| 02:20 | <Hixie> | aa: yt? |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | i'm changing executeSql() to be async |
| 02:22 | <Hixie> | so you do executeSql('update scores set score=? where user=? and score < ?', score, user, score, function (result) { ... }); |
| 02:22 | <Hixie> | but what happens when an error occurs? |
| 02:23 | <Hixie> | should i call the callback anyway, just with an object representing an error? |
| 02:23 | <Hixie> | or should i dispatch an 'error' event to the database? |
| 02:23 | <Hixie> | i guess the former is better... |
| 02:23 | <om_sleep> | aa: did you see my email suggestion of how to change ResultSet, which proposes adding errorCode and errror fields? |
| 02:24 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: sorry, meant that for you |
| 02:24 | <Hixie> | assuming you're talking to me, yes, that's why i'm asking |
| 02:24 | <othermaciej> | letting the callback handle the error seems easier to work with |
| 02:24 | <Hixie> | j |
| 02:24 | <Hixie> | k, even |
| 02:24 | <othermaciej> | and you'd also want that for the sync version |
| 02:25 | <Hixie> | and i guess we just say that if you call executeSql() on the database while in a callback that went wrong, you raise an exception? |
| 02:25 | <Hixie> | since that probably indicates you didn't check for errors |
| 02:25 | <Hixie> | or do we just start a new transaction in that case |
| 02:26 | <othermaciej> | I'm not sure |
| 02:26 | <othermaciej> | are there any errors where it ever makes sense to continue the same transaction? |
| 02:26 | <othermaciej> | I'd guess probably not |
| 02:26 | <othermaciej> | so exception seems ok |
| 02:26 | <Hixie> | well you can't continue the same transaction |
| 02:26 | <Hixie> | since you've rolled back by then |
| 02:27 | <othermaciej> | that's true |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | but you could start a new one |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | if we raise an exception, which i think is the better thing to do for catching errors, it means that the only way to then do a new transaction as part of error handling is to have a timeout |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | to start a new "context" |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | which is ugly |
| 02:27 | <othermaciej> | continuing blindly seems like it could give bad results, on the other hand, the timeout thing to retry is ugly |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 02:27 | <Hixie> | exactly |
| 02:28 | <Hixie> | hard to know which is better |
| 02:28 | <othermaciej> | you could have a closeTransaction() method on Database |
| 02:28 | <Hixie> | could do |
| 02:28 | <othermaciej> | which isn't needed in the normal case, but could be used for retry in a callback |
| 02:28 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 02:28 | <Hixie> | ok |
| 02:28 | <Hixie> | will do that |
| 02:59 | <Hixie> | i suppose we really want the database version to be set as part of a transaction |
| 02:59 | <Hixie> | oh well |
| 03:00 | <Hixie> | i guess it doesn't matter |
| 03:01 | Hixie | thinks to himself... . o O ( the upgrading app can set it to a secret value while upgrading, then to the new version when done ) |
| 03:02 | <Hixie> | grr this is going to introduce all kinds of race conditions |
| 03:11 | <Hixie> | hm |
| 03:11 | <Hixie> | how do we handle a commit failing? |
| 03:12 | <Hixie> | we have no way to notify the app |
| 05:51 | <Lachy> | access keys don't seem to work in Opera 9.5 alpha, but they do in 9.2 |
| 05:53 | <Lachy> | pressign Shift+Esc on this page lists all the keys defined, but labels them poorly. http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/accesskey.html#ex |
| 05:54 | <Lachy> | <input ... accesskey="N"> shows up as: "(N) (Null)" in the menu |
| 05:54 | <Lachy> | ah, that's probably because there's no <label> for those controls |
| 05:57 | <Lachy> | no, makes no difference whether you define the accesskey on the input or label, it still lists (Null) |
| 06:40 | <om_sleep> | Lachy: seems like it will always use the "value" |
| 06:41 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: or title |
| 06:43 | <Lachy> | I see. That's not very useful |
| 06:44 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: it does seem like neither of those is suitable for a text field |
| 06:44 | <othermaciej> | but a keyboard shortcut to focus a specific text field seems a little silly in itself |
| 06:45 | <othermaciej> | anyway Opera is not really selling me on the potential of accesskey not sucking |
| 06:46 | <Lachy> | it's not that silly. It's common for Alt+(key) to focus controls in dialog boxes on Windows |
| 06:46 | <Lachy> | the key is typically underlined in the controls label |
| 06:48 | <othermaciej> | ok, "silly to me as a mac user" |
| 06:49 | <othermaciej> | I think even on windows you don't see that on text fields that aren't part of a dialog box |
| 06:49 | <Lachy> | yeah, Macs have a lot of bad UI design ;-) |
| 06:49 | <othermaciej> | that's what I've always heard |
| 06:50 | <othermaciej> | on mac it's pretty rare for a dialog to have more than a handful of items in the focus cycle so you just use tab |
| 06:51 | <Lachy> | well, Alt+D typically focuses the address bar in IE and Firefox, so it doesn't only occur in dialog boxes |
| 06:52 | <othermaciej> | on mac Cmd-L is the usual shortcut for that in browsers, but it's kind of an exception |
| 06:52 | <Lachy> | Ctrl+L also works in Firefox |
| 06:52 | <othermaciej> | (and it has a menu item, so it's a menu shortcut, not a focus shorcut; there's certainly no underlined letter) |
| 06:55 | <Lachy> | where's the menu item located for it? |
| 09:07 | <Lachy> | one of the problems with the accesskey discussion is that some people don't seem to understand how <command> and <menu> work in HTML5. Perhaps if someone clearly explained that it can be used for toolbar menus or context menus, much like native apps use. |
| 09:59 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: yeah, my original proposal assumed too much |
| 10:00 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: I mainly just wanted to jot down my idea somewhere that it wouldn't get lost |
| 10:01 | <othermaciej> | Lachy: btw Open Location... in the File menu is the menu item with Cmd-L as a shortcut, at least in Safari and Firefox on Mac |
| 10:03 | <Lachy> | ok |
| 10:53 | <hsivonen> | hmm. dev.w3.org is taking too long to respond. I hope my list reply wasn't silly given the current edit state of the principle doc (which I was unable to check) |
| 11:21 | <billyjack> | hsivonen - fwiw, your reply didn't seem silly at all to me |
| 11:21 | <billyjack> | if you're referring to the "HTML5 does *not* aim to be backwards compatible with HTML 4" one |
| 11:26 | <annevk> | hmm, why is the callback the last argument in executeSql... |
| 11:26 | <annevk> | it looks weird because of the arguments... in the middle |
| 11:32 | <annevk> | yeah, made sense to me too fwiw |
| 11:33 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: yeah, that was what I was referring to |
| 11:33 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: did you see my list of GNU error format issues? |
| 11:35 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_GNU_Output |
| 11:35 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - no, haven't seen it yet |
| 11:35 | MikeSmith | is looking now |
| 11:41 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - I agree about the tab issue (should count as one column); as far as UTF-8 in the message, I think there are likely many users in console envrionments who don't have UTF-8 support; as far as how to distinguish classes of messages, I think "Error; " and "Warning; " and "Note; " as a prefix in the message field |
| 11:41 | <MikeSmith> | The other questions I don't have any brilliant insights one |
| 11:41 | <MikeSmith> | on |
| 11:44 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: Do Emacs, etc., recognize Error: and Warning; labels? |
| 11:45 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: that is, if the aim is to make Emacs tell you that you don't have errors, will a Note: or Warning: line be counted as error? |
| 11:46 | annevk | reads posts on the alt attribute such as http://whatnitishknows.blogspot.com/2007/09/get-traffic-from-image-serach-engines.html |
| 11:46 | <annevk> | "Its the very sweet ‘alt’ attribute which most of us do not use in our Image tags because we want to save our time or mainly because we think its useless. The ‘alt’ attribute is very important to place while writing the tag code for your image as it servers another keyword targeting purpose for image search bot." |
| 11:46 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: my own use of emacs is *very* superficial, so the exact integration screnarios aren't at all clear to me |
| 11:46 | <annevk> | seems that SEO, not authoring tools, might help authors care :) |
| 11:47 | <hsivonen> | hendry: any insights on http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Validator.nu_GNU_Output from the vim perspective? |
| 11:49 | <MikeSmith> | hsivonen - I think the expectation is that users need to do a certain about of Emacs customization for each time of compiler/checker/whatever they want to be able to have Emacs parse error messages for |
| 11:49 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: ok |
| 11:50 | <MikeSmith> | some other apps, like Vim, have similar features; e.g.: |
| 11:50 | <MikeSmith> | http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ant-user/200101.mbox/%3C20010129173134.A24005⊙zo%3E |
| 11:50 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: should I try to keep the forward-compatible two-level taxonomy that I intend to use for XML and JSON? |
| 11:51 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: that is, should I do something like Error, Fatal: |
| 11:51 | <hsivonen> | so that forward-compatible script can extract "Error" when they see Error, Foobar: |
| 11:51 | <MikeSmith> | I would personally prefer that |
| 11:51 | <hsivonen> | MikeSmith: ok |
| 11:51 | <MikeSmith> | yeah |
| 11:58 | <hsivonen> | annevk: it is rather sad how much "blog" content these days is written by humans only to bait users to see Google Ads |
| 11:59 | <hsivonen> | annevk: check out tasks on mturk.com and you'll find that poor people can make a cent by participating in astroturfing schemes |
| 12:02 | <hsivonen> | mturk.com is already used for transcribing audio. I wonder if it'll be used for outsourcing alt text writing. |
| 12:09 | <annevk> | oh yeah, heard about that |
| 12:10 | <annevk> | I think marp suggested that something like that might work, but it doesn't really seem to scale to the amount of images that are hosted on Flickr for instance |
| 12:10 | <annevk> | or maybe it does... |
| 12:11 | annevk | wonders why role= needs namespaced extensibility |
| 12:15 | <hsivonen> | annevk: I'm not ethically comfortable with mturk. It feels exploitative. |
| 12:22 | annevk | reads an old Gecko bug where canvas.showFallback() is suggested |
| 12:23 | <annevk> | see https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=291216#c18 |
| 12:23 | <annevk> | other options: <canvas require-context="3d funky"> |
| 13:40 | <jwalden> | question: are there any URLs which can be used to link to specific versions of the HTML5 spec? |
| 13:40 | jwalden | has a feeling now may not be the best time to ask, PDT-wise |
| 13:40 | <krijnh> | jwalden: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/ |
| 13:41 | <jwalden> | krijnh: isn't that just the latest version? |
| 13:41 | <jwalden> | I think I really meant s/version/revision/ in my question, actually |
| 13:42 | <krijnh> | Ah, versions, my eyes told me you said sections |
| 13:42 | <krijnh> | Sorry :) |
| 13:42 | <jwalden> | fragment identifiers work for that anyway |
| 13:46 | <gsnedders> | jwalden: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/ (wherever HTML5 is under that, but it's down at the moment) |
| 13:46 | <jwalden> | heh |
| 14:45 | <hsivonen> | annevk: btw, regarding firehose photostreams and metadata, tantek's photostream is an interesting case study. no sets, no human-entered titles, but, yet, elaborate tagging |
| 14:46 | <hsivonen> | jgraham's Flickrs stream is very different |
| 14:46 | <hsivonen> | people use these tools very differently |
| 16:36 | <Lachy_> | does anyone know where the command attribute is defined? It's mentioned once, but doesn't seem to be defined anywhere http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-icon |
| 16:43 | <Dashiva> | That paragraph could probably do with significant rewriting |
| 16:46 | <Lachy_> | yeah, probably. But I believe the intention is that one can do, e.g. <input type=button command=foo> pointing to <command id=foo ...>, and then the input (and any other elements that reference it) get included in that command elements .triggers DOM attribute. |
| 16:46 | <Lachy_> | and when one activates that input, the associated command is triggered. |
| 16:47 | <Dashiva> | Sounds sensible |
| 17:14 | <jgraham_> | Lachy: As far as I can tell, it isn't |
| 18:33 | <Hixie> | othermaciej: i love that you commented only on the part of hte Database APIs that i hadn't changed at all yet |
| 18:36 | <Hixie> | and apparently the spec is confuding, but right now you only get a transaction if you call executeSql from within a callback |
| 18:36 | <Hixie> | exactly as originaly suggested :- |
| 19:29 | <annevk> | hsivonen, "firehose photostreams"? :) |
| 19:41 | <hsivonen> | annevk: the kind of photostreams that contain lots and lots of photos. more than what you'd want to type in titles or alternative text for |
| 20:22 | <hsivonen> | are there any video sharing sites that output Ogg these days? |
| 20:26 | <Philip`> | There's http://blog.blip.tv/blog/2006/05/31/introduction-ogg-theora-support/ |
| 20:29 | <Philip`> | Looks like they only offer FLV and the original source version for most videos, though |
| 20:31 | <Philip`> | but there is e.g. http://blip.tv/file/340551/ with http://blip.tv/file/get/Anvazher-PruebaVideo318.ogg |
| 20:31 | <Philip`> | (but the applet doesn't work for me - first it crashed the browser, now it just shows a black box) |
| 20:33 | <gsnedders> | hsivonen: Wikipedia uses ogg, but that isn't really a video sharing site. probably the biggest, though |
| 20:51 | <Dashiva> | Are the people arguing for merging ul, ol, nl, etc into a single element really serious? |
| 20:59 | <gsnedders> | Dashiva: I expect so |
| 21:12 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: I just registered to blip.tv and uploaded a file. the only format they autogenerate is .flv |
| 21:12 | <hsivonen> | which isn't cool. Apparantly, if I want .ogg or .mp4 I need to generate those myself and upload |
| 21:13 | <hsivonen> | which means that blip.tv doesn't really solve the boring and hard part of Web video |
| 21:52 | jgraham | notes that even though his flickr stream is not a firehose writing good alternative text has an unfavourable opportunity cost |
| 21:53 | <jgraham> | Because the two groups of people I care about viewing the content are: my friends and family (who are all presently sighted) for the purposes of documentary and random strangers for any aesthetic value the pictures might have |
| 21:55 | <jgraham> | So the only reason to write descriptions now would be so that the descriptions were available should they be needed by any member of the first group in the future |
| 21:56 | <jgraham> | However I don't think the content is valuable enough to spend the time writing descriptions rather than, say, processing more photos |
| 21:58 | jgraham | wonders if he will be called anti-accessibility now |
| 22:00 | <Dashiva> | There are two groups of those, the "lazy" ones and the "evil" ones |
| 22:00 | <Dashiva> | Most of us fall into the lazy group |
| 22:05 | <jgraham> | But part of "laziness" is opportunity cost; e.g. the opportunity cost of writing descriptions for photos is that I have less time to spend on producing more photos. The second activity has a small, identifiable, audience (my friends and family), the first has a, presumably smaller, unknown audience |
| 22:06 | <jgraham> | Of course the situation would be entirely different if I were producing content with a different audience. A government site should have useful alternative text for all non-decorative images |
| 22:06 | <jgraham> | (for example) |
| 22:08 | <Dashiva> | Yeah, that's why it's not evil. You aren't doing it to hurt accessibility, it's just a side effect |
| 22:09 | <Dashiva> | But objectively, accessibility suffers |
| 22:10 | <jgraham> | Sure. |
| 23:32 | <Philip`> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cbody%20onload%3Dw(document.getElementById('i').width)%3E%0D%0A%3Cimg%20id%3Di%20src%3Dimage%20style%3Dmax-width%3A1em%20width%3D100%3E |
| 23:32 | <Philip`> | IE7 makes the DOM controlled by CSS |
| 23:33 | <Philip`> | (Opera and Firefox return different things from .width, too) |
| 23:39 | Philip` | changes his code so it calculates image sizes on the server then outputs <img _width=...> so the client side can recover the real width, which seems totally horrible |