_> | Hixie: note the HTML feature to ARIA http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#mapping-to-existing-wai-aria-role-semantics and acc API mappings are now in http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html, and is what implementers are using, plan on pulling plug on w3c html WAI-ARIA section. The conformance requirements for use of ARIA and checking tool implementation... |
| 10:01 | <SteveF_> | ...is moving here https://specs.webplatform.org/html-aria/webspecs/master/ (note very ealry draft needs work) - MikeSmith is moving to use that for his checker implementations |
| 13:55 | <SteveF_> | is https://developers.whatwg.org/ being maintained or is it stale? |
| 13:55 | <SteveF_> | can't find any date on it |
| 13:59 | <Ms2ger> | Staleish, I think |
| 14:06 | <SteveF_> | Ms2ger: thanks |
| 14:54 | <ondras> | q |
| 14:54 | <ondras> | oops. |
| 19:27 | <Krinkle> | Looks like the "disabled" attribute on <link rel=stylesheet> is non-standard (Chrome implements it, Firefox does not) |
| 19:27 | <Krinkle> | They both implement (per standard) the DOM object property though. |
| 19:27 | <Krinkle> | Any chance of adding that to the standard? |
| 19:27 | <Krinkle> | https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/link?#Attributes |
| 19:32 | <Ms2ger> | JavaScript error: https://whatwg.org/demos/canvas/blue-robot/index-idle.html, line 44: NS_ERROR_FAILURE: |
| 19:34 | <Ms2ger> | Krinkle, file a bug, please |
| 19:35 | <Krinkle> | Ms2ger: Which bug tracker? w3? |
| 19:35 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah |
| 19:36 | <Ms2ger> | Under WHATWG::HTML |
| 19:40 | <Krinkle> | Ms2ger: OK. Was slightly confused with product 'HTML WG', but found it. I guess that one is for actual specs, once published. |
| 19:41 | <Ms2ger> | That one's for political games rather than technical issues |
| 19:46 | <Krinkle> | https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27677 |
| 19:46 | <Krinkle> | Thanks |
| 19:51 | <Hixie> | https://whatwg.org/newbug is a nice short link for people to point others to when they're to file bugs |
| 19:53 | <Hixie> | developers.whatwg.org is mostly blocked on https://github.com/benschwarz/developers.whatwg.org/issues/90 |
| 20:05 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, while you're here |
| 20:06 | <Ms2ger> | Hixie, the example at #association-of-controls-and-forms doesn't actually seem to work |
| 20:08 | <TabAtkins> | Hixie: Any change you can mark the developers version with an obsoletion notice? Multiple people asked me about it at the conf I was at last week. |
| 20:09 | <TabAtkins> | *chance |
| 22:11 | <Domenic> | HTML as Custom Elements is so far just depressing, can't even get <custom-div> or <custom-span> faithfully working. |
| 22:18 | <TabAtkins> | custom-div is just lacking the ability to hook into the UA stylesheet, which is unsurprising, as it's the UA stylesheet. |
| 22:19 | <TabAtkins> | Also <div> has no styling at all, if custom elements default to block. What's wrong there? |
| 22:25 | <Domenic> | custom elements default to inline |
| 22:25 | <Domenic> | <custom-span> has no styling |
| 22:25 | <Domenic> | but, it's exposed to a11y as a <div> |
| 22:25 | <Domenic> | (like all custom elements are) |
| 22:26 | <TabAtkins> | You people fucked up. |
| 22:26 | <TabAtkins> | ^_^ |
| 22:26 | <TabAtkins> | "Let's style them as inline, but tell a11y that they're block, lolololol" |
| 22:27 | <Domenic> | I *think* it's because all unknown elements are exposed to a11y as block. Just like all unknown elements are styled by CSS as inline. |
| 22:28 | <TabAtkins> | If that's actually the preëxisting behavior, then I'll repeat: lolololol |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | TabAtkins: i think ben's the one with upload access |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | Mso150: oh? |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | er |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | that was for ms2ger |
| 23:23 | <esprehn> | Anyone know how you're supposed to abort() a request made with fetch? |
| 23:31 | <jsbell> | esprehn: not defined (yet)... |