| 10:36 | hsivonen | wonders what YesLogic uses for regression testing. hyphenation broke again in an alpha |
| 10:36 | hsivonen | downgrades |
| 15:40 | <Philip`> | Eek, I think I did something bad to html5lib... |
| 15:41 | <Philip`> | "RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded" - maybe it's just a badly written site, though |
| 15:47 | <Philip`> | Aha, no, it's not the site's fault |
| 15:49 | <Philip`> | If I try to parse the document <script></script><html><head></head><body></body></html> then it fails with that error |
| 15:49 | <Philip`> | ...at least in version 0.9 - it seems to work happily in http://hasather.net/html5/parsetree/ which I guess might be a different version |
| 15:51 | <Philip`> | Ah, it works in the SVN version |
| 22:02 | <MichaelMH> | Yo, I'm a humble webdesigner and I was reading wikipedia when I got "see also-ed" WHATWG. I'm a litte confused as to why theres a XHTML 2 and a HTML5 |
| 22:02 | <MichaelMH> | I thought XHTML replaced HTML as like a new version. |
| 22:03 | <zcorpan> | MichaelMH: http://blog.whatwg.org/faq/ might help (although it doesn't really cover in detail what you're asking about yet :( ...) |
| 22:04 | <ajnewbold> | MichaelMH: xhtml was never really meant to replace html; it's a common misconception :( |
| 22:05 | <met_> | maybe here http://xhtml.com/en/future/conversation-with-x-html-5-team/ are some basic principles described |
| 22:06 | <zcorpan> | MichaelMH: but in any case, html5 has an xml serialization as well should you want to use it |
| 22:07 | <zcorpan> | (referred to as xhtml5) |
| 22:07 | <MichaelMH> | ic.. well I don't really use any xml |
| 22:08 | <MichaelMH> | thank you for the links. |
| 22:08 | <zcorpan> | ok. then presumably the xml serialization is less interesting to you than the text/html serialization |
| 22:12 | <MichaelMH> | hmm.. I really need to learn about this stuff. Does the w3c decide what can and cant be used for web development? |
| 22:12 | <zcorpan> | MichaelMH: does the w3c endorce flash? |
| 22:13 | <zcorpan> | s/endorce/endorse/ |
| 22:13 | <MichaelMH> | ah yeah |
| 22:13 | <MichaelMH> | so, what do they do exactly? |
| 22:13 | <MichaelMH> | just provide nice buttons for your websites? |
| 22:14 | <zcorpan> | no |
| 22:14 | <zcorpan> | "w3c" is mostly a name aiui. then there are many working groups working on different things |
| 22:15 | <zcorpan> | e.g. a new html wg was chartered recently to work on the same thing that the whatwg are working on, basically |
| 22:15 | <zcorpan> | http://www.w3.org/html/wg/ |
| 22:16 | <MichaelMH> | so two seperate groups are working on the same thing? |
| 22:17 | <zcorpan> | it hasn't been decided formally yet what the htmlwg will be doing, but taking the whatwg proposals as a starting point is the only real proposal that has been put forward |
| 22:17 | <zcorpan> | though the charter is very similar to the whatwg proposals, so presumably that is the intent |
| 22:17 | <MichaelMH> | ah ic. so if the whatwg proposal is accepted will they begin working with them? |
| 22:18 | <zcorpan> | yes |
| 22:18 | <zcorpan> | hopefully it will be one and the same spec with the same editors that are part of both groups |
| 22:19 | <zcorpan> | (i and many others here are members of both groups) |
| 22:20 | <MichaelMH> | so whats this for http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/ |
| 22:21 | <zcorpan> | MichaelMH: the xhtml2 wg's home page |
| 22:23 | <MichaelMH> | yeah but why is there a xhtml2 and a (x)html5 |
| 22:25 | <zcorpan> | MichaelMH: because the people in the xhtml2 wg (the old html wg) had a different vision of the future of the web than the vision of opera, mozilla and apple |
| 22:26 | <MichaelMH> | So does that mean xhtml2 will never be implemented into a browser? |
| 22:27 | <zcorpan> | well, aiui opera, mozilla and apple are not interested in implementing xhtml2 |
| 22:27 | <zcorpan> | microsoft have bigger fish to fry |
| 22:28 | <MichaelMH> | what do you mean by that? whats microsoft up to? |
| 22:28 | <zcorpan> | microsoft are chairing the html wg, but i don't know what their plans are wrt xhtml2 (i would presume they won't implement xhtml2 anytime soon) |
| 22:29 | <zcorpan> | (or at all) |
| 22:29 | <MichaelMH> | I've never gotten anything to work with IE anyway. |
| 22:30 | <MichaelMH> | I signed upto the forums. its a bit of a ghost town. I would of thought it would be full of web developers |
| 22:31 | <zcorpan> | the forums are not so old |
| 22:31 | <zcorpan> | but feel free to ask questions there |
| 22:31 | <MichaelMH> | ah Ic. whats with the skinny author column in viewtopic |
| 22:33 | <zcorpan> | um. dunno. probably because it's not in quirks mode |
| 22:33 | <MichaelMH> | And no avatars! |
| 22:33 | <zcorpan> | you want avatars? |
| 22:34 | <MichaelMH> | yeah, it so much easier to remember somebody with an image rather than there name. |
| 22:35 | <Philip`> | It should be just the quality of the message that is important, not who wrote it ;-) |
| 22:36 | <zcorpan> | anyone here against avatars? |
| 22:36 | <MichaelMH> | yeah but if someone has written several quality messages you are more inclined to listen to their opinion |
| 22:37 | Philip` | thinks they do make it easier to follow a discussion |
| 22:37 | <zcorpan> | enabled |
| 22:38 | <Philip`> | (It's like in IRC when there's a discussion between people whose names are the same length, and you can't tell who's who without actually reading all the letters, which is irritating) |
| 22:40 | <MichaelMH> | ok.. now to find/make an avatar |
| 22:42 | <MichaelMH> | oh my god... |
| 22:43 | <MichaelMH> | I've always questioned that trailing slash |
| 22:45 | <Dashiva> | Some clients assign random colors to each nick to separate them, but it might get too intense |
| 22:46 | <MichaelMH> | X-Chat Aqua does that |
| 22:49 | <MichaelMH> | yo... this may be a stupid question but in html5 if you just wrote <div> and didn't have a </div> anywhere would it treat it as a void div.. or would it just not work |
| 22:50 | <Philip`> | It would work the same as in current HTML |
| 22:51 | <Philip`> | (The whole parsing algorithm is designed to be compatible with what browsers currently implement) |
| 22:53 | <MichaelMH> | Is it a bad thing to have an empty div? because sometimes (actually quite alot) I use divs purely for presentational purposes |
| 22:54 | <zcorpan> | an empty div for presentational purposes is mostly harmless |
| 22:55 | <MichaelMH> | mostly...? |
| 22:55 | <zcorpan> | but using html for presentational purposes in general is not what html is designed to do |
| 22:55 | <Philip`> | (...but a <div> without a matching </div> is an error and makes the document non-conforming, regardless of how it's parsed) |
| 22:56 | <MichaelMH> | so can you write it as "<div>" or does it have to be "<div></div>" |
| 22:56 | <zcorpan> | the latter |
| 22:56 | <MichaelMH> | why? |
| 22:56 | <MichaelMH> | if theres nothing in it why does it need the </div> |
| 22:57 | <zcorpan> | because otherwise everything after it will be children of the div |
| 22:58 | <zcorpan> | e.g. compare "<div>X" with "<div></div>X" |
| 22:58 | <MichaelMH> | oh ok, it just looks a little silly is all |
| 23:00 | <MichaelMH> | do you gentlemen mind if I show off my latest design to you? |
| 23:00 | <MichaelMH> | its written in xhtml tho.. with the <br />s so I hope none get offended |
| 23:01 | <Philip`> | I think the people here don't mind much about impure language usage - that's why we're not working on XHTML :-) |
| 23:02 | <MichaelMH> | its um still a work in progress |
| 23:02 | <MichaelMH> | http://www.michaelmh.com/stuff/JimKing/ |
| 23:03 | <MichaelMH> | its a bit iffy in opera with the drop down color change bit. and it basically explodes in IE. should be fine in Firefox and Safari |
| 23:04 | <MichaelMH> | i'm a newbie to javascript and php tho so the color change thing might be a bit iffy too |
| 23:06 | <MichaelMH> | who picked pink? |
| 23:08 | Philip` | looks innocent |
| 23:09 | <MichaelMH> | do you like whole one area controlled by the page scroll bar thing going on? |
| 23:10 | <MichaelMH> | purple... |
| 23:11 | Philip` | fails to break the code :-( |
| 23:11 | <MichaelMH> | what did you do? |
| 23:11 | <MichaelMH> | I was scared of someone breaking it. it validates both client side and server side |
| 23:12 | <Philip`> | Maybe it'd be nice if that area could expand to fill the screen, since it's otherwise fairly tiny in the middle of a big screen - I have no idea how to implement that, though |
| 23:12 | <Philip`> | (It also breaks really badly in Firefox 3 when scrolling, since everything jumps around until it's redrawn the whole screen, but maybe they'll fix that eventually) |
| 23:14 | <Philip`> | Otherwise I think it looks good, particularly with the faint shadows :-) |
| 23:17 | <MichaelMH> | :D thanks. I'm really chuffed with the code too. I literally just started learning javascript two days ago (and consequently php since I need to validate the info client side and write it to a file.) and i coded the bit which checks the brightness of the colour. I nicked the thing that checks whether or not the value is hex tho, I couldnt fiqure out how to do that |
| 23:22 | <MichaelMH> | well gtg. I'll come back on tommoro with new questions once I've read all this stuff. |
| 23:22 | <MichaelMH> | nice shade of blue ;) |