| 01:11 | <Philip`> | http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html - now hopefully updated to match the spec again (though not checked very carefully so there may be bugs), plus WebKit data |
| 01:12 | <Philip`> | (which was quite painful to collect - I need a much better way of gathering results when the browser doesn't provide getImageData to do it automatically...) |
| 01:14 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: wow, nice work |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | Philip`: that's why you want tests that you can determine the pass/fail result for in 200ms or less |
| 01:15 | <Hixie> | Philip`: that way collecting results is just a matter of having a page load every test in a row, with you hitting "y" or "n" for each one |
| 01:16 | <Philip`> | Hixie: Determining the results is easy - the problem is I've currently just got little checkboxes for each one, and clicking all those is annoying when a computer should be able to do the job much faster :-) |
| 01:17 | <Philip`> | although actually the biggest problem was that after the first 180 or so, Safari stopped responding to any interaction with the form, so I had to select the rest of the checkboxes via javascript: in the address bar |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | heh |
| 01:19 | Hixie | thinks it takes more than 200ms to determine if those tests have passed or not, though |
| 01:19 | <Hixie> | e.g. http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/initial.reset.security.html |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | it has loads of text |
| 01:20 | <Philip`> | Oh, those ones are easy because it does it automatically and colours the background |
| 01:20 | <Philip`> | so the text can just be ignored |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | yeah but you have to know that |
| 01:20 | <Hixie> | QA people go through tens of thousands of tests, they can't know them all :-) |
| 01:21 | <Philip`> | For the ones where the outcome can be determined automatically, the QA people shouldn't even see them since it's not a good use of their time |
| 01:21 | <Philip`> | ...but that means I need a better way of reporting the results and asking for human confirmation when necessary |
| 01:41 | zcorpan_ | would love to have elastomania implemented in <canvas> |
| 01:44 | <Philip`> | http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/minimal.initial.reset.security.html - is that version bare enough now? :-) |
| 01:44 | <Hixie> | still has three links :-) |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | see http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | though ignore the filename crap |
| 01:46 | <Philip`> | (http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/minimal.toDataURL.complexcolours.html when it can't determine the result by itself) |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | those are a bit complex |
| 01:46 | <Hixie> | the general colour scheme that test cases use is described somewhere, too, hold on |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | oh it's in that same file http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/guidelines.html#color |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | you never want to use a green colour when it's not a pass |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | never red when it's not a fail |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | (red trumps green if both are there) |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | you want blue when the tester has to look closer |
| 01:47 | <Hixie> | navy, specifically |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | also, the colours should geenerally be #008000 #ff0000 #00ff00 and #000080 |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | many qa people in browser dev are basically hardwired to act to those colours now |
| 01:48 | <Philip`> | It's sometimes hard to be specific about colours when the test is intentionally trying to test multiple colours, though |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | even something slightly outside that range causes them untold amount of time confused :-) |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | there are tests where that doesn't apply |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | but they're rare |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | see e.g. http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/canvas/ |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | anyway gotta go |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | ttyl |
| 02:19 | <Philip`> | http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/minimal.toDataURL.complexcolours.html - now bluer than ever before |
| 02:20 | <Philip`> | Still not entirely trivial; but when using a sensible browsers there's only 5 out of 201 cases where you should even have to look at it |
| 02:20 | <Philip`> | s/browsers/browser/ |
| 03:34 | <a-ja> | Hixie, et al: question about 3.8.11.3. Distinguishing site-wide headers from page headers....when referencing one/only/single subsection...should that read/mean *child* subsection instead? |
| 03:36 | <a-ja> | i.e. one/only/single child subsection rather than just one/only/single subsection |
| 12:58 | <annevk> | Does http://waffle.wootest.net/2007/05/16/ruby-the-same-token/ imply we now have a tokenizer in C? |
| 13:04 | <Philip`> | That seems to be only talking about Objective-C, which isn't the same |
| 13:07 | <annevk> | Oh, ok |
| 13:14 | annevk | updates HTML5 presentations |
| 13:16 | <krijnh> | annevk: you're going to talk about HTML5 at Info.nl right? |
| 13:16 | <annevk> | heh, how do you know? :) |
| 13:17 | <krijnh> | annevk: I told them to ;p |
| 13:17 | <krijnh> | Well, no, I used your presentation markup to present my CMS |
| 13:18 | <krijnh> | And told Tom about your presentation |
| 13:18 | <annevk> | ah ok |
| 13:18 | <annevk> | :) |
| 13:18 | <krijnh> | He was very interested |
| 13:18 | <krijnh> | Also, you charge too little ;) |
| 13:19 | <annevk> | Oh, I don't care about money |
| 13:19 | <krijnh> | Hehe |
| 13:19 | <krijnh> | Just kidding |
| 13:19 | <annevk> | I figured as much though :) |
| 13:20 | <krijnh> | June 1 around 13h right? |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | (Although I guess the reason I don't care about it is that I have enough.) |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | Yeah |
| 13:20 | <krijnh> | I'll try to be there then as well |
| 13:20 | <annevk> | Oh, you work for them now? |
| 13:20 | <krijnh> | Freelance, yes |
| 13:21 | <krijnh> | 3 days a week or something |
| 13:21 | <annevk> | So we get to meet after all :p |
| 13:21 | <krijnh> | Yay! |
| 13:21 | <krijnh> | ;] |
| 13:21 | <krijnh> | That was my only reason for bringing it up, hehe |
| 13:22 | <krijnh> | Nah |
| 13:37 | <annevk> | Oh I see, it's a superset of C |
| 13:38 | <annevk> | it looks quite different though... |
| 13:45 | jdandrea | observes he can't generate conforming HTML 5 using XSLT 1.0. The meta content-type is automagically generated when the head element is encountered while using the html output method! |
| 13:45 | <jdandrea> | Workaround: Use XSLT 2.0 (not yet a recommendation) and set include-content-type to no, or hardcode the head element/attributes (also bleah). Ahh well ... |
| 13:45 | <jdandrea> | Other ideas? |
| 13:46 | <krijnh> | And the meta content-type isn't allowed? |
| 13:46 | <Philip`> | XSLT5? |
| 13:46 | <jdandrea> | XSLT5! Now there's an idea. |
| 13:46 | <jdandrea> | Should use something akin to <meta charset="UTF-8"> |
| 13:46 | <jdandrea> | But XSLT 1.0 will output <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> |
| 13:47 | <jdandrea> | XSLT 2.0 lets you suppress that. |
| 13:47 | <krijnh> | That's non conforming? |
| 13:47 | <annevk> | There has to be an option to suppress that |
| 13:47 | <jdandrea> | I believe so. (I could be wrong?) |
| 13:47 | <annevk> | Yeah, it's non-conforming |
| 13:47 | <jdandrea> | annevk: There is, in XSLT 2.0. |
| 13:47 | <annevk> | Hah, XSLT 2... |
| 13:47 | <jdandrea> | hehe |
| 13:48 | <jdandrea> | Noting it here: http://code.google.com/p/gsa-xhtml-stylesheet/issues/detail?id=30&can=2&q=#c3 |
| 13:48 | annevk | hopes browsers won't have to implement that |
| 13:48 | <jdandrea> | I always thought that was messy (in XSLT 1.0). Now I know why! |
| 13:48 | <annevk> | Maybe you should output "XML compatible" HTML5 |
| 13:49 | annevk | wonders how <!DOCTYPE html> is inserted |
| 13:49 | <jdandrea> | Meaning output-method set to xml? Can do. |
| 13:49 | <jdandrea> | In XSLT 2.0, yes, good question. In 1.0, you can't have multiple outputs, so I have a template that handles it (hardcoded, again - alas). |
| 13:49 | <jdandrea> | Ref: http://code.google.com/p/gsa-xhtml-stylesheet/ |
| 13:50 | <jdandrea> | The new version is atoning somewhat (HTML 4.01 Strict, (X)HTML 5, etc.) ;) |
| 13:50 | <annevk> | Maybe Python is more suitable than all this XML fancyness :) |
| 13:50 | <jdandrea> | Maybe. |
| 13:51 | <jdandrea> | This project is intended as a drop-in replacement for the default XSLT on the Google Search Appliance. |
| 13:51 | <jdandrea> | Otherwise, yes, python has some good possibilities here. |
| 13:52 | <jdandrea> | Two more errors to squash and I've got (X)HTML 5 conformance. Yay. |
| 13:52 | jdandrea | notes that's before considering new HTML 5 elements. |
| 13:53 | annevk | goes t fetch some food and have lunch |
| 13:53 | jdandrea | gets ready to head out for the day, waves |
| 13:55 | <jdandrea> | annevk: Ahh, XML compatible HTML5 - of course! I just groked that. That would probably work nicely. |
| 14:25 | <Philip`> | (http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html - added data for old Firefoxes - it's slowly getting better) |
| 15:29 | zcorpan_ | wonders why old firefoxes would be interesting |
| 15:34 | <Philip`> | It's useful if you're trying to write content that's compatible with the old browsers people still use, and want to know which features and bugs they have |
| 15:36 | <zcorpan_> | ah |
| 15:36 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 15:36 | <zcorpan_> | i thought it was more aimed at implementors |
| 15:37 | <Philip`> | It probably is, but if it's easy to get the results then one might as well aim partly at other groups too :-) |
| 16:53 | <annevk> | http://me.mywebsight.ws/2007/05/15/xhtml-2-and-html-5-who-will-win/ is funny |
| 16:56 | <Dashiva> | "If (X)HTML 5 is about not being too hard for authors who are too lazy to use XHTML 2, then the English language is about not being too hard for authors who are too lazy to use Esperanto." |
| 18:56 | <annevk> | Is the Ruby html5lib simply converted Python code? |
| 18:56 | <annevk> | It very much looks that way... |
| 18:59 | <Philip`> | Yes, hence problems like http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=39 where the straightforward Python->Ruby translation doesn't quite work |
| 19:02 | <annevk> | Who's twoggle? |
| 19:04 | <Philip`> | Tim Fletcher, it seems |
| 19:06 | <Philip`> | (as in http://text.rubyforge.org/files/lib/text/figlet_rb.html and suchlike) |
| 19:09 | <annevk> | Ah, http://intertwingly.net/blog/2007/05/19/Ruby-HTML5-Parser-Tests-Pass says that too |
| 22:13 | <Hixie> | http://forum.mootools.net/viewtopic.php?pid=15695#15695 |
| 22:15 | <jruderman> | "are we really in 2nd Browser-War? is it really between XHTML 2.0 and HTML 5?" |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | it gets better |
| 22:17 | <Hixie> | he talks about reading the minutes... of a 2004 meeting |