| 00:27 | <zcorpan_> | <a href> <area href> <input src> <iframe src> <img src> |
| 00:27 | <zcorpan_> | those attributes are dropped in ie7 when using empty attribute syntax |
| 00:34 | <zcorpan_> | firefox doesn't drop any attributes |
| 00:37 | <zcorpan_> | opera drops many attributes |
| 00:44 | <zcorpan_> | http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/empty-attribute-syntax/ (the tests take a while to run... and 001.htm doesn't work in opera) |
| 01:01 | <Dashiva> | You really should stagger that script :) |
| 01:03 | <zcorpan_> | stagger? |
| 01:03 | <Dashiva> | setTimeout or setInterval so it doesn't run too long at a time |
| 01:03 | <zcorpan_> | why? |
| 01:05 | <Dashiva> | It's giving me the "heavy script" dialog, that's typically a bad sign |
| 01:05 | <zcorpan_> | so? just press "continue" |
| 01:05 | <zcorpan_> | it's a test case |
| 01:08 | <Hixie> | note that that dialog means that your test can't be automated |
| 01:08 | <Dashiva> | And that it impedes the tester's ability to multitask while the test runs :) |
| 01:08 | <zcorpan_> | what does that mean? that the results are not reliable? |
| 01:09 | <othermaciej> | it's harder to put things that use dialogs into automated regression testing frameworks |
| 01:09 | <zcorpan_> | aha |
| 01:09 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 01:09 | <zcorpan_> | well i've got the results already |
| 01:23 | <zcorpan_> | sent results to the list, although i haven't suggested any change of the spec |
| 01:32 | <Dashiva> | I've refined the test a bit, getting some different results |
| 01:34 | <Dashiva> | Guessing we're only interested in attributes that don't drop in both cases? |
| 01:35 | <zcorpan_> | indeed |
| 01:36 | <Dashiva> | As far as I can see, opera only drops event handlers |
| 01:36 | <Dashiva> | Oh wait, wrong opera |
| 01:37 | <Dashiva> | annevk: I need you :) |
| 01:37 | <zcorpan_> | <a ==""> |
| 01:39 | <zcorpan_> | interesting case |
| 01:39 | <zcorpan_> | opera and firefox drop the attribute |
| 01:40 | <zcorpan_> | in ie the attribute name is the empty string and the value is ="" |
| 01:41 | <zcorpan_> | html5 says it should have the attribute name = and the value being the empty string |
| 03:22 | <zcorpan_> | http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Axml5.googlecode.com%2Fsvn%2Ftrunk%2Fspecification%2FOverview.html -- google thinks that text/plain document is text/html (check the cached version) |
| 05:19 | <zcorpan_> | ok, a new XP account makes safari work... |
| 05:19 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan_: are you trying Safari for windows? |
| 05:19 | <zcorpan_> | yeah |
| 05:20 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan_: if you hit any bugs please report them - we're trying to flush out the top critical issues now that it is getting broader testing |
| 05:20 | <zcorpan_> | it seems that for a number of people it crashes on startup |
| 05:20 | <zcorpan_> | including me |
| 05:20 | <zcorpan_> | but creating a new XP account makes it work |
| 05:20 | <zcorpan_> | for that account |
| 05:21 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan_: does your user account have a non-ASCII character in the username? |
| 05:21 | <zcorpan_> | ah |
| 05:21 | <zcorpan_> | yes |
| 05:21 | <zcorpan_> | Ä |
| 05:21 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan_: I think that's one of the known issues |
| 05:21 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 05:21 | <othermaciej> | we're definitely all over that one |
| 05:21 | <othermaciej> | thanks for confirmation! |
| 05:21 | <zcorpan_> | np |
| 05:39 | <zcorpan_> | othermaciej: <h1>-<h6> elements don't get their text content rendered |
| 05:39 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan_: hmm... |
| 05:39 | <zcorpan_> | othermaciej: it's there in the dom and e.g. an <input> element gets rendered |
| 05:39 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan_: can you try <b>? |
| 05:39 | <othermaciej> | some people are seeing bugs with bold and italic not showing up |
| 05:39 | <zcorpan_> | tried <em> |
| 05:40 | <zcorpan_> | oh |
| 05:40 | <zcorpan_> | wait |
| 05:40 | <zcorpan_> | yeah, that's it |
| 05:41 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan_: I asked hyatt to come over here - would you mind helping him find out more details of your system configuration? |
| 05:41 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan_: we are trying to reproduce the problem |
| 05:41 | <zcorpan_> | sure |
| 05:41 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan_: or you could come to #webkit if you don't want to spam this channel |
| 05:41 | <zcorpan_> | sure |
| 06:05 | <annevk> | ah, more people are awake this early :) |
| 06:05 | <othermaciej> | hi annevk! |
| 06:05 | <annevk> | morning |
| 06:17 | <hsivonen> | morning |
| 06:19 | <othermaciej> | hello hsivonen |
| 06:24 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: forgot to mention in the email that the TextEmittingErrorHandler is activated by appending &out=text to the request URI |
| 06:24 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: and that it is intentional that it gives a Bad Request HTTP error if the doc= parameter is missing |
| 06:41 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - thanks |
| 06:41 | <MikeSmith> | 'nother question: What's your timetable like for adding XML/JSON support? |
| 06:46 | <MikeSmith> | and yet another: Wanted to ask what tools/mechanism you're using that allows you to get line numbers back in Schematron error messages |
| 06:57 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: no schedule for XML/JSON yet. XML is pretty much designed. JSON isn't. |
| 06:58 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I'm using Jing with SAXON 6 |
| 07:02 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - does Saxon rely on an extension function to get access to the line numbers? |
| 07:02 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I think so, yes. |
| 07:02 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: IIRC, Jing has XSLT engine-specific code for that (for SAXON and Xalan) |
| 07:14 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - OK ... I need to read up on it more, I guess |
| 07:16 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - btw, I updated from your cvs and recompiled and have been trying &out=text with some URLs for non-conformant documents, but I just keep getting a zero-byte response |
| 07:16 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: that's because you haven't filled in the implementation, yet. ;-) |
| 07:17 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: see TextEmittingErrorHandler.java |
| 07:17 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: I just refactored to the point of making you a nice stub class |
| 07:17 | <MikeSmith> | ah, I see ... I've actually got to do some work ... damn |
| 07:21 | <MikeSmith> | OK, if/when I can manage to get it put together, I'll contribute it under the MIT license |
| 07:21 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: cool |
| 07:23 | <annevk> | Has someone figured out body.onload versus window.onload etc. already? |
| 07:23 | <annevk> | Or maybe just testcases? |
| 07:24 | <othermaciej> | annevk: we have test cases in the WebKit layout tests |
| 07:24 | <othermaciej> | we changed to mostly match how Firefox does it (which does not quite match either IE or Opera) |
| 07:25 | <othermaciej> | I have to go home now though |
| 07:25 | <othermaciej> | will be back online later |
| 07:31 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: iirc, in firefox, it does not fire on body and then bubble up to window... it's fired on window but magically works on body too or something |
| 07:31 | annevk | thought body.onload set window.onload |
| 07:32 | <zcorpan_> | yeah, that might be how it works |
| 07:36 | <annevk> | but I'd actually like to know what Internet Explorer does |
| 08:01 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, 9.2 has still all kinds of attribute quirks if I remember correctly |
| 08:02 | <annevk> | Kestrel is pretty close to HTML5 I think (minus some tokenization details) |
| 08:03 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: ok |
| 08:05 | <hsivonen> | annevk: Kestrel? Opera.next? |
| 08:05 | <zcorpan_> | opera 10 |
| 08:06 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: how does it handle <a =="">? |
| 08:06 | <zcorpan_> | er, opera 9.5 i mean |
| 08:07 | <zcorpan_> | opera 10 is Peregrine |
| 08:13 | <annevk> | I believe the official name of the next version of Opera is Kestrel |
| 08:13 | <annevk> | It was announced on some semi-official blog over a month ago or so |
| 08:14 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, dropped |
| 08:16 | <annevk> | <a "="test"> does "work" |
| 08:17 | <annevk> | Firefox drops that |
| 08:20 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: ok |
| 08:22 | annevk | isn't sure it's ok :) |
| 08:22 | <zcorpan_> | ie treats <a "="test"> as equivalent to <a ?="test"> |
| 08:48 | <annevk> | The news that Safari was released on Windows drove thousands of people to my site... |
| 08:48 | <annevk> | crazy |
| 08:48 | <othermaciej> | annevk: why your site? |
| 08:49 | <othermaciej> | did the announcement link to you? |
| 08:49 | <Fuzzy76> | I'm guessing the number would've been more than thousands if that was the case :) |
| 08:50 | <annevk> | othermaciej, google searches for "safari on windows" |
| 08:50 | annevk | has this post on Swift titled "Safari for Windows" in 2006 |
| 08:51 | <zcorpan_> | annevankesteren.nl/2006/08/swift is the 10th result |
| 08:51 | <othermaciej> | heh |
| 09:00 | <Jero> | err, didn't Hixie meant </form> tags here instead of </font>? http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=883&to=884 |
| 09:03 | <annevk> | I think so |
| 09:14 | hsivonen | doesn't like "mobile context" |
| 09:15 | <annevk> | Where's that from? |
| 09:16 | <annevk> | By the way, why does origin in HTML5 not talk about document.domain |
| 09:16 | <hsivonen> | annevk: that's part of the mobileOK and dotMOBI marketing speak |
| 09:17 | <annevk> | Does this mean you do like "mobileOk" and "dotMOBI"? :D |
| 09:17 | <hsivonen> | anecdotally, tech-savvy S60 browser users hate it when sites conclude that the client is in the "mobile context" |
| 09:17 | <hsivonen> | annevk: umm. no :-) |
| 09:17 | <annevk> | Opera Mini users too I think |
| 09:18 | <hsivonen> | btw, the whattf repo migrated to SVN. time to update scripts... |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | your own scripts? |
| 09:21 | <hsivonen> | yes |
| 09:21 | <annevk> | whattf.org needs an update anyway |
| 09:21 | <hsivonen> | well, fantasai's scripts too |
| 09:23 | <annevk> | why not make it a code.google or sf project? |
| 09:26 | <hsivonen> | 1) it was already at cvsdude and they took care of the migration without me having to figure it out (trading money for less worries), 2) Google wouldn't tell me their terms regarding the freedom to leave without me logging in first--not cool, 3) to avoid all the cruft on sf.net |
| 09:29 | <annevk> | re myself: "Note: The domain attribute is used to enable pages on different hosts of a domain to access each others' DOMs, though this is not yet defined by this specification." |
| 10:30 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, what bug stops the attribute test from working? |
| 10:30 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, also, did you report it? |
| 10:32 | hsivonen | starts writing Java test harnesses for the html5lib test data |
| 10:36 | <hendry> | hsivonen: do you have an opinion on java applets? |
| 10:40 | <hsivonen> | hendry: yes. I think Java applets are a failure. I have used the Web before applets were launched and so far I haven't seen an applet that 1) wouldn't be better in a standalone window (e.g. WebStart) OR 2) Wouldn't be better as JavaScript OR 3) wasn't useless |
| 10:41 | <jruderman> | "standalone window"? |
| 10:42 | <hsivonen> | jruderman: the useful applets that I've seen that didn't necessarily call for JavaScript didn't benefit from being embedded in a rectangle in HTML--on the contrary |
| 10:43 | <jruderman> | i don't see the connection between being used in the browser and being surrounded by other things |
| 10:44 | <jruderman> | java does suck as a plugin, but "it's usually surrounded by other stuff when it should be width=100% height=100%" is not one of the main reasons |
| 10:45 | <hendry> | hsivonen: I have some requests for java in the webc distribution. I want to say no, though I feel I need some argumentation |
| 10:45 | <hsivonen> | jruderman: my point is that the stuff that is useful and makes sense as Java doesn't benefit from being inside the browser process |
| 10:46 | annevk | wonders what makes sense as Java |
| 10:46 | <jruderman> | lol |
| 10:46 | <hsivonen> | annevk: prior to <canvas>, any complex educational interactive visualization |
| 10:47 | <hsivonen> | annevk: demo version of Opera Mini |
| 10:47 | <jruderman> | the benefit of being inside the browser process is that the user doesn't have to trust you or install stuff |
| 10:47 | <hsivonen> | jruderman: WebStart |
| 10:47 | <annevk> | hsivonen, ah, yeah, demoing Opera Mini makes some sense :) |
| 10:48 | <hsivonen> | the main problem is that Sun didn't come up with WebStart in 1995 |
| 10:48 | <othermaciej> | jruderman: but then people make signed applets |
| 10:48 | <othermaciej> | which are a pox on all mankind |
| 10:48 | <jruderman> | othermaciej: true, but that's only some applets |
| 10:48 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: dunno. i didn't |
| 10:49 | <hsivonen> | hendry: why do you want to say no? |
| 10:49 | hsivonen | wonders if Opera for Wii does Java |
| 10:50 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, what did you change? |
| 10:50 | <zcorpan_> | attributes[...].specified -> hasAttribute(...) |
| 10:51 | <hendry> | hsivonen: because I hate Java ;) |
| 10:51 | <annevk> | per http://gonintendo.com/?p=7849 it is not supported... |
| 10:51 | <hendry> | hsivonen: also it had 100+ megs to the distro |
| 10:51 | <hendry> | (i think) |
| 10:52 | <hendry> | i just generally feel Java shouldn't be on the Web |
| 10:52 | <hendry> | but I might be wrong |
| 10:52 | <hsivonen> | hendry: Java probably shoudn't be on the Web but it is pretty good at powering the Web on the server side |
| 10:53 | <hendry> | hsivonen: i'm fine with that |
| 10:54 | <zcorpan_> | doesn't wiki use java to embed video? |
| 10:54 | <hsivonen> | oh yeah, the Java Theora impl could count as useful. but then again, I'd be OK with all non-ad videos having their own windows |
| 10:55 | hsivonen | likes the way Flip4Mac can dispatch embedded video to QuickTime Player |
| 11:32 | <annevk> | What would be a good name for a method that takes a media query and returns true for false depending on whether it's applicable? |
| 11:33 | <annevk> | testMedia(), matchMedia() ... ? |
| 11:40 | <zcorpan_> | currentMedia |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | That .type |
| 11:41 | <annevk> | That's* |
| 11:41 | <zcorpan_> | .type of what? |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | window.media.type |
| 11:43 | <annevk> | the other case is having something like window.media.matchMedia("screen and (min-width:300px)") |
| 11:56 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: the snapshot feature in opera's developer console doesn't escape attribute values. e.g. & and " are not converted to entities |
| 12:06 | <hsivonen> | annevk: what's the purpose of html5lib sanitizer? is it for making html embedded in feeds safe for publishing at another domain? |
| 12:09 | <annevk> | I'm not responsible for it |
| 12:09 | <annevk> | for either of the things you guys mention :) |
| 12:55 | <Dashiva> | annevk: around? |
| 13:05 | <annevk> | always |
| 13:18 | <annevk> | these mobile people are knowingly ruining application/xhtml+xml |
| 13:18 | <annevk> | ouch :( |
| 13:18 | <annevk> | all good reasons for XML5 I suppose... |
| 14:19 | <annevk> | It would be nice if people could come up with actual arguments against a feature instead of "it would make me feel better" |
| 14:20 | <Fuzzy76> | I thought making people feel better was the main goal of HTML5? ;) |
| 14:21 | <annevk> | The question is of course that if we do what he asks for if he actually feels better in the long run |
| 14:21 | <annevk> | I'm not so sure about that |
| 14:23 | <annevk> | (We also can't satisfy everyone...) |
| 18:08 | <zcorpan_> | anyone familiar with the google maps api? |