| 17:06 | <littledan> | Hola |
| 17:06 | <ryzokuken> | hola ^2 |
| 17:06 | <Kris Kowal> | Como etc |
| 17:06 | <shu> | are we repurposing this room to be for all module-related proposals? |
| 17:06 | <shu> | (could we rename if so?) |
| 17:07 | <Kris Kowal> | Yes, I’m repurposing the compartments proposal for module loader proposal. |
| 17:07 | <shu> | what is the module loader proposal? |
| 17:07 | <littledan> | the non-module-related parts of compartments are being split out |
| 17:07 | <Kris Kowal> | Module loading was a subset of tc39/proposal-compartments. I’ve an open PR to narrow the focus to modules. |
| 17:08 | <littledan> | I'm a huge fan of this change |
| 17:08 | <Kris Kowal> | https://github.com/tc39/proposal-compartments/pull/46 |
| 17:08 | <littledan> | how about we call this room "TC39 Modules" |
| 17:08 | <shu> | no i was asking something else, are we repurposing this room to also include the discussion of module blocks and import reflection? |
| 17:08 | <shu> | if so, let's rename |
| 17:08 | <shu> | if not, let's make a new room called TC39 Modules, yes |
| 17:09 | <Jack Works> | Module loading was a subset of tc39/proposal-compartments. I’ve an open PR to narrow the focus to modules. |
| 17:09 | <Kris Kowal> | Ah, I’m in favor of a venue called Modules since it’s not my intention to increase the scope of Compartments to close over blocks and “static import” |
| 17:10 | <Kris Kowal> | My intention is to champion both shared-global and unique-globals. |
| 17:10 | <Kris Kowal> | Both modes are useful. |
| 17:11 | <guybedford> | I guess one question is where should the new StaticModulRecord be specified? |
| 17:11 | <guybedford> | If we can agree that such a userland record should exist? |
| 17:12 | <guybedford> | not userland - user exposed |
| 17:12 | <Jack Works> | If we can agree that such a userland record should exist? |
| 17:14 | <shu> | i am supportive of such a thing existing and is user-exposed, yes |
| 17:14 | <shu> | (also let's invite the module blocks folks in here like Surma, not sure how to do that) |
| 17:14 | <littledan> | there's clearly going to be some design which is shared between proposals. I think we should avoid too much churn between repos/URLs as we develop this though |
| 17:14 | <Kris Kowal> | I invited Surma when we created the room. |
| 17:15 | <shu> | ah excellent |
| 17:15 | <littledan> | maybe we should call the intersection of things the "loader proposal" and name things around that? |
| 17:15 | <Jack Works> | there's clearly going to be some design which is shared between proposals. I think we should avoid too much churn between repos/URLs as we develop this though |
| 17:15 | <shu> | The Loader of Things |
| 17:16 | <Kris Kowal> | I’m in favor of not thinking too hard about layering yet. We need the proposals to be cohesive and none of them can advance without a notion of StaticModuleRecord. |
| 17:16 | <shu> | let's talk administrative stuff, what's a cadence people are open to at first blush? |
| 17:16 | <shu> | 1h @ monthly? too little time? |
| 17:17 | <littledan> | weekly or biweekly would work for me. Monthly seems too slow given the timelines that people mentioned already |
| 17:17 | <littledan> | we could do monthly if we do lots of async work though |
| 17:17 | <Kris Kowal> | The Loader of Things |
| 17:17 | <shu> | yes i do think monthly is too slow, not sure why i led with that |
| 17:18 | <shu> | i'll put together a doodle for initial time, and lead with 1hr @ every 2 weeks |
| 17:18 | <Kris Kowal> | In the interest of conservation of weekly hours, I will entertain any module conversation at SES Strategy every week, probably forever. |
| 17:18 | <Kris Kowal> | I can participate in a supplementary meetings at a lower cadence. |
| 17:19 | <shu> | i'd rather we move all of it to a module call, unless the SES folks also want to repurpose the SES call to be just about modules |
| 17:19 | <Kris Kowal> | SES straddles Europe/Pacific. The other time should straddle Pacific/Asia |
| 17:20 | <Jack Works> | I can join any meetings (when I am awake), Europe/Pacific meetings usually too late for me |
| 17:20 | <Kris Kowal> | For a limited time, we will prioritize modules over other popular SES Strategy topics. ShadowRealms have mostly graduated. Records and Tuples can wait. |
| 17:20 | <shu> | i'd prefer that folks interested in the module proposals not feel pressured to attend SES calls |
| 17:20 | <guybedford> | Especially given the next meeting is so soon, perhaps a weekly call would be beneficial? There's a lot of material here. |
| 17:21 | <guybedford> | Ideally if we could work roughly to an agenda that might help too |
| 17:22 | <shu> | so i propose that module discussions move out of the SES calls into this new call, or non-module SES topics are suspended and we just have one call until the module charter runs out |
| 17:23 | <shu> | and given that SES calls have a set time already, i lean towards the first option |
| 17:23 | <guybedford> | Building cross-specification agreement seems to be the value proposition here, so having a dedicated meeting makes sense to me |
| 17:23 | <Kris Kowal> | Well, I can give you a meeting where SES topics that don’t overlap modules are indefinitely postponed. |
| 17:24 | <Jack Works> | do we need a new repo for the module record and all module related proposals refer to it? |
| 17:24 | <shu> | Kris Kowal: are you and the SES folks open to suspend the SES calls in favor of this one until the module topics runs its course in this independent call? |
| 17:24 | <shu> | i really don't want multiple "rooms where it happens" |
| 17:24 | <Kris Kowal> | I can only say that I only have space in my workweek to run one meeting. |
| 17:25 | <shu> | understood, not asking you to convene |
| 17:25 | <Kris Kowal> | And I would be delighted to convene ;-) |
| 17:31 | <Kris Kowal> | shu: But, by all means, please share a Doodle so we can find a good commons. |
| 17:32 | <shu> | making a doodle as we speak |
| 17:50 | <Kris Kowal> | littledan: I could use your eyes on the compartments-as-loader proposal with an eye for how to fit import assertions in. That is one concern I’ve not written in. |
| 17:51 | <Kris Kowal> | There are some obvious places to account for it, like adding an options bag to the import method. Probably also obviously necessary to thread those options into the loadHook. |
| 17:52 | <Kris Kowal> | But also perhaps obviously not thread it into the loadHook, because that invites the virtual host to abuse it for non-assertions. |
| 17:53 | <Kris Kowal> | In order for us to preserve the character of import assertions, it might be necessary to add a “type” property to module descriptors, such that the Compartment is in a position to maintain the assertion. |
| 17:53 | <shu> | reflector issue and doodle up: https://github.com/tc39/Reflector/issues/436 |
| 17:53 | <shu> | i'll cross-post in TC39 Delegates for visibility |
| 17:53 | <Kris Kowal> | That in turn makes a case for continuing to encapsulate “link” |
| 17:57 | <Kris Kowal> | Is this intentionally Doodle with a little D, or am I looking at the spreadsheet a form reports to? |
| 17:59 | <Kris Kowal> | https://github.com/tc39/proposal-compartments/issues/37 |
| 20:12 | <Kris Kowal> | I withdraw the question. This is clearly superior to Doodle with a big D regardless. |
| 20:14 | <Kris Kowal> | I went ahead and added a column for the 10:00 AM Pacific time slot. We can deconvene SES Strategy if that time slot is winful. |
| 20:43 | <shu> | it is intentionally doodle with little d |
| 20:43 | <shu> | but i have been incorrectly capitalizing it |
| 20:44 | <shu> | i stole the sheet from a PM internally, i was real tired of the huge amount of large banner ads on actual doodle |
| 20:46 | <guybedford> | it's incredibly impressive, certainly decapitalizing doodle there :P |
| 20:48 | <shu> | spreadsheets: the one true programming environment |
| 21:00 | <littledan> | I take it 2-weekly means "every two weeks" not "twice a week" right? |
| 21:05 | <shu> | that's correct |
| 21:13 | <littledan> | that's a relief |
| 21:40 | <Kris Kowal> | The CommonJS debates were about a month of continuous debate with thousands of messages. I definitely can’t sustain that kind of engagement anymore, but I certainly care enough to try 😂 |
| 21:44 | <Kris Kowal> | spreadsheets: the one true programming environment |
| 21:52 | <littledan> | I feel like we don't have all that many points to actually make opinionated decisions here, that most of the API should sort of flow through "naturally" |
| 21:55 | <littledan> | so many things are nailed down already by the nature of modules already |
| 22:00 | <Kris Kowal> | Mark and I have decided to get ahead of the inevitable bikeshed and suggest renaming the Compartments proposal to merely Loader. https://github.com/tc39/proposal-compartments/pull/48 |
| 22:01 | <littledan> | love it |
| 22:01 | <Kris Kowal> | It’ll remain Compartment in the quiet of our hearts. |
| 22:02 | <littledan> | lean in |
| 22:02 | <littledan> | (if you want to keep it as compartments, that's fine with me) |
| 22:02 | <littledan> | I guess the sort of core of this being compartment-like is having its global specified |
| 22:02 | <littledan> | i wonder if there's some way to refer to that... I can't think of it |
| 22:03 | <Kris Kowal> | Further simplifications to come to court the majority. |
| 22:04 | <Kris Kowal> | Right, and in the majority use-case, folks will want to share the global environment record from host to guest, so we’re discussing making that the default, and keeping a carve-out for a new-global behavior. We don’t actually need much from the new-global carve-out to build Lockdown in userland. |
| 22:07 | <Kris Kowal> | And I would like to prepare a PR with an inside-out version of Loader like what Guy proposes, based on Compartment shim internals, to vet guybedford’s ModuleInstance by contrast. It will be interesting to see them side-by-side. |
| 23:54 | <Kris Kowal> | In Guests share host by default #50, I’m attempting to make the Loader proposal more juicy for SES-indifferent crowd by making Loader() as useful as possible to what I believe will be many people’s needs with no options provided. |
| 23:54 | <Kris Kowal> | It’s at the end of the day, just pivoting the defaults. |