00:55
<waldemar>
Yup, the time zone situation in Lebanon is quite a mess at the moment: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/27/lebanon-in-two-different-time-zones-as-government-disagrees-on-daylight-savings.html
01:50
<justingrant>

It amazes me how governments—repeatedly—make last-minute changes to DST and then are shocked, just shocked, about the tech turmoil that inevitably ensues. Brazil in 2019 stopped using DST with only 6 months' notice, and that was still a mess. Countries really should be giving 2-3 years' heads up to allow updating all the software that was playing by the old time zone rules. IoT and mobile devices are particularly challenging because they often require OS or firmware updates to get new time zone rules, and many device vendors' support budgets are skimpy.

FWIW, Temporal.ZonedDateTime's default behavior was designed to flag cases when parsing previously-stored data after time zone rules have unexpectedly changed. So a string like 2020-01-15T12:00:00-02:00[America/Sao_Paulo] stores both the exact timestamp (what you'd store in a Temporal.Instant) as well as the time zone identifier America/Sao_Paulo. If you try to parse that string today (after we know about Brazil's stopping DST in 2019) using Temporal.ZonedDateTime.from then you'll get a RangeError because there's a conflict between the offset -02:00 and the time zone ID America/Sao_Paulo.

For developers who know what behavior they want in cases like that, there's an offset option that can be used to choose how to resolve conflicts. https://tc39.es/proposal-temporal/docs/zoneddatetime.html#from https://tc39.es/proposal-temporal/docs/ambiguity.html#examples-offset-option

This won't help cases like Lebanon's which have minimal (or negative!) advance notice, but should help developers find and recover from changes like Brazil's where changes are announced a few months in advance: long enough for IANA Time Zone Database updates to be rolled out into ECMAScript implementations.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk. ⏰

16:38
<Michael Ficarra>
that's a step too far for me already
16:38
<Michael Ficarra>
only nats are real
16:38
<Michael Ficarra>
show me negative 3 apples, you can't
16:51
<bakkot>
release notes for safari 16.4 claim they're shipping Array#group, which I assume means Array.prototype.group, i.e. the version Firefox had to unship - can anyone confirm? https://webkit.org/blog/13966/webkit-features-in-safari-16-4/
17:27
<bakkot>
in fairness the proposal is stage 3 with those semantics
17:27
<bakkot>
if we wanted people to not ship it we should have updated the proposal to not say that
17:28
<littledan>
well, we agreed on "requires coordination" for this but I didn't update the PR to the proposals repo to add group, so it didn't land yet...
17:28
<littledan>
oops
17:29
<bakkot>
I think people treat the proposal's own repo as the source of truth, note the tc39/proposals repo
17:30
<bakkot>
at least, I do
17:32
<Chris de Almeida>
https://twitter.com/robpalmer2/status/1640430227238055938
18:13
<Michael Ficarra>
Apple reps have been in the meetings with us where we discussed the web compat issues, it's not like they can say they weren't aware of this
18:14
<Rob Palmer>
I brought it up here in Feb but didn't think to check the proposal repo for accuracy. https://matrix.to/#/!WgJwmjBNZEXhJnXHXw:matrix.org/$_HQv9BW3cbGiby101Adx_JNKGGNoVtUwbOpynC080Uc?via=matrix.org&via=igalia.com&via=mozilla.org
18:15
<bakkot>
Apple reps have been in the meetings with us where we discussed the web compat issues, it's not like they can say they weren't aware of this
I dunno I can definitely legitimately claim to not be aware of every fact discussed at every meeting I was present at
18:16
<Michael Ficarra>
bakkot: this was no small fact!
19:10
<Ashley Claymore>
Never short sold an apple?
19:11
<Ashley Claymore>
A run on apples nearly bankrupt me
19:12
<littledan>
How many bits would it take to express this fact? I'd reckon, with an efficient encoding of TC39 Discourse, fewer than 50.
19:12
<littledan>
so I'd say this is a relatively small fact
20:22
<shu>
I dunno I can definitely legitimately claim to not be aware of every fact discussed at every meeting I was present at
yeah this was a pretty big one...
20:24
<shu>
has anyone reached out to JSC folks yet other than rob's post?
20:25
<shu>
i'll email them
20:27
<littledan>
Good, I just pinged them in Slack too, to be sure
20:27
<littledan>
(WebKit Slack is open for people to join)
20:34
<littledan>
yeah, I got in touch with them; they were just unaware of the issue
20:50
<littledan>
msaboff reports that they will unship at their earliest convenience
21:12
<bakkot>
maybe it will actually just work and all the websites will update and then we can actually call it group
21:12
<bakkot>
(I don't actually think that's viable)
21:13
<littledan>
The issues were multiple https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1f11_k371JdUG1NdNbaW-qKHRFtlX8v64fM1qt41VNio/edit#slide=id.g192f2ba8c8d_0_0