| 00:05 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/test/css/magic-body/ -- are there any cases i'm missing for body-magicness wrt background-color in html? |
| 00:11 | <zcorpan> | oh yes, a body that is not child of root |
| 00:15 | <othermaciej> | I have an increasingly hard time understanding anything David P. Dailey says |
| 00:15 | bewest | too |
| 00:18 | <zcorpan> | "and must not paint a background for that BODY element" -- guess i have to make the HEAD visible and position it behind the BODY to test this (without using background-image that is) |
| 00:21 | <Dashiva> | The www-html noise is still going? Wow |
| 00:22 | zcorpan | has unchecked the "check for new messages every [5__] minutes" option |
| 00:45 | <Hixie> | wow, now we have people claiming XForms is an HTML language |
| 01:03 | <kingryan> | Hixie: it *does* have angle brackets, so they *must* be compatible |
| 01:03 | <kingryan> | right? |
| 01:04 | <zcorpan> | it has *more* angle brackets... and it is xml... so it must also be more semantic |
| 01:04 | <zcorpan> | and free of bugs in implementations |
| 01:05 | <Dashiva> | They're both *ML |
| 01:05 | <kingryan> | ...and easy to parse (there'll be libraries!) and it will save kittens |
| 01:05 | <zcorpan> | and all XForms on the web will be conforming |
| 01:06 | <zcorpan> | mobile-friendly! |
| 01:06 | <zcorpan> | poor mobiles can't afford to parse old HTML forms |
| 01:08 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: better yet, we have people claiming that it is ok for a spec to tell you how to process a model, but not how to choose the components that go into that model |
| 01:08 | <zcorpan> | or perhaps xforms advocates don't talk about mobiles? |
| 01:08 | Hixie | sighs as more xforms FUD is sent to the public-html list |
| 01:08 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: yes, that entire e-mail was baffling to me |
| 01:08 | <othermaciej> | I hope that claim is mistaken |
| 01:08 | <othermaciej> | otherwise XForms is worse than I thought |
| 01:09 | <Hixie> | certainly the claim that xforms is ok in text/html is completely bogus |
| 01:09 | <othermaciej> | but it works in IE in his plugin! |
| 01:09 | zcorpan | goes back to focus on creating test cases |
| 01:10 | <Hixie> | mark has been defending it for years, i don't know if he even realises how far from the standards we consider that |
| 01:12 | <othermaciej> | well, apparently he thinks standards are grab bags of ideas to use as building blocks |
| 01:12 | <Hixie> | then why be so anti-wf2? |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: so in bug 3958, support for showModalDialog was added to webkit. Should it be in the spec? |
| 01:16 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: we added it at the request of a specific vendor, they make some enterprise app which has a web interface (generally used on intranet sites) |
| 01:16 | <othermaciej> | I don't know of significant use on the public web |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | k |
| 01:16 | <othermaciej> | I don't know if Firefox has it |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | it doesn't to my knowledge |
| 01:16 | <Hixie> | i'll leave it out for now then |
| 01:16 | <zcorpan> | hmm, i will have about 8-10 tests for each of background-color, background-image, and overflow, then duplicated as XML (perhaps even duplicated again for quirks)... should i submit meta-bugs to vendors or separate bugs where they fail? |
| 01:16 | <othermaciej> | it might be worth speccing anyway, but it's messy and hard to implement |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | oh? |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | normal nested event loop problem? |
| 01:17 | <Hixie> | or worse? |
| 01:18 | <othermaciej> | I'll look up the bug in our internal bug tracker |
| 01:19 | <othermaciej> | I don't know how it would be for other engines, but in our case this is the only situation where a nested event loop is actually supposed to display web content, and it caused all sorts of quirks and bugs |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | ah interesting |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | makes sense |
| 01:20 | <othermaciej> | Mozilla apparently has a window.open argument of "modal" |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | re-ally |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | interesting |
| 01:20 | Hixie | pokes |
| 01:21 | <othermaciej> | apparently some chinese sites use it too |
| 01:21 | <othermaciej> | or at least did a while ago |
| 01:21 | <othermaciej> | this was cited as using it in 2003: http://www.dangdang.com |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | wouldn't surprise me |
| 01:21 | <othermaciej> | it is apparently in some common shopping cart JS used in china |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | interesting |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | i wouldn't have any idea how to trigger it on that site |
| 01:21 | <othermaciej> | 2) Go to the web site: http://www.dangdang.com |
| 01:21 | <othermaciej> | 3) Change the text encoding to Simplified Chinese (Mac OS) |
| 01:21 | <othermaciej> | 4) Click the button - buy |
| 01:21 | <othermaciej> | * RESULTS |
| 01:21 | <othermaciej> | Expected: the shoppingcart window will be opened in a new Safari window. |
| 01:22 | <Hixie> | everything i click opens a new tab for me |
| 01:25 | <Hixie> | i can't get modal to do anything magic in firefox |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | wow |
| 01:28 | <Hixie> | showModalDialog() is really annoying in safari :-) |
| 01:34 | <kingryan> | yeah, no resize, no address bar, no status bar |
| 01:38 | <Hixie> | can't even interact with the window below it |
| 01:38 | <othermaciej> | well, it's modal |
| 01:38 | <othermaciej> | a modal dialog |
| 01:38 | <othermaciej> | that's what modal dialogs do |
| 01:39 | <othermaciej> | ok, I guess most don't block window dragging |
| 01:39 | <othermaciej> | anyway, this was done as a checklist feature, not out of love |
| 01:40 | <Hixie> | i bet |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | wow, showModalDialog is crazy |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | context menus don't work |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | the user can't touch the parent browsing context |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | selection doesn't work |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | links open in new windows |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | i'm amazed more sites aren't abusing this |
| 01:45 | <othermaciej> | don't give them any ideas! |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | wow, mark's e-mail totally dodged the original question |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | he said something, he was asked to show a spec for it, he said something nonsensical, he was asked to clarify it, and he said something unrelated to the original question |
| 01:48 | <othermaciej> | I was really confused by his messages |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | it's a kind of fud |
| 01:48 | <othermaciej> | I couldn't tell if he was being evasive, or was just ignorant of fairly basic things |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | well, more like smokes and mirrors |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | hm, i hadn't considered that he might just be ignorant |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | i guess that's possible too |
| 01:49 | <othermaciej> | I like to give the benefit of the doubt |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | me too but i guess i figured him being ignorant was what i was giving him the benefit of not being :-) |
| 01:51 | <othermaciej> | fair enough |
| 02:09 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: acid3 test 37 expects attribute node's .specified to be false after removeAttributeNode. I can't find anything about that in dom-3-core. |
| 02:10 | <zcorpan> | wow, <html:body> actually is magic in opera again it seems: http://simon.html5.org/test/css/magic-body/background-color/001.xht |
| 02:11 | <Philip`> | Would anyone happen to be able to look in a recent version of WebKit at http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/radial/radial3.html and see if the left column is the same as http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/radial/webkit419.png ? (I'm hoping the behaviour hasn't changed in newer versions, else I'll be unhappy...) |
| 02:11 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: um yeah, that's bogus |
| 02:11 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: can you mail me a reminder? |
| 02:11 | <Hixie> | ian⊙hc |
| 02:11 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: I wish you hadn't encouraged Tina Holmboe to join the HTMLWG -- she might actually do it |
| 02:11 | <Hixie> | that was me, i think |
| 02:11 | <Hixie> | why don't we want her input? |
| 02:11 | <Hixie> | some of what she said was quite useful |
| 02:12 | <othermaciej> | you recommended it to someone else (Laura Carlson) |
| 02:12 | <bewest> | she thinks the w3 is out to get her |
| 02:12 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, sorry :-( |
| 02:12 | <othermaciej> | she seems more disruptive than helpful |
| 02:12 | <bewest> | wrt dropping mailing list subscriptions |
| 02:12 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: done |
| 02:12 | <Hixie> | thanks! |
| 02:12 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: ah |
| 02:13 | <Hixie> | well i meant to invite all of them :-) |
| 02:13 | <othermaciej> | doesn't matter much, we have all sorts of random sources of disruption as it is |
| 02:13 | <Lachy> | well, we don't want her input till after HTML5 is accepted by the HTMLWG, cause she'll object to including it |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | so i'm replying to this e-mail from sebastian |
| 02:14 | <bewest> | careful... it's statements like those that objecters object to as evidence of who knows what |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | it ends with asking whether we want to migrate xforms over time, and says: |
| 02:14 | <othermaciej> | oh good, then maybe I don't have to |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | > If the answer is yes, we have to think about an architectural strategy |
| 02:14 | <Hixie> | > of introducing new features that have made XForms successful over time |
| 02:15 | <Hixie> | > in HTML. |
| 02:15 | <othermaciej> | ah yes, if only HTML could have as much success as XForms |
| 02:15 | <Lachy> | I wonder what makes people think XForms has been successful |
| 02:16 | <Dashiva> | I think that in the long run, it's better to get them in right away, so there can't be later arguments about "They snuck WA1.0 in before I could object" later |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | i agree |
| 02:17 | <othermaciej> | I think the straw poll will carry in any case |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | also, people are more likely to stand up for you when tehy feel part of your clique |
| 02:17 | <Hixie> | why do you think i invited you all to this channel? |
| 02:17 | Hixie | ducks |
| 02:17 | <Lachy> | they've had since March 7 to join, I think 2 months is sufficient time and we can dismiss such arguments |
| 02:18 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: yeah, we better not tell them about #whatwg-seeekrit |
| 02:18 | <othermaciej> | ooops! |
| 02:18 | <Dashiva> | #whatwg-secret-tree-house-no-patents-allowed |
| 02:18 | Lachy | joins that channel |
| 02:20 | <zcorpan> | opera still differentiates between html and xhtml wrt to 'overflow' though |
| 02:21 | Dashiva | ponders typos |
| 02:22 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: Typo in HIERARCHY (HIEARCHY) in test 35, sending you a new mail |
| 02:23 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 02:24 | <Dashiva> | No wonder so many browsers were failing those two tests :) |
| 02:26 | <Hixie> | can someone think of a technology that succeeded despite being incompatible with preceeding products when it came out? |
| 02:26 | <Dashiva> | CDs? |
| 02:26 | <Philip`> | Every programming language except C++? |
| 02:27 | <Dashiva> | OS X, at least partially |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | people made tape-deck adapters with audio leads to connect cd players to tape players, and most hifi systems just took a cd player as an additional unit |
| 02:27 | <zcorpan> | otoh, gecko doesn't differentiate between html and xhtml wrt 'overflow', which is nice |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | os x shipped with classic for years |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | programming languages all have cross-language shims |
| 02:28 | <bewest> | what do you mean by incompatible |
| 02:28 | <bewest> | and what is the scope of technology? :-) |
| 02:28 | <Philip`> | HDMI with HDCP? (Not sure that counts as successful yet, though) |
| 02:28 | <Hixie> | bewest: i guess those are good questions to which i don't really have answers |
| 02:29 | <Hixie> | Philip`: screens with hdmi inputs have other inputs too (e.g. dvi or vga) |
| 02:29 | <bewest> | does the wheel count? |
| 02:29 | <Dashiva> | Nobody's mentioned XHTML2 yet |
| 02:29 | Dashiva | ducks |
| 02:29 | <Hixie> | Dashiva: i said successful :-) |
| 02:29 | <Lachy> | XForms! |
| 02:30 | <bewest> | qwerty |
| 02:30 | <Lachy> | oh, wait, do you mean *really* successful? |
| 02:30 | <zcorpan> | quirks mode |
| 02:30 | <Hixie> | bewest: how are wheels incompatible with what came before them? |
| 02:30 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i guess |
| 02:30 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i dunno, i'm just trying to work out if the argument that backwards compatible is a requirement to be successful is true |
| 02:30 | <bewest> | dunno.. it was a bad joke |
| 02:31 | <bewest> | qwerty was a more serious entry |
| 02:31 | <Philip`> | Canned food? |
| 02:31 | <Lachy> | what? |
| 02:31 | <Hixie> | or if you can sidestep that requirement if the technology is suitably groundbreaking |
| 02:31 | <bewest> | Hixie: there are some good books on this |
| 02:31 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: I would say that if backwards compatability is required, and not provided, and the users cannot provide it... |
| 02:31 | <bewest> | I just recommended one to tantek.. let me see if it's still on his wishlist |
| 02:31 | <Philip`> | (Not sure if people put up with knives before they had compatible can openers, though) |
| 02:31 | <Hixie> | bewest: i guess compatibility isn't required for ui, then, interesting |
| 02:31 | <Dashiva> | Like the hifi example, users were able to work around it, even though the tech itself was incompatible |
| 02:32 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 02:32 | <Hixie> | hmm |
| 02:32 | <Hixie> | i guess also cds took a decade to take off |
| 02:32 | <Dashiva> | Sort of like IE and other browsers :) |
| 02:33 | <Lachy> | BitTorrent, which was incompatible with previous P2P networks, maybe |
| 02:33 | <Hixie> | maybe |
| 02:33 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 02:33 | <bewest> | Hixie: http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Useful-Things-Artifacts-Zippers-Came/dp/0679740392/ref=sr_1_1/102-7106207-0155322?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177637884&sr=8-1 |
| 02:34 | <Dashiva> | You could argue the horde aspect of BT makes it a new market, not a replacement |
| 02:35 | <bewest> | Hixie: anyway, the basic idea the author proposes is that technology always evolves by fixing problems and that because of this "form does not follow function" |
| 02:35 | <Hixie> | ah |
| 02:35 | <Hixie> | interesting |
| 02:36 | <Hixie> | well thanks for the input. i've sent the e-mail now. :-) |
| 02:36 | <Hixie> | i'm gonna go get some food |
| 02:36 | <bewest> | (eg it took the zipper over 100 years to succeed) |
| 02:37 | <Lachy> | really? When was it invented? |
| 02:37 | <bewest> | it was started in the 1800's |
| 02:37 | <bewest> | didn't hit critical mass till well into 1900's |
| 02:38 | <bewest> | there were numerous problems |
| 02:38 | <bewest> | it took 3 generations of dedicated inventors passionate about the future of zippers before they succeeded as a common fastening technology |
| 02:40 | <zcorpan> | can someone check 001.htm and 001.xht in each of the folders of http://simon.html5.org/test/css/magic-body/ in webkit and say whether there is any difference between html and xhtml handling? |
| 02:44 | <Lachy> | zcorpan, for background-*: the .xht files did not have green canvases |
| 02:44 | <Lachy> | for overflow, the .xht one had scrollbars on the box |
| 02:45 | <zcorpan> | Lachy: ok, thanks |
| 02:47 | <zcorpan> | my swift filled the canvas for the .xht, but now swift doesn't seem to work anymore (until i reboot or something) |
| 02:47 | <othermaciej> | so I have a question |
| 02:47 | <othermaciej> | what does the phrase "tag soup" actually mean? |
| 02:48 | <othermaciej> | I used to think it specifically meant noncomforming markup that relies on error handling and so works anyway |
| 02:48 | <othermaciej> | but some people seem to use it in different ways, for example, referring to any non-XML markup or markup designs they don't like as "tag soup" |
| 02:52 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: test 97 returns 1 on failure (success is 7). This makes the red box turn white, which does indicate failure, but it still causes score to increase, so the test will still display 100%!!! |
| 02:52 | <Dashiva> | Intentional? |
| 02:53 | <Dashiva> | Um, test 96, not 97. |
| 02:56 | zcorpan | has written 50 test cases (or 25x2) on body magicness, and calles it a day |
| 02:56 | <zcorpan> | s/calles/calls/ |
| 07:05 | <MikeSmith> | Lachy - about your "well, we don't want her input till after HTML5 is accepted by the HTMLWG, cause she'll object to including it" ... |
| 07:05 | <Lachy> | that was a joke |
| 07:06 | <Lachy> | not serious |
| 07:06 | <MikeSmith> | yeah, I know |
| 07:07 | <MikeSmith> | but was going to say it wasn't clear from the context so might be good just to have it in the channel logs that is was |
| 07:07 | <MikeSmith> | which it is now, so 'nuff said |
| 07:07 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 07:07 | mpt | waves to those reading the channel logs |
| 07:09 | MikeSmith | hopes nobody takes seriously everything he says on IRC or even on mailing lists |
| 07:10 | <MikeSmith> | I think maybe sarcasm and irony are pointless if you explicity mark them up as such |
| 07:13 | <annevk> | dude, you were not serious about that panel at XTech? :p |
| 07:15 | <mpt> | Maybe the channel topic should contain an unclosed <sarcasm> tag |
| 07:15 | <Lachy> | yeah, that would work find till someone typed </sarcasm> in a message... |
| 07:17 | <annevk> | http://simon.html5.org/test/css/magic-body/background-color/001.xht looks nice in Opera |
| 07:17 | <annevk> | Lachy, <sarcasm> is like <plaintext> though |
| 07:18 | <annevk> | with the difference that it does support nested elements, it just doesn't support an end tag |
| 07:19 | <Lachy> | ah, ok. we should add a SARCASM value to the content model flag |
| 07:20 | <annevk> | it's not a tokenizing thingie |
| 07:20 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - the panel at XTech is an exercise in |
| 07:21 | <annevk> | we just ignore the end tag |
| 07:21 | <MikeSmith> | surrealism |
| 07:21 | <annevk> | in so far that HTML is surrealistic, sure |
| 07:21 | <annevk> | besides ignoring the end tag, we probably have to ensure that nothing else can close it either |
| 07:22 | <Lachy> | but how does it work with bad nesting? does it just keep getting reopened like unclosed inline elementts? |
| 07:22 | <annevk> | yeah, it needs some more thought |
| 07:30 | <mpt> | Make it part of the doctype |
| 07:32 | <Lachy> | or <meta name=sarcasm value=true> |
| 07:35 | <othermaciej> | explaining compatibility is frustrating |
| 07:35 | <othermaciej> | it's like trying to prove to someone that 2 + 2 = 4 |
| 07:35 | <othermaciej> | it's so obvious that it is hard to explain |
| 07:36 | <mpt> | 2 + 2 < 5 |
| 07:37 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, try using: if you have 2 apples and you buy another 2 apples, how many apples do you have? |
| 07:39 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: it depends on what kind of apples! |
| 07:39 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: what if two are granny smiths... |
| 07:39 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: and two are MacBook Pros |
| 07:39 | <othermaciej> | or what if I plant the seeds of one of the apples? |
| 07:39 | <Lachy> | Apple Macs ofcourse |
| 07:40 | <Lachy> | the question isn't how many apples can you grow |
| 07:40 | <Hixie> | wait if i bury my mac i can get more? |
| 07:41 | <Lachy> | if you have iLife, yes |
| 07:42 | <othermaciej> | I think people don't understand that the set of documents HTML5 UAs must accept is considerably larger than the set of conforming HTML5 documents |
| 07:43 | <othermaciej> | maybe this needs to be clarified more |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | wait didn't i answer that before leaving work? |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | with the whole 93% of documents are syntactically non-conforming thing? |
| 07:44 | <Lachy> | othermaciej, maybe Don't Reinvent the Wheel could talk about use cases instead. Something like, if an existing feature already solves some related problems/use cases, consider defining and/or enhancing that, instead of inventing something new |
| 07:44 | Lachy | is surprised 7% are conforming! |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | btw i recommend removing "break" from the page |
| 07:45 | <Hixie> | say it the way the second sentence does |
| 07:45 | <Hixie> | Lachy: i didn't say 7% were conformin |
| 07:45 | <Hixie> | g |
| 07:46 | <Lachy> | well, at least syntactically correct then |
| 07:47 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I'm going to take your review comments into account |
| 07:51 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: I agree the second sentence is much more clear - I liked dbaron's punchy statement of the idea, but "Support Existing Content" or something dry like that seems much more ambiguous |
| 07:51 | <annevk> | Lachy, I added an example to don't reinvent the wheel |
| 07:51 | <annevk> | Lachy, contenteditable= |
| 07:52 | <othermaciej> | I think talking about use cases is also a good idea |
| 07:54 | <annevk> | heh, nice one hsivonen |
| 07:55 | annevk | wasn't thinking in that direction |
| 07:55 | <hsivonen> | annevk: you mean reinventing the wheel? what was your direction? |
| 07:56 | <Hixie> | Lachy: well, that's just the 7% that my script didn't catch bugs on |
| 07:56 | <Hixie> | i doubt many of them are fully conforming |
| 07:56 | <annevk> | when I made the principle up it was more about new features for which UAs had already a solution which was widely used and known |
| 07:56 | <annevk> | but this explanation fits as well, I think |
| 07:57 | <annevk> | s/this/your/ |
| 07:57 | annevk | should update his slides to say 93% as opposed to 95%... |
| 07:59 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: ok, made changes per your comments |
| 08:00 | <Lachy> | it'd be interesting to do a survey of 3 billion documents using tool based on hsivonen's checker (perhapsh when it's more mature and less buggy) |
| 08:00 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: I think he means XForms in HTML rendering XForms Transitional redundant |
| 08:00 | <annevk> | btw, saying that XForms in HTML wouldn't work is wrong |
| 08:01 | <annevk> | defining some kind of parsing algorithm for specific elements could make it work |
| 08:01 | <annevk> | the syntax would be slightly different, but it could probably be made to work |
| 08:01 | <annevk> | such a design just fails to meet many of the design principles |
| 08:02 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: yeah, it seems to me, too, that XForms in text/html removes the premise of XForms Transitional |
| 08:04 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I think the most productive way forward would be making Web Forms 2.0 part of the HTML WG spec and extending the parsing algorithm to handle XForms in text/html without requiring UAs to actually implement XForms on top of the parser-produced DOM |
| 08:05 | <hsivonen> | (and dropping XForms Transitional and not doing any Task Force stuff) |
| 08:07 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: perhaps a more general namespaces-in-HTML thingie could cover that - though I'm highly ambivalent about such a thing |
| 08:08 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: namespaces-in-HTML is such a recurring theme that perhaps it needs addressing |
| 08:08 | <othermaciej> | I'm trying to come up with an example for "Media Independence" |
| 08:08 | <othermaciej> | I have a negative example: |
| 08:09 | <hsivonen> | either by speccing or documenting why the Opera attempt failed |
| 08:09 | <othermaciej> | "A hyperlink can't be actuated in a printed document, but that is no reason to omit the <a> element." |
| 08:09 | <othermaciej> | but I'd also like a positive one |
| 08:09 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: well, IE seems to have a sort of namespacing in HTML |
| 08:09 | <othermaciej> | there's also XML Data Islands |
| 08:09 | <othermaciej> | I wonder if we want to spec that |
| 08:10 | othermaciej | thinks "data island" is a hilarious mental image |
| 08:10 | <othermaciej> | anyway, what's a decision made for reason of media/platform/device independence? |
| 08:10 | <othermaciej> | ideally something new in HTML5, but doesn't have to be |
| 08:11 | <hsivonen> | the general reflowability of HTML text |
| 08:11 | <hsivonen> | do we have an aural default rendering suggestion for <aside>? |
| 08:12 | <othermaciej> | great, how about an example for "Support World Languages"? |
| 08:12 | <othermaciej> | does HTML5 still have the bdo element? |
| 08:12 | <othermaciej> | or, heck, just being based on unicode is good for that |
| 08:14 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: based on Unicode including astral planes, <i> should be kept, because it is used a lot for bicameral scripts even though italics per se may be inapplicable to some scripts. <ruby> is legitimate even though it has a strong CJK focus. |
| 08:14 | <othermaciej> | We don't have <ruby> yet so I am not sure if I should cite it |
| 08:14 | <hsivonen> | iirc, bdo was still there |
| 08:15 | <othermaciej> | I just mentioned supporting different character sets |
| 08:16 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: I don't think we should emphasize supporting different encodings. we should emphasize Unicode being the one size fits all solution |
| 08:16 | <othermaciej> | ok |
| 08:16 | <othermaciej> | does HTML5 explain the cross-site scripting security model yet? |
| 08:17 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: <ruby> is a good example to balance <i>, because only mentioning <i> makes the example look Latin-centric while <ruby> is the "look it applies to something non-Latin" example |
| 08:17 | <othermaciej> | oh, wait, cross-document messaging is a good eample |
| 08:17 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: ok |
| 08:25 | <virtuelv> | othermaciej: for what purpose are you looking for "Media independence" |
| 08:25 | <virtuelv> | and what do you mean by it? |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | we need to support <ruby> |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | we don't have suggested aural renderings yet. we also don't have suggested visual renderings. |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | (we need both) |
| 08:26 | <Hixie> | an example of something that was done for media independence would be the way drag-and-drop is defined |
| 08:26 | <Hixie> | it's defined in such a way that it actually handles most ui paradigms, including copy/paste, using the same mechanism |
| 08:27 | <Lachy_> | I thought there were suggested renderings for <ruby> in its existing spec |
| 08:28 | <othermaciej> | I added a bunch of examples to http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ProposedDesignPrinciples |
| 08:28 | <othermaciej> | feel free to suggest better or just edit them |
| 08:28 | <Lachy_> | (or maybe I just misunderstood what hixie wrote above) |
| 08:28 | <virtuelv> | Hixie: is there anything done? |
| 08:29 | <virtuelv> | (Ok, I'll stop playing devil's advocate here) |
| 08:29 | <Hixie> | Lachy_: i meant in html5 |
| 08:29 | <Hixie> | the ruby spec is inadequate for our needs, sadly |
| 08:30 | <Hixie> | and since i don't know anything about it, it's hard for me to spec it |
| 08:30 | <Hixie> | though anne sent some useful data |
| 08:30 | <Hixie> | so maybe it'll be possible to do |
| 08:30 | <Lachy_> | I assumed that :-) |
| 08:30 | <Hixie> | virtuelv: ? |
| 08:31 | <virtuelv> | Hixie: nm, I was just pointing out that not much has been achieved in terms of media independence in HTML of any version, except the underlying principles of the markup language itself |
| 08:33 | <Hixie> | virtuelv: how so? i use html regularly on three media (screen, tty, print) and i know other people who use others (e.g. aural) exclusively |
| 08:35 | <virtuelv> | Hixie: Yes, I am aware of all this, and I use screen, handheld, print regularily, I am just pointing out that media independence is inherit to HTML |
| 08:35 | <virtuelv> | s/inherit/inherent/ |
| 08:35 | <Hixie> | it doesn't have to be |
| 08:36 | <Hixie> | layout tables and <font> make it hard to use html across media |
| 08:36 | <Hixie> | bed time i think |
| 08:36 | <Hixie> | bbl |
| 08:37 | <Lachy_> | othermaciej, othermaceij, "prefer specifying that technology as opposed to inventing something new..." might be better rephrased as "consider specifying that technology in preference to inventing something new..." |
| 08:38 | <othermaciej> | Lachy_: done |
| 08:39 | <othermaciej> | (well, as soon as it posts) |
| 08:39 | <Lachy_> | cool |
| 10:01 | othermaciej | sighs at all the email from schepers |
| 12:32 | <Dashiva> | "Surely any browser manufacturer is always going to have a mode that will render older pages. What is preventing them having an HTML5 mode, which may or may not build upon their previous engine." |
| 12:32 | <Dashiva> | The modes just won't go away |
| 12:36 | <Lachy> | adding a new mode just for HTML5 doesn't help improve interop with legacy content |
| 12:40 | <virtuelv> | Lachy: quite the opposite |
| 12:40 | <Lachy> | what? |
| 12:40 | <virtuelv> | at least the MS "solution" as proposed is going to perpetuate non-interop |
| 12:41 | <Lachy> | yeah |
| 12:41 | <Lachy> | perhaps you misread what I wrote |
| 12:41 | <nickshanks> | are there any multilinguists in here? i need help with plural forms for as many languages as possible |
| 12:42 | <Dashiva> | I think his 'opposite' was 'not just no help, it actually makes it worse' |
| 12:42 | <zcorpan> | swedish, english, dutch, some german |
| 12:42 | <virtuelv> | nickshanks: for what purpose? |
| 12:42 | <MikeSmith> | nickshanks - as far as Japanese, plural forms are not normally used |
| 12:42 | <virtuelv> | Dashiva: correct assumption |
| 12:42 | <MikeSmith> | or used only very occasionally |
| 12:42 | <nickshanks> | virtuelv: for selecting correct translations |
| 12:43 | <nickshanks> | see the table at the bottom of http://doc.trolltech.com/qq/qq19-plurals.html |
| 12:43 | <MikeSmith> | and in Japanese, plurals are used only for people, as far as I know |
| 12:44 | <Dashiva> | You can use it for other things too, with some 'besjelening', not sure of the English word |
| 12:44 | <nickshanks> | i want that table in as many languages as possible |
| 12:45 | <zcorpan> | nickshanks: i don't understand the table |
| 12:45 | <nickshanks> | it's logic for selecting the correct translation when given an input number n |
| 12:46 | <nickshanks> | e.g. english has two forms, a singular for n==1, and a plural used otherwise |
| 12:46 | <nickshanks> | 0 houses, 1 house, 2 houses... |
| 12:46 | <MikeSmith> | so what is Form 3? |
| 12:46 | <Dashiva> | I can vouch for the table in English and Japanese |
| 12:46 | <Dashiva> | Some languages have more than just singular and plural |
| 12:47 | <nickshanks> | MikeSmith: english has no form three |
| 12:47 | <zcorpan> | swedish: 0 hus, 1 hus, 2 hus (but this is not generalizable) |
| 12:47 | <Dashiva> | Think 'one, both, all' |
| 12:48 | Dashiva | doesn't try to explain polish |
| 12:48 | <nickshanks> | well if anyone can provide expansions to that table, just post them here and I'll add them to my implementation |
| 12:49 | <Dashiva> | Norwegian is like English |
| 12:49 | <virtuelv> | generalizing that is going to be hard |
| 12:50 | <nickshanks> | Dashiva: nn, no, or nb ? |
| 12:50 | <zcorpan> | swedish is sometimes +ar or +or or +er or no change for plural, and sometimes a vowel changes (e.g. foot/feet -- fot/fötter) |
| 12:50 | <Dashiva> | zcorpan: He's not asking about how the plural changes, just for which numbers plural is used |
| 12:51 | <nickshanks> | zcorpan: well the translators may have to get creative, i am just implementing the switching logic. |
| 12:51 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 12:51 | <Dashiva> | nickshanks: all of them, I'd say |
| 12:52 | <nickshanks> | Dashiva: thx |
| 12:52 | <Dashiva> | Considering trolltech is norwegian, wouldn't the default code include it though? |
| 12:52 | <nickshanks> | i am trying to port the logic to Mac |
| 12:53 | <nickshanks> | the Qt page i found via google |
| 15:11 | <Voluminous> | it |
| 17:18 | <mpt> | nickshanks, we've been collecting plural forms for Launchpad Translations, unfortunately we don't have a one-page list but you can search at https://translations.launchpad.net/+languages |
| 17:20 | <nickshanks> | how does it work? |
| 17:21 | <nickshanks> | i'm typing in things and getting nothing :) |
| 19:30 | <deltab> | nickshanks: search for e.g. Polish |
| 19:30 | <nickshanks> | i looked for gaelic, dutch and français then gave up :) |
| 19:30 | <deltab> | it's case sensitive too |
| 19:31 | <deltab> | https://translations.launchpad.net/+languages/gd |
| 19:31 | <deltab> | https://translations.launchpad.net/+languages?language_search=Dutch |
| 19:38 | <nickshanks> | how odd, no-one speaks middle dutch |
| 23:11 | <Dashiva> | Hixie: More acid3. Test 96 removes the lastchild, making white-space:pre-wrap apply to #instructions. This doesn't seem to be reflected in the reference rendering |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | oh? |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | oh |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | yeah, i should make the paragraph be one long line in the source |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | duh |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | can i just say that you're amazingly helpful here. |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | fixed the bug |
| 23:12 | <Dashiva> | I'm just trying to keep up with how opera fails it :) |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | what's your full name again? |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | so i can add you to the acknowledgments |
| 23:13 | <Dashiva> | Magnus Kristiansen |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | so... anyone against making line feeds in title="" be relevant? |
| 23:59 | <Hixie> | as in, have them be real line breaks that you're supposed to honour? |
