| 11:29 | <annevk> | philipj: Media Session has matured surprisingly fast |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | philipj: pretty good work from you guys |
| 11:32 | <philipj> | annevk: that's almost entirely thanks to richt, implementation-wise we're not very far along yet :) |
| 11:32 | <annevk> | I will say that he is amazingly bad at placing commas for a native speaker :p |
| 11:33 | <richt> | annevk: lol. but thanks. |
| 11:33 | <richt> | we still have lots of interesting issues to resolve of course. Implementation should flush those out. |
| 11:34 | <annevk> | philipj: so sicking's concerns seem mostly high-level |
| 11:34 | <annevk> | philipj: whether we can align desktop and mobile and not break stuff |
| 11:34 | <annevk> | philipj: that current implementations are rather sucky |
| 11:45 | <philipj> | annevk: one issue that we're trying to get internal input in, do resolve our deadlock, is https://github.com/whatwg/mediasession/issues/50 |
| 11:45 | <philipj> | s/internal/external/ |
| 12:01 | <annevk> | philipj: your position makes somewhat more sense to me |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | philipj: although I don't really see how https://github.com/whatwg/mediasession/issues/50#issuecomment-111076225 cannot be achieved without activate() |
| 12:03 | <annevk> | philipj: it seems to me you can always create a MediaSession as appropriate and assign it to some element |
| 12:04 | <philipj> | annevk: do you mean that the metadata could be used even before the session has become active for the first time? |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | philipj: well it could be set and ready way before you invoke play() and then once play() is invoked the UA updates all things |
| 12:05 | <annevk> | philipj: that is, you don't need activate to set metadata afaict |
| 12:06 | <philipj> | annevk: right, you don't, but our thinking has been that the session needs to become active (by explicit or implicit activation) before any UI is shown |
| 12:07 | <annevk> | ah right |
| 12:07 | <davve> | and remote control events hooked up in this case. |
| 12:07 | <philipj> | I mean that's not set in stone, but it's the model I think we've all had in mind so far |
| 12:09 | <philipj> | annevk: if after reading our walls of text you don't feel strongly then don't feel like you have to pick sides :) |
| 12:10 | <annevk> | https://extensiblewebmanifesto.org/ makes me think we should go with whatever iOS and Android do |
| 12:11 | <annevk> | it seems the issues richt is alluding to could be avoided by the UA first requiring the user to interact with an app before granting it "activate", based on some heuristics |
| 12:11 | <annevk> | I guess it might be worth asking the iOS/Android folks if they like the current setup |
| 12:11 | <philipj> | annevk: requiring a user interaction for activate() has crossed my mind |
| 12:13 | <philipj> | we haven't experimented, but I don't think iOS/Android has that kind of restriction |
| 12:17 | <davve> | On iOS you may call AVAudioSession.sharedInstance().setActive(true) right when your app is shown to silence whatever was playing. |
| 12:19 | <philipj> | requiring the tab to be visible would be a smaller restriction |
| 12:48 | <annevk> | visible + focus |
| 12:55 | <JakeA> | annevk: "The idea is to have some kind of new API that can be used to store a small amount of synchronization data (perhaps writeonly to avoid abuse)" - notifications have .data, is generalising this what you were thinking? As in, a (potentially) disk-based sorta-weakmap? |
| 12:55 | <JakeA> | Seeing people abuse the cache API for key/value storage because IDB's too hard makes me sad, but I totally get it |
| 13:00 | <annevk> | JakeA: yeah, a simple setPersistentData() thingie and having fetch() accept it for network transfer |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | JakeA: just so you can store some state like progress in a game that isn't wiped when the user runs out of storage |
| 13:01 | <annevk> | JakeA: prolly capped at a MiB or less |
| 13:58 | <annevk> | Location is so whacky :-( |
| 14:01 | <JonathanNeal> | Why has :any-link seen such poor browser adoption? |
| 14:03 | <darobin> | I think people are just generally happy selecting for a, or failing that a[href] |
| 14:04 | <darobin> | I mean :any-link is slightly neater, but it's not that huge of a difference |
| 14:04 | <bid> | hi, since XMLHttpRequest.async = false is deprecated, with what i can replace the behavior? i need to do a "blocking" operation can't change to none blocking... :\ |
| 14:09 | <annevk> | JonathanNeal: Mozilla has supported a prefixed variant since forever |
| 14:09 | <annevk> | JonathanNeal: submit a patch to unprefix it if that hasn't happened yet? |
| 14:09 | <JonathanNeal> | darobin: do you know why :link was even a thing? Are there other visually similar elements that match :link? |
| 14:09 | <annevk> | bid: yes you can |
| 14:12 | <bid> | annevk: how? |
| 14:13 | <annevk> | depends on the situation |
| 14:14 | <darobin> | JonathanNeal: well, :link should really just be called :unvisited |
| 14:14 | <darobin> | beyond that, I think it was just premature generalisation |
| 14:16 | <bid> | annevk: i am loading a webpage using node.js and jsdom. some of the pages i am loading require me to emulate file system actions like "ls -al" so i fugure i will use Ajax, since i need the data "now" i can't do it in async way. and i can't change the way the pages works since the idea is to emulate the way they rans on production system. i hope it is clear :\ |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | that you need the data synchronous is a bug in your software |
| 14:17 | <JonathanNeal> | Ah. Perhaps :any-link would have made more sense paired with an :unvisited pseudo-class cloning :link |
| 14:17 | <Ms2ger> | Also, what's with the respec plugging on my Anolis thread? BS is a much more sensible replacement |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | Who is doing that? |
| 14:23 | <darobin> | Ms2ger: take it up with Marcos |
| 14:23 | <darobin> | you'll be wrong, but take it up with Marcos ;) |
| 14:24 | <Ms2ger> | I wa talking about you too :) |
| 14:24 | <darobin> | I didn't plug nothing man |
| 14:24 | <darobin> | I just let people pick their thing |
| 14:25 | <darobin> | if you like Python then Bikeshed is great, if you're more into Web technologies then ReSpec might come more naturally |
| 14:25 | <darobin> | just sayin' |
| 14:26 | <darobin> | JonathanNeal: I'm not sure that there'd be value in having a :unvisited that's exactly the same as :link; it's not like it's the only misnomer in the platform |
| 14:26 | <Ms2ger> | Let's fix Referer |
| 14:26 | <annevk> | if you're into fouc, non-working fragment identifiers, and old-fashioned API markup I guess ReSpec is pretty awesome |
| 14:26 | <JonathanNeal> | Yea, this isn’t something commonly upsetting websites either. I only noticed it because it was so similar to a problem I was having with :focus and :hover. |
| 14:27 | <darobin> | annevk: I haven't seen a fouc in a long time, but maybe that's just me; frags have worked forever, newer-style WebIDL has landed... |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | I frequently have to hit enter again in the address bar to get where I want to be |
| 14:27 | <darobin> | never seen that problem |
| 14:27 | <JonathanNeal> | I was QA’ing a beautiful site that totally failed me with keyboard navigation. Most of my bugs boiled down to the solution: “add :focus support”. |
| 14:27 | <darobin> | I mean, not since it was fixed in 2010 or some such |
| 14:28 | <darobin> | bid: I really see no reason to do what you're doing, especially if you're loading with jsdom — you should have enough control to do whatever you want and not need anything sync |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | I see fouc all the time |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | with ReSpec |
| 14:29 | <JonathanNeal> | I see minute-ouc on mobile |
| 14:29 | <annevk> | can't reproduce the fragment issue at the moment |
| 14:29 | <philipj> | darobin: I've seen the fragment problem from time to time, doesn't seem to end up exactly at the right place |
| 14:29 | <philipj> | never filed a bug when it's happened, of course |
| 14:30 | <philipj> | an fouc is the norm for respec isn't it? when doesn't it happen? |
| 14:30 | <darobin> | philipj: the only cases in which I've seen the fragment problem today are not ReSpec-specific, it's people tacking their own script processing on at the end |
| 14:30 | <Ms2ger> | Perhaps in w3c offices :) |
| 14:30 | <darobin> | I don't get FOUCs, but maybe it's because it's always hot in cache |
| 14:30 | darobin | doesn't work in a W3C office |
| 14:31 | <bid> | beside the qustion if it is good design. is there a way to query the server in a blocking way? |
| 14:31 | <JonathanNeal> | I wrote about my issue with :hover here and proposed a new pseudo-class to target :focus and :hover jointly. http://discourse.specifiction.org/t/a-common-pseudo-class-for-hover-and-focus/877/3 |
| 14:32 | <darobin> | bid: well... you can navigate |
| 14:33 | <bid> | darobin: there is a reason, for a start the main thing is to auto QA the javascript. so i can't change the source files. |
| 14:33 | <bid> | what do you mean navigate? |
| 14:33 | <darobin> | like go to a completely different page; the server pushing HTML to you can block all it wants |
| 14:33 | <JonathanNeal> | annevk: ^ :enter addresses a far more prevelent issue on sites than :link/:visited - thoughts? |
| 14:33 | <darobin> | bid: none of that sounds like it needs sync |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | JonathanNeal: I remember proposing something like that ages ago, not sure why it didn't happen |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | JonathanNeal: www-style is still the best place for those discussions |
| 14:35 | <JonathanNeal> | annevk: Nice, I’d love to see those discussions. I wrote a polyfill, too https://github.com/jonathantneal/postcss-pseudo-class-enter I’ll try to get on that list and pitch this there as well. |
| 14:37 | <bid> | darobin: i am emulating javascript that runs inside exe file. since it is running on the server side and in "production" the javascript rans in the exe file and have access to different windows api... in the server side (node+jsdom) i need to emulate the windows api behavior... this is the use case... |
| 14:37 | <JakeA> | JonathanNeal: The problem I have is :focus plays badly with click handlers |
| 14:38 | <JakeA> | I end up calling blur() to un-stick the style |
| 14:38 | <JakeA> | or avoiding :focus altogether. Both options bad. |
| 14:38 | <JakeA> | I'd like a :tab-focus pseudo to differentiate between a general :focus and a keyboard focus |
| 14:40 | <JonathanNeal> | JakeA: I’ve seen something like with a list of hash links. Once one link is clicked, it holds focus, and once I hover over other elements, I get the illusion of two hovered elements. |
| 14:40 | <JonathanNeal> | Is that similar to what you’re describing? |
| 14:40 | <JakeA> | exactly |
| 14:40 | <darobin> | bid: sorry, your situation seems to be pretty unusual, I don't think I can help you |
| 14:41 | <bid> | yes it is... :) so what is the way to bypass and do sync operations? |
| 14:41 | <bid> | i tried using workers but in jsdom i have issues with it.. |
| 14:41 | <bid> | not sure why yet... |
| 14:41 | <Sebmaster> | bid: worker support isnt in jsdom |
| 14:42 | <bid> | Sebmaster: can you elaborate? |
| 14:43 | <Sebmaster> | bid: jsdom doesn't support Worker; it's kinda hard to do in node.js since you need to spawn a new process |
| 14:45 | <bid> | ok.. so what are the alternative? |
| 14:45 | <Ms2ger> | Process? |
| 14:46 | <bid> | ? |
| 14:48 | <JonathanNeal> | JakeA: it’s almost like we want elements to drop :focus on :activate. |
| 14:48 | <JonathanNeal> | Except we don’t want to lose our tab position. |
| 14:49 | <JakeA> | right, although I don't know if I want :focus gone after :activate if the focus was via keyboard |
| 14:52 | <darobin> | Sebmaster: what problem are you seeing with starting a new process? it's not hard. Is it for communication? |
| 14:53 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: was https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26338#c6 ever banned? |
| 14:53 | <Sebmaster> | darobin: we'd need to start a new process, and initialize jsdom in it (targeted specifically to a worker) and then run the code; postMessage()'ing is gonna be the next problem afterwards |
| 14:54 | <darobin> | Sebmaster: I'm not saying it doesn't require work :) But it doesn't seem problematic in itself |
| 14:54 | <Sebmaster> | darobin: yeah, but there's just so much more important stuff in jsdom than that to do |
| 14:56 | <darobin> | Sebmaster: sure, I was just reacting to the fact that you seems to be pointing at a serious issue; I completely understand that it takes time |
| 14:56 | <darobin> | (and isn't a priority) |
| 14:57 | <Sebmaster> | nah i was just trying to express that it's not going to happen anytime soon in jsdom |
| 14:57 | <Sebmaster> | (at least from an official side, PRs might change that easily) |
| 14:57 | <JakeA> | bid: Is this what you're looking for? https://github.com/driverdan/node-XMLHttpRequest |
| 14:59 | <Sebmaster> | bid: jsdom should still support synchronous XHR anyways |
| 14:59 | <Sebmaster> | i dont think we'll forcibly remove it |
| 15:27 | <Domenic> | annevk: does <sdfoasdfsf> close <p>s or is that just <div>? |
| 15:28 | <annevk> | Domenic: just <div> |
| 15:28 | <Domenic> | hmm I see |
| 15:28 | <annevk> | Domenic: currently custom elements parse like <sdfoasdfsf> |
| 15:31 | <bid> | Sebmaster: strange it is not. maybe it's becuase iam usign node and not io.js? its jsdom version 3.1.2 |
| 15:31 | <Domenic> | annevk: what about <asfdsf> and <span>? |
| 15:32 | <Sebmaster> | bid: it may just be that we don't implement the async attribute |
| 15:32 | <Sebmaster> | but it should work in the constructor |
| 15:33 | <bid> | i just open it with ('get',sUrl, false) and than send(null) |
| 15:33 | <Sebmaster> | that should work |
| 15:33 | <bid> | it freezes |
| 15:33 | <Sebmaster> | well... yeah |
| 15:33 | <Sebmaster> | it's synchronous |
| 15:33 | <bid> | i mean it freez for good. as if the node just crashs,,, |
| 15:34 | <bid> | maybe i have js error that cause it to fail... its very hared to debug jsdom |
| 15:35 | <Sebmaster> | bid: might be a bug in node-xmlhttprequest |
| 15:35 | <Sebmaster> | since we basically just import that as-is |
| 15:36 | <bid> | ok, thanks. |
| 15:37 | <bid> | i will play with it some more. |
| 15:37 | <bid> | will udpate |
| 15:40 | <JonathanNeal> | annevk: thanks for your advice. I’ve sent my issue and pitch to www-style. I still have hope that Specifiction becomes a hub. |
| 15:55 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: yeah I banned that bugzilla account already |
| 15:55 | <MikeSmith> | a long time ago I think |
| 16:10 | <annevk> | Domenic: I think <span> might be special |
| 16:10 | <annevk> | Domenic: look at the parser categories |
| 16:11 | <annevk> | Domenic: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#the-stack-of-open-elements |
| 16:11 | <annevk> | Domenic: it seems <span> is only special inside foreign content, otherwise the same as <asfdsf> |
| 16:12 | <annevk> | Domenic: (only hit for "span" in that section) |
| 16:13 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: kk |
| 18:02 | <annevk> | Sebmaster: did you run into any issues with the "@ flag" in the URL Standard? |
| 18:02 | <annevk> | Sebmaster: iirc Sam said there was a bug there, but it's not reported and I'm not quite sure what it is |
| 18:02 | <Sebmaster> | annevk: not that i know of... yet? |
| 18:03 | <Sebmaster> | i havent thought much about it, just implemented stupidly according to spec and tests work |
| 18:03 | <Sebmaster> | so it might be something untested... or not at all |
| 18:04 | <annevk> | Sebmaster: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20141119#l-235 |
| 18:04 | <annevk> | I guess I should look into that tomorrow |
| 18:05 | <annevk> | I'm going through the open bugs once more |
| 18:05 | <annevk> | Another thing I plan on fixing is (new URL("test", "test://x/")).href === "test://x/test" |
| 18:06 | <annevk> | But that's a bit harder |
| 18:07 | <annevk> | Sebmaster: I also wrote some extra tests today: https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1902 |
| 18:08 | <annevk> | (And new specification text. Apparently all URLs can handle relative fragments.) |
| 18:08 | <Sebmaster> | annevk: do you have some plan for fixing windows paths yet? |
| 18:08 | <annevk> | Sebmaster: not how, just that I want to |
| 18:08 | <Sebmaster> | lemme find my commit |
| 18:09 | <Sebmaster> | annevk: https://github.com/jsdom/whatwg-url/commit/5be541eee4a7fff33278d2cc2840ea283a7436b9 was my start |
| 18:09 | <Sebmaster> | but its incomplete |
| 18:09 | <Sebmaster> | if i remember correctly you'd need to extend the conditions there |
| 18:10 | <annevk> | Yeah Domenic showed me that and I think pointed to some issues with it too |
| 18:11 | <annevk> | Sebmaster: perhaps we should store Windows drive letters on the URL directly so they become more easy to work with... |
| 18:12 | <annevk> | Anyway, file URLs are last in the list of parser bugs I want to fix |
| 18:12 | <annevk> | But I'll get to them this summer |
| 18:13 | <Sebmaster> | looking forward to it |
| 18:14 | <Sebmaster> | i think it's something which fails a lot of tests in jsdom, but i havent examined if they're bugs somewhere else yet |
| 18:17 | <annevk> | Sebmaster: you're of course encouraged to try sort out the spec for this yourself and make a PR ;-) |
| 18:17 | <Sebmaster> | yeah, ill see if i can fix my PR up to at least pass the tests, maybe it's useful to you then |
| 18:18 | <Sebmaster> | oh yeah, annevk i had two more untested things i think |
| 18:18 | <Sebmaster> | lemme check |
| 18:19 | <Sebmaster> | annevk: oh yeah, the encoding stuff you changed recently isnt tested by web-platform-tests yet |
| 18:19 | <Sebmaster> | i currently just added https://github.com/jsdom/whatwg-url/blob/master/test/additional-tests.txt to our internal tests |
| 18:22 | <annevk> | Sebmaster: hmm yeah, I guess all the ASCII chars need testing |
| 18:23 | <annevk> | I guess I should write some exhuastive test for that too, but also not today |
| 23:52 | jwalden | wonders how cynical he should be about Apple's unilateral <link rel="icon" mask> thingamabob |
| 23:54 | <jarek> | Hi |
| 23:55 | <jarek> | On Chrome element.nodeName and element.tagName are returning uppercase strings for HTML elements (e.g. "BODY") and lowercase strings for SVG elements inside HTML (e.g. "rect") |
| 23:56 | <jarek> | Is this standard behavior? If so, are there any plans to introduce a new property that would be more consistent? |
| 23:59 | <jarek> | Google shows 113,000 results for "nodeName.toLowerCase()" query |
| 23:59 | <boogyman> | just pass it through a normalization workflow (toLowerCase() or toUpperCase()) before evaluation. |