2020-03-02 [11:50:09.0000] this seems like an annex b grammar question that i'm not sure about - can anyone weigh in? https://github.com/acornjs/acorn/issues/923#issuecomment-593581439 [11:53:39.0000] I think JSC has bugs in this area [11:54:44.0000] engine262 uses acorn anyway [11:54:52.0000] it's very sad and I need to fix it [11:56:21.0000] ljharb: i agree with marjin's response there, but let me see what the spec says [11:57:01.0000] oh wait, that's a for-of [11:57:15.0000] there's nothing in annex b for for-of [11:57:37.0000] ah ok, then just a grammar question i'm not sure about :-) [12:45:56.0000] ah yeah I missed that it was for-of too, whoops 2020-03-05 [10:31:22.0000] hey, so what are people's thoughts about coronavirus now? [10:45:02.0000] Googlers can't travel thru at least May 31st [10:45:19.0000] (We'll probably end up cancelling the April CSSWG meeting.) [10:46:13.0000] to me it seems overly paranoid, but everyone's entitled to make that decision for themselve [10:46:14.0000] s [10:46:35.0000] i'd be more worried about countries closing borders and people getting stranded, than about actually catching anything [10:47:41.0000] Being trapped in an airplane for multiple hours with a coughed would make anyone paranoid. [10:47:55.0000] Cougher* [10:48:30.0000] personally it doesn't really worry me that much [10:49:05.0000] my wife and i are going on vacation to mexico in a week and a half. we'll wash our hands, and avoid letting people cough on our faces, and i think it'll be fine [10:49:21.0000] but either way the march meeting is surely going to be heavily remotely attended [10:51:28.0000] hopefully apple's got super beefed up AV [10:52:34.0000] on the one hand, there may be enough of us who are local to justify meeting in person; on the other hand, shu pointed out to me that this could be an apt opportunity to try a remote plenary and see what works and what doesn't, which I can't deny [11:01:02.0000] as long as apple's willing to host, and there's locals willing to attend, i'd prefer to go to a location that's not my house or my office, with good internet, even if most people are remote [11:22:38.0000] I imagine that most have already booked travel, as well. [11:22:51.0000] (if their company hasn't disallowed it) [12:22:03.0000] I'm more intrigued by what's gonna happen at the end of May [12:22:09.0000] like, what's the trajectory here? [12:22:30.0000] if we're in mega-pandemic land, i'll probs cancel the in-person of PayPal's Chicago meeting [12:22:46.0000] and if it's starting to chill out, I'll look forward to seeing all your smiling faces [12:33:14.0000] rickbutton: out of all the reasons to not cancel, "saving company money" is bottom of the barrel for me [12:33:57.0000] ljharb: we probably shouldn't say things like "than actually catching anything"? [12:34:37.0000] shu: 100% agree, but some pay for travel out of pocket [12:34:55.0000] rickbutton: oh yes definitely, emphasis on saving *company* money [12:35:44.0000] but so far i'm seeing twitter and microsoft recommending their entire workforce in bay area (and seattle area) to wfh until end of the month [12:36:03.0000] agreed though to that point, paypal's current moratorium on nonessential business travel is at least in part due to a concern of employees being caught up in a quarantine or other dragnet away from home. [12:37:35.0000] i think i do agree with deferring the decision to the host as the most reasonable thing to do here [12:40:34.0000] akirose: well, 1) santa clara county is home to known cases 2) delegates presumably having very varied risk profiles for exposure [12:48:21.0000] oh i get it [12:48:29.0000] <-- sick person [13:02:58.0000] shu: oh i meant, worried for myself. people can be worried about whatever they like :-) [13:10:26.0000] (in case i was sending the wrong message, i think everybody's personal, financial, and employer concerns should be respected; i didn't mean to be cavalier about risk) 2020-03-06 [20:14:53.0000] uh damn [20:15:52.0000] we got "please cancel attendance at any events, even if you're scheduled to speak" -- it's in the context of the travel ban but I think it means it period [20:16:23.0000] plenty of time for that to get lifted by 3/31 but... :-| [20:25:05.0000] tc39 plenary isn't an event, it's just an unusually pedantic meeting [20:31:15.0000] works for me :shipit: [20:31:52.0000] plenary is the norm everything else is an event [08:50:53.0000] bterlson: assuming I'm not prohibited from being there, I'd be happy to help facilitate 😓 [09:10:55.0000] hahahahahahaha Bakkot [10:14:11.0000] thank you, Ross! [15:36:09.0000] OH HI delegates [15:36:28.0000] can you please ensure that your availability is up to date in the doodle for the next meeting [15:36:35.0000] it is really important for the host to know numbers [15:40:04.0000] handy reflector link: https://github.com/tc39/Reflector/issues/270 [15:40:30.0000] (please do not post the doodle link here, since this channel has public logs; you can get there from the reflector, which is not public) 2020-03-07 [16:23:59.0000] now _definitely_ update the doodle. as in remove yourself once your flights are canceled. (see reflector) [16:25:23.0000] @channel [16:25:25.0000] "With an abundance of caution and the current sentiment in our industry the chair group and the host organization for the March plenary have decided to cancel the in person meeting and move to a remote format. We will follow up with more specific details next week but wanted to inform everyone as soon as we made a decision so that you have time to cancel travel arrangements. If you need any support from us with this [16:25:26.0000] please do not hesitate to reach out" [16:31:39.0000] rkirsling rickbutton mmarchini JaseW ghermeto Bakkot ljharb pouwerkerk you are marked as attending in the doodle so want to make sure you see this [16:31:51.0000] sidebar, who is globbot ? [16:31:56.0000] the logging bot [16:31:59.0000] AHhh [16:32:00.0000] hi globbot [16:32:05.0000] he never attends in person :( [16:32:09.0000] i see it, thanks. not stoked, because i have nowhere with good internet to spend 3 days that's not in my house. [16:32:30.0000] ljharb maybe you can find some other bay area folks to meet up with? [16:32:52.0000] sure, where would we go [16:32:56.0000] 👍 thanks for the heads up! [16:33:08.0000] don't the sbuxs there have google wifi [16:33:25.0000] i can't do a video call in a starbucks, it's too loud [16:33:27.0000] Thanks [16:34:25.0000] I suspected so [16:34:44.0000] everybody's office won't allow visitors; public places are too loud; my home has children running amok in it; i can't book any space in my office for 3 days :-/ [16:35:04.0000] if anyone has a suggestion, that'd be helpful <3 [16:36:14.0000] can you get your work to pay for a we work? [16:36:55.0000] MylesBorins: I respect that, thanks [16:37:34.0000] I'm not even certain that I'm allowed to go at this point, I was just trying to be optimistic, so this will prevent me from getting myself into trouble :P [16:38:03.0000] ljharb or like a hotel [16:39:17.0000] a wework might be ok, but this meeting was supposed to cost them nothing because it was a nontravel one :-/ [16:39:22.0000] a hotel won't have good enough internet, i suspect [16:39:44.0000] i'll certainly look into a wework-like solution, thanks [16:40:04.0000] I would guess this probably won’t be the only non-travel one this year [16:41:58.0000] MylesBorins: unregistered from in person and registered to remote, thank you for pinging me [16:43:48.0000] I'm still moving forward with planning Chicago in June [16:44:23.0000] If I have to cancel I have to cancel but I don't want to be caught in a situation where there's no heightened travel-related concern anymore and we haven't had a face-to-face in four months [16:45:35.0000] strong agree [16:48:22.0000] rickbutton: it was going to be the only non travel one for me, since it’s the only one in the Bay Area. Now there’s zero in the Bay Area :-/ [16:49:24.0000] it's in the Bay Area [16:49:26.0000] for you [16:50:31.0000] lol well yes. i mean it was going to be the only one i didn’t have to expense something for [16:51:09.0000] I’ll figure something out. If anyone else has a space that has good internet and can host locals, that’d be great too [17:06:31.0000] I have a studio apartment but um [17:06:35.0000] yeah. [17:07:01.0000] 😂 [17:42:23.0000] ljharb: can you edit https://github.com/tc39/proposal-import-meta/issues/17 to include webpack, babel, and rollup [17:43:32.0000] actually webpack is debatable, there's a loader but its not included by default [18:12:12.0000] i think default is what matters most for this one [18:22:10.0000] ljharb: rollup can be checked off, and engine262 unflag criteria is being in ecma262, so perhaps its ok to check it off too? [20:28:42.0000] you don't unflag in stage 3? [23:29:19.0000] ljharb: my goal is that regular engine262 should be the current normative specification [23:29:59.0000] stage 3 is disabled by default but very easy to enable, for example the big check boxes on engine262.js.org [23:31:18.0000] s/stage 3/other features/ 2020-03-09 [16:44:42.0000] devsnek: mind making a PR for bugfixes related to 1597, since you seem to be on top of them? :-) [16:45:54.0000] i'm waiting to see what people say about the execution context stuff [16:46:02.0000] but then yes i will open a pr [16:48:03.0000] awesome, thanks 2020-03-10 [00:49:08.0000] does anyone have contact details for Whymarrh Whitby from MetaMask? (please don't post them here) [08:48:02.0000] robpalme: kumavis would (they need an invite to here, too) [10:40:49.0000] I have now spoke to Whymarrh [10:40:51.0000] thanks 2020-03-11 [00:51:26.0000] it seems i'm an openjs foundation delegate now :D [00:59:27.0000] yay [12:34:58.0000] congrats devsnek! [13:05:40.0000] noice [14:16:09.0000] if anyone else here is in the Bay Area and with trouble to attend the meeting remotely, please let me know [14:22:55.0000] bradleymeck: ping [14:25:44.0000] Pong [14:55:57.0000] could someone please move me from the invited expert team to the delegate team on github [14:57:18.0000] devsnek congrats! on the team, you should probably ping one of the chairs [14:59:05.0000] akirose: perhaps? [15:00:55.0000] done [15:01:26.0000] thank you :) [15:22:04.0000] jridgewell: is logical assignment intending to go for stage 3 at this meeting? if so you should ask the editors for a review [15:22:48.0000] Do editors review at before 3 or 4? [15:25:30.0000] https://tc39.es/process-document/ [15:27:13.0000] stage 3 enterance criteria requires "All ECMAScript editors have signed off on the current spec text" [15:27:18.0000] Ahh [15:28:55.0000] Well… You want to review it? [15:29:01.0000] :wink [15:29:06.0000] 😉 [15:29:58.0000] yes but when you're going for stage 3 affects how we prioritize it [15:30:35.0000] Yah, I meant to advance this meeting since Daniel agreed to short-circuit semantics [15:32:43.0000] I'll make an issue now [15:59:42.0000] jridgewell: are there any tests for logical assignment? [15:59:53.0000] Not yet [16:09:51.0000] jridgewell: unsure of conformance but it appears to work https://gc.gy/51673181.png [16:13:27.0000] Can you point me to the code? 2020-03-12 [17:30:22.0000] jridgewell: https://github.com/engine262/engine262/commit/a38a19dca496fcad78951fd6d8e89246c01223b0 [17:35:28.0000] Looks right [11:01:25.0000] how do i transfer a repo out of tc39-transfers? do i transfer it to "tc39"? [11:10:40.0000] shu: only the chairs can do that [11:11:05.0000] (there's instructions at the bottom of the readme on https://github.com/tc39/proposals) [11:11:50.0000] specifically, my understanding is that only the chairs can accept the transfer, and there's a time limit for accepting the transfers, so the chairs just do the whole process once it's in tc39-transfer [11:12:01.0000] sidebar: we should update tc39/proposals to list the new editors [11:12:16.0000] how-we-work maybe needs a new section for how to do chair/editor handover which lists this sort of thing [11:12:33.0000] nah that's not how it works [11:12:37.0000] no? [11:12:53.0000] to transfer to tc39-transfer, the owner of the repo is added to tc39-transfer, and then they can just summarily move it in [11:12:59.0000] right yes [11:13:11.0000] I was describing the process following that point [11:13:11.0000] and since the chairs are owners in both tc39-transfer and tc39, they just summarily move it over when they get to it [11:13:33.0000] i'm not aware of any "request transfer" feature in github [11:13:58.0000] https://help.github.com/en/github/administering-a-repository/transferring-a-repository [11:14:06.0000] > When you transfer a repository that you own to another user account, the new owner will receive a confirmation email. The confirmation email includes instructions for accepting the transfer. If the new owner doesn't accept the transfer within one day, the invitation will expire. [11:14:16.0000] that's to a user account, not to an org [11:14:22.0000] but fair [11:14:25.0000] ahh, ok [11:15:20.0000] I didn't realize that the process was different for transferring to users vs orgs [11:17:55.0000] it's v different [11:18:06.0000] to a degree that it's an annoying problem for me in my other job [11:18:46.0000] i've continually complained to github that users and orgs aren't equally privileged in the majority of workflows/features [11:23:56.0000] i continue to be mostly ignorant of how GH works [11:26:46.0000] is this like, gitizens united [11:26:53.0000] (I'll see myself out) [11:29:15.0000] is that a soft g, like gente [11:34:55.0000] it's a g like in gif [11:35:00.0000] jitizens [13:19:07.0000] MylesBorins: should I add import.meta to the agenda [13:19:16.0000] yeah probs [13:19:34.0000] cooleo will do [14:07:20.0000] akirose: there are some odd formatting issues in the welcome email, should i message you a screenshot? [14:12:21.0000] MylesBorins: i assume 15m is enough time? [14:13:16.0000] maybe 30 [14:13:18.0000] since it is a stage 4 [14:13:19.0000] we can take time back later if we don't think we need it [14:13:29.0000] 👍🏻 [14:13:31.0000] don't tempt fate [14:15:40.0000] oh god i have write perms to agenda repo now [14:16:13.0000] i'm not in front of a git atm would someone mind deleting that commit out [14:16:30.0000] sure [14:16:55.0000] i'm so used to that creating a branch by default oops [14:17:30.0000] devsnek: also "stage" is "current stage" in that table [14:17:47.0000] oh oops [14:28:31.0000] oops 2020-03-17 [11:21:11.0000] some coworkers of mine were suggesting remote coffee breaks and I realized that this is something that could potentially be done among TC39ers too :) [11:21:22.0000] with the utmost of informality, obviously [11:42:27.0000] My coworkers are doing a daily coffee meeting [11:42:37.0000] 0 work, today we talked about video games and zombie movies [11:42:56.0000] Anything to keep a human connection [12:01:55.0000] yay [12:52:19.0000] i peer behind my living room drapes and hiss at people on the street [12:54:09.0000] Shu's a cat person apparently. [12:56:40.0000] in the literal sense :p [14:12:35.0000] @chairs: https://github.com/mobile/ [14:12:56.0000] (well, @everyone, but this seems like something the chairs would find especially useful) [15:39:19.0000] I've been using the android app for a while now [15:39:30.0000] it's fantastic for non-code-reciew tasks [15:39:39.0000] review* 2020-03-18 [04:43:33.0000] yeah, I'd be happy to have a remote coffee break call if anyone is interested [08:28:44.0000] Yeah, some friends of mine have set up a monday coffee/lunch call now, more would be fun. ^_^ 2020-03-19 [15:39:58.0000] should i be PRing changes to the agenda even if it's not a proposal thing? i always forget [15:40:05.0000] (it's a PSA in this case) [15:41:46.0000] if it requires a timeslot, it requires a PR [15:41:48.0000] I would say [15:42:25.0000] ok [15:42:40.0000] (s/a PR/an agenda PR/ I mean, of course) [15:43:46.0000] right, agenda PR 2020-03-20 [00:51:55.0000] typically the guideline has been, you only ever need to make a PR within the 10 day deadline, but it's nice to make one if people need to be notified [11:42:09.0000] ah i thought the deadline had already passed [11:42:36.0000] my perception of time has completely gone 2020-03-22 [11:39:48.0000] anybody know what Istvan means by ICT? 2020-03-23 [03:44:02.0000] hey folks, i have two ideas for breakout sessions [03:44:31.0000] hubs.mozilla.com -- you can walk around and talk to people, it gives a sense of physical space and is all in the browser, and zoom breakouts (needs to be done by a moderator) [03:44:41.0000] any thoughts about this? [03:44:51.0000] also, what do you all think about a "dinner" session? [06:35:51.0000] I do think a more informal non-moderated hubs like approach would be better [09:34:16.0000] ystartsev: by dinner session do you mean actually eating on VC? [10:04:24.0000] shu: I'd guess more it is a debriefing opportunity and opportunity to revisit things that might have needed offline discussion. [10:04:54.0000] is that what the dinners usually are? :upside_down_face: [10:05:19.0000] shu: thats what I've used them for previously [10:12:51.0000] shu: you grab a bottle of wine [10:12:56.0000] and get on a video call ;) [10:13:13.0000] we did this with a few friends of mine recently, we all cooked and chatted. worked surprisingly well [10:13:20.0000] naturally you don't have to eat on camera [10:13:26.0000] but yeah thats the idea [10:13:26.0000] i have some concerns about this scaling up [10:13:29.0000] sounds great smaller scale though [10:13:39.0000] so, i think that is where hubs comes in [10:13:47.0000] because its basically a proximity chat room [10:14:01.0000] ah, dinner session on hub [10:14:11.0000] the other thing we can do is zoom's breakout rooms but that doesn't allow you to wander as easily i think? [10:14:22.0000] i don't have much experience with that so i want to do a test session to see how it goes [10:14:35.0000] also, totally open for other ideas [10:17:28.0000] hubs seems like worth a try [10:19:14.0000] hubs looks so neat why have I never seen this before [10:21:04.0000] ystartsev: do you know what the discord bot does? [10:51:24.0000] this island for the room i created is kinda small [10:51:30.0000] ystartsev: how do i get a bigger island [11:01:19.0000] +1 to trying hubs [14:14:16.0000] shu there are other rooms in the "change scene" [14:14:20.0000] im also playing around with it [14:21:20.0000] I thought shu was playing Animal Crossing for a second there [14:21:51.0000] nah still on nioh 2 [14:22:19.0000] did you play sekuro? [14:22:22.0000] sekiro? [14:22:30.0000] i think its the second one.. [14:24:32.0000] too hardcore for me but it's beautiful to watch [14:28:21.0000] ystartsev: is there a hub room we could all join, to try it out? [14:29:00.0000] ystartsev: yes i'm a big souls-like games fan, i've played all from software games since ds1 [14:30:10.0000] yeah we can [14:30:51.0000] just a sec, need my headphones [14:31:34.0000] hub.link/nnzeeVQ [14:31:43.0000] nice shortlink [14:32:30.0000] ystartsev: i can hear you but looks like you can't hear me til i pick an avatar [14:32:36.0000] yes, possible [14:32:41.0000] i can read your text though [14:32:53.0000] the avatars are horribly ugly [14:38:53.0000] oh wow rooms can be created from like [14:38:57.0000] pretty much anything [14:40:00.0000] the outdoor meetup scene looks pretty useful for our case [14:40:39.0000] which one is that? [14:40:45.0000] yeah the bigger the space the better for us [14:40:47.0000] https://hubs.mozilla.com/spoke/projects/new?sceneId=RGZEYPY [14:40:55.0000] its a demo scene in the spoke creator [14:41:05.0000] but it has a panel and a huge open area [14:41:11.0000] lol amazing [14:41:35.0000] didnt realize it was so huge 2020-03-24 [20:45:26.0000] if anyone here uses discord, i'm making a js community discord server, hit me up for the invite link 2020-03-25 [13:05:55.0000] hey all [13:05:56.0000] I'm in the zoom if anyone wants to tech check [13:06:15.0000] /me realizes maybe posting that wasn't the best idea, alas. [13:07:49.0000] taking care of logging scrub 2020-03-27 [17:04:31.0000] ljharb: so about https://github.com/tc39/proposal-atomics-wait-async/issues/28 [17:05:28.0000] ljharb: jridgewell has now convinced me in the status quo, namely that validation errors *should* return early; trigger finger was too quick on making the agenda PR. i imagine no issues with deleting the item without a PR [17:05:56.0000] no, there'd be no issues with that, but i'm not sure if that's true [17:06:24.0000] axel's article is fine advice for userland, and something i tend to follow as well, but the explicit decision (after that was posted) for `async function` was that it's zalgo to have sync errors from an async function [17:06:42.0000] eg, it should be impossible for an `async function` to synchronously throw under any circumstances [17:07:31.0000] also `Promise.all()` rejects, it does not throw [17:07:48.0000] that's a pretty clear precedent for "all errors of any kind only ever reject" [17:08:45.0000] justin has graciously provided counterexamples that it does [17:08:49.0000] Promise.all.call({}, [1, 2, 3]) // => Uncaught TypeError: #