| 00:24 | <dbkaplun> | caitp: what should I include? Is that how everyone in WHATWG became a member? |
| 00:24 | <caitp> | that was a joke |
| 00:25 | <smaug____> | MikeSmith: I wonder which "standards group" they are talking about |
| 00:26 | <MikeSmith> | smaug____: slightlyoff's group I guess |
| 00:26 | <MikeSmith> | and dglazkov |
| 00:26 | <smaug____> | I reported similar bug to Google 20..hmm...13 I think, but it was fixed |
| 00:27 | <MikeSmith> | it may be that one's been fixed and he just hasn't updated that page I dunno |
| 00:27 | <MikeSmith> | I see now he actually reported it in 2013 |
| 00:28 | <slightlyoff> | There were 2 separate reports |
| 00:28 | <MikeSmith> | oh hey slightlyoff |
| 00:28 | <MikeSmith> | so is that blog post out of day? |
| 00:28 | <MikeSmith> | *date |
| 00:28 | <slightlyoff> | One was about "hotwording", which was fixed immediately, with full post-mortem, etc |
| 00:29 | MikeSmith | nods |
| 00:29 | <slightlyoff> | And which was mostly bad due to PNaCL binary download w/o consent |
| 00:31 | <MikeSmith> | yeah so that seems to be a different one than what he's describing |
| 00:32 | <slightlyoff> | I'm unclear about which crbug/patch is discussed in this post, and I'd be shocked if a paid-out bug bounty hadn't shipped a patch |
| 00:32 | <slightlyoff> | But stranger things have happened. |
| 00:32 | <slightlyoff> | Will look |
| 00:34 | <MikeSmith> | thanks |
| 00:34 | <slightlyoff> | I mean, they're reporting that sites that are running can do things |
| 00:34 | <slightlyoff> | Which is true, particularly that you've previously granted permission |
| 00:36 | <slightlyoff> | Origin A was granted permission, then origin A uses permission...hrmmm |
| 00:36 | <slightlyoff> | You can make a case about UI accordance here |
| 00:36 | <slightlyoff> | But it isn't obviously a bug |
| 00:36 | <MikeSmith> | I think that's it |
| 00:36 | <MikeSmith> | so yeah |
| 00:37 | <MikeSmith> | I guess it comes down to whether a normal user is going to be aware what's happening |
| 00:38 | <MikeSmith> | or what they are granting permission for |
| 00:38 | <MikeSmith> | the scope or duration of what they're granting |
| 00:38 | <MikeSmith> | anyway, the guy who wrote that post is the same who made UpUp |
| 00:39 | <MikeSmith> | he also makes a very good JS speech-recognition lib |
| 00:39 | <MikeSmith> | so he does know a thing or two about a thing or two |
| 01:33 | <Domenic> | dbkaplun: there is no formal concept of membership for WHATWG (and certainly no pay-to-play like other standards groups). If you are a member of the WHATWG community you can call yourself a member :) |
| 01:45 | <roc> | Domenic: you missed your chance to collect some easy money! |
| 01:58 | <caitp> | it's funny how it's called pay-to-play, since it seems like a lot of sometimes tedious and often thankless work |
| 02:13 | <dbkaplun> | Domenic: I want to participate more in the forming of HTML standards |
| 02:22 | <Domenic> | dbkaplun: that's great! We have some guidelines here for how to contribute https://github.com/whatwg/html/#contribution-opportunities |
| 02:44 | <dbkaplun> | OK I will take a look |
| 02:44 | <dbkaplun> | Thanks |
| 03:24 | <MikeSmith> | roc: thanks again for the heads-up about canvas.captureStream() the other day. I raised a webkit feature bug for it https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152591 as well as a "uservoice" thing for Edge https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/257854-microsoft-edge-developer/suggestions/11252697-video-capture-from-canvas |
| 03:25 | <roc> | great, thanks |
| 05:37 | <MikeSmith> | does anybody from Oracle participate in TC39 discussions/meetings? |
| 05:38 | <MikeSmith> | André Bargull? |
| 10:24 | <yoav> | Getting back to https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/395 |
| 10:25 | <yoav> | and wondering how I should add the list of keywords to <link>, <a> and <area> |
| 11:45 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, at https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/scripting.html#script-processing-src-prepare , the spec says something about cors and error reporting; what would that difference look like? |
| 11:45 | <Ms2ger> | (if you have a moment to spare) |
| 11:47 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/webappapis.html#report-the-error |
| 12:30 | <rits> | is <hgroup> supported? https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/115 because i found it's not, |
| 12:31 | <annevk> | rits: depends on how you define supported |
| 12:32 | <annevk> | rits: user agents clearly style it as display:block, but they probably don't do much more |
| 12:32 | <annevk> | rits: but the same goes for <section>, <article>, etc. |
| 12:33 | <rits> | annevk: i tried using it on firefox and chrome, it doesn't seem to work , http://www.sitepoint.com/html5-hgroup-element-dropped/ |
| 12:34 | <rits> | okay, then if it's not used, should it be removed then? |
| 12:35 | <annevk> | rits: what do you mean by it doesn't work? |
| 12:36 | <annevk> | rits: clearly user agents style, including Firefox and Chrome, style it |
| 12:38 | <rits> | annevk: i tried using it on browser, sorry i didn't knew it's used for styling |
| 12:39 | <annevk> | rits: it usually helps to compare against something you know is not supported |
| 12:39 | <annevk> | rits: e.g., <thisclearlyisnotimplemented> |
| 12:40 | <annevk> | rits: you'll find it renders differently from <hgroup> |
| 12:41 | <rits> | annevk: sorry, didn't got that |
| 12:44 | <rits> | annevk: then, a clear example needs to be added in the spec https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/115 |
| 12:46 | <annevk> | rits: so I think I was unclear |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | rits: <hgroup>, <article>, <section>, outline algorithm, etc. are all supported to some extent by user agents, but not fully |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | rits: it's not entirely clear whether they are ever going to be fully supported |
| 12:47 | <rits> | annevk: okay |
| 12:47 | <annevk> | rits: so perhaps we should deprecate them and move on, and rewrite the outline algorithm to be what it once was, just based on h1-h6 |
| 12:48 | <annevk> | rits: but that's a rather major change and nobody really wants to drive that |
| 12:48 | <annevk> | rits: I also suspect that nobody cares super strongly since there's a lot of other things to worry about |
| 12:49 | <rits> | annevk: yes, so it should be kept as is, then, it would be a big change otherwise |
| 14:31 | <wanderview> | annevk: is step 3.1 here adequate? https://w3c.github.io/webappsec-mixed-content/#should-block-fetch |
| 14:31 | <wanderview> | annevk: since the fetch() function mints a new Request wrapping the original request? |
| 14:32 | <wanderview> | and it seems fetch spec does not have the concept of "passthrough rqeuest" like MIX is using |
| 14:36 | Ms2ger | sighs |
| 14:37 | <wanderview> | annevk: JakeA: also, I |
| 14:37 | <wanderview> | I'm curious if this "passthrough request" concept is something that can be persisted in Cache API |
| 14:38 | <Ms2ger> | Anyone have Safari or IE on hand? |
| 14:40 | <Ms2ger> | Or know if either of them implements a@ping |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | wanderview: no answers at the moment 😟 |
| 14:50 | <Ms2ger> | (Got IE, still looking for Safari) |
| 14:50 | <annevk> | wanderview: guess that needs sorting among other things, list is getting long |
| 14:50 | <wanderview> | annevk: ok... not critical since no one implements MIX really for SW yet... I'll add to f2f as a low priority |
| 14:51 | <annevk> | wanderview: perhaps we should just never implement it |
| 14:51 | <wanderview> | annevk: people want it... its a reasonable use case |
| 14:51 | <annevk> | wanderview: definitely better for security |
| 14:52 | <annevk> | wanderview: disagree, only thing is that it might hurt adoption |
| 14:52 | <Ms2ger> | Hrm |
| 14:52 | <wanderview> | annevk: if you want to build a podcast player where all resources are hosted on just http... you need mixed content support |
| 14:52 | <Ms2ger> | Anyone know where the code is that handles [Reflect] in Chrome? |
| 14:53 | <annevk> | wanderview: you would not even be able to create UI around those resources, where do track names and such come from? |
| 14:55 | <wanderview> | annevk: this isn't supported via <audio> or <video>? |
| 14:58 | <Ms2ger> | Nevermind |
| 15:00 | <annevk> | wanderview: not enough to create a compelling podcast application |
| 15:00 | <wanderview> | annevk: how about images? should those just not work either? |
| 15:00 | <wanderview> | since images are probably the most common mixed content (I assume) |
| 15:01 | <nox> | Ms2ger: "[Reflect]"? Colour me interested. |
| 15:15 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, so what is the "navigate" algorithm's input? A https://fetch.spec.whatwg.org/#concept-request ? A URL string? A URL record? Any of the above? |
| 15:30 | <Ms2ger> | zcorpan gone yet? |
| 15:32 | <Ms2ger> | Anyone else know the "update the image data" algorithm? MikeSmith? |
| 15:33 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: a request, a response, or a history entry |
| 15:33 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: it's one of the things I want to refactor, but it's hard 😟 |
| 15:34 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, it seems to be called with urls too |
| 15:35 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: yeah I guess it is, those could be wrapped in a request though |
| 15:37 | <Ms2ger> | I guess it does that already in the not-javascript:/no-appcache case: 'If request is a URL, set request to a new request whose url is request.' |
| 15:38 | <Ms2ger> | I guess I should add "clarifying the spec" to my q1 goal about navigation |
| 15:39 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, I don't suppose I can bother you about images too? |
| 15:40 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: what about images? |
| 15:41 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: images that explain navigate? |
| 15:42 | <JakeA> | annevk: wanderview: In the podcast case it'd be reasonable to proxy xml for the episode data, but proxying MP3s would be $$$ |
| 15:49 | <Ms2ger> | annevk, no, the bit where the spec says "Resolve selected source, relative to the element, and let the result be absolute URL. If that is not successful, then ... queue a task to change the current request's current URL to absolute URL" |
| 15:49 | <annevk> | Ms2ger: ah, zcorpan can do that |
| 15:50 | <Ms2ger> | Yeah, but he has the unfortunate habit of not being online 24/7 :) |
| 15:50 | Ms2ger | files an issue |
| 15:57 | <annevk> | Domenic: any idea why https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/link-fixup.js is not changed whereas https://html.spec.whatwg.org/link-fixup.js is? |
| 15:57 | <annevk> | Domenic: html-build has not changed yet so something seems wrong, though once we change wattsi and html-build it won't matter |
| 15:57 | <annevk> | MikeSmith: ^^ |
| 15:58 | <Ms2ger> | "Let absolute URL be the absolute URL that would have resulted from resolving the URL specified by the src attribute's value relative to the media element when the src attribute was last changed." |
| 15:58 | Ms2ger | grumbles |
| 16:00 | <annevk> | nox: [Reflect] is sugar for HTML's reflect |
| 16:14 | <nox> | annevk: Yeah that's what I thought. I like that. |
| 16:15 | <Ms2ger> | I don't :) |
| 16:15 | <annevk> | nox: afaict you just want to express the world in IDL |
| 16:15 | <annevk> | [MakeItWorkDamnIt] |
| 16:15 | <nox> | annevk: The more code is generated in Servo, the better I feel. :P |
| 16:17 | <nox> | This one should stay an implementation detail in UAs though. |
| 16:19 | <caitp> | it might not hurt to annotate the reflection semantics in the interface text |
| 16:22 | <wanderview> | a [DTRT] would be nice |
| 16:32 | <Domenic> | annevk: no, that makes no sense; they should just be symlinks. Maybe we need to check the logs? Seems very bad. |
| 16:43 | <nox> | wanderview: DTRT? |
| 16:44 | <annevk> | caitp: you mean a bunch of comments? |
| 16:44 | <annevk> | caitp: sounds worth doing |
| 16:44 | <wanderview> | Do The Right Thing |
| 16:46 | <annevk> | Domenic: I don't really understand symlinks |
| 16:46 | <annevk> | Domenic: e.g., if I created a symlink, does it show up as a normal resource when I use ls? |
| 16:47 | <Domenic> | annevk: yes that is my impression |
| 16:47 | <caitp> | I was thinking just a no-op [Reflect] that just serves as a "hey, this attribute has a reflected DOM attribute, and this makes it obvious" |
| 16:48 | <caitp> | I dunno |
| 16:48 | <caitp> | maybe not worth it |
| 16:48 | <Domenic> | apache just serves whatever it finds at the corresponding location in the filesystem and doesn't distinguish file contents found from symlinks from that from normal files |
| 16:48 | <Domenic> | I agree moving Reflect to IDL might be nice |
| 16:48 | <annevk> | that's probably too confusing since all other IDL attributes do have an effect |
| 16:48 | <Domenic> | But there are actually a lot of variants |
| 16:48 | <Domenic> | [Reflect] |
| 16:48 | <Domenic> | [ReflectLimitedToNonNegativeIntegers] |
| 16:48 | <caitp> | Reflect=WeirdThingA |
| 16:48 | <Domenic> | [ReflectAsURL] |
| 16:48 | <annevk> | Domenic: so how do I know whether there's an actual resource in multipage/ or whether it's a symlink |
| 16:49 | <Ms2ger> | [ReflectAsListOfURLs] |
| 16:49 | <Domenic> | [ReflectWithAttributeName=accept_charset] (have to use underscores since IDL doesn't allow dashes in identifiers) |
| 16:49 | <caitp> | but since it could just be a no-op that doesn't result in any generated code, it could just be informative |
| 16:49 | <caitp> | idk |
| 16:49 | <Domenic> | [ReflectLimitedToKnownValues=value1,value2,value3] |
| 16:49 | <Domenic> | [ReflectLimitedToKnownValuesWhichAreNotAheadOfTimeListable] |
| 16:50 | <Domenic> | annevk: ls -la should tell you |
| 16:51 | <Domenic> | I could see some value in "// reflected" |
| 16:51 | <annevk> | Domenic: it does say link-fixup.js -> ../link-fixup.js |
| 16:51 | <Domenic> | But then you have to keep that in sync with the normative text |
| 16:51 | <Domenic> | annevk: then it's a symlink yeah... |
| 16:51 | <annevk> | Domenic: same for images and entities.json |
| 16:51 | <annevk> | Domenic: so why are the contents different... |
| 16:51 | <Domenic> | it should be impossible... |
| 16:51 | <annevk> | Domenic: cache |
| 16:51 | annevk | hits self |
| 16:52 | <Domenic> | phew |
| 17:06 | <nox> | Moving Reflect to IDL? |
| 17:07 | <nox> | IDL as in the spec, or IDL as in an extended attribute in HTML? |
| 17:07 | <nox> | Because [Reflect] doesn't make sense outside of the Element interface, right? |
| 17:08 | <nox> | Domenic: I was thinking it would describe which attribute it reflects, not how it does it. |
| 17:08 | <nox> | So [Reflect="content attribute name"]. |
| 17:12 | <Domenic> | nox: an extended attribute in HTML |
| 17:12 | <Domenic> | nox: if you do that there isn't sufficient information to code-gen |
| 17:12 | <Domenic> | nox: also IDL does not allow strings to appear on the right hand side of equals |
| 17:12 | <nox> | True. |
| 17:12 | <nox> | Reflect(…) then? |
| 17:13 | <Domenic> | Maybe yeah |
| 17:16 | <annevk> | spec-gen \o/ |
| 19:41 | <smaug____> | majidvp: I can't now recall, but did webkit folks or MS ever commented on scrollrestoration API ? |
| 19:42 | <smaug____> | in other words, should we expect still lots of changes |
| 19:42 | <smaug____> | since as of now, it is not behind any pref in gecko |
| 19:46 | <MikeSmith> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/34650915/it-seems-the-pre-flight-for-cors-doesnt-make-sense-is-it-a-joke |
| 20:07 | <mifaso> | hey does anyone know if its possible to use google maps api v3 to embed a view of mars? |
| 20:08 | <caitp> | might be slightly off-topic for the channel |
| 20:09 | <caitp> | but maybe someone knows |
| 20:09 | <mifaso> | idk where this would be topical |
| 20:10 | <mifaso> | i asked in #javascript too |
| 20:10 | <caitp> | probably the maps api mailing list |
| 20:11 | <caitp> | they might have an irc channel too I dunno |
| 20:22 | <mifaso> | ok thanks |
| 21:06 | <majidvp> | smaug____: I don't believe there has been any public signal from Edge or Webkit. |
| 21:07 | <majidvp> | But I have had offline discussion with MS engineers early in design process to ensure they are familiar with the work and their feedback is taken into account. |
| 21:09 | <majidvp> | The API has been in Chrome since M46 (2 stable releases) and it has a fairly small surface. |
| 21:09 | <majidvp> | So I don't expect any major changes at all. |
| 23:20 | <yoav> | Domenic: sorry for the build issues. I'm having trouble running the build locally (wattsi download fails with a weird curl error) |