| 00:07 | <Krinkle> | annevk: Are we getting any closer to figuring out the fetch/abort situation? |
| 00:08 | <Krinkle> | I'm starting to think that something is better than nothing. I rarely go down that path, but it seems we're looking for a holy grail that doesn't exist. |
| 00:41 | <miketaylr> | zcorpon: oops, missed ur pings |
| 00:41 | <miketaylr> | and you're not here so unless you read logs, i'll find you tomorrow |
| 06:01 | <annevk> | Krinkle_: slowly |
| 06:01 | <annevk> | Krinkle_: JakeA is in charge |
| 06:01 | <annevk> | miketaylr: he reads the logs |
| 06:31 | <JakeA> | Krinkle: we're investigating cancelable promises first. If that doesn't work we have back-up plans. At the very least, the underlying streams will be terminateable |
| 06:34 | <daurnimator> | Krinkle_ / JakeA, got a summary of the problem? |
| 06:36 | <JakeA> | daurnimator: the problem is the request part of fetch(url) isn't abortable, neither are the body readers such as response.json() |
| 06:37 | <daurnimator> | ah okay; I was thinking of trying to solve my GC observability woes by performing requests; which according to the fetch spec: will be aborted if the request is collected; sounded like it might be related |
| 07:03 | <daurnimator> | JakeA: it certainly is an interesting question in general |
| 07:04 | <daurnimator> | http requests can be hard to abort => for HTTP/1.1, what if it's already sent, and something has been pipelined after it? the responses still has to be read off the socket |
| 07:04 | <daurnimator> | for http2 you can at least send a RST_STREAM |
| 07:05 | <daurnimator> | but at the high level; yeah, you'll want cancels to cascade; or the code isn't composable |
| 07:05 | <daurnimator> | which in the case of JS, implies that promise chains are cancelable |
| 07:07 | <JakeA> | daurnimator: yeah, from a js point of view you'd receive no further data, although it may not actually cancel the underlying request |
| 07:08 | <daurnimator> | JakeA: which brings up the question of why you want to bother cancelling in the first place if the server still has to send the reply, and the client still has to process it :P |
| 07:10 | <JakeA> | daurnimator: if it's a large resource such as a video, you'd want to cancel that. And as you say, http/2 has a good answer here |
| 07:11 | <daurnimator> | JakeA: true. the answer I was thinking of was it means that you won't need to bother following any redirects |
| 07:16 | <daurnimator> | this has brought up some good points for me to ponder on |
| 07:17 | <daurnimator> | 'composibility of cancelability' => what is the smallest unit you can cancel => how can you propagate => how should it flow across error handling |
| 07:35 | <annevk> | Interesting differences between https://tools.ietf.org/html/std68 and https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5234 |
| 07:35 | <annevk> | Latter seems more useful, but former is more permanent reference... |
| 07:57 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: I guess that fact you're spending time looking at those means you have plans to do something that would necessitate referencing them |
| 08:05 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan, https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/5723 is back to you |
| 08:09 | <zcorpan> | Ms2ger: ports[http][1] is unnecessary but i suppose it's not a problem to have it there, right? |
| 08:10 | <Ms2ger> | Is it unnecessary? |
| 08:11 | <Ms2ger> | These run on port 8000 in automation |
| 08:11 | <zcorpan> | yeah, the test just needs cross-origin, which domains[www1] achieves already. no need to also have a different port |
| 08:11 | <Ms2ger> | Wouldn't {{domains[www1]}} just try port 80, which may or may not be mapped to wpt? |
| 08:12 | <zcorpan> | oh. yeah you're right |
| 08:12 | <Ms2ger> | Thanks, I like to be right :) |
| 08:13 | <zcorpan> | though it's still a different port compared to 8000 :-) |
| 08:13 | <zcorpan> | the docs for wptserve says ports[0] might be the only port, but i suppose other tests need another port also |
| 08:16 | <Ms2ger> | Calling jgraham |
| 08:19 | <zcorpan> | miketaylr: o/ |
| 08:23 | <jgraham> | Ms2ger: Hmm? |
| 08:23 | <Ms2ger> | Ports usage in https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/5723 |
| 08:24 | <jgraham> | Yeah, you have to specify a port, but it could be [0] there |
| 08:35 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: but [1] is not a problem, is it? |
| 08:35 | <jgraham> | No, there should always be a port [1] |
| 08:35 | <jgraham> | Except on https, perhaps |
| 08:36 | <zcorpan> | jgraham: the wptserve docs doesn't give such great confidence there will be another port :-) |
| 08:38 | <jgraham> | It seems like the wptserve docs shouldn't describe the details of the wpt setup since the server could be used in other contexts |
| 08:39 | <zcorpan> | i suppose |
| 08:39 | <jgraham> | Probably the testtwf docs should be improved |
| 10:53 | <annevk> | If anyone has ideas around compensating folks for doing standards work: https://twitter.com/annevk/status/636847756737388544 |
| 12:25 | <hallvors> | Another quick XHR test review https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/5758 - hope it's quick anyway :) |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | hallvors: r+ |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | hallvors: also, thank you |
| 13:08 | <annevk> | hallvors: if you have ideas btw how to reuse these tests for fetch()... that'd be great |
| 13:30 | <annevk> | More evidence why IDL needs internal slots: https://github.com/w3c/mediacapture-main/issues/232#issuecomment-132898987 |
| 13:30 | <annevk> | heycam: ^^ |
| 13:31 | <heycam> | annevk: I'm coming around on the idea of internal slots. doing some SVG rewording recently it would've been easier than writing a bunch of prose defining internal values associated with an object |
| 13:33 | <annevk> | aah yes, once you start writing proper specs the need is kind of self-evident :-P |
| 13:33 | <annevk> | good |
| 13:38 | <heycam> | :) |
| 13:38 | <heycam> | annevk, however sometimes I also wanted something like internal slots, but not using IDL values. so abstract list types or something. |
| 13:39 | <heycam> | which the ES spec does too, but then I'm not sure how well that fits with defining the internal slots in the IDL itself |
| 13:39 | <annevk> | heycam: I think in the end IDL has to define the meta-language for all specifications |
| 13:39 | <annevk> | heycam: including such constructs |
| 13:39 | <heycam> | ok |
| 13:40 | <heycam> | maybe we can just reuse the ES ones for those abstract types |
| 13:40 | <annevk> | Yeah, with an IDL flavor same as we do with Uint8Array et al |
| 13:40 | <heycam> | yeah ok |
| 13:41 | heycam | returns to SVG spec hacking |
| 14:15 | <annevk> | I wrote up a proposal for compensating folks to do standards work: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/standards-diversity-grants |
| 14:15 | <annevk> | I'm not sure yet whether I can actually convince my employer to do this, mind you |
| 14:16 | <wanderview> | annevk: I guess my concern is how real is that work without a browser vendor really behind it willing to do implementation? |
| 14:16 | <wanderview> | maybe thats not a valid concern |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | I actually worked on URL for a while with a grant |
| 14:17 | <wanderview> | or maybe there is a difference between archaeology-type spec work and new-feature-type spec work |
| 14:17 | <annevk> | I dunno, fixing open issues and such and writing tests always seems helpful |
| 14:17 | <darobin> | agreed |
| 14:17 | <darobin> | a grant is a good idea |
| 14:17 | <darobin> | I think it would likely work best if it's not "come up with a new standard" but rather work on existing issues and the such |
| 14:17 | <darobin> | at least at first |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 14:18 | <darobin> | you can't grab someone with no clue about standards and make them write one, it wouldn't be nice to anyone |
| 14:18 | <darobin> | but you can get them to learn a lot by fixing specifics; then they become employable and you start having diversity without grants |
| 14:19 | <darobin> | you shouldn't make that Mozilla-only |
| 14:19 | <darobin> | I would expect other companies could chip in |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | my thinking was that it would be easier to start this way |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | they can always donate to MoFo and earmark it or some such |
| 14:20 | <darobin> | I guess yeah |
| 14:20 | <darobin> | it sure is easier to start with just the one person and just the one donor; if it works it'll convince people on its own |
| 14:22 | <jgraham> | So there are some issues with the details there. "You must have a GH id" is biasing the pool (people that already wok in Open Source, people that live in countries that have high GH usage, people that aren't shy of publishing their projects, people that don't prefer BitBucket or GitLab or whatever) |
| 14:22 | <jgraham> | Positive Discrimination is, at least, a way to generate controversy |
| 14:22 | <wanderview> | must be willing to have a GH account? |
| 14:22 | <darobin> | I think biasing against people who prefer BitBucker is a feature :) |
| 14:23 | <wanderview> | seems GH is required by virtue of us hosting the specs there |
| 14:23 | <nox> | Why? |
| 14:23 | <jgraham> | GH is required to make contributions, but there's no reason to only accept applicants who already have an account |
| 14:24 | <darobin> | I would not list strict requirements on any part, you just want someone who'll do whatever it takes to make something useful |
| 14:24 | <annevk> | jgraham: seems like it should be easy to create an account? |
| 14:24 | <jgraham> | The implication is that your credibility will be judged on the basis of your GH profile |
| 14:24 | <annevk> | I see |
| 14:24 | <darobin> | yeah |
| 14:24 | <annevk> | jgraham: removed |
| 14:24 | <darobin> | I mean if the bar is "you must be able to create a GitHub account" I would say it's pretty low |
| 14:24 | <darobin> | :) |
| 14:24 | <gsnedders> | darobin: does the Great Firewall not block GH? |
| 14:24 | <annevk> | yeah, but indeed then it doesn't make sense to have it as part of the proposal |
| 14:25 | <darobin> | gsnedders: sometimes it does, but not regularly |
| 14:25 | <jgraham> | Asking people to come up with their own plan and timeline is also probably a source of bias |
| 14:25 | <wanderview> | in theory anyone should be able to contribute using git offline and send patches to someone else to push for them |
| 14:26 | <annevk> | jgraham: other diversity grants asked for the same thing, but open to suggestions |
| 14:26 | <darobin> | part of the problem is that the people who are already able to identify useful work areas they could contribute to are already in the loop |
| 14:26 | <darobin> | I'm guessing those aren't he ones you actually want |
| 14:26 | <darobin> | given how obscure the world of standards is you might want to ask the candidate to demonstrate a willingness to help the Web platform or something like that |
| 14:27 | <darobin> | explain what their vision of the Web is, what they'd expect from Web tech, what they'd like to see that they aren't seeing yet |
| 14:27 | <darobin> | problems they've had, etc. |
| 14:27 | <jgraham> | Well also I expect that the confidence to write up a proposal is correlated with the probability of being in a group that is already well represented |
| 14:27 | <darobin> | pick someone with an interesting vision and the requisite tech background; the rest they'll have to pick up on the job |
| 14:27 | <wanderview> | clearly experience in bikeshedding should be on there :-) |
| 14:28 | <darobin> | yeah |
| 14:28 | <darobin> | 1. Explain in 2500 words or more which colour the bike shed should be? |
| 14:28 | <darobin> | 2. Detail how your coding style is vastly superior to everyone else's. |
| 14:28 | <zcorpan> | 3. ??? |
| 14:28 | <zcorpan> | 4. Profit! |
| 14:29 | <darobin> | 3. What is the best way to encode CSS and JSON in an XML syntax? |
| 14:29 | <jgraham> | Maybe the entrance exam should just be an argument with TabAtkins about why his indenting preferences are insane |
| 14:29 | <TabAtkins> | I'LL FIGHT YOU |
| 14:30 | <darobin> | I wasn't aware there was a pattern to them |
| 14:30 | <TabAtkins> | tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment |
| 14:30 | <TabAtkins> | Like a sane person |
| 14:30 | <wanderview> | fixing indentation could be a grant project |
| 14:30 | <gsnedders> | darobin: how do you best encode arbitrary semantics? |
| 14:30 | <darobin> | gsnedders: ooh that's a good one |
| 14:30 | <tobie> | by "underrepresented group," do you mean pretty much anyone that's not an asshole or is this a more traditional definition of the term? |
| 14:30 | <darobin> | put differently "Create a serialisation format for RDF." |
| 14:30 | <gsnedders> | darobin: (I'll argue that the answer depends on the goal) |
| 14:31 | <gsnedders> | darobin: BUT RDF/XML IS GREAT?! |
| 14:31 | <jgraham> | annevk: Anyway, I would say that if you want to make this work you should have some preprepared projects that people can apply to |
| 14:31 | <darobin> | gsnedders: only if you use XML 1.1! |
| 14:31 | <jgraham> | Rather than just saying "make something up" |
| 14:31 | <gsnedders> | darobin: i prefer 1.0 5th ed |
| 14:31 | <jgraham> | annevk: Also talk to dianeb and Mark Surman, perhaps |
| 14:31 | <darobin> | gsnedders: Philistine |
| 14:32 | zcorpan | prefers Unicode 3.0 |
| 14:32 | <annevk> | jgraham: we could perhaps agree on some keyword to annotate issues with that would be good to tackle for independent contributors? |
| 14:32 | <jgraham> | annevk: web-platform-tests has occasionally marked issues with difficulty:easy |
| 14:32 | <gsnedders> | darobin: "convert RDF/XML to Turtle" |
| 14:33 | <darobin> | gsnedders: "Define a CSS syntax for RDF." |
| 14:33 | <jgraham> | annevk: This is not entirely unlike the TestTWF MDN fellowship that Ben Boyle did |
| 14:33 | <annevk> | jgraham: not sure it has to be easy, just something you could work on for a month or so |
| 14:33 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: BTW, is there any off-the-shelf way to get screenshots for CSS tests? |
| 14:33 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: What do you mean? wptrunner supports CSS tests |
| 14:33 | <zcorpan> | annevk: difficulty:easy means "good first bug" |
| 14:33 | <darobin> | yeah |
| 14:33 | <gsnedders> | darobin: "… as this is a vital missing link, having already replaced SQL" |
| 14:33 | <darobin> | lol |
| 14:33 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: I mean I actually want some way to get the actual screenshots of things that aren't reftests. |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | tobie: I basically want to say non-cis white male |
| 14:34 | <darobin> | annevk: I think tobie knew that :) |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | tobie: but it was suggested to me this is a better way of putting that |
| 14:34 | <gsnedders> | annevk: you missed the hetero part |
| 14:34 | <tobie> | I was just being an asshole myself. :) |
| 14:34 | <darobin> | non-cis doesn't include hetero these days? |
| 14:34 | <darobin> | I mean cis |
| 14:34 | <wanderview> | annevk: I commented on your gist about mailing list vs gh issues |
| 14:35 | <gsnedders> | darobin: cis only refers to gender, afaik |
| 14:35 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: You could hack wptrunner to do that perhaps, but it's not off the shelf |
| 14:35 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: right, that's what I thought |
| 14:35 | <tobie> | annevk: one of the benefits of more diversity is to have a new look at things, if that person gets do to work pre-decided by someone else, that sort of defeats the purpose |
| 14:35 | <darobin> | gsnedders: I guess it depends on if you consider gender to include orientation — it's a very old debate :) |
| 14:35 | <darobin> | cf Wittig, etc. |
| 14:35 | <annevk> | wanderview: is this how GH notifications work these days? |
| 14:36 | <tobie> | ^ in reaction to jgraham's suggestions to have topics to choose from |
| 14:36 | <wanderview> | annevk: I've never received a notification for a gist before... so I didn't think they worked... sorry |
| 14:36 | <gsnedders> | darobin: true, though at least insofar as what I mostly hear people meaning by it, it doesn't… |
| 14:36 | gsnedders | hides |
| 14:36 | <darobin> | bikeshed all the genders! |
| 14:38 | <annevk> | wanderview: they used to, but they got removed at some point |
| 14:38 | <annevk> | wanderview: I was just making a joke about that |
| 14:38 | <wanderview> | ah |
| 14:39 | <wanderview> | annevk: I thought you were asking for feedback on the gist on twitter... but I see now you were just saying that was your thoughts... I should have just tweeted |
| 14:39 | wanderview | gets more coffee |
| 14:44 | <wanderview> | annevk: it would be nice if we had some central whatwg document that listed other specs to watch... so I could follow that and then know when to follow new repos |
| 14:45 | <annevk> | wanderview: there's https://resources.whatwg.org/biblio.json in https://github.com/whatwg/resources.whatwg.org |
| 14:46 | <jgraham> | On a somewhat related topic, in the next couple of days I'm planning to put together a session proposal for mozfest on how the open web is made, teaching about the standards process and how we achieve interop |
| 14:46 | <wanderview> | thanks |
| 14:46 | <annevk> | wow |
| 14:46 | <annevk> | that's great jgraham |
| 14:46 | <annevk> | will it be taped? |
| 14:47 | <jgraham> | I don't think so, mozfest sessions are supposed to be interactive rather than stand-at-the-front-and-talk |
| 14:48 | <jgraham> | I'd like to cover the process from having an idea to implementation in browsers, focusing on how discussions happen, to testing of the implementation, ending with an introduction to TestTWF as something that people can go away and explore more afterwardds |
| 14:48 | <jgraham> | So if anyone has any good ideas for fun learning activities to help people understand standardisation, please let me know |
| 14:49 | <darobin> | that's really cool jgraham |
| 14:49 | <astearns> | make sure when you get to testing the implementation you cover how testing uncovers specification bugs |
| 14:50 | <darobin> | maybe you should rope in Marcos, he's written a bunch of stuff about that |
| 14:50 | <darobin> | "fun learning activities to help people understand standardisation" |
| 14:50 | <darobin> | that sentence works if you drop either the first or the last word |
| 14:51 | <jgraham> | darobin: Well I asked and I was told that spending an hour telling people to poke their eyeballs with a fork was unlikely to get accepted |
| 14:51 | <darobin> | yeah, plus we're all against forking |
| 14:51 | <wanderview> | an hour learning the terminology used in specs |
| 14:51 | <darobin> | maybe chopsticks? |
| 14:51 | <gsnedders> | speaking of TestTWF, has that essentially died? nothing since Portland last year? nor any talk of anything new? |
| 14:51 | <wanderview> | "next we will discuss the difference between a 'flag' and a boolean value" |
| 14:51 | <jgraham> | wanderview: haha |
| 14:52 | <darobin> | well played wanderview |
| 14:52 | <darobin> | jgraham: do you have some notions of French? |
| 14:52 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: The series of events does seem to be pining for the fjords, yes |
| 14:52 | <darobin> | if so I might be able to unearth some pres I've given about standardisation |
| 14:52 | <wanderview> | terminology really is a huge barrier... but I have not way to teach it to someone other than to have them work with the specs for a while |
| 14:52 | <darobin> | but it's perhaps more geared towards explaining the concept to completely non-tech people |
| 14:52 | <jgraham> | darobin: I have the notion that it's a language principally spoken in Frace. I have very little understanding of it though ;) |
| 14:53 | <darobin> | yeah, so probably not helpful :) |
| 14:53 | <gsnedders> | jgraham, darobin: I thought that was the language of the Democratic Republic of the Congo? |
| 14:53 | <gsnedders> | France seems small in comparison. |
| 14:55 | <jgraham> | I was wondering who would point out something like that |
| 15:08 | <MikeSmith> | annevk: about https://etherpad.mozilla.org/standards-diversity-grants I would suggest not using the word "standards" but instead "new Web technologies" |
| 15:09 | <MikeSmith> | "creating specifications and tests for new Web technologies" |
| 15:11 | <MikeSmith> | "creating specifications and tests for new Web technologies (aka 'Web standards') intended to work interoperably in all browsers" |
| 15:12 | <MikeSmith> | s/tests/test suites/ |
| 15:16 | <zcorpan> | hmm, i kinda like the idea of killing <applet> altogether |
| 16:18 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: you sound like Ian Jacobs |
| 16:19 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: but maybe "Web platform diversity grants" is better |
| 16:19 | <annevk> | I dunno |
| 16:19 | <annevk> | I should have started with, why would it be better? |
| 16:20 | <MikeSmith> | Ian Jacobs sounds pretty good sometimes |
| 16:20 | <MikeSmith> | he can play the piano |
| 16:20 | <MikeSmith> | I just don't think most non-insane people get excited about the word "standards" |
| 16:21 | <MikeSmith> | they want to create stuff |
| 16:21 | <MikeSmith> | write stuff |
| 16:21 | <MikeSmith> | write specs, write tests |
| 16:22 | <MikeSmith> | or at least those at the people we want |
| 16:22 | <MikeSmith> | they have to be a little insane to want to write specs and write tests |
| 16:22 | <MikeSmith> | admittedly |
| 16:23 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, I'm bakeshedding |
| 16:23 | <zcorpan> | you have a bakeshed? |
| 16:26 | <MikeSmith> | yep, for clambaking |
| 21:06 | <annevk> | Not really mentioned through Ian's email, there's now https://github.com/whatwg/html and https://twitter.com/htmlstandard |
| 22:15 | <ato> | annevk: \o/ |