| 08:20 | <ondras> | hmh, has "checked" been an HTMLInputElement's attribute for a long time? I thought this one is only present on [type=radio] and [type=checkbox] ... |
| 08:46 | <annevk> | ondras: they all share the same class, so yes |
| 08:49 | <ondras> | I am pretty certain I had a working (in Electron, few major versions ago) code that used `"checked" in node` to differentiate radios/checkboxes... |
| 08:51 | <annevk> | 2003 predates Electron, right? https://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-DOM-Level-2-HTML-20030109/html.html#ID-6043025 |
| 08:52 | <ondras> | yeah :-) |
| 08:52 | <ondras> | well obviously they got this wrong initially and fixed it afterwards. |
| 17:36 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: TV Text is alt which generally shouldn’t match the title I think |
| 17:37 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: also wanted to make it match what we before |
| 17:38 | <TabAtkins> | title="" and alt="" do different thing, yes. But I was given to understand that <title> on an SVG was appropriate for "alt text" in a11y tools. Is this wrong? |
| 17:39 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: maybe, but it can output <img> too |
| 17:39 | <TabAtkins> | Sure, but the code isn't using <img title> at all. |
| 17:39 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: I could revert the inline SVG bits though |
| 17:39 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: it is? |
| 17:40 | <TabAtkins> | Sigh, I'm blind. |
| 17:40 | <TabAtkins> | Hm then. |
| 17:40 | <TabAtkins> | Okay, so I'm not a fan of the Title vs Text naming distinction here, but I'll do some research and see what I want to do. |
| 17:41 | <TabAtkins> | Hm, per https://a11yproject.com/posts/title-attributes/ title= and alt= should be identical if you feel the need to use title= at all |
| 17:43 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: Hmm the content is equivalent |
| 17:44 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: the difference is mainly about it appearing inline or not |
| 17:45 | <TabAtkins> | Right. |
| 17:46 | <TabAtkins> | So, to the best of my knowledge: on <img>, should use identical title= and alt= (they convey same information in different modalities, and dont' interfere with each other in screen readers); on <svg>, a <title> child is sufficient for both. |
| 17:48 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: I meant the diff between alt and title HTML has for this today, to be clear |
| 19:13 | <bathos> | Last I checked, some agents (a) don’t read svg <title> and so need alt while others (b) will read both alt and <title>. So I stopped using <title>, since alt worked the same everywhere. |
| 19:14 | <bathos> | This was a few years back so I don’t know if that’s still useful info. |
| 19:55 | <bathos> | (phrased that ambiguously I just realized — in (b) I meant reading both of them if both were present. so it was no-win — using <title> with no fallback could lead to no title, while using <title> with a fallback could lead to the title being announced twice.) |
| 20:00 | <annevk> | bathos: thanks, I guess that’s worth looking into, though WHATWG isn’t affected |
| 20:03 | <bathos> | Ah, sorry, I had no context for the discussion — just saw talk of what looked like a hot stove I once touched and instinctively shared the tale |
| 20:38 | <annevk> | bathos: I mean, most other specs will be, so TabAtkins will care I suspect; please keep sharing |
| 20:39 | <TabAtkins> | bathos: That's for an inline <svg> element? I wasn't aware <svg alt> was supported. |
| 20:40 | <TabAtkins> | If you're just referring to SVG-in-<img>, that's a different thing and I'm definitely just using <img alt> there. |
| 20:41 | <bathos> | yes, inline ... well, at least that’s how I recall it, I could have mixed it up. |
| 20:47 | <a-ja> | bathos: i missed start of convo...what you trying to use alt to accomplish? a11y or ? |
| 20:49 | <TabAtkins> | a-ja: It was me, actually. |
| 20:49 | <bathos> | I wasn’t, at least not just now — I was recalling an issue I encountered a few years ago which seemed like it might have been relevant to an earlier question (“But I was given to understand that <title> on an SVG was appropriate for "alt text" in a11y tools. Is this wrong?”) |
| 20:50 | <TabAtkins> | Figuring out what the best way to label the tracking-vector image (a fingerprint) with the text that "this is a potential tracking vector", for both <svg> and <img>. |
| 20:50 | <bathos> | I found this in an article from 2013 which sounds like it might be the issue I hit: “Jaws 15 and Internet Explorer 10 is the best combination at present, although nested SVG images are not well supported. NVDA and Internet Explorer present the role, title and desc, but support is erratic with multiple images announced and repetition of the title and desc. In all other browser/screen reader combinations the SVG is |
| 20:50 | <bathos> | ignored.” |
| 20:50 | <a-ja> | title/description combined with aria-labelledby/aria-described-by, but there are buggy tool impl's. |
| 20:51 | <TabAtkins> | For <img> it seems to be reasonably accepted that using identical text in title= and alt= is best - screenreaders get the same info, and people with mice get slightly upgraded experiences over those without. |
| 20:52 | <bathos> | That’s great to know re: aria-labelledby. |
| 20:57 | <a-ja> | e.g. <svg aria-labelledby="title" aria-describedby="description"><title id="title">title></title><description id="description">description</description>...</svg> |
| 21:01 | <a-ja> | https://css-tricks.com/accessible-svgs/ <-- "2. Inline SVG" describes bug workaround |
| 21:05 | <a-ja> | it suggests <svg aria-labelledby="uniqueTitleID uniqueDescID" role="img"> |
| 21:06 | <a-ja> | validator doesn't like it, though, IIRC |
| 21:10 | <TabAtkins> | Not using a <desc> anyway, so that trouble is avoided. |
| 21:10 | <a-ja> | easy-peasy then |
| 21:15 | <a-ja> | "I[sic] recommended (based on browser/screen reader support) to use <img src="svg.svg> if possible" |
| 21:17 | <a-ja> | cuz of multiple workarounds involved for JAWS/NVDA/Chrome/Firefox |
| 21:32 | <TabAtkins> | Hm, I'd have to do an SVG data url then, as I'm trying to avoid having random Bikeshedded specs depend on a common external image, thus the inline SVG. |
| 21:44 | <a-ja> | another consideration perhaps...need licensing info embedded? |
| 21:47 | <TabAtkins> | No. |