| 00:34 | <Hixie> | should start < loopStart < loopEnd < end be enforced, or should it be possible to have a timeline like |---<loopStart>---<start>---<loopEnd>---<end>---| |
| 00:34 | <Hixie> | ? |
| 00:34 | <Hixie> | (othermaciej?) |
| 00:37 | <Lachy_> | I don't think it would make sense to have loopStart before start |
| 00:37 | <Lachy_> | but shouldn't it be start <= loopStart < loopEnd <= end |
| 00:37 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: yo |
| 00:37 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: in meeting |
| 00:38 | <Hixie> | you could imagine a case where you loop and you have a sound between the loops but not at the start or end |
| 00:38 | <Hixie> | that would need loopStart or loopEnd to be outside the start...end bit |
| 00:38 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I'm not sure - seems like there is no need to force it |
| 00:38 | <Hixie> | k |
| 00:39 | <Hixie> | we do have to assume that the starts are before the ends, i think |
| 00:39 | <othermaciej> | yes |
| 00:40 | <othermaciej> | impossible to splice together a sane timeline otherwise |
| 00:41 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 05:32 | <tylerr> | Evening all. |
| 05:35 | <Lachy_> | Hi tylerr |
| 05:35 | <tylerr> | Hey! Lachy_, how's it going? :-) |
| 05:37 | <Lachy_> | I'm fine, u? |
| 05:37 | <Lachy_> | how are you going with those articles? made any progress? |
| 05:37 | <tylerr> | Trying to come up with a half-witty, half-relevant site name. |
| 05:38 | <Lachy_> | I thought you were just going to publish them on the whatwg blog |
| 05:38 | <tylerr> | Oh I am, this is for my personal one. :-) |
| 05:38 | <tylerr> | And I've got the groupings figured out. I'm now working on use cases. |
| 05:39 | <Lachy_> | are you trying to plan all articles at the same time, or just working on 1 at a time? |
| 05:39 | <tylerr> | Working on one group at a time. |
| 05:40 | <tylerr> | So say for the "prose" section, I'd like a few use cases. |
| 05:42 | <tylerr> | One that covers <p> and <hr>/<br> and one that covers <dialog>. |
| 05:42 | <tylerr> | So on and so forth through the rest of the sections. |
| 05:43 | <tylerr> | I'll also have an article that addresses the various predefined class names. |
| 05:46 | <Lachy_> | <dialog> is easy: IRC or instant message chat logs! |
| 05:47 | <tylerr> | Lachy_: You read my mind. :-) |
| 05:47 | <Lachy_> | I don't think you should really bother covering such basic elements as <p>, <br>, <hr>, etc. They're already widely used and generally people know what they're for |
| 05:47 | <tylerr> | Can you imagine <dialog> tags injected with Microformat hCard code? Mmm... |
| 05:48 | <Lachy_> | nah, that was one of the use cases we had in mind when we came up with dialog |
| 05:48 | <tylerr> | Oh sure, that would be for my beginner articles. |
| 05:48 | <tylerr> | Ahh. |
| 05:48 | <Lachy_> | it was also to address the mistake in HTML4 that <dl> could be used for dialog |
| 05:49 | <tylerr> | Aye, I always wondered about that. Now it makes sense to use <dt> and <dd> inside a <dialog>. |
| 05:49 | Lachy_ | wants to do one on video soon, as soon as the draft stabalises |
| 05:49 | <tylerr> | Nice! |
| 05:49 | <tylerr> | I'd consider doing a <canvas> to start. |
| 05:50 | <Lachy_> | I don't want to do canvas, it's been done before (elsewhere) |
| 05:50 | <Lachy_> | but you can do it |
| 05:50 | <tylerr> | Oh. I'll find the link. I don't want to reinvent the wheel. |
| 05:50 | <tylerr> | I'd rather "pave the cowpaths". ;-) |
| 05:50 | <tylerr> | Instead of widen the road. |
| 05:50 | <Lachy_> | there's plenty of articles on canvas, it's been around for nearly 2 years |
| 05:50 | <Lachy_> | look up Plot Kit |
| 05:51 | <tylerr> | Ah see, this is what I get for wanting to expand my horizons in web development only a month or so ago. |
| 05:51 | <tylerr> | Thanks will do. |
| 05:51 | <Lachy_> | also ExplorerCanvas on source forge |
| 05:52 | <tylerr> | So far all I've focused on is accessibility and standards-based design, so I haven't explored many of the custom elements. |
| 05:52 | <tylerr> | *browser elements |
| 05:53 | <tylerr> | What's the port for the W3 server? I'm setting up my home connection to it. |
| 05:56 | <Lachy_> | the IRC server? |
| 05:56 | <Lachy_> | irc://irc.w3.org:6665/html-wg |
| 05:56 | <tylerr> | Great thanks! (was looking for the 6665 part) |
| 16:40 | <annevk> | http://doyouwanttodie.com/2007/03/27/more-changes/ |
| 16:40 | <annevk> | (my reply is a reference to what he wrote on his about page) |
| 16:52 | <gavin_> | haha |
| 16:54 | <gsnedders> | reality sucks |
| 17:01 | <Dashiva> | annevk is going all philosophical on us |
| 17:01 | <Dashiva> | next it'll be analogies about butterflies and boulders, no doubt about it |
| 18:18 | <othermaciej> | hello all |
| 18:19 | <annevk> | hi maciej |
| 18:19 | <Hixie> | hey |
| 18:21 | <othermaciej> | hi annevk |
| 18:21 | <othermaciej> | hello Hixie |
| 18:22 | <annevk> | Hixie, when will you commit the new video stuff so I can read some diff? |
| 18:22 | annevk | reads /source atm |
| 18:24 | <annevk> | also, " If the same URI has been registered multiple times, removing it must only remove one instance of that URI for each invokation of the method." contains a markup error around "method" |
| 18:24 | <annevk> | everything after it is marked up as <code> |
| 18:25 | <Hixie> | annevk: when it's done, right now i have a few more paragraphs to do |
| 18:26 | <annevk> | fair enough |
| 18:26 | <Hixie> | it'd be done last week if i hadn't started feeling ill over the weekend and then had the csswg meeting this week |
| 18:27 | <Hixie> | markup should be fixed |
| 18:28 | <Philip`> | (For that quote: "Did you mean: invocation") |
| 18:31 | <othermaciej> | wow, Gerv got really worked up over codecs |
| 18:31 | othermaciej | wonders whether to reply or just let the conversation end |
| 20:24 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: is <video> v1 going to have a default scriptless way to start and stop the video? |
| 20:24 | <annevk> | contextmenu |
| 20:26 | <hsivonen> | I think v1 should, by default, allow controller UI on hover and at minimum allow play/stop without script, e.g. by clicking the video. |
| 20:27 | <hsivonen> | disabling these should be done by the script when the script wants to take over |
| 20:27 | <hsivonen> | if minimum default UI isn't in v1, it is going to hurt later on |
| 20:27 | <hsivonen> | and disabling the UI via an attribute is bad, because it isn't known if scripts will run |
| 20:28 | <hsivonen> | s/at minimum allow/at minimum require/ |
| 20:30 | <annevk> | the idea is to enable the UI through an attribute |
| 20:32 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I disagree then. I haven't read all the <video> messages, yet, so I've been hesitant to send my UI-related opinions to the list |
| 20:32 | <Hixie> | we're already past v1 |
| 20:32 | <om_lunch> | I don't think you want both UA ui and custom script-driven UI on the same element |
| 20:32 | <Hixie> | but we're going to have a declarative way of enabling ui, yes |
| 20:32 | <othermaciej> | (good day gentlemen) |
| 20:32 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: why not script-based disabling of the UI? |
| 20:32 | <Hixie> | or that |
| 20:32 | <Hixie> | same idea basically |
| 20:33 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: more reliable |
| 20:33 | <Hixie> | i agree the second is more reliable |
| 20:33 | <Hixie> | it also causes flicker though |
| 20:33 | <othermaciej> | the conditions under which you have video but not script seem unlikely |
| 20:33 | <othermaciej> | except for people with a script phobia that exceeds their desire to successfully browse the web |
| 20:33 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: not if the spec gives guidance that the UI should not change the dimensions of the replaced element |
| 20:34 | <hsivonen> | e.g. it should be superimposed on hover as in iTunes or full-screen QuickTime Player |
| 20:34 | <othermaciej> | doesn't that go a bit too far in mandating the UI? |
| 20:35 | <othermaciej> | especially since very little web-based video has a UI like that currently? |
| 20:35 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: the use case is that you aren't youtube and just want to include video to illustrate some prose |
| 20:35 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: in which case you say <video ui=on> or whatever |
| 20:36 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: considering all the issues Apple's own docs have had to cover about the movie controller height, I'm pretty convinced that a superimposed UI is the way to go |
| 20:36 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: well, the HTML spec seems like a bad place for novelties in UI design |
| 20:36 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: it is not novel. QuickTime supports it already |
| 20:37 | <othermaciej> | can you point me to a web video with hover controls? |
| 20:37 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: we're not mandating ui (what if the ui is that the controls are in another window, and the window can dock to hte <video>, and...) |
| 20:37 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: but i'm sure there's a good solution for this, i'll look into it when i'm doing fixing looping and seeking |
| 20:37 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: sure, but you could mandate that the UI mustn't change the size of the replaced element rectangle |
| 20:38 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: opera's second <video> element demo implements their ui by hovering over the video :-) |
| 20:38 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: I don't have Web examples off the top of my head although I have a feeling that I've seen such Flash |
| 20:39 | <annevk> | Hixie, we have a native UI or you mean controls done by the page? |
| 20:39 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: anyway, the precedent I'm citing is iTunes |
| 20:39 | annevk | should prolly download some internal builds... |
| 20:39 | <othermaciej> | hey, I don't think hover UI is bad or wrong, I just think it's not the norm, so saying UAs are required to do it is inappropriate (even more so than normal mandating of UI) |
| 20:40 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: how would you otherwise deal with the size of the replaced element rectangle staying predictable? |
| 20:42 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: I'm guessing default UI controls are most likely to be desirable in cases where you are not doing extensive pixel-perfect styling; but regardless, as long as there is a way to set the size of the video content box, I think that is good enough |
| 20:42 | <Hixie> | annevk: native |
| 20:42 | <Hixie> | oh |
| 20:42 | <Hixie> | uh |
| 20:43 | <Hixie> | "we" = oper |
| 20:43 | <Hixie> | a |
| 20:43 | <Hixie> | you have html controls by the page |
| 20:43 | <Hixie> | which overlay the <video> |
| 20:43 | <annevk> | we should prolly unify the <video> events and progress events... |
| 20:43 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: I don't know if the QuickTime for Windows controller is now as tall as the Mac version, but in the past it wasn't and it sucked big time for QuickTime embedding |
| 20:43 | <Hixie> | they are |
| 20:43 | <annevk> | Hixie, ah ok |
| 20:43 | <annevk> | progress events doesn't have "stalled" and "begin" is "loadstart" |
| 20:44 | <Hixie> | they have 'begin' last i checked |
| 20:44 | <Hixie> | 'stalled' is new, yes |
| 20:44 | <annevk> | http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/progress/Progress.html?rev=1.10 |
| 20:44 | <Hixie> | but that's video-specific probably |
| 20:44 | <Hixie> | when did begin become loadstart |
| 20:44 | <Hixie> | weird |
| 20:44 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 20:44 | <Hixie> | well the idea is that they are synced |
| 20:45 | <annevk> | k |
| 20:45 | <Hixie> | i'll fix it again when one of the two drafts is more stable |
| 20:45 | <Hixie> | (either one) |
| 20:45 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: I agree it's annoying - default controller will probably only be useful for cases like having it as a <figure> in the middle of a blog post where you don't care about metrics of the whole element |
| 20:46 | <othermaciej> | is "stalled" really needed? |
| 20:46 | <othermaciej> | isn't what you really care about current expectation of playability, not network transfer rate? |
| 20:46 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: authors tend to care about metrics anyway when they are happy with non-scripted play control |
| 20:47 | <annevk> | maybe <figure> around <video> can imply ui=on ? |
| 20:47 | <othermaciej> | you could still reasonably have custom controls inside a <figure> |
| 20:47 | <annevk> | not with the current semantics of <figure> |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | can't find when begin became loadstart. weird. |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | oh well |
| 20:48 | <hsivonen> | annevk: implicit stuff like that could become confusing |
| 20:48 | <othermaciej> | I complained about it being "begin" I think |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | what should we do if 'start' or 'loopstart' or 'loopend' or 'end' are beyond the end of the clip? |
| 20:48 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: ah :-) |
| 20:49 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: they should be limited to [0, duration] |
| 20:49 | <annevk> | duration isn't necessarily known |
| 20:50 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: k |
| 20:50 | <othermaciej> | annevk: to the author, or to the UA? |
| 20:50 | <othermaciej> | in the Apple proposal we had language about what to do for not-yet-known duration and for unbounded streams |
| 20:51 | <othermaciej> | (don't remember details) |
| 20:51 | <annevk> | the UA |
| 20:51 | <annevk> | well, author too I suppose |
| 20:51 | <othermaciej> | unknown duration is NaN, and in that case you can't really put limits on timeline bounds, stream would be +Inf |
| 20:52 | <othermaciej> | (I think) |
| 20:52 | <othermaciej> | I'm not sure all the features have been carefully considered in light of streaming |
| 20:52 | <annevk> | i hope someone will scream in case of conflict :) |
| 20:53 | <othermaciej> | well, not a lot of people have been doing close review of the details |
| 20:53 | <othermaciej> | Apple folks will definitely continue to review |
| 20:53 | <othermaciej> | I think we will also be proposing some more features based on our open issues doc |
| 20:54 | <annevk> | I wonder how captioning will work |
| 20:54 | <annevk> | some kind of external file? |
| 20:54 | <othermaciej> | accessibility is one of the first things we want to address |
| 20:54 | <othermaciej> | multimedia formats can have timed text tracks |
| 20:54 | <othermaciej> | in multiple languages even |
| 20:54 | <Hixie> | yeah i need to do a careful review to handle unbounded and unknown duration |
| 20:55 | <othermaciej> | the tricky part is how to select which tracks to play |
| 20:55 | <Hixie> | still, one thing at a time :-) |
| 20:55 | <annevk> | yeah, I heard chaals ask for multilangual support |
| 20:55 | <othermaciej> | they can also have multi-language soundtracks |
| 20:56 | <hsivonen> | annevk: the WHATWG probably should avoid reinventing captioning |
| 20:56 | <Hixie> | good lord yes |
| 20:56 | <hsivonen> | annevk: it has already been specced for the Ogg family and for the MP4 family |
| 20:56 | <Hixie> | i was hoping that we'd just let the UA offer the UI for that in the context menu (egg) |
| 20:56 | <Hixie> | eg, even |
| 20:56 | <othermaciej> | what we need is support for controlling the captioning already in video |
| 20:57 | <othermaciej> | but not, IMO, a new format for captions |
| 20:57 | <hsivonen> | although Apple's implementation exhibits serious suckage if the filename ends in .mp4 instead of .3gp |
| 20:57 | <hsivonen> | (doesn't make sense) |
| 20:57 | <othermaciej> | really? what happens? |
| 20:58 | <othermaciej> | does it work for .m4v? |
| 20:58 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: things become rediculously CPU-intesive and therefore potentially slow |
| 20:58 | <hsivonen> | dunno |
| 20:58 | hsivonen | looks up markp's post |
| 20:58 | <othermaciej> | that's really weird |
| 21:00 | <hsivonen> | http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/07/27/imagination#comment-7180 |
| 21:00 | <hsivonen> | also http://diveintomark.org/archives/2006/07/23/video-howto |
| 21:02 | <othermaciej> | well, I'll point it out to our media guys |
| 21:02 | <met_> | annevk, http://glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?2007/03/28/3391-answer-to-anne-van-kesteren |
| 21:03 | <othermaciej> | I don't think generic MPEG-4 should imply codec restrictions, but maybe it does for some reason |
| 21:03 | <annevk> | met_, I saw, but wasn't entirely sure what he meant |
| 21:03 | <met_> | still not read it fully |
| 21:04 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: IIRC, the container has an artificial restriction so that you mustn't put in non-MPEG (or non-MPEG-4?) video and audio |
| 21:04 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: .3gp stretches the audio side to allow AMR |
| 21:04 | <annevk> | http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-link doesn't seem to solve the issues I pointed out, but maybe he meant something else... |
| 21:05 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: I tried to get the media folks to explain it to me - apparently, the "ISO Base File Format" has no restrictions, but MPEG-4 also includes specs of restricted versions and descriptions of how to include certain codecs |
| 21:07 | <met_> | annevk, just read is, feel littel confused too |
| 21:07 | <met_> | s/is/it/ |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | i just regenned the spec |
| 21:19 | <Hixie> | there are open issues (like when to apply 'start') |
| 21:21 | <annevk> | it doesn't deal with setting loopCount |
| 21:21 | <annevk> | is there a document btw that explains the need for looping for video? |
| 21:23 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: audio/mpeg4-generic MIME type might have worked in markp's case |
| 21:24 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: he seems to assume download followed by MIME-unaware playing from the disk |
| 21:24 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: that's what I did to confirm the issue last year |
| 21:25 | <Hixie> | we're gonna have to deal with seeking to arbitrary points |
| 21:25 | <Hixie> | i thought it did deal with setting loopcount |
| 21:25 | <Hixie> | but i'll look after lunch |
| 21:25 | <Hixie> | we're gonna have to deal with seeking to points that aren't in the media, rather (e.g. because the end is unknown) |
| 21:25 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: I don't know if there is an extension corresponding to that MIME type |
| 21:26 | <othermaciej> | I guess the real conflict is serving on web vs. supporting on ipod |
| 21:26 | <annevk> | Hixie, well, setting loopCount to 0 for instance |
| 21:28 | <annevk> | hmm, maybe I should study the algorithm more closely |
| 21:40 | <annevk> | raman makes a good point about <em> versus <i> |
| 21:42 | <annevk> | (and several other good points in related threads) |
| 21:43 | <annevk> | oh, I suppose I should have said that in #html-wg ... |
| 21:43 | annevk | schrugs |
| 21:45 | <othermaciej> | I need to figure out what people mean by "extensibility" |
| 21:46 | <othermaciej> | I'm not sure they all mean the same thing |
| 21:46 | <annevk> | <object> |
| 21:46 | <othermaciej> | I don't think that is what they mean |
| 21:46 | <othermaciej> | they want to be able to add tags |
| 21:46 | <annevk> | or as howcome recently said: <i> <object> |
| 21:47 | <annevk> | oh, right |
| 21:47 | <othermaciej> | but I'm not sure who they want to be able to add them, who should see them, and what effects adding has (styling? API? effect on conformance checkers?) |
| 21:47 | <othermaciej> | I need to understand this to know if the right answer is "use XBL" |
| 21:47 | <annevk> | mnot from Y! wants random elements (maybe namespaced) he can hang behavior to himself |
| 21:48 | <annevk> | raman from Google seems to want markup that can trigger a plugin that renders the markup |
| 21:48 | <annevk> | (prolly similar to how you can have inline SVG in HTML in IE trigger the Adobe player) |
| 21:48 | <hsivonen> | annevk: mnot? on which list? |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | his blog I think |
| 21:49 | <hsivonen> | oh |
| 21:49 | <othermaciej> | I think binary plugin APIs would be out of scope |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | and in person (otherwise / too) |
| 21:49 | hsivonen | has 1235 unread feed items |
| 21:49 | <othermaciej> | hanging behavior or styling off an element, the author can already do with CSS+JS; XBL will provide a better way |
| 21:49 | <annevk> | othermaciej, it's a processing instruction |
| 21:50 | <annevk> | but yeah, I don't think we should specify something like that |
| 21:50 | <othermaciej> | annevk: specifying the PI is pretty useless without a spec for how the plugins work, isn't it? |
| 21:51 | <annevk> | IE supports namespaces in text/html through a PI. A plugin can hook into a namespace |
| 21:51 | <annevk> | I think that's sort of how it works |
| 21:51 | <othermaciej> | sure, but what's the API for how you provide DOM elements and hook into the layout? |
| 21:52 | <othermaciej> | I'm assuming it's some ActiveX thing |
| 21:52 | <annevk> | oh, dunno |
| 21:54 | <annevk> | I'm not really convinced with the extensibility stuff. Having the community in total control of the language seems better. |
| 21:54 | othermaciej | shrugs |
| 21:55 | <othermaciej> | it sounds more like a feature request than a design principle |
| 21:55 | <othermaciej> | though HTML does have some support for extensibility, via class and defined handling for unknown elements |
| 21:56 | annevk | wonders how you'd do simplified markup yet keeping all the features |
| 21:56 | <othermaciej> | a lot of wikis do it by also letting you include HTML markup |
| 21:57 | <othermaciej> | which presumably you use in case of anything hard |
| 21:57 | <othermaciej> | but that makes it pretty hard to define parsing |
| 21:57 | <annevk> | quite |
| 21:58 | <annevk> | "architectural framework" |
| 21:59 | annevk | isn't sure how people can use that phrase lightly |
| 22:13 | <annevk> | http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-xml2007predictions.html |
| 22:23 | annevk | -> bed |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | annevk: as far as i can tell, changing loopCount is taken care of. |
| 22:37 | <othermaciej> | I'm surprised that IBM page doesn't mention HTML5 or the new HTML working group at all |
| 22:38 | <othermaciej> | oh, it's Elliotte Rusty Harold |
| 22:39 | <hasather> | othermaciej: it does mention HTML5. Also, it's from february so the new WG wasn't born |
| 22:40 | <Hixie> | it says "I don't see a big future for the WHAT Working Group's Web Forms 2.0. It's got some nice bells and whistles, but it doesn't change anything." |
| 22:40 | <hasather> | doesn't change anything? Right |
| 22:41 | <Hixie> | it has some other amusing quotes |
| 22:42 | <bewest> | actually that's a compliment, isn't it? |
| 22:42 | <bewest> | nice bells and whistles and doesn't change anything |
| 22:42 | <bewest> | isn't that the goal? |
| 22:44 | <Dashiva> | Some pavement for the cowpaths was part of the plan too, I think |
| 22:45 | <Hixie> | bewest: yeah that's why i quoted it. It exactly described what we tried to do, and said we succeeded. |
| 22:45 | <Hixie> | score! |
| 22:48 | <bewest> | yeah |
| 22:48 | <bewest> | high fives all around |
| 22:50 | <tylerr> | Hixie: Was that the "The Future is XHTML2" article? |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | hm? |
| 22:51 | <bewest> | actually, it seems this author is into technology for technology's sake |
| 22:51 | <Dashiva> | He seems to like the letter x a lot |
| 22:51 | <bewest> | yeah... for a killer app to be truly successful, you probably wouldn't know what technology it used |
| 22:52 | <bewest> | so "semantic web killer app" is kind of an oxymoron |
| 22:52 | <tylerr> | Hixie: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-futhtml2.html?ca=dgr-lnxw87XHTML2 |
| 22:52 | <tylerr> | Though it's from Jan 06. |
| 22:52 | <bewest> | tylerr: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-xml2007predictions.html |
| 22:52 | <tylerr> | Ah I didn't see that one. |
| 22:52 | <tylerr> | Lovely! |
| 22:52 | <bewest> | meh... it's kind of lame |
| 22:53 | <tylerr> | Ah well then I'll read it with a scowl on my face. ;-) |
| 22:53 | <bewest> | not very user-centric |
| 22:54 | tylerr | nods |
| 22:58 | <chin1> | so ar eyou the guys who are controlling the w3c draft for html 5.0 ? |
| 22:58 | <kingryan> | chin1: for some values of "control", yes |
| 22:59 | <bewest> | we control the whatwg draft of html5 |
| 22:59 | <bewest> | the html-wg controls the w3c draft |
| 23:02 | <chin1> | hm weird |
| 23:03 | kingryan | just realized which room he's in :D |
| 23:03 | <chin1> | why do this ? |
| 23:03 | <bewest> | we don't know |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | well, there wasn't a w3c draft when we started, and w3c wouldn't do it |
| 23:03 | <kingryan> | it's fun! |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | now they are going to do it, and so we will probably just work with them |
| 23:04 | <bewest> | or they will work with us |
| 23:04 | <bewest> | or something |
| 23:04 | <bewest> | who knows |
| 23:04 | <bewest> | or they'll continue talking about spreadsheets and forums |
| 23:04 | <chin1> | well i've got a draft for you |
| 23:04 | <chin1> | hey is there a chat for the html-wg too ? |
| 23:04 | <bewest> | yes |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | irc.w3.org port 6665 channel #html-wg |
| 23:07 | <bewest> | fwiw the w3c doesn't have a draft of anything yet |
| 23:07 | <chin1> | lol oh #htmlwg i gues chanserv is the only one who cares |
| 23:08 | <chin1> | ok who should i rant to first you guys or them ? |
| 23:09 | <othermaciej> | well, if you have a big dicussion topic, email might be the best starting point |
| 23:09 | <chin1> | you mean mailing list ? |
| 23:10 | <othermaciej> | yes |
| 23:11 | <othermaciej> | but if you give a general description of the topic you want to discuss, we could advise you even better on the appropriate forum |
| 23:11 | <othermaciej> | hello KevinMarks |
| 23:13 | <chin1> | well i see now that fx3 will support getElementsByClassName (gebcn) and if you ask me there is way to many functions that do the same thing ... getElementBy<whatever>... well a while back i was writing a simple dom parser and instantly thought why not something that could take a list of attributes to match against... well i rolled out a prototype and with some help of others it works very well now and i called it ... getElementsByAttrib |
| 23:15 | <othermaciej> | the Web API working group has a spec for something even more general than that |
| 23:15 | <othermaciej> | getElementsBySelector |
| 23:15 | <othermaciej> | which uses a CSS selector |
| 23:15 | <othermaciej> | though I think I will propose to rename it to cssQuery |
| 23:16 | <bewest> | <3 getElementsBySelector |
| 23:17 | <bewest> | dean edwards has a really nice version that optimizes it based on the browser, as well |
| 23:18 | <othermaciej> | yes, and having it native in some browsers will hopefully allow even better performance |
| 23:19 | <othermaciej> | though in that case browsers will have to make sure their selectors implementation is at least as fast as their XPath |
| 23:19 | <Hixie> | it'd better be |
| 23:20 | <chin1> | yea thats something like the jQeury approach |
| 23:20 | <chin1> | and thats a css type selector |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | since the selectors one is run much more frequently than the xpath one... |
| 23:20 | <chin1> | well mine is a js type selector that is based on properties |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | (like, every time you move the mouse) |
| 23:20 | <chin1> | actually it accepts 3 types of tests... scalar, regex, and your own supplied function... and things like {hasChildNodes: true} since hasChildNodes is a function it will execute it on your behalf and test it vs the given value |
| 23:21 | <chin1> | i can defitnetly see were a css selector is a huge powerfull beast |
| 23:21 | <chin1> | but its based on what css selectors can do ... why limit our selves ? |
| 23:23 | <chin1> | var el_array = gebi( { tagName: 'DIV', hasChildNodes: true, className: /car/i }, startNode, limit, depth ) |
| 23:23 | <othermaciej> | CSS selectors can select based on attributes |
| 23:23 | <othermaciej> | though not an arbitrary regexp or function test |
| 23:23 | <chin1> | sorry i should of used geba not gebi as short for getElementsByAttributes |
| 23:23 | <KevinMarks> | does it do ~= ? |
| 23:24 | <chin1> | yea well in csss you can do things like type="text" sure ... but what about hasChildNodes or any other element property ? |
| 23:24 | <chin1> | whats ~= ? |
| 23:24 | <chin1> | isn't ~= a perl like syntax for regex test ? |
| 23:25 | <othermaciej> | ~= in selectors is attribute token match |
| 23:25 | <othermaciej> | http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#attribute-selectors |
| 23:25 | <chin1> | oh yea its a css feature not supported yet i haven't read into them much |
| 23:25 | <chin1> | let me read up on it |
| 23:26 | <othermaciej> | there is exact, prefix and token match |
| 23:26 | <othermaciej> | for attribtues |
| 23:26 | <othermaciej> | no regexp match |
| 23:27 | <chin1> | well like you siad mine allows you to provide a custom function to do whatever test your heart desires plus will the css selector merly verify that the element has a attribute called "hasChildNodes" or will it acurately detect that its a method and execute it to test the result ? |
| 23:28 | <chin1> | so exact would be like class="example" and you search for "example" and prefix would be like "ex" correct ? |
| 23:28 | <chin1> | i dont see what a token is though |
| 23:28 | <othermaciej> | if you want to test with custom code, you can just walk the DOM, so I'm not sure native UA support would help |
| 23:28 | <chin1> | i mean {className: /^ex/i} is a prefix |
| 23:29 | <chin1> | {className: "exact"} |
| 23:29 | <chin1> | {className: function(){/* whatever you want */}} |
| 23:29 | <chin1> | UA ? |
| 23:29 | <othermaciej> | div[class|=example] will match class="example-stuff" but not class="ex" |
| 23:30 | <chin1> | {className: function( value ){ if( value.indexOf("blah") != -1 }} |
| 23:30 | <chin1> | thats a quicker hack than using regex |
| 23:30 | <othermaciej> | div[class~=something] will match class="foo something bar baz" |
| 23:30 | <othermaciej> | for class specifically though, that is just div.something |
| 23:31 | <othermaciej> | the function thing is unlikely to be quicker to execute |
| 23:31 | <othermaciej> | anyway |
| 23:31 | <othermaciej> | I don't think this is the right forum |
| 23:31 | <othermaciej> | I think if you want to make a proposal, the Web API Working Group would be the best place to make it |
| 23:31 | <chin1> | your saying that the overhead of passing a function is slower than using a regex test ? |
| 23:31 | <othermaciej> | send mail to public-webapi⊙wo |
| 23:32 | <chin1> | from what i undersatnd indexOf is faster htan regex for simple sub string matches but if the extra function inquires that much over head you might be right i haven't tried any benchmarking |
| 23:32 | <chin1> | the idea too is that if this was natively supported it would be much faster |
| 23:33 | <chin1> | so that sthe email i would find searching on the w3.org ? |
| 23:34 | <othermaciej> | yes |
| 23:35 | <chin1> | thanks |
| 23:35 | <chin1> | well wath do you guys think ? |
| 23:36 | <othermaciej> | personally I think Selectors API is a better design |
| 23:36 | <othermaciej> | feel free to google for that |
| 23:43 | <chin1> | yea i think its great too |
| 23:46 | <bewest> | what regex? |
| 23:52 | <chin1> | the css selector thing |