| 00:00 | takkaria | wonders how the mobile IE works on the real web |
| 00:01 | <hsivonen> | takkaria: what's the relationship to normal IE codebase-wise? |
| 00:01 | <Hixie> | on this page: |
| 00:01 | <Hixie> | http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/screen-readers/ |
| 00:02 | <Hixie> | it says "Index of /tests/adhoc/html/screen-readers" three times |
| 00:02 | <Hixie> | and says "eighty" twice (at the end of a line each time) |
| 00:02 | <Hixie> | why?!?! |
| 00:02 | <webben_> | it should say the first thing twice because it is in both title and h1 |
| 00:03 | <takkaria> | hsivonen: I have no idea. I'm getting a windows mobile smartphone tomorrow, though, so I guess I'll see how well it works then... |
| 00:03 | <takkaria> | I guess I can get opera mobile or whatever the portable mozilla browser's called though |
| 00:03 | <hsivonen> | http://www.lukew.com/resources/articles/PSactions.asp |
| 00:04 | <Hixie> | webben_: twice i would understand |
| 00:04 | <takkaria> | Hixie: 80? is that the width of the line or something? |
| 00:04 | <Hixie> | (though it's still retarded) |
| 00:04 | <Hixie> | takkaria: maybe? but why does it say it, even then?! |
| 00:05 | <webben_> | Hixie: What happens in Fox? |
| 00:05 | <karlUshi> | nah it is not 80, but "s'ti" in Quebecois. It means something like "geez" |
| 00:06 | <Hixie> | webben_: dunno, don't want to go through the pain of switching browsers yet! |
| 00:06 | <takkaria> | I think part of the problem of screenreaders for the web is that there isn't actually a web-specific screnreader |
| 00:06 | <takkaria> | one of those could do a much better job, I imagine |
| 00:07 | <webben_> | takkaria: There are. But there shouldn't be any need for such a thing. |
| 00:07 | <webben_> | takkaria: HTML is in a lot of different applications, don't forget, not just web browsers. |
| 00:07 | <webben_> | e.g. WebKit is used in Colloquy and Mail |
| 00:08 | <takkaria> | mm, true. but in applications it tends to be slightly different, since they're not browsers |
| 00:08 | <karlUshi> | plus the fact that navigating the web is not the only thing |
| 00:08 | <karlUshi> | you have to be able to use the desktop as large |
| 00:08 | <webben_> | and the process of transmuting HTML to a screen reader-navigable DOM is very similar to that for Word files and PDF files and everything |
| 00:09 | <webben_> | takkaria: There have been many attempts at providing dedicated browsers. But there are major advantages to using the same software as sighted peers. |
| 00:09 | <Hixie> | i tend to agree that there should be a dedicated speech browser rather than a screen reader, but that's a separate problem entirely |
| 00:09 | <takkaria> | fair enough. I can see that |
| 00:10 | <takkaria> | but if HTML5 works out, then I would imagine that a dedicated browser would be much easier than at present |
| 00:10 | <Hixie> | sure wish i knew why it kept saying "ninety eight percent" |
| 00:10 | <webben_> | Hixie: That's page load information. |
| 00:10 | <webben_> | i.e. how much of the page has loaded |
| 00:11 | <webben_> | Hixie: quite possibly that was your 80 earlier too |
| 00:11 | <Hixie> | no, IE is not doing anything |
| 00:11 | <Hixie> | maybe, though i doubt it, it happens in the same place on that page |
| 00:13 | karlUshi | would suggest hixie to learn with a blind user who is using a lot jaws. |
| 00:13 | <takkaria> | Hixie: are you IRCing on the same machine as the one you're using JAWS on? |
| 00:13 | <karlUshi> | each category of individuals develops skills with regards to software, and there is always a learning curve |
| 00:14 | <Hixie> | takkaria: no |
| 00:15 | <Hixie> | karlUshi: this is not software that should have a notable learning curve. the target audience includes the learning disabled. |
| 00:15 | <Hixie> | i seem to have entered some mouse-related reading mode |
| 00:15 | <Hixie> | maybe something to do with the cursor settings |
| 00:15 | <karlUshi> | cough cough :) wishful thinking :) |
| 00:16 | <webben_> | Hixie: Heh. So does Windows. :) |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | karlUshi: this is orders of magnitude harder than it needs to be |
| 00:16 | <Hixie> | i can't work out how to get this out of this strange mode |
| 00:16 | Hixie | logs out and back in agaain |
| 00:17 | <webben_> | Hixie: Have you played around with Window-Eyes yet? |
| 00:17 | <Hixie> | no |
| 00:17 | <webben_> | I've tended to find that less overwhelming than JAWS. |
| 00:17 | <karlUshi> | how do *you* know what *needs* to be, again look at my previous comment, spend time with a real user :) and identify the real problem. :) |
| 00:17 | <karlUshi> | moving to svgopen |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | webben_: ah |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | christ this weird ass mode followed my to the logon box |
| 00:19 | <Hixie> | it's only reading the stuff from the disabled dialog |
| 00:19 | <webben_> | Hixie: What happens in this mode exactly? |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | the dialog that's in front telling me my password is wrong is not reading it |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | s/it// |
| 00:20 | <takkaria> | hsivonen: that forms design post is very interesting, ta |
| 00:20 | <Hixie> | webben_: hard to describe |
| 00:21 | <Hixie> | so "say all" doesn't work in dialogs, i guess |
| 00:22 | <webben_> | I don't think it would |
| 00:22 | <Hixie> | i hit "say paragraph" and it says "blank" |
| 00:22 | <Hixie> | helpful, thanks jaws |
| 00:22 | <webben_> | Hixie: try just tabbing around? |
| 00:22 | <webben_> | (if this is a dialog) |
| 00:22 | <Hixie> | webben_: an alert dialog, i mean |
| 00:23 | <Hixie> | webben_: pressing tab just makes it say "tab". |
| 00:23 | <Hixie> | i can't get it to read me the message again |
| 00:23 | <webben_> | Hixie: try INSERT + B (read current window) |
| 00:24 | <Hixie> | wait, i've found the bug |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | (i'm in laptop mode, btw, so i use caps lock instead of insert) |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | caps lock Y dismisses the alert dialog without telling me |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | christ is that confusing |
| 00:25 | <webben_> | Hixie: ah okay. |
| 00:25 | <Hixie> | caps lock - b is a useful command, thanks |
| 00:26 | <webben_> | yw |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | i don't understand why caps lock - a isn't the same thing though |
| 00:26 | <Hixie> | why two commands? |
| 00:27 | <webben_> | Hixie: Judging from http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/JAWSkeystrokes.asp INSERT+A just reads the address bar |
| 00:27 | <Hixie> | capslock+a is say all in laptop mode |
| 00:28 | <webben_> | Hixie: I suspect say all is specific to buffers |
| 00:28 | <Hixie> | seems so |
| 00:28 | <webben_> | whereas in dialogs JAWS would be in some sort of mode that more closely follows MSAA |
| 00:28 | <webben_> | (like forms mode in webpages) |
| 00:30 | <webben_> | If you have a window which also has a document loaded into a buffer, I guess there is a logic in there being two different commands. |
| 00:32 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 00:47 | <Hixie> | ok, here's a test case for JAWS: http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/html/screen-readers/001.html |
| 00:52 | <webben_> | What's it reading wrong there? |
| 00:53 | <Hixie> | reads everything after "elephants" on the second line in the same voice as "elephants" |
| 00:53 | <webben_> | Hixie: This is with the Web Rent-A-Crowd scheme or something is it? |
| 00:54 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 00:57 | <webben_> | Hixie: what happens if you turn on announcements too? does it think there's more than one link there? |
| 00:59 | Hixie | hunts for announcements |
| 01:00 | <webben_> | Hixie: sorry, that's not necessarily the technical term |
| 01:01 | <webben_> | I just mean where it will say "unvisited link" or whatever before a link |
| 01:02 | <Hixie> | not sure how to enable that, but it does say "visited link" once on that page |
| 01:03 | <webben_> | well at least it only thinks there's one link |
| 01:03 | <webben_> | are you sure you've got the voices different enough that you'd be able to tell the difference? |
| 01:03 | <Hixie> | oh yes |
| 01:03 | <Hixie> | one is male and the other female |
| 01:03 | <webben_> | ah okay |
| 01:04 | <Hixie> | i love the way it reads the first line, too: |
| 01:06 | <Hixie> | "In the following text, only one word left paren the word. Quote elephants quote. Right paren! should be said like a link." |
| 01:06 | <Hixie> | though that depends on the synthesiser |
| 01:07 | <Hixie> | SAPI5 in particular seems to suck. |
| 01:36 | <Hixie> | weird, it'll read certain sentences differently when it's reading the paragraph vs reading just the sentence |
| 02:00 | <Hixie> | second screen reader test case: http://www.hixie.ch/tests/evil/screen-readers/002.html |
| 02:32 | <Hixie> | i'm amused by the alt text discussion |
| 02:32 | <Hixie> | the arguments are all about whether we should allow alt="" to be omitted |
| 02:32 | <Hixie> | the spec already requires alt="" |
| 02:41 | <om_food> | it does in some cases allow alt to be omitted |
| 02:41 | <othermaciej> | "In such cases, the alt attribute may be omitted" |
| 02:42 | <othermaciej> | allowing it to be omitted in some cases means conformance checkers can't report failure whenever it is missing |
| 02:42 | <othermaciej> | which may have some small effect at the margins |
| 02:42 | <othermaciej> | though whether that effect is good or bad is unclear |
| 02:43 | <Hixie> | iirc every case where it says may be omitted is followed by a should-level requirement that it be not omitted |
| 02:44 | <othermaciej> | well yes, it's (almost) always strongly encouraged, but it is not 100% mandated |
| 02:45 | <othermaciej> | I'm thinking that is probably ok, though it does make JAWS give worse-than-usual results in many cases apparently |
| 02:57 | <Lachy> | Oh no! people are asking for RDFa in HTML :-( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0120.html |
| 02:57 | <Lachy> | (btw, how did that sneak into the charter?) |
| 02:59 | <Lachy> | oh good, it says "whether it is also allowed in the classic HTML serialization ... is for the HTML WG to determine." |
| 02:59 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: it snuck in there is an example |
| 02:59 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: it used to be there as a feature to add |
| 02:59 | <hober> | fortunately, the charter doesn't require support for RDFa, but simply encourages a mechanism to support extension |
| 02:59 | <othermaciej> | "The HTML WG is encouraged to provide a mechanism to permit independently developed vocabularies *such as* Internationalization Tag Set (ITS), Ruby, and RDFa to be mixed into HTML documents" (emphasis mine) |
| 03:00 | <hober> | yay "such as" :) |
| 03:00 | <karlUshi> | rdfa++ |
| 03:01 | <Lachy> | karlUshi, I don't believe RDFa is good for anything, it's way too complex and overengineered |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | surely not |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | it uses namespaces, it must be good! |
| 03:02 | <karlUshi> | yes lachy, you put the key thing here "believe" |
| 03:02 | <Hixie> | it also uses RDF, and we all know that Web authors are rushing to author RDF and are only being stopped by lack of support in browsers |
| 03:02 | <karlUshi> | troll fest :) funny |
| 03:03 | karlUshi | is enjoying relax in a comfortable seat |
| 03:03 | <othermaciej> | RDF stands for RSS Data Format, right? |
| 03:03 | <Hixie> | hah |
| 03:03 | <karlUshi> | othermaciej: you could do better, Really Dat Fucked |
| 03:04 | othermaciej | is shocked at karlUshi's scandalous language |
| 03:05 | <karlUshi> | yes I know othermaciej but I'am applying your freedom of expression rule :) I'm just a robot |
| 03:05 | <Hixie> | i'm going to complain to DanC right now! |
| 03:05 | Hixie | ducks |
| 03:05 | <karlUshi> | you should |
| 03:06 | <Lachy> | oh, it also uses CURIEs. that's even better ;-) |
| 03:07 | <Hixie> | isn't that a measurement of radioactivity |
| 03:07 | <hober> | I'm trying to come up with something sufficiently righteously angry-sounding to say, but am laughing too hard to think of anything. |
| 03:07 | <karlUshi> | Lachy: to see through |
| 03:31 | <Lachy> | hey Hixie, how does your clipboard.cgi script work? Does it just save POSTed data to a text file and then send it back on GET requests? |
| 03:33 | <Lachy> | Hixie, can I get a copy of it to run on html5.lachy.id.au for my own tools? |
| 07:07 | <Hixie> | Lachy_: yes |
| 07:41 | <Hixie> | wow these videos are really interesting |
| 07:43 | <othermaciej> | what videos? |
| 07:44 | <Hixie> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0103.html |
| 07:45 | <othermaciej> | ah cool |
| 07:45 | <othermaciej> | yeah, actual user testing |
| 07:54 | <Hixie> | man this is so interesting |
| 07:55 | <Hixie> | in the first 10 minutes of the table video it seems the biggest problems are with a bug jaws has about colspan/rowspan |
| 07:55 | <Hixie> | also interesting with the budget table is that it's clear that the headers being read out are completely useless |
| 07:55 | <Hixie> | it's not reading the column header |
| 07:57 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: also, JAWS has pretty significant trouble with thousand separators that are commonplace |
| 07:59 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: yeah, the number handling is appalling in that instance |
| 07:59 | <Hixie> | notice he goes to the horrific configuration UI |
| 07:59 | <Hixie> | and does far better than I (a sighted user) did when I went there! |
| 08:00 | <Hixie> | i think that revenue table (http://www.wisc.edu/about/facts/budget.php#budgetRev) is an example of a table that is badly marked up with headers="" |
| 08:00 | <Hixie> | "source" shouldn't be on the headers="" list for the data cells |
| 08:00 | <Hixie> | and that table uses abbr="" in a really confusing way, too |
| 08:01 | <Hixie> | "amount state revenue source. 151.8 column 2" is not a useful way of showing that data. |
| 08:04 | <hsivonen> | Hixie: what would you do better (apart from striking "source" from the speech)? |
| 08:05 | <Hixie> | "source" is a header for first column, it shouldn't be given as a header for the data cells |
| 08:05 | <Hixie> | headers aren't transitive |
| 08:06 | <Hixie> | arguably the "state revenue" row shouldn't be a header for anything but the first column either |
| 08:06 | <Hixie> | though scope="" can't represent that while still keeping the row table-wide |
| 08:06 | <Hixie> | which is interesting |
| 08:07 | <hsivonen> | with VoiceOver, I found that due to lack of easy documentation and due to the aural UI features being undiscoverable without docs, it is really hard for a person who isn't a routine user to check if something works in a sane way |
| 08:07 | <Hixie> | i think you'd want that first data cell read out as "255.1 millions of dollars, general program appropriations, state revenue" |
| 08:08 | <Hixie> | second cell as "-1.7 percent change from previous year, general program appropriations, state revenue" |
| 08:09 | <Hixie> | though how you decide that the top header comes first, then the left header, then the sub-top header, i dunno |
| 08:09 | <Hixie> | on the next table you'd want it the other way around |
| 08:09 | <Hixie> | second data cell on http://broads-authority.gov.uk/boating/navigating/tide-tables.html you'd want to read out as "1.69 meters, high water, wednesday 5th, september" |
| 08:09 | <hsivonen> | I've only watched the first two videos so far |
| 08:10 | <hsivonen> | and I think they demonstrate that "row" and "column" aren't the real scopes but "right" and "down" |
| 08:14 | <Hixie> | yeah that's basically what html5 does |
| 08:15 | <Hixie> | (though it uses the row/column names) |
| 08:15 | <Hixie> | the federal bank table example is interesting, it's a table that uses scope but that shows jaws7 not supporting it |
| 08:15 | <Hixie> | it also shows that jaws has some heuristics to read out the first column even with no markup for it |
| 08:16 | <Hixie> | woah |
| 08:16 | <Hixie> | the immediate reaction to the first table with summary="" information is "i'm wondering how necessary is that." |
| 08:19 | <hsivonen> | also, it shows how the insistence on cultural variance in date and number formats is an accessibility problem |
| 08:21 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 08:21 | <Hixie> | go <time> |
| 08:21 | <Hixie> | not sure what to do about numbers |
| 08:21 | <Hixie> | <n> seems excessive and unlikely to be widely used |
| 08:21 | <Hixie> | i'd rather test the waters with <time> first |
| 08:21 | <hsivonen> | there's no way normal authors who are accustomed to type in Word would stop and mark up their numbers as numbers |
| 08:22 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 08:22 | <Hixie> | same could be said of dates though |
| 08:22 | <hsivonen> | I suppose having a comma, period or nbsp every three digits could match a heuristic pattern |
| 08:23 | <Hixie> | or apostrophe |
| 08:23 | <hsivonen> | but dealing with non-nbsp regular spaces would be hard |
| 08:23 | <othermaciej> | you could use lang to infer the likely number format |
| 08:24 | <hsivonen> | everything would be so much easier if all nationalistic vive la difference could be put aside here |
| 08:24 | <othermaciej> | or just try to recognize a bunch of widely used number formats |
| 08:24 | <othermaciej> | but I guess some are ambiguous |
| 08:24 | <othermaciej> | 1.001 - is that just over 1, or just over 1000? |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | you're not going to get france or the uk to change to 1,001 or 1.001 respectively |
| 08:25 | <Hixie> | (or vice versa) |
| 08:25 | <hsivonen> | othermaciej: to some extent yes. but there are a lot of people who use English together with ISO dates, SI units and 24 hour clock for international communications |
| 08:25 | <hsivonen> | (in fact, it annoys me that legacy English date-time stuff comes with the English UI language on many systems) |
| 08:27 | <hsivonen> | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1968 for instance |
| 08:27 | <othermaciej> | there's also wide disagreement on the right way to do quotation marks but that seems less of a practical problem |
| 08:28 | <hsivonen> | systems would benefit from a U.S. English plus metric/ISO "locale" |
| 08:35 | hsivonen | sighs at optimism about parsing text/html as XML |
| 08:35 | <Whiskey_M> | 'lo |
| 08:35 | <hsivonen> | back when Netscape decided not to sniff XMLness in text/html in Mozilla, O'Reilly was ill-formed |
| 08:36 | <Hixie> | wow the longdesc="" comments are really interesting too |
| 08:36 | <hsivonen> | good luck with others getting it right if the xml.com folks don't |
| 08:36 | <Hixie> | hsivonen: http://www.damowmow.com/playground/html-or-xml.html ! :-D |
| 08:53 | <Lachy> | wow, I didn't realise screen readers were sooo bad at reading out numbers! |
| 08:54 | <Lachy> | I would have expected it to read 278,000 as "two hundred and seventy eight thousand", not "two seven eight zero zero zero" |
| 08:55 | <Whiskey_M> | it changes dependent on the screen reader I believe (and version of the software), but in general they aren't great |
| 08:56 | <Lachy> | hmm. I guess. So is it a problem that screen readers should really solve, or do we need a number element? like <n>278,000</n> |
| 08:57 | <Lachy> | I wonder how they handle numbers written using with the use of ',' (separator) and '.' (decimal point) reversed |
| 08:58 | <hsivonen> | is it known how much http://www.nvda-project.org/ sucks/rocks compared to JAWS? |
| 08:59 | <Lachy> | cool, I didn't know there was an open source screen reader available. I wonder how mature it is |
| 09:00 | <Lachy> | well, I guess it's only version 0.5, so probably not very mature |
| 09:02 | <virtuelv> | Lachy: is <n>278,000</n> "two hundred and seventy eight, comma triple-zero" or "two hundred and seventy eight thousand"? |
| 09:02 | <Hixie> | lachy: as far as i can tell that's a jaws bug that the experienced jaws user hadn't seen before |
| 09:04 | <hsivonen> | interestingly, both nvda and orca are written in Python. I wonder if there's any cross-pollination |
| 09:04 | <Hixie> | http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/malware_biz.pdf is frightening |
| 09:07 | <Lachy> | virtuelv: it's 278 thousand |
| 09:08 | <Lachy> | there'd need to be a space after the comma (278, 000) if it was two hundred seventy eight, triple zero |
| 09:11 | <karlUshi> | virtuelv: it depends on your language |
| 09:11 | <karlUshi> | in French comma is the separator |
| 09:11 | <karlUshi> | for decimal |
| 09:16 | <Lachy> | Thanks Hixie, I've now got http://html5.lachy.id.au/clipboard running :-) |
| 09:18 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: what is it supposed to do? |
| 09:19 | <Lachy> | that's a clipboard, just like Hixie has for the Live DoM Viewer |
| 09:19 | <Lachy> | POST data to it to save or GET to retrieve |
| 09:19 | <Lachy> | I'm just adding the upload/download scripts to my other tools now |
| 09:20 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: the use case is not obvious to me |
| 09:22 | <Lachy> | it makes it easier to save data and then download it again in other browsers or on other computers |
| 09:22 | <Dashiva> | It's a pastebin, basically |
| 09:24 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: does it expect form POSTs or raw entity body POSTs? |
| 09:26 | <Hixie> | raw |
| 09:30 | <Hixie> | interesting, the power jaws user in question hadn't come across [D] links |
| 09:30 | <Lachy> | that's not too surprising. I rarely see them myself |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | his comments about a long _description_ being useless to him are interesting |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | (as opposed to a long discussion of the image) |
| 09:37 | <Hixie> | seems to me it would be better to just put the long discussion in the alt="", though. |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | there's a bug in JAWS' handling of newlines |
| 09:38 | <Hixie> | in attributes |
| 09:43 | <virtuelv> | Lachy: karlUshi was making my point for me. My question was largely a rhetorical one |
| 09:43 | <Hixie> | seems the summary and header_id videos are the same |
| 09:43 | <Hixie> | which is odd |
| 09:43 | <Hixie> | oh well |
| 09:43 | <Hixie> | i really should be in bed 3 hours ago |
| 09:43 | <Hixie> | bbl |
| 10:02 | <Lachy> | I've now implemented the clipboard scripts in http://html5.lachy.id.au/output and http://html5.lachy.id.au/content-sniffing/ so now you can share data between them easily |
| 10:08 | <hsivonen> | does someone remember off-hand if HTTP-methods should be compared case-sensitively or insensitively? |
| 10:08 | <hsivonen> | (on the HTTP server when examining incoming requests) |
| 10:11 | <hsivonen> | case-sensitive it is |
| 10:11 | <Lachy> | hsivonen: they're case sensitive and, I believe, all existing methods (GET, POST, etc.) should be uppercase |
| 10:23 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: yeah, thanks |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | is there a best practice for transferring long non-ASCII strings in HTTP headers? |
| 10:35 | <hsivonen> | or should I just steer clear and do something else? |
| 10:36 | <Lachy> | hmm. you could use %-encoding, but that's really only for URIs |
| 10:37 | <Lachy> | what are you trying to do? |
| 10:38 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: I'm considering whether I should allow validator parameters as HTTP headers as opposed to query string params in the POST Web service API |
| 10:38 | <Lachy> | what HTTP headers are you trying to use for that? |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: Content-Location for doc= |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: the others would have to be X-Foo-Or-Bar |
| 10:39 | <hsivonen> | the potentially non-ASCII value would be schema IRIs |
| 10:40 | <Lachy> | you might be better off just using a query string |
| 10:40 | <hsivonen> | which I could force to be URIs |
| 10:40 | <hsivonen> | well, let's see if I can get away with query string only |
| 10:45 | <Lachy> | if a query string doesn't meet your needs, you could also try POSTing JSON or XML or something n the request body |
| 10:46 | <hsivonen> | Lachy: that would be much worse |
| 10:46 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 11:15 | <hsivonen> | aargh. Form-based form upload with the servlet API is ridiculous |
| 11:15 | <hsivonen> | supporting raw entity body POST was super-simple, though |
| 11:20 | <hsivonen> | do browsers guarantee that multipart form submissions contain the fields in the order of the original form? |
| 11:20 | <Lachy> | yes, I think so |
| 11:24 | <hsivonen> | well, on a more positive note, perhaps Java developers will resist the new Web Forms 2.0 submission format less than developers using other languages as even multipart/form-data support isn't part of the platform API |
| 15:52 | <Lachy> | in Table5.wmv of those usability tests, we were told that the table uses axis="", but he never actually showed how or why that is actually useful for anything |
| 16:00 | <zcorpan> | indeed |
| 16:08 | <Lachy> | I like what the bind man says at the end of Longdesc_IDC.wmv, where he talks about how longdesc can be made more mainstream by making it useful to more people |
| 16:21 | <Lachy> | the [D] link example didn't look any more difficult for the user than the longdesc attributes did, which is interesting given the claims that it's a problem because it's not explicitly associated with the image |
| 16:34 | <Lachy> | oh, I spoke too soon. in the BoxModel video, [D] links are explained to him |
| 16:40 | gsnedders | wonders how to get an email to the majority of major browser vendors regarding HTTP response parsng |
| 16:53 | <Lachy> | gsnedders: you could ask people you know from each browser vendor to put you in contact with the appropriate people who work on HTTP stuff |
| 16:56 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: I don't really know anyone who works on either IE or FF, though |
| 16:57 | <Lachy> | gsnedders: maybe try Chris Wilson for IE |
| 16:58 | <Lachy> | and ask Hixie about Mozilla, he may know |
| 16:58 | <gsnedders> | Lachy: yeah, that what's I was thinking I would try — last time I tried Chris I never heard back, though |
| 17:00 | <zcorpan> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&component=Networking%3A+HTTP&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&bug_status=ASSIGNED&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=exact&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_con |
| 17:00 | <zcorpan> | l2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0= |
| 17:00 | <zcorpan> | ...might give a hint about who are working on http in moz |
| 17:00 | <gsnedders> | ah. true. I'd looked through public bug trackers for what I'm interested in, nothing about it, though |
| 19:06 | <Hixie> | gsnedders: feel free to mail whatwg⊙wo about it if you want to hit browser vendors in general |
| 19:14 | <gsnedders> | Hixie: thanks |
| 20:05 | <Philip`> | http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/09/svg-open-2007-day-2.html - "SVG as texture for 3D Canvas" - hmm, that's possibly interesting in terms of making 3D applications that don't need to download dozens of megabytes of bitmap textures |
| 20:55 | <Philip`> | http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/3d.html - hmm, Opera 9.5 beats 9.2 quite measurably, but it still seems no browser is adequate at vector/matrix calculations in JavaScript :-( |
| 20:56 | <Philip`> | (That code was originally in a toy language that got compiled to JVM bytecode, which was far faster - I think it did 30fps easily on a slower computer than what I'm using now) |
| 21:50 | <jgraham> | Hixie? |
| 21:50 | <Hixie> | hey |
| 21:52 | <jgraham> | You pinged. I don't know if I can use the private message thing on freenode without an account |
| 21:52 | <Hixie> | are you on another network? |
| 21:52 | <Hixie> | or jabber/aim/icq/msn? |
| 21:52 | <annevk> | just use irc.w3.org |
| 21:52 | jgraham | is somewhat communications poor |
| 21:53 | <virtuelv> | jgraham: you need to register on freenode |
| 21:54 | <jgraham> | Hixie: I think anne's suggestion should work |
| 21:54 | <othermaciej> | jgraham: you need to register, or the person you are talking to needs to set up their account to accept privmsgs from unregistered nicks |
| 21:54 | jgraham | goes to register on freenode |
| 21:55 | <virtuelv> | /msg NickServ help |
| 21:55 | <virtuelv> | ^^ for jgraham |
| 22:39 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: are you stalking me adding me on Flickr? :P |
| 22:40 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: you're the first person to add me from WHATWG, and I don't think we have any common friends at all :P |
| 22:40 | <jgraham> | gsnedders: Well if you will put photos on the internet, you can't expect people not to look... |
| 22:41 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: but look for photos by me? :P Twitter or my blog, I assume>? |
| 22:42 | <gsnedders> | jgraham: most people I've had add me I have explicitly pointed to my Flickr page, or know them well |
| 22:42 | <jgraham> | Er, I think I originally searched for your blog for some reason which I have forgotten. |
| 22:42 | <gsnedders> | heh |
| 22:43 | <gsnedders> | I think the only thing on my blog that links to it is photo of my sister + husband at their wedding |
| 22:43 | <jgraham> | Yeah but you're pretty much unique on google :) |
| 22:44 | <gsnedders> | wait, you mean that everything within the top 50 results being me makes me unique? :) |
| 22:45 | <gsnedders> | It's something absurd like that which is all me |
| 22:46 | <jgraham> | That would fit my definition of "pretty much unique", yeah. |
| 22:47 | <gsnedders> | here we go, result 59 isn't me |
| 22:47 | jgraham | is cursed/blessed with a much more common name |
| 22:47 | <gsnedders> | I'm not a pilot. |
| 22:48 | <jgraham> | <green-wing>Except on friends reunited</green-wing> |
| 22:49 | <Lachy> | jgraham, in python, what APIs are available for accessing the query string and post data of a request? I've looked at cgi.FieldStorage(), but AFAICT, it's only desiged for accessing name=value pairs and doesn't make it easy to get data in other formats |
| 22:49 | <gsnedders> | 59, and 82 are the only 2 results in the top 150 that aren't me |
| 22:50 | <jgraham> | Lachy: Have you tried httplib2? It's not in the standard-lib but I think it's what you want |
| 22:50 | <Lachy> | ok, I'll look it up |
| 22:50 | <jgraham> | http://code.google.com/p/httplib2/ |
| 22:51 | <Lachy> | it seems odd that that stuff isn't build into the language. like in PHP, I can do $_SERVER['QUERY_STRING'], etc. to get the raw data |
| 22:53 | <Philip`> | os.environ['QUERY_STRING']? |
| 22:53 | <jgraham> | Lachy: httplib is built in but httplib2 is supposed to be better |
| 22:54 | <jgraham> | Where builtin = standard-lib |
| 22:54 | <gsnedders> | ah well, I'm going, g'nite |
| 22:54 | <jgraham> | goodnight |
| 22:54 | <gsnedders> | I'll try to stay out of sweet shops, though, jgraham :) |
| 23:08 | <jgraham> | Lachy: Did you find what you wanted? |
| 23:08 | <Lachy> | I think so, os.environ gives me the query string from GET requests, and I think stdin will give me post data |
| 23:10 | <Lachy> | hmm. stdin didn't work for me |
| 23:13 | jgraham | wonders if there is a sane way of setting up python on dreamhost |
| 23:13 | <Lachy> | oh, it works. but not when I try to read stdin after I import cgi, which already reads it |
| 23:17 | <jgraham> | http://wordsandpictures.dyndns.org/tables/table_inspector.html now with "smart colspan" option |
| 23:18 | <annevk> | audio on ubuntu works again after a reboot |
| 23:18 | <annevk> | bizarre |
| 23:18 | <jgraham> | Er, I meant to link to the html5.org copy there |
| 23:18 | <annevk> | just like windows :) |
| 23:18 | <jgraham> | http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.html |
| 23:24 | <annevk> | "smart colspan" meaning I can omit scope= entirely on my table? |
| 23:25 | <annevk> | feature request: what you probably also want is a view where all algorithms are applied so you can easily see the differences for a single table; no real suggestions for the UI though |
| 23:54 | <jgraham> | annevk: "smart colspan" is what Ben Millard described on the list. It allows you to emit scope="" on your table entirely, yes. |
| 23:54 | <annevk> | awesome |
| 23:55 | <annevk> | I was thinking about that when I wrote the table |
| 23:55 | <jgraham> | I agree about the multiple algorithms thing; I think I can make it work technically but I'm not sure how to present it either |
| 23:55 | <annevk> | Now in theory the first column should maybe have scope=row for each row but I don't really like that. I'm not sure how to solve that issue |
| 23:56 | <annevk> | (Don't really like the typing.) |
| 23:56 | <annevk> | Making the table XML well-formed so I could enter it in my blog system was already a pain |
| 23:56 | <annevk> | I should probably have used html5lib or something... |
| 23:57 | <takkaria> | fwiw, mobile IE seems to render pages OK though is rather terrible at fitting things on-screen decently |
| 23:58 | <jgraham> | annevk: I think special casing rows or columns that are entirely heading cells to be like scope="column" or scope="row" respectively should work |
| 23:59 | <annevk> | the problem is that they're not headings |
| 23:59 | <annevk> | well, they're both (as HTML4 seems to allow) |