| 08:34 | <hsivonen> | annevk: re: "* annevk wonders why XML does not normalize character references" As I understand it, the consequences of CR-as-NCR were not considered by the WG that defined XML but the resulting spec language was retained for compat with shipped parsers |
| 08:34 | <hsivonen> | annevk: at this point, it seems easiest to copy the exact quirk to HTML |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | hmm |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | it's ugly |
| 10:17 | <annevk> | then again, it's not that big of a deal |
| 10:56 | <zcorpan_> | CRs can end up in the DOM anyway with createTextNode, no? |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | So what I often do is using \r\n or sometimes incorrectly \n\r in JavaScript and put the result in some <pre> element |
| 10:58 | <annevk> | there's online a single linebreak in Firefox and IE and two in Opera if you have the \n\r sequence... |
| 10:59 | <annevk> | So I guess the CSS spec should say something about CR and LF one way or another if they indeed both end up in the DOM |
| 11:00 | <annevk> | Guess I'll have to test that at some point... |
| 11:30 | <annevk> | http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges we're getting spammed :( |
| 11:36 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - maybe time to consider locking down the wiki - make an additional step where new users have to ask an existing user to add them to the authorized users group before they can edit |
| 11:37 | <MikeSmith> | most wikis seem to have gone that route because of scripted spamming problems |
| 11:39 | <zcorpan_> | or perhaps try the same thing we did to the forum |
| 11:41 | <zcorpan_> | namely, change the captca input to name="email" and the email input to something else (NCR-encoded too iirc) |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | what did we do on the forum? |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | that worked well? |
| 11:41 | <zcorpan_> | yeah |
| 11:45 | <annevk> | I don't think I can do that though |
| 12:02 | <MikeSmith> | annevk (or anybody) - can you remind me what the rationale was for making the acronym element non-conformant? |
| 12:03 | <zcorpan_> | authors are confused as to whether they should use abbr or acronym |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | making the language simpler |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | I suppose <acronym> will be defined to be equivalent to <abbr> for UA purposes |
| 12:06 | <annevk> | If we're going into that level of detail anyway... |
| 12:06 | <zcorpan_> | though i like opera's default styling of acronym... :) |
| 12:07 | <zcorpan_> | (small-caps) |
| 12:13 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan_, annevk - author confusion and make-the-language-simpler issues seems like a very subjective rationale for dropping it. And I would think that'd need to be weighed against fallout from the objective problem of authors taking existing instances they have that (X)HTML4 validators say are valid, then running them through an HTML5 conformance check and being confronted with conformance errors reported for all acronym instances. |
| 12:14 | <zcorpan_> | don't disagree |
| 12:16 | <annevk> | MikeSmith, changing an element name is quite simple |
| 12:17 | <zcorpan_> | but there's no benefit |
| 12:17 | <zcorpan_> | it's like changing <i> to <em> or vice versa |
| 12:17 | <annevk> | those are defined differently at the moment |
| 12:18 | <annevk> | limiting choice makes some sense in my mind and I don't think it's entirely subjective |
| 12:22 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - I agree that limiting choice makes a lot of sense, but I don't want to have to explain to N different authors why an HTML5 conformance checker is telling them that their HTML4-valid documents containing acronym instances are now considered non-conformant |
| 12:22 | <MikeSmith> | where N = many thousands |
| 12:24 | <zcorpan_> | that's the easy one compared to <img><p> ;) |
| 12:24 | <MikeSmith> | zcorpan_ - yeah |
| 12:31 | <annevk> | just tell them it's a bug in HTML4 |
| 12:31 | <annevk> | that the W3C fixed |
| 12:32 | <annevk> | I guess I should draft up a W3C Note with differences from HTML4 |
| 12:32 | <annevk> | at some point |
| 12:32 | <annevk> | and clearly state why the differences are there |
| 12:43 | <MikeSmith> | annevk - I would be willing to help out with putting such a Note together were you to draft it |
| 12:44 | <MikeSmith> | I think that (Note outlining HTML5 vs HTML4/XHTML1) differences is something that a lot of people/companies would find really helpful. |
| 12:44 | <MikeSmith> | some have in fact told me as much already |
| 12:44 | <MikeSmith> | so I think we ought to make it a priority |
| 12:53 | <Lachy> | regarding <acronym>, I agree the only reason it should be considered for inclusion is to ease the migration from HTML4 to HTML5 for documents that use it (if it's really widely used), but it should be defined with identical semantics to <abbr> |
| 13:26 | <zcorpan_> | http://forums.whatwg.org/viewtopic.php?t=9#322 - spam? |
| 13:27 | <annevk> | yes |
| 13:28 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 13:28 | <Lachy> | http://www.robertnyman.com/2007/06/07/thoughts-on-html-5/ |
| 13:30 | <annevk> | whoa, hsivonen reviews a spec :) |
| 13:30 | <Lachy> | which spec? |
| 13:32 | <annevk> | mobileok |
| 13:45 | <zcorpan_> | perhaps i should review it too |
| 13:47 | <gavins> | hrm, gmail marked hsivonen's review of mobileok as spam |
| 15:05 | <annevk> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cpre%3Ex%0Ax%3C/pre%3E%0A%3Cpre%3Ex%3Cscript%3E%20document.write%28%22%5Cn%5Cr%22%29%20%3C/script%3Ex%3C/pre%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%20alert%28encodeURIComponent%28document.getElementsByTagName%28%22pre%22%29%5B1%5D.childNodes%5B2%5D.textContent%29%29%20%3C/script%3E "proves" that scripts are normalized in some way too |
| 15:05 | <annevk> | oops |
| 15:05 | <annevk> | it doesn't |
| 15:06 | <annevk> | It does show (after some tweaking) that \r\n in the input stream becomes \n too |
| 15:08 | <annevk> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cpre%3E%3Cscript%3E%20document.getElementsByTagName%28%22pre%22%29%5B0%5D.textContent%20%3D%20%22x%5Cn%5Cr%5Cr%5Crx%22%20%3C/script%3E%3C/pre%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%20alert%28encodeURIComponent%28document.getElementsByTagName%28%22pre%22%29%5B0%5D.textContent%29%29%20%3C/script%3E is a better demo to play with |
| 15:10 | <annevk> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cpre%3Ex%3Cscript%3E%20document.getElementsByTagName%28%22pre%22%29%5B0%5D.firstChild.data%20%3D%20%22x%5Cn%5Cr%5Cr%5Crx%22%20%3C/script%3E%3C/pre%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%20w%28encodeURIComponent%28document.getElementsByTagName%28%22pre%22%29%5B0%5D.firstChild.data%29%29%20%3C/script%3E is one that works in IE |
| 15:11 | <annevk> | Interoperability is beatiful |
| 15:11 | <annevk> | beautiful* |
| 15:12 | <annevk> | Firefox breaks at \n for white-space:pre, IE at \r and Opera for both |
| 15:41 | <annevk> | e-mailed WHATWG with results |
| 16:11 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I'm back here now. |
| 16:15 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - I wanted to ask (encourage) you to put together a good command-line interface to your conformance checker if/when you have time. |
| 16:15 | <MikeSmith> | I've been messing around with it myself, but I know you could manage to put together something much better than I can manage. |
| 16:16 | <MikeSmith> | If we have that, people can start experimenting with integrating conformance-checking into IDEs and such. |
| 16:18 | <MikeSmith> | As in, IDEs that can parse the errors/warnings and use the line/column information to flag/highlight the places in the HTML source where the problems are. |
| 16:20 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - I need to drop off for a while |
| 16:20 | <MikeSmith> | back on later |
| 16:25 | <krijnh> | http://kilianvalkhof.com/2007/web/html5-improving-the-webwhen-its-done/ |
| 16:26 | <krijnh> | Fans annevk! ;) |
| 17:25 | <zcorpan_> | what does <textarea wrap=physical> do? |
| 17:26 | <zcorpan_> | same as wrap=hard? |
| 17:31 | <zcorpan_> | doesn't seem to do anything in any browser |
| 17:35 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: seen in the wild? |
| 17:36 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: For Java-based IDEs (and other Java apps) making the conformance embeddable with a clean API makes more sense. (on my todo list) |
| 17:36 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: a guy asks on a forum why it doesn't validate and what its replacement is |
| 17:37 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I put a command line tool on my todo list |
| 17:38 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: non-Java IDEs probably don't want to bear the JVM startup cost every time, so some kind of interprocess communication thing or a JNI montrosity is needed |
| 17:38 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: for CMSs the plan for interprocess communication is a RESTful Web service API |
| 17:39 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I don't see any obvious reason why HTTP to localhost wouldn't work for other apps |
| 17:40 | <hsivonen> | afk again |
| 17:40 | annevk | wonders what Henrik D is talking about |
| 17:40 | <othermaciej> | WWDC keynote coming up |
| 17:40 | <othermaciej> | for those who care |
| 17:41 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: is it streamed live? |
| 17:42 | <othermaciej> | hsivonen: there's a few places featuring liveblog commentary (engadget, gizmodo, etc) |
| 17:42 | <othermaciej> | dunno about streaming |
| 17:42 | <othermaciej> | I have to shut my laptop off now |
| 17:42 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: ok |
| 17:42 | <othermaciej> | there will be video after the fact I think |
| 17:42 | hsivonen | goes jogging and will watch the video later |
| 17:43 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - HTTP to localhost would work fine, but currently the conformance checker only supports http: URLs, right? (no support for file: ... ) |
| 17:47 | <zcorpan_> | MikeSmith: http and https |
| 18:38 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: currently the checker wants to fetch the document itself using http or https. The Web service would include the ability to POST the document to the checker |
| 19:42 | <zcorpan_> | http://www.apple.com/safari/download/ -- safari for windows |
| 19:42 | zcorpan_ | realises that most here might already know |
| 19:57 | zcorpan_ | can't get it to start on XP |
| 20:02 | <Philip`> | Ooh, it even does <canvas>, except it seems to be based on an old version of WebKit that has some Canvex-breaking bugs :-( |
| 20:03 | <Philip`> | plus the bug that means I can't run my canvas tests without it crashing |
| 20:04 | <zcorpan_> | Philip`: it works for you on XP? |
| 20:04 | <billmason> | wfm on XP, fwiw. |
| 20:05 | <zcorpan_> | hrm. SP2? |
| 20:05 | <Philip`> | I'm using Windows 2000 |
| 20:05 | <Philip`> | (on which it works) |
| 20:05 | billmason | is using XP Professional SP2 |
| 20:07 | <zcorpan_> | sigh... why doesn't it work for me |
| 20:09 | <zcorpan_> | perhaps it requires QT? |
| 20:14 | <Philip`> | Hmm, doesn't seem to have any more problems than WebKit-OSX at canvas rendering, which is nice, though it's limited to the few bits I'm testing and to my memory of what bits WebKit always breaks on |
| 20:24 | <Philip`> | http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/tests/tests/results.html - nothing interestingly different (unlike WebKit-Qt which applies much more creativity to its rendering) |
| 20:44 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: I didn't see that one coming. Did Apple resurrect Yellow Box for Windows? |
| 20:45 | <met_> | dunno why many pages are broken in Safari 3 beta? e.g. mozilla.org (Safari 2 is ok) |
| 20:59 | <virtuelv_> | anyone been able to get it running under Wine (Safari 3, that is) |
| 21:01 | <Philip`> | No - I get up to |
| 21:01 | <Philip`> | ... |
| 21:01 | <Philip`> | ;fixme:shell:URL_ParseUrl failed to parse L"" |
| 21:01 | <Philip`> | wine: Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x00000000 at address 0x6dc6ca5d (thread 0009), starting debugger... |
| 21:01 | <Philip`> | which isn't very useful |
| 21:02 | <virtuelv_> | well, you got further than me |
| 21:03 | <Philip`> | (Oh, now it doesn't get far either) |
| 21:03 | <Philip`> | Have you got as far as / beyond having problems with the C runtime? |
| 21:06 | <Philip`> | (s/get far/get that far/) |
| 21:16 | <virtuelv_> | err:module:import_dll Library MSVCR80.dll (which is needed by L"C:\\Program Files\\Safari\\icuuc36.dll") not found |
| 21:18 | <Philip`> | Try http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/msvcrt.tar.bz2 |
| 21:19 | <Philip`> | (It doesn't work if you just copy the DLLs into c:\windows\system or something, because Microsoft decided DLLs were far too easy to understand so now there's this SxS system with manifests and everything so that programs have far more ways in which to fail to run without giving decent error messages) |
| 21:20 | <Philip`> | (and once you've written a program and made it work, you can install VS2005 SP1 and then it all stops again and you have to recompile all your libraries) |
| 21:20 | <Philip`> | (or at least that's my experience...) |
| 21:24 | <virtuelv_> | well, now I'm up to loading runtime library incorrectly |
| 21:26 | <Philip`> | "An application has made an attempt to load the C runtime library incorrectly"? |
| 21:27 | <Philip`> | Hmm, do you have those three .dll and one .manifest file in the same directory as Safari? |
| 21:27 | <Philip`> | (I only get that message when the manifest is missing) |
| 21:31 | <virtuelv_> | wine: Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x00230000 at address 0x6b262e97 (thread 0009), starting debugger... |
| 21:31 | <virtuelv_> | Unhandled exception: page fault on read access to 0x00230000 in 32-bit code (0x6b262e97). |
| 21:31 | <virtuelv_> | I tried putting them in the windows directory firsdt |
| 21:32 | <Philip`> | Ah, okay |
| 21:32 | <Philip`> | I have no idea what to do once it starts getting access violations :-) |
| 21:33 | <virtuelv_> | don't know if there's much we can do |
| 21:39 | <Philip`> | I'm not sure if Apple will be interested in bug reports saying "it doesn't work in Wine"... |
| 21:42 | <met_> | Philip` it has even problem with running under localized Win XP |
| 22:07 | <jgraham> | Is there an list email relating to rev 880 ( Parse errors for <li> <dt> <dd> closing other elements)? I don't quite see what problem is being solved. |
| 22:10 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: the problem being solved is making implicit closing of elements whose end tags aren't supposed to be optional parse errors |
| 22:10 | <hsivonen> | jgraham: and yes, there was an email to the list about it (reply to an old email of mine) |
| 22:45 | <jgraham> | hsivonen: Thanks. |