2020-11-06 [09:49:33.0000] looks like we just have 14 hours or so of topics scheduled, so we should have a couple hours of time for breakouts at the end of the meeting, if people don't all fall asleep [09:53:09.0000] scheduling constraints are likely to be plentiful this time around [12:15:04.0000] What are people's thoughts on adding a YAML object analogous to JSON? [12:21:44.0000] keith_m__: no [12:21:54.0000] bradleymeck: porque? [12:22:10.0000] YAML is a fickle thing, 1.2 is generally not terrible but it has breaking changes over time [12:22:15.0000] 1.0 has the norway bug [12:22:50.0000] if YAML was more stable / didn't have as much surprise factor, sure [12:23:23.0000] gotcha, that's fair. I didn't know about the norway bug (amusing) [12:24:25.0000] bradleymeck: Do you know of a common configuration format that's both stable and easier to read than JSON? Would such a format be worth considering? [12:24:44.0000] keith_m__: thats the most famous one, but there are others [12:24:56.0000] right that's why I went with YAML [12:25:13.0000] I guess TOML is the new hotness [12:25:16.0000] no, i mean bugs/surprises in YAML [12:25:44.0000] keith_m__: what are you seeking over pretty printed JSON i guess is the question [12:25:51.0000] more value types? [12:25:58.0000] JSON is just annoying to modify [12:26:18.0000] because it's structure is very restrictive [12:26:21.0000] its* [12:27:04.0000] Also, you can't have comments IIRC [12:27:14.0000] i don't know of one that is significantly less restrictive and relatively non-surprising, (see YAML surprises) [12:27:25.0000] keith_m__: sure you can, just use the same key as the one that follows it [12:27:39.0000] lol [12:27:54.0000] JSON.parse(`{"main": "this is a comment?", "main": "why"}`) [12:28:16.0000] a masterpiece of design right there! :P [12:29:14.0000] but yea, if your config has comments the fear of using comments as data is real [12:30:23.0000] what was the reason for not adding comments to the JSON spec again? just that we really don't want the format to split into two separate version? [12:30:24.0000] s [12:33:25.0000] rkirsling: comment used as annotation originally, now spec updates would be breaking to *everywhere* [12:34:10.0000] hence the repeated statements in plenary about how it is luckily not facing any issues still so we don't need to update it [12:34:43.0000] how do you mean annotation? [12:34:57.0000] keith_m__: also yaml is terribad [12:35:36.0000] ljharb: I'm open to other suggestions lol [12:35:58.0000] I picked YAML because that's what happens to be all over WK (from before my time) [12:36:02.0000] rkirsling: json has many forms of comments :-p `{ "//": "this is a comment", "foo": "this is a comment about foo", "foo": "this is the real value of foo" }` [12:37:27.0000] yeah I mean bradleymeck covered that but I'm trying to understand/remember the reason [12:37:54.0000] rkirsling: I believe because it was people were putting parser annotations in them or something [12:38:02.0000] ohhh [12:38:06.0000] rkirsling: {/*@type {Person}*/name:'Bradley Farias'} or somesuch being used to auto conversion [12:38:11.0000] I don't think that's a great reason to exclude them but 🤷‍♂️ [12:38:14.0000] yuck [12:38:24.0000] i assume it's also a fear of ecosystem churn - all of a sudden an unimaginable amount of json parsers would need updating [12:38:49.0000] but yeah as soon as there's a DSL in there, all sorts of security holes are inevitable [12:38:51.0000] ljharb: I think rkirsling meant back in the day when it was first created [12:38:52.0000] yeah I mean there's a definite benefit to a data format staying the same [12:38:55.0000] ah [12:38:56.0000] keith_m__: it just means JSON wouldn't be cross system stable, not the worst thing honestly but it would mean you have to know what *kind* of JSON you are handling [12:39:21.0000] well yeah back in the day would be good to know too but maybe harder to answer [12:39:23.0000] Oh, sorry I meant when they were removed [12:39:48.0000] i have enough issues thanks to "__proto__", "constructor", etc. being allowed in our language [12:40:05.0000] lol [12:40:19.0000] keith_m__: the number of github issues is real [12:40:22.0000] and makes me sad [12:40:33.0000] On which repo? [12:40:38.0000] /me is curious [12:40:44.0000] prototype pollution issues are on many many repos [12:41:08.0000] they're not even attack vectors 99% of the time, but the 1% means everyone gets spammed with related CVEs :-/ [12:41:17.0000] just gotta ensure that the first character of the file is a fancy J, like 𝔍 [12:41:29.0000] ljharb: wouldn't that be true regardless of `__proto__`/`constructor`? [12:41:51.0000] keith_m__: of CVEs, yes, but `__proto__` is a particularly easy one for libraries to fall into [12:42:04.0000] Oh you mean using it at all? [12:42:32.0000] i mean having a magic string property that changes the observable characteristics of the object in a fundamental way [12:42:39.0000] I don't actually know too much about XSS/library CVEs [12:42:41.0000] constructor is more about reachability than breaking things [12:42:56.0000] gotcha gotcha [12:42:59.0000] I think TOML is... ok [12:43:05.0000] better than YAML at least [12:43:23.0000] agreed, but low bar [12:43:45.0000] wish it didn't have so many moving parts [12:43:59.0000] I wonder why there isn't a popular but also not terrible json replacement [12:44:12.0000] json5's pretty popular [12:44:15.0000] is it just that no one has written one? [12:44:20.0000] other than "people put it in .json files", how is json5 terrible? [12:44:34.0000] ah yeah I forget about json5 [12:44:36.0000] (i'm assuming it is and i just don't know the ways) [12:46:03.0000] at this point i bet if node natively supported parse/stringify for JSON5, the push for npm to support `package.json5` would be pretty strong, and then the push for browsers to add `JSON5.parse` would become stronger [12:46:12.0000] but there's a lot of heavy dominos in that chain [12:46:42.0000] probably would need to have it in more languages first [12:46:48.0000] don't think I've seen a python project touch it, e.g. [12:47:25.0000] right [12:47:53.0000] Yeah, I think it's mostly an other languages thing [12:48:11.0000] my big problem with json5 is that it has the same issue as json, in that it does not specify an interpretation of the values [12:48:46.0000] so you end up with the twitter snowflake bug [12:48:53.0000] That's probably true for most of the "nice" configuration formats no? [12:49:14.0000] I think TOML does not have this problem? [12:49:32.0000] Oh, I've never looked at TOML... [12:49:32.0000] well, it says "Floats should be implemented as IEEE 754 binary64 values.", at the very least [12:49:36.0000] /me looks [12:49:55.0000] Is that not expected in JSON? interesting... [12:50:10.0000] the JSON spec does not impose any semantics at all [12:50:13.0000] In JS that's obviously true [12:50:17.0000] cf https://github.com/qntm/fastjson [12:50:32.0000] keith_m__: my old tweet on the glory of constructor/__proto__ injection vector: https://twitter.com/bradleymeck/status/1204225330103422976 [12:51:53.0000] Bakkot: LGTM lol [12:54:17.0000] bradleymeck: >.>, yikes [15:23:39.0000] if we have to add something new can it be toml 2020-11-10 [09:03:21.0000] anyone going to be around in 1hr who is up for helping me / robpalme test some transcription software ahead of the next meeting? just need people to hang out and talk for a few minutes. [14:35:44.0000] is there a draft schedule yet? [14:39:39.0000] oh nvm i forgot this meeting is CET, no need to worry about schedule conflicts 😓 [14:40:46.0000] was it ever clarified whether it's 12am PST or 1am PST? [14:42:42.0000] if its 10 CET then its 1 PST [14:47:39.0000] drousso 1am [14:48:05.0000] as per https://github.com/tc39/agendas/pull/880 [15:06:31.0000] `Temporal.PlainDateTime.from('2020-11-16T10:00').toZonedDateTime('Europe/Budapest').withTimeZone('America/Los_Angeles')` [15:09:12.0000] awesome [15:09:15.0000] gotta love daylight savings time [15:09:27.0000] why should the world be simple? 🙃 2020-11-11 [18:48:10.0000] JSC changes for #2210 and #2221 are landed 2020-11-12 [15:15:48.0000] Bakkot: how did the transcription API fare with technical terms? 2020-11-13 [17:09:16.0000] not as bad as I'd expected [17:09:19.0000] it got JavaScript, e.g. [15:32:01.0000] akirose: any chance of moving the `item` item earlier on wednesday? (a few folks have mentioned adjusting/removing the lunch break as well, not sure if that's an option) [15:41:47.0000] ljharb: wait item is where it is for you! [15:42:53.0000] akirose: in that case i appreciate it being no later :-) but i'd currently planned to only stay up til 3 am, and that one starts at 4am. [15:43:47.0000] (my schedule constraint is basically that i'm only available 10am-noon budapest time) [15:43:53.0000] OH GOD DAMMIT [15:43:56.0000] i misread [15:44:06.0000] sorry for the confusion, timezones suck :-( [15:44:06.0000] i got your availability backwards [15:44:14.0000] don't worry about it, totally my bad [15:44:34.0000] lol it would have been so much easier if i'd read more clearly—most of those were already in the AM [15:44:39.0000] i appreciate anything you can do here, this is probably going to be one of the toughest scheduling ones so far [15:45:07.0000] lol i cannot believe i did that 2020-11-14 [16:02:05.0000] ljharb: schedule updated [16:06:36.0000] akirose: glorious, my seratonin and melatonin levels thank you [16:47:24.0000] akirose: yeah can we shorten the lunch breaks [16:47:33.0000] i am afraid that i will fall asleep and not wake back up [16:47:56.0000] well, not wake back up in time [16:48:00.0000] i hope to not [16:48:02.0000] die 2020-11-15 [06:50:40.0000] I realized that this meeting starts from monday itself [06:50:51.0000] when is a good time to do a tech check? [06:51:17.0000] would any of the chairs be available before the meeting, for instance? [06:51:46.0000] yes - I'll be there from 9am CET (an hour before start) [06:52:05.0000] that would be perfect, thanks so much Rob! Real lifesaver! 2020-11-16 [00:38:39.0000] robpalme: 👋 can I get a tech check please? [00:38:53.0000] of course - logging in now [00:39:04.0000] perfect, thanks. [00:42:50.0000] looks like we need to kickstart team - it's in lobby mode [00:43:01.0000] okay [00:43:04.0000] let me rejoin [00:47:58.0000] does it work yet? [00:48:08.0000] i have issues my end [00:48:20.0000] ah okay [00:48:32.0000] is anyone else in? [00:48:48.0000] I'll join in a minute as soon as my tea's up [00:48:51.0000] I'm in [00:49:47.0000] i am in! it's working [00:55:34.0000] are we gonna delete all these notes from before the meeting starts? [00:57:42.0000] yes [01:00:02.0000] we're almost ready to begin! [01:00:55.0000] Teams is go! TCQ (including all new temperature checking) is go! Automatic dictation is go! [01:01:46.0000] futuristic TC39 meeting [01:03:48.0000] i see aki talking but hear nothing [01:03:50.0000] bakkot: you can turn it off during like voting topics and such, yeah? [01:04:03.0000] can other people hear or is it just me? [01:04:06.0000] by killing and restarting the process on my other machine, yes [01:04:12.0000] I can't hear Aki either [01:04:16.0000] We have automatic dictation? [01:04:44.0000] rbuckton: yes! [01:05:26.0000] I was about to ask if any of the chairs or the host had considered using Teams' built-in transcription feature as a way to help with note taking. [01:06:45.0000] i believe the transcription mechanism we're using will work with any VC app, so we're not coupled to any of them [01:10:12.0000] congrats to whoever fixed the tcq bug that used to require me to manually enter the meeting code even when using the link including the code. Thanks! [01:10:39.0000] oh wow yeah [01:14:13.0000] whoever is typing needs to mute? [01:14:15.0000] brad42: please mute when typing [01:14:22.0000] *brad4d [01:15:30.0000] sorry, i thought I was muted [01:18:42.0000] this is an unfortunately low turnout :-( [01:21:07.0000] 32 people, yeah its low.. [01:22:31.0000] how ominous [01:22:34.0000] "chairs are always listening" [01:23:07.0000] plot twist: big brother is actually TC39 chair [01:23:13.0000] robpalme: will the table on the 2020/11 agenda be updated with that info? [01:24:10.0000] doing it now! [01:24:21.0000] ty [01:27:42.0000] 35 participants in Teams now [01:28:03.0000] would be interesting to graph teams count over the course of each day :-p [01:29:32.0000] does anyone have a 60-minute they would be able to move to today? I'm thinking shu & rbuckton are maybe the only option? [01:30:03.0000] akirose: when today? still working on slides [01:30:14.0000] we're not gonna have the transcription do the slides presentations? would like to have those notes when possible [01:30:23.0000] *I would [01:30:26.0000] shu: 14:00 CET, last item of the day [01:30:49.0000] [I'll try to kill the note-taker during slides, as a rule] [01:31:04.0000] I would prefer to have notes during slides, if possible [01:31:07.0000] Bakkot: why? notes during slides are useful [01:31:15.0000] there's often a lot of interesting stuff that people say during presentations [01:31:17.0000] hm, ok [01:31:27.0000] I felt like we killed the notes before mostly to give humans a break [01:31:30.0000] hm, we don't usually take notes during slides [01:31:31.0000] akirose: i should be ready by then if you need to move me [01:31:37.0000] HERO [01:31:38.0000] littledan: same [01:31:39.0000] humans still need a break, is the main thing [01:31:41.0000] seems fine to do so tho, ofc [01:31:49.0000] but, you can update it afterwards [01:32:02.0000] Bakkot: then just take a break, we stil have the transcription [01:32:12.0000] transcription is... not great without live correction [01:32:46.0000] seems like it depends on the accent and speaking style quiet a bit [01:32:53.0000] (though it varies by speaker; it does worse with non-American/British accents, unfortunately) [01:32:53.0000] +1 to michaelficarra, would totally like to have notes from slides too. [01:33:11.0000] it seems like speaking slower is better, too [01:33:20.0000] often the slides don't have speaker's notes and it's not easy to decipher what was said after the preso [01:33:23.0000] plus, you'll probably avoid umms and ahhs that way [01:33:38.0000] shu, akirose: ryzokuken and I have already written our Temporal slides and could go, if that's easier for you [01:33:42.0000] marja_: also, some people put very little detail on the slides themselves [01:33:45.0000] if it's in the afternoon [01:34:08.0000] The transcription is comically incoherent [01:34:22.0000] yeah, sometimes a slide is just a code snippet, and it's practically impossible to know what was said about that code snippet [01:34:30.0000] wsdferdksl for this particular speaker or previous ones? [01:34:45.0000] littledan: I'm all settled but it's v helpful to know y'all's slides are ready to go [01:34:56.0000] It depends on the speaker. About half of them… [01:34:59.0000] (this one, yes, it's very poor; I'm not fixing it live and it's also doing worse than with previous speakers) [01:35:33.0000] to be fair, I have a hard enough time understanding Istvan myself [01:35:43.0000] robpalme: what is the correct URL for 2021 schedule/logistics slides? [01:35:43.0000] I think if we get a block of incoherent notes and the speaker isn't available to correct it, it's fine to delete it [01:36:03.0000] https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1vsOSn9alFLnmtYStNt71_KJU6uDW1nm-GsqRRIfajTw/edit [01:36:09.0000] thanks [01:36:53.0000] Istvan seems clear to me. I have a lot less trouble understanding his speech than some other speakers here. But the transcription doesn't like him. [01:36:58.0000] I have PR'd the dates to the agenda - they are already in the calendar [01:41:12.0000] Aki: you are echoing? [01:41:26.0000] maybe it's coming from someone else though, sorry [01:45:37.0000] lmk if you think it's me next time i talk [01:59:16.0000] It seems MM mention a issue of speccing iterator/generator ? Where is the issue we can follow ? [02:00:59.0000] haxjs: not an issue, just a question, which was answered [02:01:22.0000] haxjs: whether the Yield macro could also send/receive a value - which it can [02:05:27.0000] Aki responded to a question by asking for questions to be put on the queue and then ignored the queue. [02:05:36.0000] ljharb Thank u, hope it can also work with `function.sent` proposal (receive the first value) which may be affected by the changes. [02:06:23.0000] wsdferdksl: what's the lookahead bug? could you please file an issue if there isn't one already? [02:06:26.0000] haxjs: i would expect it either has no effect, or makes it slightly easier to specify [02:07:37.0000] wsdferdksl: I asked for questions to be directed to the Issues queue [02:08:03.0000] (updated "meeting info" link in topic) [02:08:21.0000] So we're not using tcq any more? [02:08:59.0000] of course we are [02:09:02.0000] those were status updates [02:09:06.0000] not discussion topics [02:09:53.0000] It's still not cool to just ignore questions. [02:10:59.0000] I don't want chairs silently doing that. [02:11:31.0000] i didn't ignore. I'm sorry you we seemed to miss each other there. [02:12:42.0000] Aki, you did. You moved on to the next item without draining the tcq. [02:14:59.0000] akirose: i can talk about gus's item if there's time after the other normatives are discussed [02:15:08.0000] ooh neat thanks [02:16:02.0000] Bakkot: funny enough, there is a big spec editorial inconsistency for using else, otherwise and using ; or . before inline else/otherwise. [02:18:43.0000] leobalter: still today? [02:18:49.0000] I thought we cleared that up recently [02:21:33.0000] brad4d and others: please make sure you've added yourself to the attendees list in the notes! [02:21:45.0000] @wsdferdksl I think Aki directed your item on lookaheads to the reflector? the status updates section of the meeting is not really meant for discussion - though we do not intentionally ignore tcq [02:21:52.0000] it helps note takers quickly grab initialisms [02:22:14.0000] (and I'm sure is also good for posterity purposes) [02:24:27.0000] +michaelficarra done, thx [02:24:38.0000] and I lost my connection [02:25:50.0000] we load DanielR from Teams [02:25:55.0000] we lost [02:28:20.0000] shu: So were talking about searching the web for "await x ** y" or internal google code? [02:28:48.0000] msaboff: brad4d said he searched internal google code [02:29:03.0000] msaboff: i was talking about searching https://httparchive.org/, which is public code [02:29:10.0000] Got it. [02:29:39.0000] it's too big to download and search locally, so you need to craft some bigtable query for it [02:30:04.0000] Yeah, that's why I was wondering. [02:31:52.0000] littledan wsdferdksl: the grammar limits is something I'd really enjoy to discuss but 2:30AM is not a time I can really do it with my brain properly in order [02:32:09.0000] yes, I didn't want to get into the discussion today either, but just register my disagreemeent [02:32:38.0000] the transcription really, really wants to transcribe "annex B" as "NXB" [02:33:25.0000] it's unfortunate my connection is dropping and the conclusion was to follow up with additions to Test262. I hope this comes as a discussion at Test262 [02:36:08.0000] Bakkot: sounds pretty similar [02:36:15.0000] and then I have a strong agreement with littledan in this different topic. [02:36:21.0000] :) [02:36:46.0000] littledan: (echo chamber) who benefits of the optionality? [02:41:00.0000] chairs: i think the queue has the wrong topic [02:41:10.0000] it does my b [02:41:21.0000] gibson042: can you re-add your piece in a sec? [02:41:22.0000] oh wait [02:41:24.0000] that's [02:42:06.0000] akirose: yeah, we're good [02:44:46.0000] ty [02:54:09.0000] ljharb: __proto__ getter/setter are bundled too, right? [02:54:26.0000] and separate from __proto__ syntax? [02:54:36.0000] michaelficarra: oh, yes, true. akirose can we have 15 seconds after this to confirm that? [02:54:47.0000] or wait [02:54:57.0000] michaelficarra: the getter is fine, it's only the setter that presents security issues, no? [02:55:36.0000] ystartsev: I think our current process provides much of the appropriate safeguards [02:55:44.0000] ok [02:56:42.0000] what we might do is require an implementation or two for normative PRs before landing [02:57:03.0000] though this particular thing wasn't done as a small change, it was part of a big feature [02:57:05.0000] That may be a good idea, we've started tracking normative prs more closely [02:57:37.0000] Bakkot: I heard a mention about Test262, does it need any update to match 2210? [02:58:10.0000] leobalter I'm not sure, but rkirsling has been pretty on top of those things [02:58:35.0000] I'd suggest to follow up with an issue there [02:58:55.0000] to avoid tests that would now become wrong [02:59:40.0000] brad4d: it's the same worry as something that has never thrown suddenly throws, even if it's often a logical error [02:59:59.0000] Bakkot: kill the bot until after lunch? [03:00:10.0000] michaelficarra done [03:00:50.0000] brad4d: historically we've also had issues with changing runtime errors to early errors, like with `f() = e` [03:00:52.0000] akirose: heads up that i can do the default constructor topic any other day, but i'm going to bed, unless someone else wants to handle it after the break [03:02:36.0000] @ljharb default constructors is first thing tomorrow [03:02:42.0000] great [03:04:45.0000] Hallway track is in Hubs (I won't post the URL here) [03:04:54.0000] akirose robpalme not a super constraint, but I'd like to "lock" the Realms presentation as currently set in the draft schedule or for the end of the day (same time slot) in another day [03:05:35.0000] leobalter: i'll make a note of it as a schedule constraint [03:07:07.0000] thanks! My constraint is more like a "please lock the time after its set in the draft" so I can get my coworkers to join. [03:07:22.0000] and I appreciate the draft schedule so much! [03:08:21.0000] the draft schedule is one of the most brilliant tools I've seen for the management of the meetings [03:08:38.0000] thanks, that means a lot to me. we put a ton of work into it, i'm so glad it's helpful ♥️ [03:09:23.0000] i was so nervous to share it when i first started doing it because I was afraid people would get mad when things inevitably moved around, but it looks like the actual upshot is people understand how hard it is to tetris that shit together 😄 [03:10:13.0000] akirose also it means those changes get telegraphed better, which is great [04:01:12.0000] we are starting the second session now [04:20:20.0000] do we have enough note-takers? [04:20:38.0000] seems so [04:21:23.0000] ty [04:40:24.0000] transferable sharedrealm is great! Hope we can have that soon! [04:44:25.0000] as someone who works for a company making a significant investment in JavaScript-on-MIPS, I appreciate the callout to "maybe MIPS" here [04:45:35.0000] FWIW here's a sketch I made for user-definable postMessage that I wrote https://github.com/littledan/serializable-objects/ (this is different from binary/JSON serialization) [04:51:34.0000] not taking is going REALLY well right now :-) [04:51:36.0000] *note [04:54:41.0000] I am enjoying this a lot more than usual note taking [05:03:06.0000] I think the results are mostly better, but I still find it draining and hard to simultaneously follow the actual content [05:04:22.0000] when there are a lot of errors its hard to focus, but when michael was talking , the transcription was so good that i caught more of it than usual [05:26:40.0000] I'd prefer a match-with-indices method or something [05:27:00.0000] whether you want indices is a property of the current match, not of the regexp itself [05:27:13.0000] putting it in the flags is inappropriate IMO [05:27:34.0000] could exec have new param ? [05:27:36.0000] A flag doesn't necessarily mean "instead of", but could be in addition to [05:27:45.0000] we've looked at all of these [05:29:19.0000] The problem with a param is `@@match` [05:30:56.0000] oh, forgot `@@match`... then i have to support new flag :P [05:34:17.0000] btw the sticky flag has already made this category error that we are talking about [05:34:27.0000] maybe we could use a uppercase for those flags affect the result :) [05:34:38.0000] all of the other flags affect what the regexp actually means [05:34:58.0000] sticky affects how it is used, and this flag would affect how the results are presented [05:35:24.0000] I don't think we should make this error again [05:45:27.0000] I realise there's difficulties with modifying the RegExp APIs to put this information in the appropriate place, but I think it's worth looking into it [05:45:47.0000] I'm open to another suggestion as well, but of the four options the flag has the least issues. Callbacks and option bags have subclassing concerns, new methods overcomplicate the api surface of RegExp and limit retrieving indices to those methods (i.e., they wouldn't be available from `String.prototype.match`, etc.) [05:50:37.0000] Other languages don't need a flag for this because they already provide access to both the strings and indices (usually by doing the opposite of what v8 and JSC are doing and only storing the indices and deriving the strings). Trying to change an engine to do the same ended up with hard-to-optimize internals due to the fact we represent a `RegExp` exec result as an `Array` with a few extra properties added on. [05:56:03.0000] gibson042: I've been considering proposing the `n` and `x` flags at a future meeting, along with a few other RegExp nice-to-haves. [06:02:25.0000] yep, I've considered the same from time to time. And it's also just generally important to me that JS does not define a RegExp flag used for a different purpose by other languages. [06:05:56.0000] that was amazing - we sustained 38 attendees to the end. [06:06:28.0000] 🥳 [06:06:42.0000] make sure you subtract one for the note taker bot [06:07:12.0000] 47 pages of notes for 4 hours of plenary, that's gotta be a new record [06:07:13.0000] are you kidding, they were definitely the workhorse of the group! [06:07:23.0000] oh yeah what was i supposed to clarify in the notes [06:07:29.0000] running on fumes i still got like 2 more mtgs [06:07:30.0000] gibson042: still not people [06:07:41.0000] but do they satisfy a legal definition of personhood [06:07:46.0000] shu: search for TODO [06:07:59.0000] i believe bladerunner covered this [06:08:42.0000] and maybe that film with will smith and the moving teddy bears [08:51:44.0000] littledan: is the decorators meeting still happening tomorrow, given it’s tc39 week? [09:59:56.0000] rbuckton re: callbacks have issues with subclassing, didn't we officially decide we no longer care? [10:00:04.0000] as long as it doesn't break existing code, anyway [10:29:45.0000] Bakkot: thanks again for presenting #2210 [10:39:00.0000] yup yup [10:39:03.0000] hope I did it justice [10:41:10.0000] I'm certain you did [10:41:12.0000] > (sighs) I do not object, but very reluctantly. [10:41:16.0000] is pretty funny though [10:47:50.0000] omg I can't decide which of Shu's decks is more amazing [10:49:12.0000] Bakkot: also re "all hands" -- I just meant that I'm in the midst of two weeks of basically being on-call during waking hours haha [10:50:54.0000] for PS5 launch (since we've yet to launch in Europe) [10:51:52.0000] also webkit contributors' meeting is today and tomorrow on pacific time [10:54:55.0000] ah, well, close enough [10:55:44.0000] :) [10:56:05.0000] reviewing the notes - man do we produce a lot of text [10:57:37.0000] mhm [10:58:17.0000] capturing everything that's said instead of just the things the note takers catch appears to have ~tripled the wordcount (25k words vs 8k words) [10:58:39.0000] a lot of that is just going to be that we have notes for the presentation too, I guess [10:59:02.0000] yeah I was surprised that the presentations got transcribed [10:59:22.0000] I was going to turn it off for those but a couple people said they'd prefer they be captured [10:59:42.0000] ahh alrighty [11:01:32.0000] i think it depends on the presentation (e.g. if the linked presentation has speaker notes or lots of in-slide content then it's not as needed) [11:24:59.0000] yeah. but in practice I think all or almost all the speakers say a lot of things that aren't precisely captured by the slides and speaker notes. [12:02:09.0000] There are soooo many notes this time [12:02:40.0000] We should continue doing this. 2020-11-17 [19:30:15.0000] rickbutton: is the records and Tuple monthly call still happening in 15.5 hours? [19:34:13.0000] rough if true [00:54:57.0000] can anyone contact Frank Tang - we want to see if Intl.Enum can be brought forwards to today [01:01:45.0000] It's a good day when the notes document starts with "Yes, sir. Take it off." [01:01:58.0000] (brought to you by autotranscribe) [01:04:54.0000] robpalme: the best person to contact Frank would be sffc, IMO [01:06:34.0000] typically, I would avoid normative changes with strictly editorial motivation, but I think this ends up with a nicer semantics [01:08:15.0000] oh I guess it was originally motivated by non-editorial reasons, which makes sense [01:09:47.0000] ystartsev: I also don't understand how iterator helpers are impacted [01:10:32.0000] littledan: it kind of sounds like your active mic is on your phone in your pocket [01:11:03.0000] michaelficarra: the comment I got from the people involved was "this simplification looks good, we had to jump through similar hoops when implementing iterator helpers" [01:11:04.0000] This is a very positive simplification [01:11:15.0000] I want to note that we did discuss this path in the past [01:11:35.0000] It created extra load for implentations and no one had a particular use for it [01:11:40.0000] michaelficarra: i wasn't directly involve in the implementation but i can get further details [01:11:57.0000] We decided to leave it in because engines thought it might be more intuitive for developers [01:12:02.0000] ystartsev: it's not a big deal, but I am curious [01:12:15.0000] I don't think this is a very strong intuition though. I like the change. [01:22:06.0000] is this supposed to say who voted for what [01:22:32.0000] ystartsev: ^ [01:22:45.0000] devsnek: as in, the list of names? [01:22:49.0000] yea [01:22:51.0000] yes, that was requested in the reflector [01:22:55.0000] cool [01:23:09.0000] is daniel R on irc? [01:23:12.0000] this appears to be contentious though, it would be good to have a direct conversation about it. i have no strong opinion [01:23:42.0000] i don't mind that much either [01:23:48.0000] just surprised me [01:24:09.0000]