| 11:15 | <Dashiva> | So Apple doesn't want theora internally because of patent risk, while MS got the eolas patent case for having support externally. Joy. |
| 13:26 | <zcorpan_> | svg in 'background'?? whoh! this will be interesting to write ad-hoc testcases against |
| 13:26 | <zcorpan_> | re http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/04/html5-talk |
| 13:41 | <hsivonen> | I wonder if I should offer to talk about how the WHATWG has done stuff in the orientation part of the telecon assuming that Hixie and Anne aren't participating... |
| 13:46 | <met_> | probably spam http://blog.whatwg.org/feed-autodiscovery#comment-3484 |
| 13:47 | <hsivonen> | met_: do you still see it if you reload? I think I already removed it. |
| 13:47 | <met_> | its still there, even after hardreload |
| 13:48 | <met_> | hasather, probably second spam? |
| 13:49 | <Dashiva> | I don't see it |
| 13:49 | <Dashiva> | 3468, on the other hand |
| 13:49 | <hsivonen> | I'm going to blacklist the Rechtsanwalt |
| 13:49 | <hsivonen> | who would want an attorney who spams? |
| 13:50 | <met_> | 'Rechtsanwalt Strafrecht - Thanks for it. I searched for it and now i find it here. Thnaks' ? |
| 13:50 | <met_> | oh this 3468, wrong anchod |
| 13:51 | <Dashiva> | 2960 and 2990 are also suspicious |
| 13:51 | met_ | published czech translation of xhtml.com - Hixie interview http://www.root.cz/clanky/ian-hickson-o-nove-verzi-html/ |
| 13:57 | <hsivonen> | met_, Dashiva: bad comments removed. thanks |
| 14:00 | <zcorpan_> | was annevk's talk held yesterday? |
| 14:00 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: I think so |
| 14:01 | zcorpan_ | updated http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/HTML5_Presentations |
| 14:10 | <Lachy> | good evening |
| 14:15 | <zcorpan_> | Lachy: evening |
| 14:16 | <Dashiva> | Lachy is trying to impose his personal timezone on us against our will (also, hi) |
| 14:16 | <zcorpan_> | lol |
| 14:17 | <Lachy> | ha! |
| 14:18 | <Dashiva> | I was thinking some more about the whole bugmode thing. IE6 isn't compatible with IE7 in many cases, so to write a page now you might actually have to write three pages (IE6,IE7,rest) |
| 14:18 | <Dashiva> | And now they're saying IE8 (probably) won't be compatible with IE7. So that's four pages. |
| 14:19 | <Dashiva> | Will this lead to people deprecating older IE versions, or to not taking advantage of new ones? |
| 14:19 | <Dashiva> | people as in authors |
| 14:20 | <met_> | if you have ie6 - qurk mode, ie7,ff,opera,safari - standard mode, you can write one page 8-) for basic things |
| 14:20 | <zcorpan_> | or you write one page that works in opera, mozilla, safari, works less well in all ies, and let ie's market share contine to drop until they decide to implement html5 without versioning :) |
| 14:20 | <met_> | for me it just works |
| 14:20 | <Lachy> | unfortunately, authors will need to continue supporting IE6 for as long as it retains a significant market share, but we should still be working towards more standards compliance, not holding it back with forced bug modes |
| 14:21 | <Lachy> | met_, why would you put IE6 into quirks mode? |
| 14:21 | <Lachy> | or did I misunderstand you? |
| 14:22 | <met_> | because it leads to less problems |
| 14:22 | <Lachy> | really? |
| 14:22 | <Dashiva> | I would say pages that only worked in the latest IE would be an incentive to upgrade, but then users on olders windows don't even get the choice... |
| 14:22 | <met_> | for css posiotioning yes |
| 14:22 | <Lachy> | quirks mode is far too unpredictable |
| 14:22 | <zcorpan_> | met_: do you also want to support ie5? |
| 14:22 | <met_> | zcorpan_: e-e |
| 14:22 | <met_> | just ie6+7 |
| 14:23 | <Lachy> | unfortunately, pages that don't work in a users browser aren't an incentive to upgrade, but rather to go elsewhere |
| 14:23 | <Dashiva> | They are an incentive to downgrade, though... heh |
| 14:23 | <zcorpan_> | Lachy: i didn't mean that it should break entirely, just work less well or not be as pretty |
| 14:24 | <Lachy> | ah, degrade gracefully. sure! |
| 14:24 | <Lachy> | many personal sites of standards activists do that already |
| 14:24 | <met_> | Lachy: my technique is make page for FF.Opr etc, put ie6 in quirk mode and fix 3-4 found bugs, put ie7 in standard mode loom for bugs (there is often none) and finish, it just my technigue, someone can have differrent |
| 14:25 | <zcorpan_> | my client's pages do that already too, to some degree |
| 14:25 | <Lachy> | met_, I just don't understand what advantages IE6 quirks offers over IE6 standards |
| 14:25 | <zcorpan_> | to the degree that is acceptable by the client :) |
| 14:26 | <met_> | Lachy: for me it works better, maybe I know better bugs in ie-quirk than ie-standard, but everytime I tried ie-6 in standard mode it gives me more problems |
| 14:26 | <Lachy> | zcorpan_, I try to do that with some pages too. It doesn't always work, though |
| 14:26 | <Lachy> | ok, fair enough |
| 14:27 | <Dashiva> | How do you get IE6 into quirks, but not IE7? Sending different content? |
| 14:27 | <zcorpan_> | xml decl |
| 14:28 | <Lachy> | a comment before the DOCTYPE works too |
| 14:28 | <met_> | e.g this http://www.vscht.cz/15esfc/ |
| 14:28 | <zcorpan_> | Lachy: no, that will force ie7 into quirks |
| 14:28 | <Lachy> | really? I thought they fixed that |
| 14:28 | <zcorpan_> | nope |
| 14:28 | <Lachy> | of, crap! |
| 14:28 | <Lachy> | s/of/oh/ |
| 14:28 | <zcorpan_> | xml declaration on two lines will also trigger quirks in ie7 |
| 14:29 | <zcorpan_> | i.e. <?xml\nversion="1.0"?> |
| 14:29 | <Lachy> | damn, MS are hopeless |
| 14:29 | <met_> | Lachy: look at table on http://www.lupa.cz/clanky/navrat-modreho-e/ |
| 14:29 | <met_> | just scoll to 1st table there |
| 14:29 | zcorpan_ | sent bug reports about that during the "beta" period |
| 14:29 | <virtuelv> | zcorpan_: what about <?xml\tversion="1.0"?> |
| 14:30 | <zcorpan_> | virtuelv: haven't tested that |
| 14:30 | <Lachy> | my latest off-list reply from Chris Wilson seems to indicate that he's not willing to negotiate or compromise in any way whatsoever :-( |
| 14:30 | <met_> | xml trigger quirk for ie6 |
| 14:31 | <zcorpan_> | virtuelv: yep, tab triggers quirks too |
| 14:31 | <zcorpan_> | or wait |
| 14:32 | <met_> | <?xml anything ?> triggers is what i know |
| 14:32 | <virtuelv> | what about <?xml\t \tversion="1.0"?> |
| 14:32 | <virtuelv> | met_: in IE6, yes |
| 14:32 | <virtuelv> | we're discussing IE7 |
| 14:32 | <met_> | yes ie6 |
| 14:32 | <met_> | in ie7 it is standard mode for me |
| 14:32 | <zcorpan_> | yup, tab triggers quirks in ie7 |
| 14:34 | <zcorpan_> | seems they look for "<?xml " |
| 15:11 | zcorpan_ | observes that most canvas demos on the web are in quirks mode. |
| 15:12 | <zcorpan_> | so. ms will have to add new features to quirks mode |
| 15:12 | <Philip`> | My canvas demo is valid XHTML, since I wanted to find as many ways as possible to be incompatible with IE ;-) |
| 15:12 | <zcorpan_> | pointer? |
| 15:14 | <Philip`> | http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/83/play.xhtml |
| 15:16 | <Philip`> | (The DTD stuff is rather evil and I don't know if it's correct, but at least it makes the document valid according to the W3C validator...) |
| 15:17 | <csarven> | Philip` im impressed =) |
| 15:18 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: i thought you'd know by now that dtds are irrelevant? :) |
| 15:18 | <zcorpan_> | why not drop the doctype altogether? |
| 15:18 | <met_> | Philip`: Whow! |
| 15:19 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: very nice demo btw |
| 15:20 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: you should figure out a way to port all doom maps to canvas programatically :) |
| 15:20 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: Because the DTD gives an opportunity to add pointless complexity to the project :-) |
| 15:21 | <Philip`> | (which is the same reason why it uses SVG for the HUD graphics) |
| 15:21 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: that's all canvas 2D, right? |
| 15:21 | <zcorpan_> | svg for the hud is not pointless, it adds to the quality afaict |
| 15:21 | <Philip`> | (and why it's written in JavaScript and <canvas>, instead of something sane like C++) |
| 15:21 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: cool either way! |
| 15:22 | <Philip`> | zcorpan_: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/84/play.xhtml might look familiar (though I didn't get around to adding any textures or sprites) |
| 15:24 | <Philip`> | hsivonen: Yep, it's just 2D (mainly using drawImage quite a lot of times) |
| 15:27 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: did you port the map? write it from scratch? |
| 15:28 | <Philip`> | It's a mostly automatic conversion |
| 15:28 | <zcorpan_> | cool |
| 15:29 | <Philip`> | (I think I used some other tool to get a human-readable version of the map file, then parsed/processed/converted it) |
| 15:31 | <Philip`> | ((The conversion is a bit buggy - it's missing the lake outside the window and the square thingy in the large room beyond the first door. I think that would just need more complex conversion into the map structure that my engine understands, but I gave up / ran out of time before then)) |
| 15:32 | <zcorpan_> | i'd presume that it would perform better with canvas 3d |
| 15:35 | <Philip`> | A hardware-acclerated 2D canvas would probably perform much better than the current one - but real 3D would be even better, since I could remove all the perspective hacks (drawing lots of thin columns of decreasing sizes) and just draw real 3D walls |
| 15:35 | <Philip`> | *accelerated |
| 15:38 | <Philip`> | http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/photos.html - that uses the moz-gles11 canvas, which seems to work pretty nicely (if you've compiled the extension for it) |
| 15:40 | <Philip`> | (http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/giraffes.png - output (except it rotates and changes the picture each time it turns)) |
| 15:43 | <zcorpan_> | nice |
| 15:47 | <csarven> | Philip` got a source to moz-gles11 canvas extension? |
| 15:49 | <Philip`> | http://lxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/extensions/canvas3d/ |
| 15:50 | <Philip`> | (You can just add an extra flag when compiling the browser, then wait n hours until it's finished, and then it should work (though I think it's Windows-only right now)) |
| 15:51 | <csarven> | oh |
| 15:58 | <haustein> | hey so I could use glFontTextOut() and finally draw text in canvas? :) |
| 15:59 | <Philip`> | OpenGL doesn't do text :-) |
| 16:00 | <Philip`> | The usual methods (at least for games) seem to be rendering onto a bitmap using FreeType/GDI/etc then using that as a texture, or pre-rendering a texture with all the characters you're going to use and then drawing lots of little textured rectangles |
| 16:00 | <haustein> | ok i guess should read the stuff before copy pasting some random google result.... :) |
| 16:01 | <Philip`> | There are quite a few libraries that try to handle text in GL, but none are standard (and I think none are ubiquitous) |
| 16:02 | <haustein> | I think I'll just continue waiting for drawString in 2d.... |
| 16:05 | <Dashiva> | Make a bitmap font :) |
| 16:08 | <Philip`> | http://zaynar.demon.co.uk/misc2/font4.png - bitmap fonts are not excellent when you want to handle non-English characters, but they're not that bad if you pack them properly and if you only need a single font/size/weight, and they're pretty easy to use |
| 16:12 | <haustein> | i think the font image is about 10 times the size of my application.... and you still need the meta information and the code |
