| 10:18 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: nitpick about the "About the Validation Service" page: "fantasai and me" — me should be myself |
| 10:23 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: are you sure? suppose "by" was used with a third person, it would be "him" or "her", right? |
| 10:24 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: I'm sure. I have no idea what the rule is, but me is most certainly wrong |
| 10:25 | gsnedders | is now looking up OXM |
| 10:27 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: http://www.writing911.com/database/idx/8/040/Common-Grammar-Questions/article/Me-Myself-and-I-Whats-the-Difference.html |
| 10:27 | <hsivonen> | "If it works with him, use me. If the word follows a preposition (words like by, after, as, at, for, in, like, with, etc.), choose me." |
| 10:28 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: myself is reflexive. |
| 10:28 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: you wrote it yourself. |
| 10:29 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: [It was] written by fantasai and me. |
| 10:29 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: it's the same person doing the action. |
| 10:29 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: thus, you use the reflexive |
| 10:31 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: unfortunately, I'm not trusting your advice on this without a grammatical reference work that specifically calls for "by myself" |
| 10:31 | <hsivonen> | because, my grammar sense says "me", the above reference says "me" and googlefight says "me": http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22by+me%22&word2=%22by+myself%22 |
| 10:32 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: I sadly can't find anything in the OSM about it when to use both (though that'll mainly be due to it being grammatical, and not stylistic) |
| 10:33 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: "by me" is fine in some contexts, though. in more contexts, probably, which is why there are more google hits for it |
| 10:34 | <hsivonen> | I tried to look this up in the Chicago Manual of Style, but I couldn't figure the right name for the concept to find it in the index |
| 10:41 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: and I've just forgotten the quote of what the OED said |
| 10:41 | gsnedders | runs back downstairs |
| 10:43 | <hsivonen> | http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22written+by+me%22&word2=%22written+by+myself%22 |
| 10:44 | <gsnedders> | 3. Subsituted for me on a object govered by a proposition |
| 10:44 | <gsnedders> | 5. As a direct or indirect object, in acc. or inf. const., or dependant on a proposition |
| 10:44 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: two OED definitions of myself |
| 10:45 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: in both cases, use of me is archaic |
| 10:46 | <gsnedders> | s/proposition/preposition |
| 10:47 | <hsivonen> | hmm. I still doubt that "me" was wrong in the agent case |
| 10:47 | <hsivonen> | As far as I can tell, "by myself" means something different as in the Céline Dion song |
| 10:48 | <gsnedders> | "Written by myself" is the same as the colloquial "Written by me" |
| 10:48 | <gsnedders> | (though the OED notes the latter as archaic) |
| 10:49 | <othermaciej> | that's not how I would interpret "written by myself" |
| 10:50 | <othermaciej> | I think most native English speakers (at least US English) would interpret that as "written by me alone, without any help or collaboration from anyone else" |
| 10:50 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: I read "by myself" as "alone" as in the above-mentioned Céline Dion song |
| 10:51 | <gsnedders> | I as a native English speaker would agree in that case with the third definition in the OED of myself |
| 10:52 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: given what othermaciej said, I think I rather risk being colloquial than give the impression that I acted alone |
| 10:53 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: I already get that impression from me |
| 10:53 | <gsnedders> | (well, you and fantasai) |
| 10:55 | <othermaciej> | what's the sentence you're trying to adjust? |
| 10:55 | <hsivonen> | gsnedders: I'm sorry if I'm wrong and thick here, but I still find the reference I cited more plausible |
| 10:56 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: "Written by fantasai and me." |
| 10:56 | <othermaciej> | that sounds grammatically right to me |
| 10:56 | <hsivonen> | (not that I'd go against the OED, but I am not convinced the OED means this case) |
| 11:00 | <othermaciej> | the object of a preposition should almost always be "me", not "myself" |
| 11:03 | <othermaciej> | http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myself has some notes |
| 11:17 | <hsivonen> | does IE7 put the attribute foo="bar" in the DOM in this case: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C/br%20foo%3Dbar%3E |
| 11:17 | <hsivonen> | Opera does |
| 11:18 | <hsivonen> | even with doctype http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C%21DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3C/br%20foo%3Dbar%3E |