WHATWG on 2021-06-04

02:07	<EveryOS>	I joined the Matrix server, this looks kind of like a hybrid between IRC and Discord. I see not everybody has swapped over yet, as according to the member list.
04:02	<sideshowbarker>	Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]: Was thinking about something last night, and trying to remember: Do I recall correctly that back in the day — before Bikeshed and Respec came along, back when the CSS WG was using Bert Bos’s “CSS preprocessor” service — you were the one who came up with a workalike for that tool/service of Bert’s. And that was first such tool that we started to use for other specs. Right?
04:06	<Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]>	sideshowbarker: Anolis, yes. Hixie stopped using it for HTML in 2014, so not that long before he stopped editing it, which is around the same time as Bikeshed and Respec were happening IIRC.
04:06	<sideshowbarker>	ah yes, “Anolis”, of course
04:07	<sideshowbarker>	it was so long ago that I had forgotten the name
04:07	<sideshowbarker>	but that name brings it all back — that was great name
04:08	<Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]>	I can't quite remember where that came from. I expect some discussion in here?
04:08	<sideshowbarker>	no idea now
04:08	<sideshowbarker>	and I had sorta forgotten that Hixie had been using it for the HTML spec — but I guess he must have used it for years
04:09	<sideshowbarker>	like, at least 5 years, he was using it to generate the published HTML spec
04:10	<sideshowbarker>	I am disappointed in myself for forgetting — that was a pretty key tool for all those years
04:11	<Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]>	I think I wrote it partly to have tools that didn't rely on having access to the W3C CSS WG servers, and partly because Hixie was annoyed at how long they were taking as the HTML spec got ever bigger!
04:12	<sideshowbarker>	yeah the code for Bert’s thing was actually all bash/sed/etc
04:12	<sideshowbarker>	It was good that it was only exposed as a web service — people would have been baffled by that code
04:13	<sideshowbarker>	I mean, I liked that code myself, but I think you had to be from a certain earlier era to not find it a giant WTF
04:14	<sideshowbarker>	anyway, Anolis was a nice piece of work
04:16	<sideshowbarker>	I now don’t recall why we didn’t start using it for specs other than HTML — why Bikeshed became necessary — but I vaguely recall that being because Anolis ended up being pretty tightly coupled to the quirks for the source of the HTML spec
04:16	<sideshowbarker>	not easily generalizable/portable to use for other specs, maybe?
04:17	<GPHemsley>	we totally used Anolis for other specs
04:17	<GPHemsley>	mimesniff started in anolis
04:17	<sideshowbarker>	ah OK
04:18	<sideshowbarker>	I seem to have pushed all knowledge of this stuff way into the back of my memory
04:18	<sideshowbarker>	tape storage
04:18	<GPHemsley>	looks like the conversion, at least for mimesniff, happened in 2016
04:19	<sideshowbarker>	OK
04:19	<GPHemsley>	I assume we switched to bikeshed because it supported more things
04:19	<GPHemsley>	(I wasn't involved in the conversion)
04:20	<sideshowbarker>	hmm among my other vague recollections is that Sam got tired of maintaining Anolis and didn’t like fixing bugs in it any more, something like that
04:21	<GPHemsley>	could be
04:21	<GPHemsley>	and Tab was busy doing stuff for CSS
04:21	<GPHemsley>	so it was already there
04:21	<sideshowbarker>	yeah, something like that
04:25	<Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]>	Bikeshed quickly got features that Anolis didn't have, and I had long ago stopped really maintaining it (Ms2ger maintained it for a while).
04:25	<GPHemsley>	oh yes, Ms2ger was maintainer when I was editing, I think
04:25	<GPHemsley>	looks like encoding started in anolis too
04:27	<GPHemsley>	probably others, but I'll stop digging
04:28	<Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]>	Plenty of others; virtually everything written between 2008 and 2013 or so used it.
04:29	<GPHemsley>	right
04:32	<GPHemsley>	oh wow, turns out I submitted quite a few PRs to anolis
04:33	<karlcow>	was it partly https://www.w3.org/Tools/HTML-XML-utils/
04:33	<karlcow>	Bert's tool
04:45	<sideshowbarker>	karlcow: no, I think that was something completely different
04:45	sideshowbarker	looks for a link to Bert’s processor
04:50	<karlcow>	https://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/postprocessor/
04:50	<sideshowbarker>	aha
05:11	<Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]>	was it partly https://www.w3.org/Tools/HTML-XML-utils/ it was based on that, albeit a fair bit developed beyond there IIRC
05:12	<Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]>	those, the CSS 2 build system, and the CSS3 module post processor are all ultimately from a common source AFAIK, but have vastly diverged since (e.g. several of the tools have been rewritten multiple times)
05:12	<Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]>	(also hi Karl!)
05:49	<Ms2ger>	What year is it???
06:16	<karlcow>	I should make that a tradition. Come to the whatwg channel only the years of the cow. :p
06:22	<sideshowbarker>	🍸 Cheers all — looking forward to 17+ more years of #whatwg:matrix.org good times together
06:24	<sideshowbarker>	the year 2038 is waiting for us all to arrive
06:25	<foolip>	Happy new year!
07:11	<Andreu Botella (he/they)>	Your old folks' tales are cool and all, but yeah, here's to keeping this community strong into the future! 🥂
07:11	<Andreu Botella (he/they)>	btw I'm surprised I did know about Anolis when sideshowbarker didn't remember, just from the `git blame`ing I had to do over the past year
07:15	<sideshowbarker>	ah `git blame`ing the HTML source — 5.9MB of source × 17 years, source re-wrapped/reformatted multiple times — that is about as “good times” as good times can get
07:15	<sideshowbarker>	and it’s pretty fun to hear Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders] getting included in “old folks”
07:18	<Ms2ger>	Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders] will always be a young whippersnapper to me
07:19	<sideshowbarker>	cue “Forever Young” (whichever version you like: Bob Dylan or Rod Stewart)
07:19	<sideshowbarker>	…which reminds me, somewhere we should document that the official WHATWG theme song is actually “Whatever happened to the teenage dream?”
07:20	<sideshowbarker>	and let’s cry too, for knowing that in 3 years, #whatwg:matrix.org will no longer be teenager
07:31	<Andreu Botella (he/they)>	and it’s pretty fun to hear Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders] getting included in “old folks” This had me frantically searching for Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]'s age – like that mattered at all 😄
07:31	<Andreu Botella (he/they)>	I might not be that much younger, but I just got started in the standards world last year, so it's old folks in the field anyway
07:41	<sideshowbarker>	Andreu Botella (he/they): Super glad you showed up and got involved. You’ve done some really exceptional work
07:43	<Andreu Botella (he/they)>	aww thanks 😄
07:43	Andreu Botella (he/they)	tries to beat down impostor syndrome
07:47	<sideshowbarker>	Andreu Botella (he/they): don’t worry, you’re the real deal — trust me 😄
07:47	<sideshowbarker>	trust yourself
07:54	<Andreu Botella (he/they)>	anyway, back to celebrating 🥂
12:48	<Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]>	This had me frantically searching for Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]'s age – like that mattered at all 😄 29, but I've been around here since I was, uh, 14…
12:58	<EveryOS>	29, but I've been around here since I was, uh, 14… Oh wow, that's really early. I'm currently 18, joined like last year I think I doubt that I was even aware of the spec's existence when I was 14. I may or may not have been interested in browserdev by then, but certainly did not have the skills to do anything in that field.
12:58	<Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]>	My biggest skill was being an annoyance, I'm pretty sure.
12:59	<Ms2ger>	til you're actually my age
13:00	<jgraham>	"was"?
13:00	<jgraham>	:)
13:01	<EveryOS>	I got a ghost ping? The tab title said I had 1 ping, but I don't see any.
13:01	<EveryOS>	My biggest skill was being an annoyance, I'm pretty sure. I bet that's mine too
13:02	<Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]>	"was"? well stop ending up working on the same stuff as me for year after year 😛
13:13	<EveryOS>	Is the Matrix server because Freenode's ownership transferred? Or is that just coincidence?
13:16	<jgraham>	That prompted the discussion about alternatives, but matrix is hoped/expected to be more approachable than IRC for a broad community.
13:19	<EveryOS>	Ah, ok It looks a lot like a hybrid between IRC and Discord. I like it.
13:24	<jgraham>	Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]: I think my chief skill is being too dim to find anything more productive to do with my time than try and fight network effects on the web platform.
13:51	<bkardell>	Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders]: Was thinking about something last night, and trying to remember: Do I recall correctly that back in the day — before Bikeshed and Respec came along, back when the CSS WG was using Bert Bos’s “CSS preprocessor” service — you were the one who came up with a workalike for that tool/service of Bert’s. And that was first such tool that we started to use for other specs. Right? whoa what was this? I've never heard of this one
13:53	<Ms2ger>	Looks like bitbucket removed the repositories in their mercurial purge
13:54	<bkardell>	Oh wow, that's really early. I'm currently 18, joined like last year I think I doubt that I was even aware of the spec's existence when I was 14. I may or may not have been interested in browserdev by then, but certainly did not have the skills to do anything in that field. done be discouraged by that though, Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders] was a real outlier in this respect - I think annevk and Sam Sneddon [:gsnedders] were like the youngest people in standards maybe?
14:15	<EveryOS>	Ah, ok When I first joined the WhatWG IRC I was only 17 or 16, so I had to go and check the participation rules to make sure I was actually able to join at that age. Luckily, I was.
15:31	Ms2ger	archived at https://github.com/Ms2ger/anolis
19:35	<bkardell>	Ah, ok When I first joined the WhatWG IRC I was only 17 or 16, so I had to go and check the participation rules to make sure I was actually able to join at that age. Luckily, I was. I think I was almost 30 and thought I was still pretty young :) Nobody really knows how old you are from these messages I guess :)
19:40	<EveryOS>	I think I was almost 30 and thought I was still pretty young :) Nobody really knows how old you are from these messages I guess :) Gotcha, interesting I take it the minimum age for somebody is 13, as usual? Surprisingly, I did not see any rules about that.
19:46	<bkardell>	Good question?! Idk?
19:47	<Andreu Botella (he/they)>	I imagine there's a minimum age at which someone can sign the participant agreement
19:49	<sideshowbarker>	Andreu Botella (he/they): not any minimum age explicitly stated anywhere — and I don’t think the form for signing the participant agreement asks anything about age
19:49	<Andreu Botella (he/they)>	I was talking more about consent stuff depending on the jurisdiction
19:50	<sideshowbarker>	right, I guess that must be bound by whatever the minimum age is — in the signer’s jurisdiction — for signing any legal agreement or contract or whatever
19:51	<sideshowbarker>	I imagine that must be age 18 in most places. But now that I think of it, in Japan at least it might actually be age 20
19:53	<jgraham>	There also seems to be a US law about not collecting personal information of under 13s without parental consent. That might make it difficult to sign up for services like GitHub.
19:58	<EveryOS>	I imagine that must be age 18 in most places. But now that I think of it, in Japan at least it might actually be age 20 While I'm now 18, I had signed it when I was 17 :/ I failed I guess I haven't actually done any contributing yet, other than a simple issue I had opened on the Github issues page :/
20:05	<sideshowbarker>	While I'm now 18, I had signed it when I was 17 :/ I failed I guess I haven't actually done any contributing yet, other than a simple issue I had opened on the Github issues page :/ Issues are still contributions
20:05	<sideshowbarker>	finding spec bugs and reporting them is a pretty useful thing
20:05	<Andreu Botella (he/they)>	But the participant agreement only matters for PRs
20:05	<sideshowbarker>	right
20:06	<EveryOS>	Ah, ok
20:07	<sideshowbarker>	so if you have patents on something, you can just raise an issue describing the change you want to get into the spec, including some idea you have a patent for, and then wait until somebody else actually writes up a patch for it 😋
20:08	<sideshowbarker>	and then after Google and Apple implement it and ship it, you wait a few years and then start going after them for royalties
20:08	<sideshowbarker>	and since you never signed the participant agreement, you’re not prevented from being able to do that
20:09	<EveryOS>	That sounds evil
20:12	<sideshowbarker>	I’m kidding of course
20:13	<sideshowbarker>	but we actually had no participant agreement for the first two years after the spec was moved into github and we started accepting PRs and patches
20:14	<sideshowbarker>	so all the contributions that were made in those two years — from 2015 to 2017 — were made without any royalty-free commitments
20:15	<foolip>	and then after Google and Apple implement it and ship it, you wait a few years and then start going after them for royalties Way to coach new contributors Mike ;)
20:16	<sideshowbarker>	well maybe I shouldn’t kid about it so much
20:16	<sideshowbarker>	don’t want to give anybody bad ideas
20:17	<foolip>	Mike’s guide to anti-social standards engagement, could be a best seller :) Except you have no experience being dislikable yourself so maybe it wouldn’t seem genuine.
20:18	<sideshowbarker>	heh
20:18	<sideshowbarker>	yeah it requires actually being bad and dislikable inside, which is hard to fake
20:19	<sideshowbarker>	anyway, it’s also worth remembering that for the 11 years from 2004 to 2015, even though the spec wasn’t under public version control, there were major features that went into it which were at least in part based on proposals from third parties (or in some cases, the design of the entire feature was largely the work of a third party)
20:19	<sideshowbarker>	in other words, the bulk of the spec — and we have no RF commitments for any of that
20:20	<sideshowbarker>	but we operated that way for 13-14 years without anybody ever seeing it as a major problem
20:20	<EveryOS>	Not sure why, but for a second I thought Bring Your Own Beer readers were a thing
20:22	<foolip>	in other words, the bulk of the spec — and we have no RF commitments for any of that We do have commitments for all of the various W3C publications and WHATWG review drafts. Just not necessarily from those who originally came up with it, which isn’t strictly guaranteed now either.
20:23	<sideshowbarker>	sure
20:24	<sideshowbarker>	but what bothers me some is the giant new barrier we created for new contributors
20:24	<sideshowbarker>	for 14 years we operated with effectively zero barrier of entry for new contributors
20:25	<sideshowbarker>	but then we decided we needed RF commitments for everything, so we unilaterally put the participant agreement in place
20:26	<sideshowbarker>	…and with that we suddenly went from zero barrier of entry to massive barrier of entry
20:26	<EveryOS>	but what bothers me some is the giant new barrier we created for new contributors The agreement? That wasn't too hard to read and sign.
20:27	<sideshowbarker>	The agreement? That wasn't too hard to read and sign. it’s only not hard to sign if you’re not employed at an organization that does work related to the web
20:27	<EveryOS>	OH, ok
20:27	<Andreu Botella (he/they)>	Things have improved over the past year, with a huge clarification on what "work in the field of web technologies" means
20:28	<EveryOS>	What happens if you initially sign a personal agreement, but then switch to working? I feel like I've asked before, but have forgotten.
20:28	<sideshowbarker>	and I have some pretty concrete evidence that it makes things very hard or impossible for some people, because it prevented me from being able to contribute for 2 years
20:28	<sideshowbarker>	it personally took me 2 years to get my employer to agree to sign it
20:29	<sideshowbarker>	Things have improved over the past year, with a huge clarification on what "work in the field of web technologies" means Yes — we can be grateful to the WHATWG SG for recognizing the difficulties and making some mitigations to the rules
20:30	<sideshowbarker>	…but it has taken them literally years to get around to finally doing that
20:31	<sideshowbarker>	I also want to note that the wider WHATWG community was never actually asked, “Do you think we should put a requirement for a participant agreement in place? And if so, what do you think the termsof it should be?”
20:32	<sideshowbarker>	we did it without asking the community about it, and zero opportunity for the community to give feedback about it
20:33	<aja>	Clause 1: First kill all the lawyers
20:33	<aja>	...apologies to the Bard
20:33	<sideshowbarker>	lawyers are great
20:34	<aja>	some lawyers are great
20:35	<sideshowbarker>	but if you give lawyers an opportunity and freedom to do whatever they want to optimize some situation to mitigate potential legal and financial risks the companies they work for, the lawyers are gonna do their jobs very very well, and optimize the hell out of it, along those lines
20:36	<aja>	strike Clause 1, insert: First kill all the patent trolls
20:37	<sideshowbarker>	yeah that would be better wording
20:37	<sideshowbarker>	anyway, I don’t want to kill anybody — I just want to try to make sure we make it as easy as possible for new people to show up and help us solve problems together
20:38	<foolip>	aja: I don’t think this is appropriate for this channel, even jokingly. No killing needed in web standards.
20:39	<sideshowbarker>	and IMHO even if the community had been asked about the idea participant agreement, and consensus from the community had been that, yeah, it’s a good idea to have a participant agreement — even then, the actual concrete participant agreement that ended up being put in place is not something the community would have found to be optimal for facilitating the same kind of participation we’d had for the previous 13-14 years
20:40	<EveryOS>	I originally joined IRC because I was (am) working on a program that heavily uses web standards, and I felt I might as well join. But I now feel obligated to (eventually) do some non-trivial contributions.
20:44	<foolip>	FWIW I agree that we failed to strike a good balance, and am embarrassed at how slow we are in improving it. At the time the current WHATWG structure was being negotiated it really didn’t look like an option to make anything public before it was done, however, and even in hindsight I don’t know if that could have worked. But we could have used our imaginations better and asked how this would work in the worst cases, which shouldn’t have been surprising but were, to me at least.
20:44	<hober>	aja: I don’t think this is appropriate for this channel, even jokingly. No killing needed in web standards. yes, it's hard to square those comments with the code of conduct: https://whatwg.org/code-of-conduct
20:45	<aja>	apologies...s/kill/deprecate/
20:45	<EveryOS>	I'm sorry to say, but the web standards can honestly be a nightmare for me to read. They are so large and intertwined.
20:45	<hober>	you can go back and edit your comments :)
20:46	<EveryOS>	apologies...s/kill/deprecate/ You forgot the "g" to make it a replace all operation (:
20:46	<Andreu Botella (he/they)>	I'm sorry to say, but the web standards can honestly be a nightmare for me to read. They are so large and intertwined. I don't think there's anyone who understands all of the web platform. You can start small.
20:48	<EveryOS>	I don't think there's anyone who understands all of the web platform. You can start small. I find it a bit hard. By the time I've read one paragraph I've jumped through 15 references xD
20:48	<foolip>	I'm sorry to say, but the web standards can honestly be a nightmare for me to read. They are so large and intertwined. Yes, absolutely! But you can start with the easier cases, like short algorithms that don’t depend on a lot of other things. Once you become familiar with the conventions you’ll be able to make sense of bigger and bigger chunks of stuff. And then, TBH, there are a lot of things which are really just broken and don’t make sense, so don’t assume it’s because you don’t understand! Almost everything is broken if you look closely.
20:49	<hober>	hence the "please leave your sense of logic at the door" in the topic
20:50	<foolip>	EveryOS, you can also do yourself a favor and start with specs that are widely considered high quality, so that not quite everything you look at is secretly broken.
20:50	<EveryOS>	I'm a crazy madman who thought it would be cool to write a rendering engine (: And I've gotten not quite, but pretty close to nowhere
20:50	<EveryOS>	(Wow that image is way too big when it uploaded)
20:51	<sideshowbarker>	FWIW I agree that we failed to strike a good balance, and am embarrassed at how slow we are in improving it. At the time the current WHATWG structure was being negotiated it really didn’t look like an option to make anything public before it was done, however, and even in hindsight I don’t know if that could have worked. But we could have used our imaginations better and asked how this would work in the worst cases, which shouldn’t have been surprising but were, to me at least. well I blame myself as much as anybody else for not having thought it through a lot better ahead of time. And once we had it in place, there was a pretty large amount of inertia against being able to shift anything back a little
20:52	<foolip>	EveryOS, that’s awesome, really! Have you seen SerenityOS? That might be a suitable playground with a lot to do, but where there’s already a bunch in place.
20:52	<sideshowbarker>	foolip: but I very much appreciate the work the SG has been doing to get the changes made — I know it must have required a lot of effort
20:52	<hober>	awwwwh, i miss andreas
20:52	<hober>	love to see how much fun he's having with serenityos though
20:53	<EveryOS>	EveryOS, that’s awesome, really! Have you seen SerenityOS? That might be a suitable playground with a lot to do, but where there’s already a bunch in place. Yea Did you see the image before I deleted it of what I had? It was too large for chat, but I can put it on Imgur or something Nothing impressive
20:53	<sideshowbarker>	hober: What is SerenityOS? Which Andreas?
20:53	<foolip>	hover, yeah, it’s inspirational, especially when he’s implementing something fun that’s already done and frozen in all “real” browser engines
20:53	<hober>	Andreas Kling
20:53	<hober>	https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity
20:54	<EveryOS>	love to see how much fun he's having with serenityos though I've seen a tiny bit of SerenityOS. It's really cool OS, crazy how good the programmer is
20:54	<sideshowbarker>	oh wow
20:54	<hober>	EveryOS: he used to work with me (on the webkit team at apple)
20:54	<sideshowbarker>	I didn’t even know Andreas had moved on from Apple
20:54	<hober>	he's a sweetie
20:54	<foolip>	Yea Did you see the image before I deleted it of what I had? It was too large for chat, but I can put it on Imgur or something Nothing impressive I saw, size wasn’t a problem for me, and I liked what I saw! Something that sort of does something, that’s how things start!
20:54	<EveryOS>	EveryOS: he used to work with me (on the webkit team at apple) That's sweet
20:54	<sideshowbarker>	WebKit Memes is among Andreas’s other great contributions to the world
20:55	<hober>	land patch. go home.
20:55	<hober>	the first but still the best one
20:57	<sideshowbarker>	it was all gold
20:57	<foolip>	EveryOS, if you’re looking for easy-ish ways to learn random bits about the web platform, contributing to MDN or BCD is probably a good bet too.
20:59	<sideshowbarker>	big +1 for that
21:00	<sideshowbarker>	for MDN we have ~600 open issues in need of somebody to work on fixes/updates to MDN articles for
21:00	<sideshowbarker>	and that MDN issues list grows at a net rate of about 4 new issues a day
21:00	<foolip>	The “everything is broken” thing definitely holds for MDN too, as excellent as it is :)
21:02	<EveryOS>	I saw, size wasn’t a problem for me, and I liked what I saw! Something that sort of does something, that’s how things start! Yea! Sadly, it's not very cool yet. HTTP is a pain to work with, and eventually I'm gonna have to refactor everything to play nicely with the streams spec. HTTP is currently so bad that I keep having to write a million "InputStream" classes to do anything at all, and with each class I write, the more instable things get
21:03	<sideshowbarker>	The “everything is broken” thing definitely holds for MDN too, as excellent as it is :) yeah I try to avoid reading MDN articles other than the ones I’m curently working on 😋 — for fear I’m going find more work for myself — find yet another MDN problem I feel compelled to fix
21:03	<sideshowbarker>	sent an image. Java code?
21:04	<EveryOS>	Yea
21:04	<EveryOS>	Actually not too slow
21:06	<EveryOS>	Takes 4 seconds to parse http://khronos.org/registry/vulkan/specs/1.2-extensions/html/vkspec.html But then again, the HTML parser fails to do a lot of things because a) The spec is very, very big, so I omitted or replaced a lot of things for the sake of being able to get anywhere b) My NIO setup makes just about anything impossible to do without causing billions of bugs
21:08	<sideshowbarker>	you saying you wrote an HTML parser?
21:09	<EveryOS>	EveryOS, if you’re looking for easy-ish ways to learn random bits about the web platform, contributing to MDN or BCD is probably a good bet too. I've (tried) to contribute a bit to Chromium (: I've made 3 PRs Embarrassingly, the one that was accepted is a three liner (https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/2543483) My favorite one got (effectively) denied (https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/2692949)
21:10	<sideshowbarker>	getting a patch merged into the Chromium sources is significant accomplishment — even if it’s just 3 lines
21:12	<sideshowbarker>	EveryOS: what was the reason the https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/2692949 patch didn’t end up making the cut?
21:12	<sideshowbarker>	I can kind of imagine — that’s a pretty ambitious change
21:13	<EveryOS>	Impressively detailed comment about why it was denied
21:13	sideshowbarker	reads
21:14	<EveryOS>	Didn't know that people at Google had time to write multi-paragraph deny messages xD
21:15	<sideshowbarker>	wow yeah that is a great response
21:15	<sideshowbarker>	I realize now I think I don’t know anybody from the Chrome UX team
21:15	<sideshowbarker>	you having some direct engagement with the UX team, that seems like a pretty good accomplishment too
21:16	<sideshowbarker>	anyway, I like your feature, that feature
21:16	<sideshowbarker>	I would use it
21:16	<sideshowbarker>	maybe I’ll even try your patch (if it still applies)
21:16	<EveryOS>	anyway, I like your feature, that feature Thanks I gotta disclaim though The code is mine, but the idea actually originated from a bug report xD
21:18	<EveryOS>	I noticed, in the comment, they said they were impressed by the commit's work I've been wondering if they meant "for an outsider" or "in general"
21:18	<sideshowbarker>	Thanks I gotta disclaim though The code is mine, but the idea actually originated from a bug report xD turning ideas into concrete stuff that people can actually use is what engineering is all about, I guess
21:19	<sideshowbarker>	I noticed, in the comment, they said they were impressed by the commit's work I've been wondering if they meant "for an outsider" or "in general" I think they were genuinely impressed with it in general
21:20	<sideshowbarker>	that reply seems to imply it aligned with some of UX team’s own ideas — but just that they had a different design in mind, which your work did not fit into neatly
21:21	<EveryOS>	I was really happy to see that they brought it to UX and did a whole bunch of testing though And also surprised I honestly thought they would have just denied it on the spot xD
21:23	<EveryOS>	I'd like to mention I had the tiniest bit of normal-C experience before writing my PRs But as for C++, I kind of learned it while writing the PR Not too hard, because it looks exactly like every other imperative language in existence Still, probably not the best prerquisites
21:24	<EveryOS>	I mentioned I had made 3 PRs total Here's my other one, which is "meh" https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/2608042
21:25	sideshowbarker	looks
21:26	<sideshowbarker>	I mentioned I had made 3 PRs total Here's my other one, which is "meh" https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/2608042 why was that one rejected?
21:28	<sideshowbarker>	I find it the whole Gerritt UI pretty hard to navigate and find information in
21:42	<EveryOS>	why was that one rejected? I made it during December/January, when people were on break. I had a question about how a certain WPT test coincided with the CSS standards. The behaviour of the spec didn't seem to match up with that of the WPT test. Nobody was around to answer my question,so I took my best guess. I then wrote and submitted a PR that passed both that WPT test and related WPT tests. After I submitted it to be reviewed, you can guess what happened. Eventually, I ended up pressing the abandon button as it was very obviously not going to be accepted.
21:47	<foolip>	EveryOS, if you have more Chromium patches that relate to WPT and can’t get any review, feel free to send them to me.
21:49	<EveryOS>	EveryOS, if you have more Chromium patches that relate to WPT and can’t get any review, feel free to send them to me. Oh, they did get reviewed. The IRC that I asked a question to was all on break. The Chromium people were still there xD.
22:04	<EveryOS>	Sooner or later I will write another Chromium PR, but the compiler is a nightmare to work with.
22:05	<EveryOS>	For now, I will work on my browser. Hopefully add CSS support sometime soon, but first I need to figure out how to fix my situation with NIO, and I also need to rewrute browsing contexts be spec-compliant.
22:34	<EveryOS>	What have ya'll been working on?
22:39	<Andreu Botella (he/they)>	What have ya'll been working on? TIL Chrome's handling of text encoding might be somewhat broken
22:40	<Andreu Botella (he/they)>	https://github.com/whatwg/encoding/issues/263 – this is a spec bug, but see the last paragraph for Chrome's possibly unrelated bug
22:40	<EveryOS>	Ah, ok