| 00:48 | <JonathanNeal> | What are the advantages or disadvantages to adding all of the ARIA roles on a page via JavaScript? |
| 02:10 | <MikeSmith> | JonathanNeal: http://w3c.github.io/aria-in-html/#add-aria-inline-or-via-script |
| 02:15 | <MikeSmith> | hmm I guess it's not clear whether that guidance is about roles as well, not just states and properties |
| 02:16 | <MikeSmith> | though in practice I don't know how anybody would manage states and properties except via JavaScript |
| 02:34 | <Domenic> | I have found that roles cannot be modified (or added or removed) after inserting the element into the document |
| 02:34 | <Domenic> | At least, that is what chrome://accessibility says |
| 02:35 | <caitp> | i don't think that's actually true in practice, I believe there is code in the wild that needs to modify roles sometimes |
| 02:36 | <caitp> | at least, ngAria tries to attach a role to an element that didn't previously have one |
| 02:51 | <MikeSmith> | I reckon Steve Faulkner would know |
| 02:53 | <MikeSmith> | but rightly, his spec should be more precise here and also provide guidance on that question of whether roles should be changed or not (or can safely/reliably across UAs) |
| 03:16 | <Domenic> | caitp: but does that code actually work? |
| 03:19 | <caitp> | I think so |
| 03:20 | <caitp> | marcy sutton is pretty good with that stuff, and in touch with the spec |
| 03:21 | <caitp> | tests pass on multiple browsers, a few sites are using it, so i'm "pretty sure" it works |
| 03:21 | <caitp> | although the tests might not be very meaningful |
| 05:48 | <annevk> | Domenic: very cool |
| 05:48 | <annevk> | Domenic: re code coverage |
| 06:52 | <annevk> | Sebmaster: goes more for you I guess ^^ |
| 07:18 | <annevk> | Hmm |
| 08:09 | <MikeSmith> | botie, inform annevk wanted to ask you if any spec change was made related to https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2014Oct/0018.html or what the URL for the open issue for it (if any) |
| 08:09 | <botie> | will do |
| 08:46 | <SteveF> | Domenic: you can add/change role values after doc has loaded. If you refresh the chrome://accessibility/ acc tree dump it will show the current role in DOM |
| 08:51 | <SteveF> | MikeSmith: the advice you pointed to is about not adding ARIA attributes in the DOM that don't make sense when scripting is not supported, suggests all attributes that rely on scripting to make sense should be added via scripting (unless the app is only meant to be used with scripting enabled) For example landmark roles are fine as they convey doc structure , while <div role=spinbox> would... |
| 08:51 | <SteveF> | ...only make sense if the widget is scripted |
| 08:59 | <SteveF> | If any advice in w3c.github.io/aria-in-html/ needs improvement please file an issue https://github.com/w3c/aria-in-html/issues |
| 09:14 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 09:36 | <hsivonen> | w3.org unreachable for everyone or just for me? |
| 09:40 | <espadrine> | for me too |
| 09:40 | <beowulf> | hsivonen: europe seems to be having some problems with it's internet, judging by twitter |
| 09:42 | <espadrine> | wow, I hit ctrl+U, and I'm seeing the bytes arrive packet by packet |
| 09:42 | <espadrine> | it's really slow |
| 09:50 | <hsivonen> | espadrine, beowulf: thanks |
| 09:56 | <beowulf> | hsivonen: https://twitter.com/JobSnijders/status/609289882184384512 |
| 10:06 | <tantek> | hsivonen w3.org unreliable from here too |
| 10:17 | <MikeSmith> | tantek: from San Francisco? |
| 10:17 | <darobin> | beowulf: I don't think that's the problem, this is W3C-specific |
| 10:17 | <darobin> | I can only access any W3C service through my VPN |
| 10:19 | <JoWie> | same for me |
| 10:19 | <MikeSmith> | have people who are having problems getting to w3c tried a traceroute |
| 10:19 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen: traceroute? |
| 10:21 | <MikeSmith> | JoWie: from US or EU? |
| 10:23 | <darobin> | if you have it around, sudo mtr www.w3.org would be nice |
| 10:25 | <MikeSmith> | yeah just tried mtr and concur with darobin advice |
| 10:26 | <MikeSmith> | I'm not having any problems getting a route for the UK at least |
| 10:26 | <MikeSmith> | hmm well I wasn't until just a moment ago |
| 10:26 | <MikeSmith> | but now I am |
| 10:27 | <MikeSmith> | I guess I just further jinxed it |
| 10:27 | <darobin> | lol |
| 10:27 | <darobin> | maybe this is the day the internet dies |
| 10:27 | <JoWie> | EU |
| 10:27 | <tantek> | MikeSmith: yes |
| 10:28 | <darobin> | bye sweet friends, we'll meet again when we rebuild civilisation! |
| 10:28 | <MikeSmith> | I'm now getting as far as Level3 at Manchester |
| 10:28 | <MikeSmith> | civlization has ended at Manchester |
| 10:28 | <MikeSmith> | god help us all |
| 10:29 | <JoWie> | for me traceroute gives empty results on later hops |
| 10:29 | <JoWie> | last one i see is prolexic |
| 10:29 | <MikeSmith> | JoWie: interesting |
| 10:30 | <darobin> | yeah prolexic is failing, users in Germany are also reporting Level3 or Telia as failing |
| 10:30 | <JoWie> | i've had many issues with level 3 in a multiplayer game many years ago |
| 10:30 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 10:30 | <JoWie> | for months on end |
| 10:31 | <JoWie> | it was actually faster for me to proxy to a server i have in the US |
| 10:31 | <MikeSmith> | oh I thought you were making a joke |
| 10:31 | <MikeSmith> | yeah Level3 has issues sometimes |
| 10:31 | <JoWie> | faster as in ping times |
| 10:31 | <JoWie> | heh |
| 10:31 | <darobin> | anyway, I think that means it's lunch time |
| 10:32 | <MikeSmith> | but since some giant % of net traffic goes through Level3 when they have problems everybody has problems |
| 10:32 | MikeSmith | cracks open some lunch in support of darobin |
| 10:33 | <darobin> | heh |
| 10:36 | <MikeSmith> | It was Level3 who also apparently gave the NSA access to Google and Yahoo internal network lines (as was reported a couple years back from the first set Snowden materials that published I think) |
| 10:36 | <darobin> | ok, I can confirm that beowulf was right, this is not the w3c-specific issue I thought it might be |
| 10:38 | <MikeSmith> | ah ok |
| 10:43 | <MikeSmith> | ok so it seems http://research.dyn.com/2014/09/why-the-internet-broke-today/ might be happening again |
| 10:43 | <MikeSmith> | BGP FTW |
| 10:43 | <darobin> | yup |
| 10:44 | <MikeSmith> | https://twitter.com/mitsuhiko/status/609307066159767552 |
| 10:44 | <MikeSmith> | http://www.karotte.org/pics/bgp-stability.png |
| 10:53 | <smaug____> | philipj: do you you have usage data for svg's useCurrentView ? |
| 11:19 | <philipj> | smaug____: I'm afraid not, is that something you'd like to change/remove? |
| 11:33 | <smaug____> | philipj: heycam|away wants to remove it |
| 11:34 | <smaug____> | apparently removed from the latest svg spec already |
| 11:34 | <philipj> | smaug____: let me check, that must have happened very recently since I just synced this interface with the spec |
| 11:35 | <smaug____> | philipj: https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/commit/4c26fd36937a65192024208d85c144a21071b057 |
| 11:35 | <philipj> | smaug____: thanks |
| 11:36 | <smaug____> | so yes, somewhat recent change ;) |
| 11:36 | <philipj> | smaug____: heh :) |
| 11:37 | <philipj> | smaug____: I'll add the use countesr |
| 11:55 | <heycam> | philipj, smaug____, thanks |
| 11:56 | <philipj> | heycam, smaug____, use counters in Gecko would be sweet, nudge nudge |
| 11:56 | <heycam> | philipj: the patches are in the process of being reviewed :) |
| 12:00 | <smaug____> | heycam: so should we wait for usage data before removing the property? |
| 12:00 | smaug____ | thinks so |
| 12:01 | <heycam> | yeah sounds fine |
| 12:01 | <heycam> | I think I know what the answer will be, but no rush :) |
| 12:02 | <smaug____> | yeah, sorry about being so reluctant to make blind changes to web apis ;) |
| 12:02 | <smaug____> | or how to say |
| 12:02 | <heycam> | np |
| 12:31 | <botie> | annevk, at 2015-06-12 08:09 UTC, MikeSmith said: wanted to ask you if any spec change was made related to https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2014Oct/0018.html or what the URL for the open issue for it (if any) |
| 12:40 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: not sure honestly |
| 12:41 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: doesn't seem like that was ever reported as issue |
| 12:41 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: OK |
| 12:42 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: do you think it should be an issue or is it not really actually an issue? |
| 12:42 | <MikeSmith> | Santi at least didn't seem to think it was an issue that he as an implementor needed to actually care about |
| 12:42 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: it's not clear that test is actually testing it |
| 12:42 | <MikeSmith> | ok |
| 12:43 | <MikeSmith> | well as long at you're aware of it that's sufficient for me |
| 12:43 | <MikeSmith> | I just wasn't sure if anybody had bothered to give you a heads-up about it |
| 12:44 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: if you go to https://url.spec.whatwg.org/reference-implementation/liveview.html and enter http://test.com/[ you'll see the percent encoding being uppercase |
| 12:44 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: yeah, pretty sure that email is Sam not actually understanding what is going on |
| 12:45 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: basically, if you have percent encoding in the input, it's not normalized |
| 12:45 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: and I think Santiago might be normalizing, which is wrong per the specification |
| 13:06 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: yeah but Santi also explains why he's doing what he's doing (with the implication that he's not concerned about strict conformance of his implementation to the spec on this and doesn't think any of his users care either) |
| 13:07 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: yeah, it's just the reply that's wrong I guess |
| 13:08 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 13:08 | <MikeSmith> | doesn't seem like something that anybody else sees as a real problem |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: I somewhat agree with Santi that it would be nicer if everyone normalized and if I had defined URLs fifteen years ago (with the knowledge I have now) I would have, but... |
| 13:09 | <MikeSmith> | yup |
| 13:09 | <annevk> | philipj: I'll try to fix that mutation macro stuff now |
| 13:10 | <annevk> | philipj: I think I'll also get rid of the macro name and how it currently works, since it's rather weird |
| 13:10 | <philipj> | annevk: good timing, if you're really quick maybe the implementation can be updated before it lands |
| 13:10 | <philipj> | (not ships, that's not on the table yet) |
| 13:11 | <annevk> | I think you'll need Symbol.unscopeables to prevent breakage, but who knows |
| 13:18 | <philipj> | annevk: the IDL has [Unscopeable |
| 13:18 | <philipj> | I'm hoping that does the right thing |
| 13:18 | <annevk> | ah yes, if that's all defined already it should |
| 13:18 | <philipj> | should all new APIs ever now have [Unscopeable], or what's the deal? |
| 13:19 | <annevk> | mostly new stuff on nodes and arrays and such |
| 13:19 | <philipj> | heycam: will it be enough to measure just the attributes on SVGSVGElement, or is there some internal thing that's connected that should also be measured? |
| 13:19 | <annevk> | if it's likely that someone has a variable with that name |
| 13:20 | <heycam> | philipj: no just measuring accessing that property is fine |
| 13:20 | <philipj> | heycam: thanks, doing it now |
| 13:23 | <philipj> | heycam: which patches are in the process of being reviewed, those for the SVG changes or something for use counters? |
| 13:23 | <heycam> | philipj: use counters |
| 13:24 | <philipj> | awesome :) |
| 13:24 | <heycam> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=968923 if you're interested |
| 13:25 | <philipj> | CC'd myself |
| 13:51 | <hsivonen> | does anyone happen to have URLs to test cases that have huge attributes or text nodes? |
| 13:52 | <hsivonen> | (checking if I can be lazy and not write my own) |
| 14:48 | <annevk> | whoa Wikipedia goes HTTPS |
| 14:51 | <Domenic> | woah! |
| 14:58 | <tobie> | it's to make sure no one can alter the content. oh wait. |
| 14:59 | <annevk> | heh |
| 15:04 | <annevk> | philipj: I proposed a fix for the remaining bug with before/after/replaceWith |
| 15:09 | <ek_> | hello |
| 15:10 | <annevk> | ek_: hey |
| 15:11 | <ek_> | How are you? I had some questions to ask about HTML5 internals |
| 15:11 | <annevk> | ek_: good good, I saw, but you were not here! |
| 15:11 | <ek_> | I have some questions regarding task queue |
| 15:11 | <annevk> | ek_: basically, the UI events come from OS-level notifications, that the browser then queues up tasks for |
| 15:12 | <annevk> | ek_: it probably varies per OS if that's a distinct thread or not |
| 15:12 | <ek_> | How does the OS send notification to the browser? lets say its linux |
| 15:13 | <annevk> | ek_: "it's complicated" http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12717138/what-is-linux-s-native-gui-api |
| 15:15 | <ek_> | ok cool. Well actually what I was looking for not just for UI events. As there are multiple task queues in the browser. Is there any possibility that there are multiple threads that are inserting task into single queue(either it is UI, DOM or network queue) |
| 15:17 | <annevk> | Maybe history could hit such a situation |
| 15:17 | <Ms2ger> | I don't know why not |
| 15:18 | <annevk> | But in general that's up to implementations |
| 15:18 | <annevk> | As long as A -> [black box] -> B, it doesn't really matter what [black box] is |
| 15:20 | <Domenic> | tobie: rwaldron: I am going to unwatch sensors API for now because I am trying to cut down on my email flow a bit. But don't hesitate to tag me into interesting issues and questions. |
| 15:21 | <MikeSmith> | ek_: I'm curious why the answer to that question matters to you |
| 15:21 | <ek_> | So basically what I understood is when the specs tells us to do some operation asynchronously like fetch something from the web. It will be up to the implementor to do it using a different thread and then enqueue whatever task it is supposed to do or use some other mechanism to do it asynchronously. |
| 15:21 | <Ms2ger> | Yep |
| 15:21 | <tobie> | Domenic: noted. Thanks for all you did so far, it's been really helpful. |
| 15:23 | <annevk> | ek_: it doesn't necessarily have to be a distinct thread, but you have to be pretty clever to pull that of (Opera used to do that) |
| 15:23 | <ek_> | MikeSmith: I am trying to understand the queueing internals from browser perspective to get a better understanding of the event based model used and how browser is implemented |
| 15:23 | <annevk> | ek_: note that tasks are used to synchronize, they're not "in parallel" activity |
| 15:24 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: Opera did it on a single thread? if so I'd wonder why or what was too be gained from implementing it that way |
| 15:25 | <MikeSmith> | ek_: if so it would kinda seem like you'd want to be looking at some actual browser code for it |
| 15:25 | <ek_> | yeah tasks are executed in order as there is only one event loop that will be processing the events but usually there can be many threads that can insert task into the queue. |
| 15:27 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: supporting devices without threads |
| 15:27 | <MikeSmith> | myself I don't understand how, practically speaking, it can be implemented without at least one other thread separate from the JS execution is running |
| 15:27 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: ah sure |
| 15:27 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: dare I say, Brew |
| 15:27 | <MikeSmith> | oh god |
| 15:27 | <MikeSmith> | yeah now I vaguely recall some of this |
| 15:28 | <Ms2ger> | Pausing js execution |
| 15:28 | <MikeSmith> | the "PC Site Viewer" version of Opera Mobile we did for KDDI/Au here in Japan |
| 15:29 | <MikeSmith> | Ms2ger: right that's why I said practically speaking |
| 15:29 | <MikeSmith> | performantly speaking |
| 15:29 | <Domenic> | async I/O! |
| 15:29 | <MikeSmith> | not-totally-sucking-for-users-in-terms-of-performance-and-responsiveness speaking |
| 15:29 | <Domenic> | it's webscale |
| 15:29 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 15:30 | <MikeSmith> | I do know that the Brew "PC Site Viewer" version of Opera was actually usable, because I used it every day |
| 15:31 | <MikeSmith> | it wasn't a joy ride but it worked without being completely unusable at least |
| 15:31 | <MikeSmith> | I can imagine they had to use the same tricks for the Opera version that ran on the Nintento DS |
| 15:32 | <MikeSmith> | which had as much computing power as a sewing machine |
| 15:32 | <MikeSmith> | I doubt anybody else could have done it, or at least nobody would have tried |
| 15:35 | <ek_> | Thanks for the help |
| 15:36 | <JoWie> | non blocking i/o is easy to use |
| 15:36 | <Ms2ger> | MikeSmith, I think the better comparison is "as much computing power as the Apollo control system" :) |
| 15:37 | <MikeSmith> | heh |
| 15:37 | <gsnedders> | MikeSmith: you just have the JS engine yield control after some number of bytecode instructions have been executed, and use async IO and such like |
| 15:38 | <gsnedders> | the DS version of Opera… Well… |
| 15:38 | <gsnedders> | I'm pretty certain the diff was pretty huge v. any other release |
| 15:42 | <JoWie> | you had to buy opera on the wii |
| 15:51 | <gsnedders> | JoWie: the DS version was on a cartridge you had to buy! |
| 15:51 | <gsnedders> | and the DS has like no memory. |
| 15:51 | <jgraham> | MikeSmith: I think you're being quite harsh ot sewing machines |
| 15:52 | <jgraham> | Ht Wii version of Opera was free |
| 15:52 | <jgraham> | The CS version had to be bundled with extra memory on the cartridge |
| 15:52 | <jgraham> | *DS |
| 15:55 | <JoWie> | opera on wii became free later on |
| 15:55 | <JoWie> | with a refund |
| 15:56 | <JoWie> | it cost 500 "points" initially |
| 16:04 | <JoWie> | is there an easy way to view old versions of a spec |
| 16:05 | <Ms2ger> | Which? |
| 16:05 | <botie> | Which is all true, but that still doesn't mean it's a good idea, but obviously not everyone at Mozilla is aligned on that |
| 16:05 | <JoWie> | dom |
| 16:06 | <Domenic> | JoWie: the committed versions are all checked in so use rawgithub.com |
| 16:06 | <Ms2ger> | ^ |
| 16:08 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: the memory cartridge was separate! |
| 16:08 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: and also only for the DS, not the DSi (which has more memory and no GBA slot) |
| 16:08 | <JoWie> | cool site |
| 16:09 | <gsnedders> | even with the DSi the binary is larger than the total RAM, IIRC |
| 16:27 | <jgraham> | So WebDriver wants to define an operation that will take a JS object and convert it into a serialized form that has a trivial JSON representation. In particular this representation represents Elements as objects like {some_magic_property: element_uuid}. It should also handle arrays-of-things-that-can-contain-elements e.g. Array, NodeList, HTMLCollection, etc. Is there a generic way to refer to this class of collections (basically either collections |
| 16:28 | jgraham | isn't sure that made sense |
| 16:30 | <gsnedders> | "basically either collections t" |
| 16:30 | <gsnedders> | having the rest of what you wrote would help |
| 16:30 | <jgraham> | hat may have arbitary members or collections that may contain elements), or do I need to go on a case-by-case? |
| 18:15 | <mounir> | annevk: yt? |
| 22:41 | <caitp> | what is with the structured clone algorithm throwing for instances of Error? |
| 22:42 | <caitp> | it's the kind of thing that's nice to be able to pass from a worker to the ui thread |
| 22:50 | <caitp> | seems like it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to make [[ErrorData]] do something useful like hold precious stacktrace info for structured clone's needs |
| 23:10 | <benjamingr> | zenparsing: would you mind taking a look at something (short!) I just wrote and giving me quick feedback? |
| 23:11 | <zenparsing> | benjamingr sure - url? |
