| 01:36 | <frank-dspeed> | why do you all suggest bad background behind the html issue? i would love to understand the reasoning for that he simply asks for inclusiv language wouldn't it be simple to respond with something like that he can already name elements how ever he wants? he does not need to depend on footer? |
| 01:38 | <frank-dspeed> | i mean footer is not needed for anything so i am hard triggered to answer: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/8653 with it is up to the developer to not use the footer tag it is not needed for seo or any other browser implementation logic |
| 01:53 | <frank-dspeed> | ups i did it again ...... :D |
| 02:01 | <frank-dspeed> | kblom3: that is not a issue at all see browser like lynx which are fully terminal driven browsers as you can also simple fetch a web page and use a markdown transpiler that creates markdown from it. hope that helps |
| 02:03 | <frank-dspeed> | else you could use some service like my chromium virtual environment it is a scriptable chromium you can easy add some scripts to get screen reader support and that via cli |
| 02:03 | <frank-dspeed> | as you can send string instructions to it |
| 02:04 | <frank-dspeed> | i even have a project called Stealify Lang a Language Implementation Framework written in ECMAScript using ECMAScript Engine fundamentals |
| 02:04 | <frank-dspeed> | to implement languages IDL, DRL, and any Polyglot code |
| 02:05 | <frank-dspeed> | That should in future allow to code more delcarativ in general and so more accessiable |
| 02:06 | <frank-dspeed> | Combining the Stealify Lang to create a accessiblity Module that uses the chromium protocol to create a cli driven accessible useable lang is possible |
| 02:07 | <frank-dspeed> | it would then look like read page https://.... section #tag |
| 02:07 | <frank-dspeed> | we could implement a set of text instructions to use that then via voice and cli commands that send string text instructions |
| 02:08 | <frank-dspeed> | as we got voice to text and text to voice that solves the circle |
| 02:09 | <frank-dspeed> | in general stealfy lang is a good system mainly designed to compose openAI like software that takes text instructions which are in general more inclusiv and developer frindly |
| 02:11 | <frank-dspeed> | that would then enable people for example to access services like discord and join channels in a easy way |
| 02:11 | <frank-dspeed> | as we can use the full devtools protocol for that |
| 12:33 | <annevk> | TabAtkins: seems to have been closed, I banned the person for 30 days with notification as a warning |
| 12:41 | <frank-dspeed> | the disscussed trolling above mentioned issue by the way got closed by it's creator he liked the answer ignoring so was not the right thing to handle it only for information |
| 12:46 | <frank-dspeed> | conclusion there are no dumb questions in any case any question deserves a answer even if we do not understand why it gets asked. No KI knows why you ask it something we should act in the same way simple answer if possible. We can never assume educational Background or anything before i started to implement everything my self i was also under the Assumtion that a rfc or discussion is needed to get something started. |
| 18:23 | <kblom3> | kblom3: that is not a issue at all see browser like lynx which are fully terminal driven browsers as you can also simple fetch a web page and use a markdown transpiler that creates markdown from it. hope that helps |
| 18:24 | <frank-dspeed> | Sounds like you would need a so called forward proxy that is by the way the same that serviceWorker do implement in the userland |
| 18:24 | <kblom3> | I know that Lynx and the like will do what I am asking, but that requires extra work and it's not just ready for the worst of times. Most normal people will not do that, but they can type in "curl" followed by the website. Think of Twitter's "hashtags" before they were a thing, or "@" to reply to somebody, it could be the same for curl |
| 18:25 | <hacknorris> | I know that Lynx and the like will do what I am asking, but that requires extra work and it's not just ready for the worst of times. Most normal people will not do that, but they can type in "curl" followed by the website. Think of Twitter's "hashtags" before they were a thing, or "@" to reply to somebody, it could be the same for curl |
| 18:25 | <frank-dspeed> | hmmm ok sounds again now more like you need something like my chromium virtual environment |
| 18:25 | <frank-dspeed> | something that you can use via the cli that is able to handle any loading case via automation |
| 18:25 | <frank-dspeed> | so that you only get back the requested result if it is even possible |
| 18:26 | <frank-dspeed> | can you code in general do you know javascript? |
| 18:27 | <frank-dspeed> | there is a free solution called browserless.io it should get you up and running |
| 18:27 | <frank-dspeed> | they offer chromium headless packaged with puppeteer inside docker so a single unit to execute and use like a database |
| 18:28 | <frank-dspeed> | you can code a small cli that does the so called scraping which is the technical term for taking partial site page content |
| 18:28 | <kblom3> | I can code in Swift. Imagine learning a safe language and then finding out about JavaScript. I did look into it, but got sidetracked by CSS (which I know is a markup language). |
| 18:29 | <frank-dspeed> | oh use Typescript it will also do the job |
| 18:29 | <frank-dspeed> | then you got it more type save |
| 18:30 | <frank-dspeed> | but wait you say swift your a mac user right? |
| 18:30 | <frank-dspeed> | You can use the jshost of macos and automator app that they ship with the operating system |
| 18:31 | <frank-dspeed> | i would suggest to setup something with browserless.io and automator if you only target mac |
| 18:31 | <frank-dspeed> | https://support.apple.com/guide/automator/welcome/mac |
| 18:31 | <kblom3> | All this is too much to digest right now, what is "chromium virtual environment", is that line VM Ware, what's its purpose. |
| 18:32 | <frank-dspeed> | Chromium Virtual Environment simply refers to a special chromium version that has not even a static rendering backend |
| 18:32 | <kblom3> | I am not targeting macOS specifically, but yes, Terminal is a Linux/Unix thing, but I don't see why Command cannot be used, both ping, so both should be able to browse the web. Kind of. The idea being that websites can be translated into something familiar like ASCII. |
| 18:32 | <frank-dspeed> | it is not ready to get used in the wild |
| 18:33 | <kblom3> | Sorry, what is "static rendering backend" please ? |
| 18:33 | <frank-dspeed> | it is a similar concept to webkits wpe port using the fdo-gstreamer backend https://webkit.org/wpe/ |
| 18:34 | <frank-dspeed> | in general chromium when you install it will use your display manager to render the content of pages |
| 18:34 | <frank-dspeed> | Chromium VE does not do so it writes to something we call fdo a virtual file object that then can get used anywhere |
| 18:34 | <kblom3> | The idea was to be able to use the internet even if the country's infrastructure was attacked, at worst, or if the internet cables were wearing thin. The pandemic showed how reliant folk had to be on home delivery, but what if one was cut off, that was where I got the idea from as sometimes the inserted would be down and I could not do anything. |
| 18:35 | <frank-dspeed> | then the most simple is a forward proxy |
| 18:35 | <frank-dspeed> | it takes your requests and caches the needed resources |
| 18:35 | <frank-dspeed> | it is also able to modify the content to fit your needs |
| 18:35 | <kblom3> | So CVE is like a de-compiler ? |
| 18:36 | <frank-dspeed> | CVE is more then a Decompiler it is simple a modular chrome that can get composed while running it is less hard linked |
| 18:36 | <frank-dspeed> | and it has some features like it can do technical stuff that normal users do not need |
| 18:36 | <frank-dspeed> | it can cross arch compile it self via virtual cpu instructions |
| 18:36 | <frank-dspeed> | it can compile the whole chromium platform in your browser |
| 18:39 | <frank-dspeed> | And for technical people that is mind blowing before that was done it was like that |
| 18:39 | <frank-dspeed> | https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1abnqM9j6zFodPHA38JG1061rG2iGj_GABxEDgZsdbJg/edit#slide=id.i0 |
| 18:40 | <frank-dspeed> | Chromium is a large project! ~20000 build objects ~100 library objects 1 massive linked executable (~1.3GB on Linux Debug) |
| 18:41 | <frank-dspeed> | but what you need to overcome your country limits is a forward proxy |
| 18:42 | <frank-dspeed> | most best is you start with apache and mod pagespeed as starting point google setup apache mod pagespeed forward proxy |
| 18:42 | <frank-dspeed> | then you add varnish in front of that |
| 18:43 | <frank-dspeed> | varnish is a easy to use cache layer and apache is a easy to configure forward proxy and mod pagespeed gives you optimized results with sane defaults |
| 18:43 | <kblom3> | CVE sounds interesting, but it is still not the default environment. My needs are to fit around the existing default system, even if that is macOS right now. I came up with a workaround: For a supermarket lets say that the landing page was like https://wttr.in, which would be on a subdomain for obvious reasons, and it displays the different categories. curl is a GET request and so it would contain the instructions of what to do, but be limited by that. The was the products are displayed could be similar to https://tableconvert.com/json-to-ascii whereby a page for fruits which would be curl http://www.terminal.supermarket.com/fruit would simply pull a JSON request and display the backend data like prices and foodstuffs. Then, the user could get the reference, tot up the cost and pay via crypto and email off the shopping list. |
| 18:44 | <frank-dspeed> | thats what we did in chromium when you activate the bad connection and internet saving modes |
| 18:44 | <frank-dspeed> | json to ascii table is not that hard but i would go with json to markdown |
| 18:45 | <frank-dspeed> | Markdown is a good format for webpages in text only mode it automaticly strips none needed stuff and can directly take html input |
| 18:47 | <kblom3> | There is an option for markdown, it's a nice tool. |
| 18:47 | <frank-dspeed> | https://charm.sh/ |
| 18:47 | <frank-dspeed> | you can also look into that it is a TUI lib |
| 18:47 | <frank-dspeed> | it lets you code nice looking terminal interfaces with less effort |
| 18:48 | <frank-dspeed> | That has drag and drop windows in the terminal and so on |
| 18:48 | <kblom3> | I am having trouble understanding everything that you are telling me, so I have to look into stuff. It seems that Typescript is one of those many languages that sits a top of JS to make it more bearable ? |
| 18:49 | <frank-dspeed> | oh yes thats correct so your not a coder your self right? but you did play around with swift already. |
| 18:50 | <frank-dspeed> | The most best is that you learn docker now that will get you something useable |
| 18:50 | <frank-dspeed> | you can see it as package manager for network apps that normaly run on a server |
| 18:51 | <frank-dspeed> | most apps come packaged as docker containers with sane defaults so you do most of the time not need to learn the config |
| 18:51 | <kblom3> | TUI (Text User Interface), that Charm app looks pretty impressive, is that really drag and drop ASCII I see ? |
| 18:51 | <kblom3> | I am a coder |
| 18:51 | <frank-dspeed> | yes thats what you see there |
| 18:52 | <frank-dspeed> | your terminal is on the low level a file buffer with a char grid |
| 18:52 | <frank-dspeed> | it is written in go so you would need to get familar with go |
| 18:52 | <frank-dspeed> | which is in general not bad and a good incremental step |
| 18:53 | <frank-dspeed> | as go lets you do many things fundamental correct out of the box |
| 18:53 | <kblom3> | GO is popular I see |
| 18:53 | <frank-dspeed> | go is popular but not my favorit at all but it is better then the most |
| 18:53 | <frank-dspeed> | and on your skill level it is the right thing to do and go for |
| 18:55 | <linusg> | This is hardly on-topic anymore, perhaps continue the discussion in a DM instead of spamming the channel? |
| 18:57 | <frank-dspeed> | I guess we scratched a lot lets talk next week again :) that takes some time linusg i do not know what to say about that. When the Web is not the topic of WHATWG then we exactly found out why we got into that bad situation that we are in |
| 18:58 | <frank-dspeed> | Maybe closing WHATWG is a topic for this chan as it gets less and less needed and anyway bypassed by browser vendors? |
| 19:03 | <kblom3> | I thought that this was just a general channel ? |
| 19:04 | <frank-dspeed> | i also tought that |
| 19:04 | <kblom3> | Thank for your help. Charm looks really impressive, it would be nice to use it, but it may not fit my needs as nobody uses it i.e. normal people that shop at a supermarket though a website |
| 19:04 | <frank-dspeed> | i was in the miss assumption that it is web related i was maybe all the years in the wrong groups :) |
| 19:05 | <kblom3> | Well, back to my original question, do you think that HTML5 could evolve to allow for something like BubbleTea (Charm) to be embedded into Terminal ? |
| 19:06 | <kblom3> | My understanding is that there will be no HTML6, only evolution of the different elements to HTML5 |
| 19:06 | <frank-dspeed> | HTML is in that state already the developers are not in the sate thats the big problem the amount of developers doubles near all 3 years so we get every 3 years 50% devs with under 5 years of expirence |
| 19:06 | <frank-dspeed> | trained by people with less expirence and so on |
| 19:08 | <kblom3> | Why don't seasoned devs want to work on this stuff then ? |
| 19:08 | <frank-dspeed> | We have a problem to scale correct education most people learn from tutorials without the needed additional expanded context i can write books about educational problems i try to train developers since ages its not easy to find patterns to get that done i gave up to be fair |
| 19:08 | <kblom3> | Family commitments ? |
| 19:09 | <frank-dspeed> | and switched to coding tools and ide's that tell the developer how to do it correct as that scales better |
| 19:09 | <kblom3> | I learnt from online tutorials. But there's nothing like a mentor. |
| 19:09 | <frank-dspeed> | I guess a good configured IDE can solve many educational problems |
| 19:10 | <kblom3> | Swift's IDE isn't the best |
| 19:10 | <frank-dspeed> | They are all not the best there are fundamental problems that needed to get solved and as they got solved not everything got updated |
| 19:11 | <kblom3> | You say that "HTML is in that state already" but then perhaps I meant that Terminal should package a browser by default |
| 19:12 | <frank-dspeed> | it should but no one can pull that off without a mentor |
| 19:12 | <frank-dspeed> | if ou want to pull that off i could mentor that |
| 19:12 | <frank-dspeed> | i know more about the html parser then 99% of the coders on earth |
| 19:13 | <frank-dspeed> | including the history of all the possible implementation algos and so on. we could come up with a cleaner browser that does not even need to be terminal only :) |
| 19:14 | <frank-dspeed> | in fact this would not even be related to a browser it would be related to WInterCG Web Interoperable Runtimes Community Group |
| 19:15 | <kblom3> | Well, I actually wanted to look into building a decentralised news aggregator, which could be accessed via the command line, for obvious reasons, something flexible like that. I am nowhere near that, but if I could I'd like to message about certain questions, from time to time.. |
| 19:15 | <frank-dspeed> | if you want news aggregation you should DM me or use browserless.io and the scaping abilitys |
| 19:15 | <kblom3> | browser friendly too, but likely only through TOR |
| 21:15 | <hacknorris> | (btw - im still tinkering with custom elements 🤡) |