| 00:17 | <Hixie> | Robert Burns and I interpret XHTML2 and related issues in rather dramatically different ways. |
| 00:24 | <Hixie> | man, some people are taking this stuff way too seriously |
| 00:24 | <Hixie> | lighten up people, it's only a markup language |
| 01:01 | <Hixie> | blimey, what's with the obsession with xhtml |
| 01:01 | <Hixie> | didn't we already establish that was a waste of time? |
| 01:04 | <zcorpan_> | no, it's the future and the answer to all problems :) |
| 01:04 | <Hixie> | sheesh |
| 01:05 | Hixie | couldn't care less about which syntax people use |
| 01:05 | <Hixie> | but really |
| 01:05 | <Hixie> | arguing about what the syntax should be is a waste of time |
| 01:05 | <Hixie> | since it's not going to change |
| 01:10 | <grimboy> | semantics > syntax |
| 01:28 | <kingryan> | grimboy: don't you mean "semantics > syntax"? |
| 01:29 | <grimboy> | Heh |
| 06:48 | <Hixie> | robert burns has too much free time |
| 06:48 | <Hixie> | i swear he accounts for like half the volume to public-html |
| 06:49 | <Hixie> | and his e-mails are rarely short |
| 06:49 | <Hixie> | i don't really know if his posts are especially good, because my eyes start to glaze over when i get to an e-mail from him, because subconsciously i realise that i can get through the mail much faster if i just skip his |
| 06:50 | <Hixie> | i need to read them more carefully |
| 06:52 | <othermaciej> | he is not so clueless that you could immediately dismiss him, but his understanding of many issues seems murky |
| 06:53 | <karlUshi> | http://www.robburns.com/ |
| 07:30 | <Hixie> | wow, some people really have trouble with namespaces |
| 07:31 | <Hixie> | at least one of these threads has a number of people repeatedly misreading what I thought was a pretty simple statement about namespaces |
| 08:10 | <Hixie> | http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=253027&threshold=-1&commentsort=3&mode=nested&pid=20064769 |
| 08:10 | <Hixie> | slashdot is weird |
| 08:10 | <Hixie> | (me and zcorpan trying to explain something to someone commenting there) |
| 08:39 | <MikeSmith> | slashdot is hopeless |
| 08:41 | <MikeSmith> | except for the entertainment value provided by some people who post there |
| 08:41 | <MikeSmith> | much of which entertainment is unintended on the part of the people posting there |
| 08:43 | <karlUshi> | what is the color of Henri IV's white horse? (translated from French say for children) cf "slashdot is weird" |
| 09:51 | <annevk> | Hixie, I thought it did |
| 09:52 | <annevk> | Seems I was wrong: http://www.google.com/search?q=msdn+draggable |
| 09:52 | <annevk> | (that's not a testcase, but it comes pretty close...) |
| 14:08 | <Xsss4hell> | Do you have recommendations related to css typography and layouts? |
| 14:10 | <annevk> | you probably want something like #css |
| 14:12 | <Xsss4hell> | haha I'm already in that chanell ^^ |
| 14:12 | <Xsss4hell> | And I'm pretty good with css |
| 14:12 | <Xsss4hell> | But I'm open to learn new things |
| 14:13 | <annevk> | from http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#scope "The scope of this specification does not include addressing presentation concerns (although default rendering rules for Web browsers are included at the end of this specification)." |
| 14:14 | <Xsss4hell> | Isn't WHATWG a consortion that heps standards that were left alone by W3C. So that's why I'm here, to learn.. |
| 14:14 | <annevk> | well, we're working together with the W3C again |
| 14:14 | <annevk> | s/again/now/ |
| 14:15 | <annevk> | currently "we"'re not doing anything related to typography or layouts |
| 14:15 | <annevk> | just HTML, APIs, etc. |
| 14:15 | <Xsss4hell> | I know you're defining new standards |
| 14:18 | <annevk> | well, then I'm not sure how I can help you :) |
| 14:21 | <Xsss4hell> | OK, I've once tried an aplha of XHTML2, it was pretty powerful, but it power was just limited to things that were intended to preset in the preview, it was a closed preview, or it was very hard to find any information about it, I don't know. But can you tell me any news related to XHTML2, can I start websites with it now? I mean is the draft finished but just needs approvement by the w3c, or is it not ready yet. |
| 14:23 | <annevk> | We're not working on XHTML2 |
| 14:23 | <Xsss4hell> | only HTML5? |
| 14:23 | <Xsss4hell> | hmm.. |
| 14:24 | <Xsss4hell> | so why XHTML2 and HTML5? I don't understand |
| 14:24 | <annevk> | yes, see http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#relationship0 |
| 14:25 | <zcorpan> | http://blog.whatwg.org/faq/#why-html5-xhtml2 |
| 14:36 | <Xsss4hell> | ok I've read it all |
| 14:38 | <Xsss4hell> | I just hope, microsoft doesn't buy html5. |
| 14:40 | <annevk> | ? |
| 14:40 | <Xsss4hell> | oh http://webforms2.org/ is still down |
| 14:40 | <Xsss4hell> | somebody informed the site owner? |
| 14:44 | <Xsss4hell> | I want to use webform2, but they're offline. aarrrgh http://webforms2.org/ |
| 14:44 | <Xsss4hell> | since 2days or more.. |
| 14:44 | <Xsss4hell> | a w3c site |
| 14:45 | <Philip`> | webforms2.org doesn't seem to have ever existed |
| 14:46 | <Philip`> | Oh, maybe it did, but Google's not very good at finding it |
| 14:46 | <zcorpan> | Xsss4hell: what did you expect to find at webforms2.org? |
| 14:47 | <annevk> | Philip`, http://whois.domaintools.com/webforms2.org |
| 14:47 | <annevk> | It most certainly existed |
| 14:47 | <mpt> | Xsss4hell, it's probably impossible for Microsoft to "buy" html5 |
| 14:48 | <Philip`> | http://web.archive.org/web/20070125014928/http://webforms2.org/ - it doesn't seem to have existed in terms of having actual content |
| 14:48 | <Xsss4hell> | I just wanted to use webforms2 on my websites with all browsers that support it, and serve other browsers an alternative |
| 14:49 | <zcorpan> | was it this? http://sourceforge.net/projects/wf2/ |
| 14:49 | <Xsss4hell> | so before..I use it: webforms2 or xforms?? |
| 14:49 | <mpt> | Xsss4hell, you may be looking for http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/ |
| 14:50 | <Xsss4hell> | Thanks for your help :) |
| 14:51 | <annevk> | zcorpan, a frontpage for that I believe, yes |
| 14:51 | <Xsss4hell> | omg (2005-09-28 13:08) |
| 14:51 | <Philip`> | Oh, it did have content once - http://web.archive.org/web/20070327030455/http://webforms2.org/download/wf2_0_1.zip |
| 14:51 | <Xsss4hell> | yes, it is the frontpage for weforms2.org |
| 14:52 | <annevk> | Xsss4hell, Web Forms 2 has been stable for quite some time, but it has had bug fixes since that date (latest is October 2006), eventually it will be integrated into HTML5 |
| 14:53 | <Xsss4hell> | oh, so I don't need to use it until 2022? |
| 14:53 | <Xsss4hell> | oh my.. |
| 14:54 | <annevk> | ?? |
| 14:55 | <Xsss4hell> | the docs say html5 will be ready earlier but we expect it getting fully supported or whatever in ~2022 |
| 14:56 | <zcorpan> | Xsss4hell: html4 is not interoperably implemented. css level 2 is not interoperably implemented. can you use those today anyway? |
| 14:56 | <Xsss4hell> | yes I can, with lotta hacks and quirks. until then 20.000 test nees to be written an passsed, they say |
| 14:57 | <annevk> | prolly more |
| 14:58 | <zcorpan> | Xsss4hell: yeah. so you can use new features in html5 as they get implemented (although they may well have some bugs initially) |
| 14:59 | <Xsss4hell> | What I find is kinda weird is that the us military already have a working prototype of a new web-protocol that is thousand times faster then http and compresses so good that you can get some gb/s with a normal broadband cable connection.. |
| 15:00 | <zcorpan> | that's cool |
| 15:00 | <Xsss4hell> | and thats old news..^^ |
| 15:00 | <Xsss4hell> | they've things oh lord... |
| 15:02 | <Xsss4hell> | u know that there is already a cpu with 16cores and two 10gb/s lanes for network? It was a military chip producer, until they got dissmissed due to better concurennce |
| 15:02 | <Xsss4hell> | now they make high-end pc parts |
| 15:04 | <Xsss4hell> | Where to find practical examples of HTML5, with and without webforms or xforms or whatever =) |
| 15:05 | <zcorpan> | http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/improve-your-forms-using-html5/ |
| 15:05 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/presentations/html5-geekmeet.en |
| 15:06 | <zcorpan> | http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/html/suggest/ |
| 15:12 | <Xsss4hell> | thaaaaaaaaaanks |
| 17:21 | <zcorpan> | annevk: http://quuz.org/xml5/play?source=%3Cxml%3Afoo%3E |
| 17:21 | <zcorpan> | should be in the http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace namespace |
| 17:22 | <zcorpan> | similarly <xmlns:foo> |
| 17:23 | <zcorpan> | or wait |
| 17:24 | zcorpan | got unsure about xmlns |
| 17:25 | <zcorpan> | "Element names MUST NOT have the prefix xmlns." |
| 17:27 | <zcorpan> | well, as far as xml5 goes, the logical thing to do would be to just act as if it was declared, i.e. same as the xml prefix |
| 17:42 | <Philip`> | Is there any documentation on how IE handles XML-like tags outside of a <xml>? |
| 17:42 | <gsnedders> | I would hedge a bet at "no" |
| 17:43 | <zcorpan> | Philip`: define XML-like tags |
| 17:43 | <Philip`> | Tags with colons |
| 17:43 | <Philip`> | or I think ([a-zA-Z][^:>/\s]*):([^>/\s]+) in particular |
| 17:46 | <Philip`> | <x:y>...</x:y> makes an element with actual content, <x:y/> makes a void element, etc |
| 17:46 | <zcorpan> | i haven't seen documentation, but i've played with it a bit |
| 17:46 | <Philip`> | <x:y>a<x:z>b</x:y>c</x:y> does the usual non-tree thing |
| 17:46 | <Philip`> | Oops |
| 17:46 | <Philip`> | <x:y>a<x:z>b</x:y>c</x:z> |
| 17:46 | <zcorpan> | stray end tags are ignored |
| 17:46 | <zcorpan> | a start tag with a non-declared prefix implies a PI before it... or something |
| 17:46 | <zcorpan> | <?xml:namespace prefix = x /> |
| 17:46 | <zcorpan> | at least when getting innerHTML |
| 17:48 | <Philip`> | <html xmlns:x="foo">Test<x:y> gives innerHTML with <BODY>Test<?xml:namespace prefix = x ns = "foo" /><x:y></x:y></BODY> |
| 17:48 | <Philip`> | but only when the xmlns is on <html>, not any other element |
| 17:49 | <zcorpan> | ah indeed |
| 17:49 | <Philip`> | (though you can put in multiple <html> tags anywhere and it uses them all) |
| 17:50 | <zcorpan> | innerHTML will output the PI if the declarations are on the element itself or an ancestor |
| 17:51 | <zcorpan> | attributes are parsed the same way as on other tags |
| 17:52 | <zcorpan> | end tags can have attributes in the tokenizer (</x:x y=">">) |
| 18:00 | <Philip`> | document.namespaces gives an array of them, including explicit (via <html xmlns:x>) and implicit (via <x:y>) ones |
| 18:01 | <Philip`> | (The namespace object has properties name, urn, and tagNames except the last one just gives me "not implemented" errors) |
| 18:02 | <Philip`> | (and onreadystatechange and readyState (?!)) |
| 18:08 | <Philip`> | It's fun how MSDN is missing much of the information about these things, and much of the information that it does have is incorrect |
| 20:36 | <annevk> | Hixie, since you're online, the help-whatwg and implementors-whatwg archives are still not public |
| 20:50 | <Hixie> | fixed |
| 20:53 | <annevk> | cool |
| 21:09 | <annevk> | Interoperability is such a great thing: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/att-0002/offset-mess.htm |
| 21:10 | <othermaciej> | I wonder if Safari matches any of those |
| 21:10 | <annevk> | no access to Safari here, would be nice to have results |
| 21:11 | <othermaciej> | annevk: http://www.apple.com/safari/download/ |
| 21:11 | <annevk> | for Ubuntu? |
| 21:11 | <othermaciej> | did someone else do the IE7 tests? |
| 21:11 | <othermaciej> | I assumed you had Windows based on that |
| 21:11 | <annevk> | ah, I have some hack to run IE7 |
| 21:12 | <othermaciej> | or I can try it for you, but I don't know how to determine the table results from the test case that's referenced |
| 21:13 | <annevk> | check body or the html element; put the doc in quirks or standards and put lots of content in it (that causes a scrollbar) and few and observe the changes on the side |
| 21:13 | <annevk> | roughly |
| 21:18 | <annevk> | the main problem is deciding what is correct |
| 21:19 | <annevk> | as it will break stuff; in fact, it is already breaking stuff |
| 21:21 | <othermaciej> | I'm not smart enough to know offhand how to test whether <body> is getting the viewport height or ICB height or the max |
| 21:21 | <othermaciej> | if you point me to specific test cases to run I can report results |
| 21:22 | <annevk> | the viewport height of the box is roughly 256, you'll see it directly if body doesn't contain any content |
| 21:22 | <annevk> | say it's 256 without content and something larger than 256 with content that causes a scrollbar you know it's max |
| 21:22 | <annevk> | if it stays 256 it's vh |
| 21:23 | <annevk> | if it's some small without content and increments with new content it's icb |
| 21:23 | <othermaciej> | with the default contents of the test page |
| 21:23 | <othermaciej> | http://tc.labs.opera.com/tools/cssom/layout-dom-attributes |
| 21:23 | <othermaciej> | I have a height of 18 |
| 21:23 | <othermaciej> | for the div |
| 21:23 | <othermaciej> | body is 18/256/18 |
| 21:24 | <othermaciej> | html is 18/18/256 |
| 21:24 | <othermaciej> | if I take off the doctype entirely is that good enough to test quirks mode |
| 21:24 | <othermaciej> | ? |
| 21:24 | <annevk> | yeah |
| 21:24 | <othermaciej> | quirks div - 18/18/18 |
| 21:24 | <othermaciej> | quirks body - 18/256/18 |
| 21:25 | <othermaciej> | quirks html - 18/256/18 |
| 21:25 | <othermaciej> | er |
| 21:25 | <othermaciej> | wrong |
| 21:25 | <othermaciej> | quirks html is 18/18/256 |
| 21:25 | <othermaciej> | so there don't appear to be quirks/strict differences in webkit |
| 21:25 | <annevk> | put in lots of content that causes a scrollbar and test again? |
| 21:26 | <annevk> | (and are these results in testpage order or result page order?) |
| 21:27 | <othermaciej> | result page order |
| 21:27 | <othermaciej> | top to bottom |
| 21:27 | <othermaciej> | offsetHeight / scrollHeight / clientHeight |
| 21:30 | <othermaciej> | annevk: ok, I added enough content to make it scroll |
| 21:30 | <othermaciej> | standards mode div w/ scroll - 486/486/486 |
| 21:30 | <annevk> | then just do the same tests again and report the new results (<div> is not needed fwiw) |
| 21:30 | <mpt> | zcorpan, is <http://simon.html5.org/sandbox/html/suggest/>; supposed to work in any released browsers? |
| 21:30 | <othermaciej> | standards mode body w/ scroll - 486/486/486 |
| 21:31 | <othermaciej> | standards mode html w/ scroll - 486/486/256 |
| 21:31 | <othermaciej> | quirks mode is the same |
| 21:32 | <mpt> | zcorpan, never mind, I see it works in Opera :-) |
| 21:34 | <annevk> | so you guys didn't need any quirks standards mode differences... |
| 21:34 | <annevk> | interesting |
| 21:34 | <annevk> | othermaciej, this is WebKit from what day? |
| 21:38 | <othermaciej> | annevk: today |
| 21:40 | <othermaciej> | annevk: we certainly could be having compat issues due to our behavior - just none that have bubbled to the top of the fix pile |
| 21:41 | <annevk> | seems you guys have reverse engineered standards mode behavior in other browsers |
| 21:42 | <annevk> | I e-mailed a new version to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/ but it doesn't seem to have appeared just yet |
| 21:44 | <annevk> | hmm, maybe I did something wrong; oh well, if it's not there tomorrow I'll e-mail it again |
| 22:41 | kingryan | is working on bringing the ruby port of html5lib up to the current test suite |
| 22:53 | <kingryan> | a question about the html5lib test suite: |
| 22:54 | <kingryan> | anyone know what state the tokenizer should be in after the '2' in "<x x=1 x=2 X=3>" ? |
| 22:59 | <Philip`> | Just after the 2 it's still in the attribute value (unquoted) state, I think |
| 23:37 | <kingryan> | Philip`: yeah, you're right. I was looking for the wrong thing, though. :( |
| 23:57 | <kingryan> | anyone know if there's a way to browse the SVN changesets on code.google.com ? |
| 23:58 | <takkaria> | nope, there isn't |
| 23:58 | <takkaria> | the best you'll do is getting a local GUI client and browsing that logs/changes that way |