| 00:06 | <Lachy> | Philip`: just send any comments you have to public-webapi |
| 01:21 | <Hixie> | Philip`: "CSS Selectors" are selectors used in a css style sheet; the terminology in the selectors spec should be consistent for that |
| 02:38 | <Lachy> | Hixie, does XHTML Modularisation serve any purpose beyond splitting up the DTDs? |
| 02:39 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: in theory you could reuse XHTML Modules to make your own XHTML subset or to incorporate HTML elements and attributes into a different language |
| 02:39 | <Lachy> | othermaciej: I meant practical purposes |
| 02:39 | <othermaciej> | I'm not sure what relevance it really has given that DTDs are considered mostly obsolete |
| 02:39 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: well, do you consider XHTML Mobile Profile a practical purpose? |
| 02:39 | <Lachy> | not really |
| 02:40 | <Lachy> | I was just checking, cause that's effectively what I'm about to say in the email I'm about to send |
| 02:40 | <othermaciej> | it doesn't have a direct effect on implementations of XHTML per se |
| 02:40 | <othermaciej> | it's just a DTD factoring trick |
| 02:40 | <othermaciej> | I'm not sure how it even applies to XHTML2 |
| 02:41 | <Lachy> | I think it applies because the XHTML2 spec refers to chapters as "modules" |
| 02:42 | <Lachy> | and because the DTD will be modularised |
| 02:49 | <othermaciej> | XHTML2 does not have a DTD |
| 02:49 | <othermaciej> | is that planned? |
| 02:49 | <othermaciej> | I thought it would be based on a schema language |
| 02:57 | <Lachy> | om_out: yes, they are planning a DTD http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/dtd_module_defs.html#a_dtd_module_defs |
| 03:00 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: the modularization means you can develop applications for different purposes not only XHTML 2.0 |
| 03:01 | <karlUshi> | It means that for example someone who would like to create a specific application for data management in its own company, or a cms |
| 03:01 | <Lachy> | you can do that without modules |
| 03:01 | <karlUshi> | can use part of XHTML Modules plus other custom defined modules. |
| 03:01 | <karlUshi> | without having to reinvent everything |
| 03:01 | <karlUshi> | a kind of plug-in architecture. |
| 03:02 | <karlUshi> | btw it is not related to DTD per se |
| 03:02 | <Lachy> | people have been using HTML in CMSs for years without modules |
| 03:02 | <karlUshi> | but to modularization |
| 03:02 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: yes and ? |
| 03:02 | <karlUshi> | people have been using XML in CMS for years too |
| 03:02 | <Lachy> | and so modularisation isn't really necessary for that purpose. |
| 03:02 | <karlUshi> | creating their own languages |
| 03:03 | <karlUshi> | it is not because Lachy doesn't need it :) that some people don't need it. |
| 03:04 | <karlUshi> | which makes me think that I should find the time to update my old list of CMS http://www.la-grange.net/cms I have 10s of emails in the queue |
| 03:04 | <Lachy> | I maintain that modularisation is just a buzzword with little practical benefit. Hence, the XHTML2 WG's argument that HTML5 doesn't use modularisation is irrelevant |
| 03:04 | <karlUshi> | because you are not the main customer of modularization |
| 03:05 | <karlUshi> | it's a bit like saying "I'm using my skateboard every day to go to university. I'm a cool kid. I don't need a car. it doesn't have a practical purpose." |
| 03:06 | <Lachy> | it's also harmful for those who are. Just look at the XHTML Mobile Profile, for instance. It's a complete disaster that only serves to fragment the mobile web from the desktop web |
| 03:07 | <karlUshi> | hmmm another debate vi/emacs, pepsi/coke, boring… next. |
| 03:44 | <yod> | Hi, I'm a mac... and I'm a Peee ceee |
| 07:13 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I was away for Midsummer. |
| 07:14 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: I no longer think that a single pass over the HTML document bytes is feasible when meta charset sniffing is needed |
| 07:15 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: as for the charset sniffing algorithm vs. using the tokenizer itself, I don't know if the sniffing algorithm is sufficient |
| 07:15 | <hsivonen> | let's hope it is |
| 07:20 | <hsivonen> | karlUshi: I think XHTML-MP demonstrates that Modularization does not work. WAP Forum did not respect the prescribed module boundaries when they did their thing |
| 07:21 | <hsivonen> | karlUshi: making a copy of a monolithic DTD (or another schema) and editing it to taste would have worked |
| 07:21 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: well, see the recent changes, let me know if it's ok |
| 07:26 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: ok |
| 07:36 | <hsivonen> | annevk: the tracker is 500 |
| 08:12 | <Hixie> | christ, the html list sure is a lot of knee jerking |
| 08:51 | <annevk> | hsivonen, I can't reach it at all |
| 08:53 | <annevk> | hmm, get it now though |
| 08:54 | <annevk> | I wonder what the issue is |
| 08:55 | hsivonen | tries hard going down the versioning rathole again |
| 08:56 | <hsivonen> | ..to avoid going... |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | hsivonen, maybe the problem is that svn.whatwg.org is down |
| 10:01 | <annevk> | I'd suggest to use http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html for now |
| 10:04 | <annevk> | yeah, the script works fine |
| 10:04 | <zcorpan_> | anyone know how to test walk through a range of characters with javascript? e.g. "\u0000" .. "\uFFFF" |
| 10:04 | <zcorpan_> | s/test// |
| 10:06 | <annevk> | eval("\u" + number) maybe... |
| 10:09 | <zcorpan_> | the number will be returned in base 10 |
| 10:09 | <annevk> | zcorpan_, doesn't JavaScript have a simple way to make a char from an integer? |
| 10:10 | <zcorpan_> | i thought it did but i can't find anything |
| 10:10 | <hsivonen> | annevk: ok |
| 10:11 | <hsivonen> | annevk: you need a four-digit hex string |
| 10:13 | <hsivonen> | Number.toString([base]) |
| 10:14 | <zcorpan_> | ah |
| 10:15 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Core_JavaScript_1.5_Reference:Global_Objects:String:fromCharCode |
| 10:16 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: thanks |
| 10:52 | <zcorpan_> | a "development mode" in browsers is not such a bad idea (where the browser complains about non-conforming stuff) |
| 10:52 | <zcorpan_> | that can be an extension obviously |
| 11:12 | <annevk> | it's called "error console" |
| 11:18 | <zcorpan_> | yeah, but i think he had in mind something more agressive |
| 11:18 | <zcorpan_> | http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/entities/trailing-semicolon/real/ |
| 11:25 | <annevk> | I suppose |
| 11:38 | <the_mart> | It takes a while to run! |
| 11:38 | <zcorpan_> | yes |
| 11:39 | <zcorpan_> | though it was surprisingly fast in kestrel |
| 11:39 | <zcorpan_> | :) |
| 11:39 | <the_mart> | I keep getting “unresponsive script” warnings. ;oþ |
| 11:40 | <annevk> | ah, the joys of Firefox |
| 11:40 | <annevk> | man, those people complainig about ï should just use the Unicode character directly |
| 11:40 | <annevk> | or some character escape |
| 11:40 | <annevk> | or whatever we call them now |
| 11:41 | <zcorpan_> | 004 is fast in safari 3 too |
| 11:42 | <the_mart> | I was thinking the same. |
| 11:44 | <annevk> | I added "Open Issues": http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/html4-differences/Overview.html |
| 11:46 | <the_mart> | What actually happened to the “summary” attribute on tables? |
| 11:46 | gsnedders | didn't even remember |html|@version existed till I looked at that document |
| 11:49 | <annevk> | the_mart, not researched yet |
| 11:49 | <the_mart> | Oh. |
| 11:50 | <annevk> | It's not really clear to me what it should contain btw. If it's important it should probably be mentioned before the actual table and not be hidden in some attribute... |
| 11:50 | <annevk> | And details about the table can be obtained with simple algorithms... |
| 11:51 | <the_mart> | Really? I always gave a brief description of the purpose of the table. |
| 11:51 | <annevk> | that's my personal pov though, not that of any WG :) |
| 12:06 | <zcorpan_> | annevk: a glance of the table, so that you can skip the table altogether |
| 12:06 | <mikeday> | Bible5: "Thou SHOULD not kill" <-- what a classic :) |
| 12:32 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I trust that Hixie will turn down the backwards-incompatible diaeresis suggestions in due course |
| 12:32 | hsivonen | notes that ä and ö in Finnish don't have German umlaut semantics but people are quite OK with the entity names |
| 12:34 | <annevk> | are the actual unicode characters different? |
| 12:38 | <zcorpan_> | no |
| 12:39 | <annevk> | in that case the argument is silly |
| 12:39 | <zcorpan_> | yes |
| 12:47 | <hsivonen> | (it would be incredibly stupid to insist on making separate code points for Finnish semantics because the whole point of using the same characters is compatibility with German and Swedish printing hardware) |
| 12:47 | <hsivonen> | (same goes for pretty much all European languages whose orthography was influenced by German printing hardware) |
| 13:12 | <annevk> | interesting, changed </form> handling in html5lib and again no tests broke |
| 13:12 | <annevk> | with over 3000 tests that ran... |
| 13:13 | <annevk> | though I suspect that number is not accurate (as some tests are run multiple times) |
| 13:15 | <annevk> | 8 times |
| 14:12 | <met_> | annevk: looking at http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/WD-XMLHttpRequest-20070618/ I cann't find there if onreadystatechange should be raised in sync request or not |
| 14:23 | <annevk> | met_, why not? |
| 14:24 | <met_> | is it specified? cannot find it |
| 14:25 | <annevk> | it's just part of the send() algorithm |
| 14:27 | <annevk> | met_, only when sync behavior is different it is mentioned |
| 14:30 | <met_> | ok, I was confused |
| 14:32 | <met_> | but looks Firefox ignore onreadystatechange in sync |
| 14:32 | <met_> | safari is ok |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | that could be true |
| 14:34 | <annevk> | browsers are very weird :) |
| 14:35 | <met_> | 8-) |
| 14:36 | <met_> | ok, thanks |
| 14:36 | <annevk> | feel free to file a bug on firefox |
| 14:39 | <met_> | there are so many reported XHR bugs in FF, this should be probably there alreay, im going to look |
| 14:40 | met_ | wonders who is original author of Bible5 text |
| 14:45 | <zcorpan_> | <object> needs examples in the spec |
| 14:45 | <annevk> | someone needs to write a tutorial |
| 14:45 | <zcorpan_> | yeah |
| 14:46 | zcorpan_ | writes a wish list to santa |
| 14:48 | <Lachy> | can we write to him at santa⊙wo ? |
| 14:49 | <annevk> | there's devnull⊙wo |
| 14:49 | <Lachy> | has Hixie really set that up? |
| 14:50 | <Philip`> | Is that the address of the list moderator? |
| 14:51 | <annevk> | your message will get bounced I suppose |
| 15:13 | <Lachy> | Philip`: in your email you wrote ""var <var>x</var>" - seems odd to do that for just a few of the variables..." Are you suggesting that I remove the <var> markup or add it to all of them? |
| 15:31 | <met_> | annevk: already there https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=313646 |
| 16:32 | <Philip`> | Lachy: I don't think I have any particular preference either way - it'd just be nicer to be consistent (at least in my opinion), and maybe the easiest way to be consistent is to not use <var> inside the <pre> blocks at all |
| 16:32 | <Lachy> | yeah ok, but I'll use it in the prose when referring to the variables |
| 16:35 | <Philip`> | Okay, that seems reasonable - it should be clear that <var>x</var> in the prose is referring to the un-marked-up "var x = ..." in the code |
| 16:35 | <Philip`> | (Actually, all this stuff is clear anyway without making any changes, if one doesn't insist on being pedantic :-) ) |
| 16:42 | <Lachy> | Philip`: I insist on being pedantic |
| 17:00 | <Philip`> | Lachy: About the 'var' scoping: JS is weird because it doesn't matter where you say "var x" in a function (or how many times you say it) - it always just declares that the current function has a variable 'x' (always initialised to 'undefined'), and it totally ignores any non-function scoping |
| 17:00 | <Lachy> | really? That's weird. |
| 17:01 | <Philip`> | so "function f() { x = 1; var x; }" will have a local variable 'x', and won't affect the global variable 'x' |
| 17:02 | <Philip`> | I agree it's weird :-) |
| 17:04 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: should I expect tokenization changes this week? |
| 17:04 | <Lachy> | well, I first learned about variable scope in languages like Java where it works like I described in the email. |
| 17:04 | <Philip`> | It's why you get fun stuff like "for (var i = 0; i < 10; ++i) { var j = i*2; setTimeout(100, function () { alert(j) }) }" giving an unexpected value of j, since there's only one j shared by the whole function |
| 17:05 | <Philip`> | I believe JS 1.7 adds 'let' which acts like every normal programming language |
| 17:05 | <Philip`> | Uh, I think that setTimeout is a bit wrong |
| 17:07 | <Lachy> | you got the function and delay reversed |
| 17:07 | Philip` | can never remember which way they go |
| 17:08 | <Lachy> | neither can I. I looked it up. |
| 19:55 | <Dashiva> | Is it just me, or do all the accessibility people have giant signatures? |
| 19:55 | <gsnedders> | some |
| 19:55 | <gsnedders> | of |
| 19:55 | <gsnedders> | them |
| 19:55 | <gsnedders> | cover |
| 19:55 | <gsnedders> | many |
| 19:55 | <gsnedders> | lines |
| 19:56 | <gsnedders> | (but yes, most seem to, though you can simply tell a screen-reader to stop, so it isn't an accessibility issue) |
| 20:01 | <zcorpan_> | Dashiva, quote Is it just me, or do all the accessibility people have giant signatures? unquote yeah. |
| 20:07 | <Dashiva> | Oh man, don't get me started on the quote/unquote stuff |
| 20:07 | <Dashiva> | I thought top-posting was as bad as it got |
| 20:18 | <Jero> | in this piece of code "<nav id=1><nav id=2/></nav>", should #2 be treated as a subnav? |
| 20:21 | <zcorpan_> | Jero: the spec just says that <nav> represents a section with navigation links. thus it will be a section with navigation links in a section with navigation links... |
| 20:26 | <Jero> | zcorpan_, yeah, but i think there are cases where it'd be convenient if it would |
| 20:26 | <Jero> | it would be, for instance, a lot easier to understand the structure of a website |
| 20:27 | <zcorpan_> | could you give an example? |
| 20:27 | <Jero> | http://tweakers.net/ for instance (sorry, hreflang=nl) |
| 20:28 | <zcorpan_> | (dat is ok, ik kan nederlands ;) ) |
| 20:28 | <Jero> | flex |
| 20:28 | <Jero> | the red nav is their main menu and the black nav is the submenu that applies to the selected section |
| 20:29 | <zcorpan_> | why not nested <ul>s within the <nav>? |
| 20:31 | <Jero> | because i think having a predefined way to discover submenus is better |
| 20:31 | <Jero> | when a UA sees a <nav> inside a <nav>, it knows it is submenu |
| 20:31 | <zcorpan_> | when a UA sees an <ul> inside an <ul> inside a <nav>, it knows it is a submenu |
| 20:31 | <zcorpan_> | ? |
| 20:32 | <zcorpan_> | what is a UA to do with a submenu? |
| 20:32 | <Jero> | because there are a lot of different elements allowed inside the <nav> element, it'd be harder to discover submenus for there are multiple possibilities |
| 20:32 | <Jero> | Google for instance |
| 20:33 | <zcorpan_> | what is Google to do with a submenu? |
| 20:33 | <Jero> | if it wants to spider a website, I think Google (or any other search engine) would like to understand the structure of a website |
| 20:34 | <zcorpan_> | right. i don't see why <ul>s don't do the job |
| 20:35 | <Philip`> | Or if Google wants to display those useful "About | Download | Screenshots | etc" links on its results page, linking to different specific pages of the top result, where presumably it derives those from the site's structure somehow, perhaps |
| 20:40 | <Jero> | zcorpan_: it's hard to find a good argument about the <ul> case because i can't think of any other element that could be used inside a <nav> element to list the pages, but because the spec doesn't limit the content of the <nav> element to <ul> elements, I thought it'd be nice to have a predefined way to discover submenus that works with all possible elements that can be used in <nav> elements. |
| 20:40 | <Jero> | Philip`, interesting, but I can't find such links >_> Where can I find them? |
| 20:41 | <Philip`> | The multipage HTML5 spec does something roughly like <nav><a href=...>previous page</a> <a>contents</a> <a>next page</a></nav>, as a non-ul example of navs (though I don't know if it's a good example) |
| 20:42 | <Philip`> | Jero: Something like http://www.google.com/search?q=lame links to four sub-pages for the first result |
| 20:42 | <Jero> | oh interesting |
| 20:43 | <Philip`> | and it seems to get the page names via some non-trivial method |
| 20:55 | <Jero> | Philip`, yeah, it seems to get the page names from the <title> and/or <h1> elements |
| 20:55 | <Jero> | or a combination of the two |
| 20:56 | <Philip`> | I'll just attribute it to magic Google dust |
| 20:58 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: i already turned down the umlaut thing |
| 20:58 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: i don't expect to change the tokeniser this week, in fact i don't really expect to change the spec this week, i want to work on research |
| 21:00 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: ok. thanks for the info. do you expect later changes to entity parsing? |
| 21:09 | <Hixie> | not particularly, but who knows |
| 21:09 | <Hixie> | mostly i expect to change the encoding details |
| 21:11 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: ok |
| 22:07 | <zcorpan> | "xforms has been designed -- one of the members of the wg was blind himself -- and so now we know it's accessible out of the box. you create your website using xforms and you don't have to do it following any guidelines or anything, it's automatically accessible." -- steven pemberton, http://blip.tv/file/241108 |
| 22:39 | <Hixie> | zcorpan: one of the members of the html5 wg is blind too |
| 22:39 | <Hixie> | same guy, in fact |
| 22:39 | <zcorpan> | i don't follow his reasoning though |
| 22:40 | <Hixie> | on an unrelated note, i wonder if anyone is going to use the recent thread where chaals explained that xhtml2's target audience was different than html's to argue that xhtml2 should be called something else |
| 22:40 | <zcorpan> | not me :) |
| 22:41 | <zcorpan> | it doesn't bother me what xhtml2 will be called. so long as the xml serialization of html5 is called xhtml5 |
| 22:42 | hsivonen | notes that Java 1.5 became Java5 |
| 22:42 | <webben> | Hixie: Aren't there (at least) 2 blind members of the HTML5 WG? |
| 22:42 | <webben> | Gregory and TV Raman are both members aren't they? |
| 22:42 | <Hixie> | oh is Gregory blind too? |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | well then XHTML5 must be TWICE as good as xforms |
| 22:43 | <zcorpan> | LOL |
| 22:43 | <Hixie> | i really pity anyone who has to use jaws, btw |
| 22:43 | <webben> | Hixie: don't forget that we don't really know how to use it |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | how do you mean? |
| 22:44 | <webben> | Hixie: The way people who use AT all the time use it is different to the way casual web developers tend to use it. |
| 22:44 | <zcorpan> | yeah |
| 22:44 | <Hixie> | my problems with jaws are far more fundamental |
| 22:45 | <webben> | While screen readers are pretty awful, I don't think they're dramatically worse than UAs to begin with. |
| 22:45 | <Hixie> | let's see if i can get it running again, hold on |
| 22:45 | <webben> | Hixie: Ah ... yeah for the performance problems like that you'd have to blame application authors |
| 22:46 | <webben> | (for not using accessibility frameworks ... hence necessitating JAWS to fake being a video driver) |
| 22:46 | <zcorpan> | i've heard that you have to use a screen reader with the monitor turned off for at least 3 weeks to have an idea of what it's like |
| 22:46 | <webben> | e.g. Safari for Windows doesn't use native controls and doesn't expose to MSAA (for the actual web content) |
| 22:46 | <webben> | it's that sort of thing which has made AT's life really difficult |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | how the hell do i get jaws to talk again |
| 22:47 | <webben> | (also MSAA is old and sucky) |
| 22:47 | <webben> | Hixie: why did it stop? |
| 22:47 | webben | didn't have big performance problems when experimenting with JAWs 7.1 |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | i closed it one time and it has never spoken since |
| 22:47 | <Hixie> | i've no idea why |
| 22:48 | <webben> | since, meaning at all ever, or in this windows session? |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | at all ever since the last time i closed it |
| 22:48 | <Hixie> | running the jaws program brings up this window with their logo but does nothing else |
| 22:49 | <webben> | Hixie: do you have any other readers installed? |
| 22:49 | <Hixie> | nope |
| 22:49 | <webben> | Hixie: I'd post a quick message to one of the JAWS's mailing lists. A regular user would probably know what to do. |
| 22:50 | <webben> | Hixie: does JAWS respond to commands (e.g. does the link list open) |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | how do i get that up again? my manual's in the other building |
| 22:50 | <webben> | Hixie: the JAWS manual is available for download |
| 22:50 | <Hixie> | let me try logging out and back in again |
| 22:50 | <webben> | (in an exe file, which unloads to chm, bleh) |
| 22:52 | <othermaciej> | zcorpan: we'll probably fix accessibility in time, it just didn't make the cut for the beta |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | ooo |
| 22:52 | <Hixie> | that helped |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | wow, jaws doesn't handle putty well |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | it just says "exclaim" over and over |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | anyway |
| 22:53 | <Hixie> | let's see how it handles my blog |
| 22:53 | <webben> | Hixie: online docs: http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_support/doc_screenreaders.asp |
| 22:53 | <webben> | (useful PDF of keyboard shortcuts at top) |
| 22:54 | <webben> | http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/Surfs_Up/_Surfs_Up_Start_Here.htm also useful if you haven't seen it |
| 22:55 | <webben> | Hixie: INS + F7 to list links (on a standard desktop PC keyboard with the standard JAWS layout) |
| 22:56 | <Hixie> | i love that when i hit a page with an http auth dialog, while the dialog is waiting for me to log in, IE keeps saying "25%. 26%. 27%." |
| 22:57 | hsivonen | notes that JAWS documentation uses <b> |
| 22:57 | <webben> | hsivonen: Screen reader developers are not experts in the HTML domain. |
| 22:57 | <webben> | their websites are generally awful |
| 22:57 | <webben> | (NVDA and Raman's being honourable exceptions IIRC) |
| 22:58 | <hsivonen> | webben: does <b> make their site horrendously inaccessible compared to <strong>? |
| 22:58 | <webben> | hsivonen: No, no. I'm talking about their authoring practices generally. |
| 22:59 | <webben> | the common failure to provide docs in HTML format is kind of a giveaway |
| 22:59 | <webben> | window-eyes provides HTML docs ... in a frameset |
| 23:00 | <Hixie> | I love how it reads my blog. "The CSS working group is irrelevant back in March. Google host the CSS working group for a three day meeting." |
| 23:02 | <webben> | Hixie: if you want more differentiation between elements try the web-rent-a-crowd scheme |
| 23:02 | <webben> | (or turning on more announcements if you prefer that to voice changes) |
| 23:02 | <Hixie> | hm? |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | "web-rent-a-crowd? |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | " |
| 23:03 | <webben> | Hixie: Yeah ... this is why it grates that FS don't provide docs in HTML format |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | what's "web-rent-a-crowd"? |
| 23:03 | <webben> | Hixie: JAWS has various schemes for how it reads things. Web RentACrowd is one of them. |
| 23:03 | <Hixie> | where do i find that? |
| 23:03 | <webben> | basically different elements are read in different voices |
| 23:03 | <webben> | hang on |
| 23:04 | <webben> | Hixie: I happen to have instructions here: http://www.benjaminhawkeslewis.com/www/accessibility/q-element/q-and-screen-readers#jaws |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | cool |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | holy jesus this is the least usable configuration system i've ever used |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | maybe excluding .emacs |
| 23:06 | <webben> | Hixie: Well it is like emacs in that a lot of it will be accessed by keyboard shortcuts |
| 23:07 | <webben> | I think the shortcuts can be faster than navigating through one config window after another |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | i meant ".emacs" |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | as in the .emacs configuration file |
| 23:07 | <webben> | oh i see |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | i have no idea what most of these settings mean |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | Text Block Length: [ 25 ] |
| 23:07 | <webben> | Hixie: Ah I know that one. |
| 23:08 | <webben> | Hixie: Basically, JAWS offers a facility for skipping over grouped links. |
| 23:08 | <webben> | by looking for text that is not a link and is a certain length |
| 23:08 | <webben> | I think that's what it means |
| 23:08 | <webben> | 25 is (probably) characters |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | yeah i worked it out from the help screen |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | but that's still horrendous ui |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | that option shouldn't exist |
| 23:11 | <webben> | Hixie: Other than their failure to put it online in a form where you can refer people to it, FS's documentation is actually not too bad. I've just been trying to deal with Dolphin's documentation to see if it's at all possible to get HAL to do something with longdesc, but their manual is kinda hopeless. |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | their documentation is ok, yeah |
| 23:11 | <Hixie> | their actual ui is horrid |
| 23:11 | <webben> | You'll get like a configuration dialog full of cryptic options, and the help will be a confusing summary of what the window is for, rather than a breakdown of the different options. |
| 23:12 | <webben> | Hixie: In all fairness, the UI is inevitably going to be fairly complex. |
| 23:12 | webben | is trying to design part of the UI for Orca atm; it's non-simple. |
| 23:12 | <Hixie> | why? |
| 23:13 | <webben> | Hixie: Partly because people have very different software, very different needs, and very different preferences. |
| 23:13 | <webben> | (e.g. different synths/voices capable of different things, different combinations of braille/speech use, differing ideas about verbosity) |
| 23:13 | <Hixie> | that doesn't explain why the user can decide how many characters to look for when skipping to the next non-link |
| 23:13 | <webben> | and want different things at different times. |
| 23:14 | <webben> | Hixie: It's possible that can be set on a site-by-site basis. |
| 23:14 | <webben> | where it might well be useful |
| 23:15 | <Hixie> | well rent-a-crowd worked, but it's buggy as hell |
| 23:15 | <webben> | buggy? |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | e.g. (<a href="">Foo</a>) reads as (voices denoted by case): "left paren VISITED FOO RIGHT PAREN" |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | wrong voice for the right paren |
| 23:16 | <Hixie> | also, it's still horrible to use |
| 23:16 | <webben> | hmm |
| 23:16 | <webben> | Hixie: If you have a licenced copy, you could submit them a test-case for that. |
| 23:17 | <webben> | (They'll prove ultimately unhelpful if you're just using an evaluation version.) |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | when you're reading a book to someone (e.g. an audio book) you don't say "heading" before every heading |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | i have a licensed copy |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | thanks to google |
| 23:17 | <webben> | cool :) |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | where's the bug database? |
| 23:17 | <webben> | Hixie: You have to email technical support. Like Opera. |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | i have an opera bug system account |
| 23:17 | <Hixie> | and opera's bug system has a public facing bug entry page, too, for those who don't |
| 23:18 | <webben> | hmm IIRC FS just have email |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | who the hell says "left paren" "right paren" all the time, christ |
| 23:18 | <Hixie> | i'm going to go batty using this |
| 23:19 | <webben> | http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_about/Contact_Us_Form.asp?Mail_Subject=Support |
| 23:19 | <webben> | Hixie: you need to reduce your verbosity settings for punctuation |
| 23:19 | <webben> | Hixie: most SR users do; then they increase it temporarily when they need it for something |
| 23:19 | <webben> | (e.g. coding) |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | do i want SAPI5 or not? |
| 23:20 | <webben> | Hixie: I'm not an expert on voices; this is another thing where people have preferences; supposedly Eloquence is quite good. |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | that's what i'm using |
| 23:20 | <Hixie> | it's not SAPI5 |
| 23:20 | <webben> | no SAPI5 is the Microsoft voices |
| 23:21 | <webben> | like Sam |
| 23:21 | <webben> | (or at least SAPI5 is the MS synth and comes with some MS voices) |
| 23:21 | <webben> | i think other companies also produce other SAPI5 voices |
| 23:21 | <Hixie> | yeah i have a bunch apparently |
| 23:22 | <webben> | people tend to assume that SR users want naturalistic voices; but since many of them speed them up so that they are almost unrecognizable to the untrained ear that's not necessarily true |
| 23:22 | <Hixie> | oh thank god, i've found how to kill the punctuation |
| 23:23 | <webben> | Hixie: what version are you using btw? |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | why does it keep saying "graphic" before <img> elements with alt="" text, grr |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | 8.0 |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | just got it last week |
| 23:24 | <webben> | Hixie: are they inside links? |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 23:24 | <webben> | Hixie: Yeah, there's been quite a lot of criticism of 8.0's stability on the lists. |
| 23:24 | <Hixie> | though it doesn't say _that_ |
| 23:24 | <webben> | Hixie: are they the sole content of the links? |
| 23:25 | <Hixie> | e.g. the ? icon at the top of the html5 spec |
| 23:26 | <webben> | Hixie: that has alt="WHATWG" |
| 23:26 | <webben> | oh I see you mean alt text not alt="" |
| 23:27 | <Hixie> | right |
| 23:27 | <webben> | yeah that's normal |
| 23:27 | <webben> | you can probably turn it off |
| 23:27 | <webben> | but it can be useful to know things are an image |
| 23:27 | <Hixie> | wow, it screws up the rendering of the <dl> at the top of hte spec, too |
| 23:27 | <webben> | yeah dl dd dt supposedly don't work too well in JAWS ... I've never tested that though |
| 23:28 | <webben> | would be interesting to see what IE does with them in MSAA though |
| 23:28 | <Hixie> | brb going to my office |