| 00:01 | <Lachy> | I've just been asked to write an article for A List Apart, but I'm not sure what to write about |
| 00:01 | <zcorpan> | can you write about anything you want? |
| 00:01 | <Lachy> | yeah |
| 00:03 | <Dashiva> | Did they indicate what kind of article they wanted? |
| 00:03 | <zcorpan> | write about the google gears <-> html5 conspiracy |
| 00:03 | <Lachy> | lol |
| 00:03 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 00:04 | <zcorpan> | :) |
| 00:04 | <Lachy> | what's the conspiracy? |
| 00:04 | <zcorpan> | dunno |
| 00:04 | <zcorpan> | your call |
| 00:04 | <Dashiva> | It's not in html4, so it must be evil and proprietary |
| 00:05 | <zcorpan> | if there's an ala article about it, then it has to be some conspiracy ;) |
| 00:05 | <Lachy> | I'll have to learn something about google gears then |
| 00:06 | <Dashiva> | Maybe you could work in the privacy scare about google street view |
| 00:07 | <Lachy> | :-D |
| 00:07 | <Lachy> | oh, and apparently I have to organise a 3 minute presentation for Web Jam this thursday |
| 00:07 | <Lachy> | I'm considering presenting the video element |
| 00:07 | <jruderman> | streets aren't private!? i better put some clothes on next time i walk to work. |
| 00:08 | <Lachy> | jruderman: just keep an eye out for an unmarked vehicle with cameras on the roof. Otherwise, you can continue walking to work naked |
| 00:09 | <Dashiva> | And make your cats knows how to draw the curtians |
| 00:09 | <zcorpan> | Lachy: did you see håkons presentation on the <video> element? |
| 00:09 | <Lachy> | no |
| 00:09 | <zcorpan> | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5545573096553082541&q=the+video+element |
| 00:09 | <Lachy> | oh, yeah, I think I did |
| 00:10 | <Lachy> | where can I find a build of Opera with support for <video>? |
| 00:11 | <Dashiva> | labs.opera.com I think |
| 00:13 | <Lachy> | thanks |
| 00:13 | <zcorpan> | entries in labs.opera.com don't have URIs? |
| 00:15 | <Lachy> | ok, now I need to find an example video (or make one). Any suggestions? Maybe I could take one from wikipedia |
| 00:16 | <zcorpan> | http://people.opera.com/howcome/2007/video/three.html |
| 00:16 | <Lachy> | thanks |
| 00:16 | zcorpan | notes that that page contains a <DOCTYPE> tag |
| 00:17 | <Lachy> | lol |
| 00:38 | <Lachy> | nice! http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2007/05/support-for-html-video-element-in.html |
| 00:48 | zcorpan | wonders why most links that are posted in here are purple |
| 00:58 | <Lachy> | does anyone know if there is any documentation available for which <video> features Opera supports in that build? |
| 00:58 | <Hixie> | .play(), .stop(), and .pause(), i think |
| 00:58 | <zcorpan> | see their proposal sent to the list |
| 00:59 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 00:59 | <Lachy> | I'm considering making a video of myself lip syncing to some song for the presentaiton. Any suggestions for a song? |
| 01:01 | <zcorpan> | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6739710473912337648&q=lip+syncing |
| 01:02 | <Lachy> | I had one suggestion for a paris hilton song ;-) |
| 01:06 | <zcorpan> | which one? |
| 01:19 | <Lachy> | he wasn't specific about which one |
| 01:35 | <Lachy> | hmm, it's not working with the video I created. I converted a .mov to .ogg using ffmpeg2theora and it won't play in Opera |
| 01:36 | <zcorpan> | have you tried any other ogg file? |
| 01:36 | <Lachy> | yes, the ogg I downloaded from those Opera demos works fine |
| 01:37 | <zcorpan> | then i don't know |
| 01:45 | <Hixie> | hmmm |
| 01:46 | Hixie | considers the "Attribute for holding private data for scripting" thread |
| 01:47 | <othermaciej> | role! |
| 01:48 | <othermaciej> | (j/k) |
| 01:48 | <Hixie> | actually i was thinking of dumping this into my "role" folder for later consideration, but it seems this actually has some use cases |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | though the thread itself is free of any such information |
| 01:49 | <Lachy> | what are the use cases? |
| 01:49 | <Hixie> | that's my question too |
| 01:49 | <othermaciej> | I can give you some examples |
| 01:50 | <othermaciej> | dojo widgets in markup |
| 01:50 | <othermaciej> | they want to add key/value pairs to the markup for use by script code later |
| 01:50 | <othermaciej> | class only lets you give flat values, not key-value pairs |
| 01:50 | <Hixie> | do you have a sample uri showing this? |
| 01:50 | <othermaciej> | right now they just use nonstandard attributes |
| 01:50 | <othermaciej> | let me find you some example |
| 01:50 | <othermaciej> | s |
| 01:51 | Hixie | was also told today that dojo was supporting role="", but has yet to see an example of that either |
| 01:51 | <othermaciej> | I have no idea what that would even mean |
| 01:52 | <othermaciej> | http://dojotoolkit.org/demos/email |
| 01:52 | <othermaciej> | look at the subframe source |
| 01:52 | <othermaciej> | a brief sample from the source: |
| 01:52 | <othermaciej> | <div id="treePane" dojoType="TreeV3" toggle="wipe" toggleDuration="500" listeners="treePaneController;treePaneIcons;treePaneSelector" sizeMin="20" sizeShare="15"> |
| 01:52 | <othermaciej> | <div dojoType="TreeNodeV3" title="Mail Account" nodeDocType="FolderMailbox"> |
| 01:52 | <othermaciej> | <div dojoType="TreeNodeV3" title="Inbox" nodeDocType="FolderInbox"></div> |
| 01:53 | <othermaciej> | besides dojo, one assumes XBL widgets will want to be able to support some extended attribute-like key-value mechanism in the markup, without forcing the document to be nonconforming |
| 01:53 | <Hixie> | wow, that page is an accessibility disaster |
| 01:54 | Hixie | looks |
| 01:54 | <othermaciej> | that's probably why they'd like to do some role-type thing |
| 01:54 | <Hixie> | there's a hell of a lot they could do before getting there |
| 01:55 | <Hixie> | like using actual list elements for their lists |
| 01:55 | <Lachy> | I am having no luck at all. If I encode the video using ffmepg2theora, the video won't play in Opera. If I encode it using VLC, it will play but there's no sound :-( |
| 01:55 | <othermaciej> | it's kind of div soup |
| 01:56 | <Hixie> | just disable styles to see what i mean |
| 01:56 | <Hixie> | there's no reason a page should depend on css that much |
| 01:56 | <Hixie> | to be usable |
| 01:56 | <othermaciej> | at least they use real checkboxes and buttons |
| 01:57 | <othermaciej> | anyway, point being, this is an example of a possible use case - I can't vouch for quality of their toolkit or even validity of this example |
| 01:57 | <othermaciej> | but it seems reasonable to me that for late-bound script or for XBL2 you will want something that acts like extra attributes |
| 01:57 | <othermaciej> | and it would be nice if you could do that without making your document nonconforming |
| 01:58 | <Hixie> | yeah, i agree that there are use cases |
| 01:58 | <Hixie> | i'm studying them to see if i can find good examples and work out what the spec should say |
| 02:02 | <Hixie> | man, that demo page is a testament to irrelevant="" |
| 02:04 | <Hixie> | i'm not really seeing any good examples of custom attributes here though |
| 02:04 | <Hixie> | most of them are presentational |
| 02:04 | <Hixie> | the rest could be folded into class="" |
| 02:05 | <Hixie> | these pages are why i want to ban <div> |
| 02:05 | <Hixie> | god |
| 02:12 | <webben_> | Hixie: I think the place to look for functioning role examples would be the Mozilla access pages. |
| 02:13 | <webben_> | especially http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Accessible_DHTML#Sample_widgets |
| 02:13 | <webben_> | (if you want to UA support, best get yourself the accessibility toolbar from ICITA and Fire Vox) |
| 02:14 | <webben_> | although possibly things are already working with Window-Eyes and NVDA |
| 02:14 | <webben_> | not sure |
| 02:14 | <zcorpan> | http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=63 - man, like 10 proposals in one post |
| 02:16 | <webben_> | okay actually that page includes a checklist of what Window-Eyes JAWS and Zoomtext support already |
| 02:19 | <webben_> | http://reefchat.overscore.com/ is probably the most fully developed current example |
| 02:22 | <webben_> | information about using role in dojo is at: http://www.dojotoolkit.org/book/dojo-book-0-4/part-8-internationalization-and-accessiblity/accessibility/creating-accessible-wi |
| 02:25 | <zcorpan> | wonder if it's possible to split a post in phpbb |
| 03:21 | <Lachy> | woo hoo! I finally got a video of me to work in Opera :-) |
| 06:25 | <Hixie> | woot, Folder/Directory "input-for-whatwg-dom" deleted. |
| 06:25 | <Hixie> | any requests for what I should work on next? |
| 06:46 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: from my selfish point of view, it would be nice if you looked at the corner cases of character decoding and encoding sniffing |
| 06:47 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: also, it would be really nice to have the spec deviations of html5lib that anne was talking about addressed in the spec |
| 06:49 | <Hixie> | so parsing, then |
| 06:49 | <Hixie> | ok, i can do the parser next |
| 06:49 | <weinig> | Hixie: have you investigated the behavior of passing dom functions and attribute ecmascript/js null and ecmascript/js undefined? |
| 06:49 | <Hixie> | there's only 400 outstanding comments related to the parser |
| 06:50 | <Hixie> | weinig: i'm kinda waiting to see what comes of heycam's DOM/JS spec |
| 06:50 | <Hixie> | weinig: i'm hoping i don't have to define any of this stuff |
| 06:50 | weinig | nods |
| 06:50 | <weinig> | thanks |
| 06:51 | <Hixie> | all the e-mails i've received on the topic (to whatwg) are all waiting in input-for-whatwg-dom-js-integration |
| 06:52 | <weinig> | Hixie: nice |
| 06:53 | <Hixie> | so if heycam doesn't define it, i still have the list |
| 06:53 | <Hixie> | but i hope i don't have to do it |
| 06:53 | <Hixie> | :-) |
| 06:56 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: thanks Re: "< Hixie> ok, i can do the parser next" |
| 07:54 | hsivonen | really should have IE7 available for testing... :-( |
| 09:08 | <annevk> | woohoo |
| 09:08 | <annevk> | parsing :) |
| 09:15 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - get a macbook and run parallels with Linux and XP guest OSes:) |
| 09:23 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: my PowerMac is too new and fast to justify the expense of a new Mac. |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | hsivonen, hey, you're making our parser lib harder to implement! |
| 10:02 | annevk | wonders if DOCTYPE sniffing is like charset sniffing or if it's actually part of tokenization |
| 10:03 | <hsivonen> | annevk: it can be part of the tokenization unless you are IE.next |
| 11:08 | <annevk> | http://open.info.nl/archief/2007/06/05/html-5-liever-vandaag-dan-morgen/ |
| 11:09 | <hsivonen> | Google Translator does not support Dutch :-( |
| 11:09 | <ddfreyne> | the annevk translator does :> |
| 11:10 | hsivonen | will try to read in German/English/Swedish quirks mode |
| 11:10 | <ddfreyne> | funny how the first "new" thing in html5 they mention is the doctype… as if that's what html5 is about |
| 11:12 | <ddfreyne> | ignore that |
| 11:12 | <Philip`> | Babel Fish makes a valiant effort at translating Dutch |
| 11:12 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: thanks |
| 11:22 | <MikeSmith> | cool to see that he mentions the conformance checker |
| 11:22 | <MikeSmith> | is "ook" a real word in Dutch? |
| 11:22 | <MikeSmith> | I thought that was just a caveman word |
| 11:22 | <ddfreyne> | heh, it's dutch for "also" |
| 11:23 | <MikeSmith> | ddfreyne - cool, I think I'll start using that in english too -- I like it a lot better than "also" |
| 11:25 | <annevk> | It's also "too" |
| 11:29 | <annevk> | hsivonen, yeah, they asked about it |
| 11:29 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - whose site is that (open.info.nl) ... I see lots of stuff in the webstandaarden category |
| 11:29 | <annevk> | Probably something to mention by default |
| 11:29 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, Dutch web company |
| 11:30 | <MikeSmith> | k |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | What actually happens for <script></script><base>? |
| 11:39 | <annevk> | does the script get refetched? |
| 11:40 | <annevk> | or <script> document.write(<base>) </script> :) |
| 12:21 | <hsivonen> | annevk: they == IE.next team? |
| 13:03 | <annevk> | hsivonen, oops, meant to say that to Mike |
| 13:47 | <mpt_> | hsivonen, you have wonderful nouns |
| 13:49 | <mpt_> | "walled-gardenism", "academic time sink", "charmod correctness fig leaf" |
| 14:04 | <hsivonen> | mpt_: :-) |
| 15:43 | annevk | likes "blackbox reverse engineering" |
| 16:11 | <zcorpan> | annevk: ie7 handles <base> the same in standards mode and quirks mode |
| 16:12 | <annevk> | I know |
| 16:12 | <annevk> | but how are the specific cases I mentioned above handled? |
| 16:13 | <zcorpan> | oh, this was re your mail to jonas |
| 16:14 | <annevk> | oh i know |
| 16:14 | <annevk> | oh, already said that :) |
| 16:16 | <zcorpan> | ah, so you meant that it would change to option 2, not option 3 |
| 16:25 | annevk | is confused |
| 16:27 | <zcorpan> | you said "I suppose 1 would be the option I pick although I wonder how long it takes before that starts breaking stuff too if people code towards the new IE7." |
| 16:28 | <zcorpan> | so, if stuff starts to break, i.e. if there are more pages that rely on ie7's behavior instead of ie6's, then it would switch to option 2 instead of option 1 |
| 16:29 | <zcorpan> | i initially thought you meant that it would switch to option 3 |
| 16:34 | <annevk> | ah |
| 16:35 | <annevk> | besides the potential reparsing of stuff in <head> (do browsers actually do that?!) |
| 16:35 | <zcorpan> | dunno |
| 16:35 | <annevk> | there's also the issue of what to do with href= when it contains something like "www.example.org" |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | treat it as a directory name (Opera), domain name (IE7), or error (Firefox) |
| 16:36 | <zcorpan> | ie7 treats it as a domain name?? |
| 16:36 | <zcorpan> | wow |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | (Firefox requires actual URIs iirc) |
| 16:36 | <annevk> | "complete URIs" |
| 16:37 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 16:37 | <zcorpan> | html4 doesn't allow relative uris |
| 16:37 | <annevk> | if only it defined error handling |
| 17:41 | <annevk> | ah, Boris tells me what the answer is |
| 21:28 | <zcorpan> | http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=8083&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0#53117 |
| 22:09 | <gsnedders> | apparently <p></p> isn't an empty element… |
| 22:09 | <gsnedders> | *is |
| 22:10 | <zcorpan> | gsnedders: why wouldn't it be? |
| 22:11 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: SGML and XML both define <p/> (I know that's invalid) as empty element syntax |
| 22:12 | <gsnedders> | people are arguing that you can close tags with the self closing syntax in HTML, 'cos the validator says so. |
| 22:21 | <zcorpan> | what it means in sgml depends on the sgml declaration |
| 22:22 | <zcorpan> | with the sgml decl for html4 it is valid and equivalent to <p>>, where the next / closes the P |
| 22:22 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: that's my point |
| 22:22 | <gsnedders> | zcorpan: I'm being told it's valid, and equiv to <p></p> |
| 22:25 | <zcorpan> | ok |
| 22:25 | <gsnedders> | which is plainly untrue. |
| 22:28 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: <p/> in SGML includes the > in the text content, the validator even says so |
| 22:29 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: I know |
| 22:32 | <gsnedders> | othermaciej: wait… how do you get the content to be shown under the new version of the validator? |
| 22:32 | <othermaciej> | gsnedders: don't know, I only remember seeing it on the old one |
| 22:35 | <gsnedders> | ironically this actually came out of me complaining about people not knowing anything, yet claiming to always be right |
| 22:35 | <gsnedders> | I can cite as many specs as I want, but it all gets lost. |