| 00:52 | <jruderman> | Hixie: is bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=400307 a dup of a bug you know about? |
| 00:52 | <Hixie> | not off-hand |
| 00:52 | <Hixie> | but it sounds familiar |
| 00:52 | <jruderman> | it sounds a lot like something you mentioned in a blog post, but i couldn't find a bug report about the issue easily |
| 00:52 | <Hixie> | oh it's definitely known |
| 00:52 | <Hixie> | but i don't know if it's filed |
| 00:53 | <jruderman> | ok |
| 00:53 | Hixie | finds it silly when people say "We're also greatly interested in making our content accessible, to meet Section 508 requirements." |
| 00:53 | <jruderman> | thanks |
| 00:53 | <Hixie> | how about making your content accessible SO THAT PEOPLE CAN USE IT |
| 00:53 | <jruderman> | hehe |
| 00:53 | <Hixie> | instead of doing it to satisfy the law? |
| 00:53 | <jacobolus> | isn't <a><div>...</div></a> considered illegal by the w3c validator? |
| 00:54 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 00:54 | <Hixie> | it's not valid html |
| 00:54 | <Hixie> | still common though |
| 00:54 | <jacobolus> | right. I think it's quite useful :) |
| 00:54 | <jacobolus> | and was agitating on here at some point for it to be added as valid html5 :) |
| 00:54 | <jruderman> | just because it's invalid doesn't mean firefox is allowed to take packet boundaries into account when parsing it ;) |
| 00:55 | <Hixie> | jacobolus: yeah |
| 00:55 | <jacobolus> | jruderman: sorry, i'm referring to the properly nested version |
| 00:55 | <jacobolus> | jruderman: which is still invalid html 4.01 |
| 00:55 | <Hixie> | jruderman: actually per html4, it does |
| 00:55 | <Hixie> | jruderman: per html5 it doesn't though |
| 00:55 | <jacobolus> | jruderman: the badly-nested one is invalid either way, but I agree that it shouldn't depend on packet boundaries :) |
| 00:56 | <jruderman> | Hixie: why, because html4 doesn't say enough about user agents to distinguish a desk with quotes written on it from a web browser? |
| 00:56 | <jacobolus> | lol |
| 00:56 | <jruderman> | jacobolus: what do you mean by "properly nested"? |
| 00:56 | <Hixie> | jruderman: no, because html4 doesn't say what to do in error cases |
| 00:56 | <jruderman> | jacobolus: i'm talking about <a><div>...</div></a> |
| 00:57 | <jacobolus> | jruderman: oh whoops, sorry i'm confused |
| 01:00 | <jacobolus> | jruderman: that's odd that firefox breaks on that; it would work if they changed the a to be display:block |
| 01:01 | <jacobolus> | the bug must also require nesting a block element inside an inline <a>, as I never had any issues with block <a>s with divs in them :) |
| 01:01 | <jruderman> | the html parser doesn't take CSS into account, so just adding a { display: block } wouldn't fix the colors |
| 01:01 | <jacobolus> | hrm |
| 01:02 | <jacobolus> | jruderman: does that test case still break? |
| 01:02 | <jacobolus> | because it's working in my Camino |
| 01:02 | <jruderman> | the layout engine has its own issues with display:block elements inside display:inline elements, separate from the html parser issues with block tags "inside" inline tags. the layout engine issues often have {ib} in their summaries. |
| 01:03 | <jacobolus> | so I guess that's fixed in gecko at some point :) |
| 01:03 | <jruderman> | what version of camino are you using? |
| 01:03 | <Hixie> | if it depends on packet boundaries, it might be hard to reproduce |
| 01:03 | <jruderman> | both the reporter and i are using trunk |
| 01:03 | <jacobolus> | jruderman: recent nightly |
| 01:03 | <jacobolus> | jruderman: let me try a firefox 3 alpha from a while ago |
| 01:03 | <jruderman> | hixie: yeah, i was surprised that i was able to reproduce it as the reporter described |
| 01:04 | <jruderman> | jacobolus: are you testing using my testcase or using the reporter's comics page? |
| 01:04 | <jacobolus> | the comic page |
| 01:04 | <jacobolus> | jruderman: but it breaks in FF1.5 |
| 01:04 | <jruderman> | i'm using a debug trunk build from last night |
| 01:04 | <jacobolus> | oh, okay |
| 01:05 | <jruderman> | the testcase i attached should show the bug more reliably |
| 01:05 | <jacobolus> | jruderman: well the comic page works on FF 3 alpha, and recent camino nightly, but fails in FF 1.5 |
| 01:05 | <jruderman> | but i'm assuming it's the same bug (document.write vs packet boundaries) |
| 01:06 | <jacobolus> | but your test case fails the same way in all three :) |
| 01:06 | <jruderman> | ok |
| 01:06 | <jacobolus> | so not sure what the deal is there :) |
| 01:41 | <wiz> | this may seem silly, but how do you add songs to a bebo home page? |
| 01:41 | <wiz> | music |
| 02:02 | <Hixie> | crap i keep forgetting to change the subject line when i select multiple messages |
| 02:03 | <Hixie> | maybe we should rename loopcount to playcount... sigh |
| 02:06 | <Hixie> | doublec: yt? are you implementing <video>? |
| 02:07 | <Hixie> | or was it someone else |
| 02:07 | <doublec> | Hixie: yes, that's me |
| 02:07 | <Hixie> | doublec: what do you think of renaming "loopcount" to "playcount"? |
| 02:07 | <doublec> | sounds fine to me |
| 02:07 | <Hixie> | or do you think it's fine as is |
| 02:07 | <doublec> | I've got no problem with a change |
| 02:08 | Hixie | is ambilivent about whether to change it or not |
| 02:19 | <jacobolus> | playcount sort of implies how many times it has already played, no? |
| 02:20 | <Hixie> | jund |
| 02:20 | <Hixie> | kinda, even |
| 02:20 | <Hixie> | right low it's loopcount and currentloop |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | but currentloop = 0 means it's the first time through |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | and loopcount = 1 means to play it once and not loop |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | and people find this confusing |
| 02:21 | <Hixie> | and i don't know how best to phrase it |
| 03:01 | <Hixie> | do people prefer <video src="" poster=""> or <video src="" postersrc=""> ? |
| 03:04 | <doublec> | what is poster? |
| 03:05 | <gavins> | the image to be displayed before it starts playing, presumably? |
| 03:05 | <gavins> | a frame from the video, e.g. |
| 03:05 | <gavins> | (like on youtube) |
| 03:05 | <Hixie> | yes |
| 03:05 | <Hixie> | link to a jpeg or png or other img |
| 03:06 | <othermaciej> | it's a poster frame |
| 03:06 | <Hixie> | bbiab |
| 03:08 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie, fwiw, I'd think <video src="" poster=""> -- shorter but still unambiguous.. postersrc doesn't seem necessary |
| 03:52 | <Hixie> | MikeSmith: k |
| 04:08 | <jacobolus> | poster seems fine :) |
| 04:08 | <jacobolus> | postersrc is unnecessary IMO |
| 04:08 | <Hixie> | k |
| 04:09 | <jacobolus> | but what do I know… |
| 04:51 | <Hixie> | hm maybe repeatCount, repeatFrom, repeatTo |
| 04:51 | <Hixie> | instead of loopCount, loopStart, loopEnd |
| 05:17 | <Hixie> | when a <video> is taken out of a Document, it stops playing |
| 05:17 | <Hixie> | so no video or audio is visible |
| 05:17 | <Hixie> | or hearable |
| 05:17 | <Hixie> | (audible, i guess) |
| 05:18 | <Hixie> | but |
| 05:18 | <Hixie> | does the current playback position still advance? |
| 05:19 | <Hixie> | or maybe the audio should still play... that's what we want for <audio> |
| 05:28 | <doublec> | the problem is, when does it stop, if it continues playing? |
| 05:28 | <doublec> | if you take it out of the document and lose the reference |
| 05:28 | <doublec> | does it play forever? |
| 05:29 | <doublec> | if it's a live stream, does it download forever? |
| 05:29 | <Hixie> | yes. |
| 05:29 | <Hixie> | just like a new Audio() element. |
| 05:29 | <doublec> | that's what the implementation does in firefox at the moment |
| 05:29 | <doublec> | but some people aren't happy about it |
| 05:30 | <Hixie> | what do they suggest instead? we can hardly rely on garbage collection to stop audio. |
| 05:30 | <doublec> | they suggest stopping the audio and vide |
| 05:30 | <doublec> | ie. same as pause |
| 05:30 | <Hixie> | whoen? |
| 05:30 | <Hixie> | when, even |
| 05:30 | <doublec> | when it's removed from the document |
| 05:30 | <Hixie> | ok but what about: |
| 05:31 | <Hixie> | var fx = new Audio('fire.wav'); |
| 05:31 | <Hixie> | fx.play(); |
| 05:31 | <Hixie> | it's never _in_ the document. |
| 05:31 | <doublec> | i don't disagree |
| 05:31 | <doublec> | just that others do :) |
| 05:31 | <othermaciej> | one-time stop on remove from document seems reasonable to me |
| 05:31 | <othermaciej> | after thinking about it |
| 05:31 | <othermaciej> | even if you let it be started when outside the document |
| 05:31 | <Hixie> | i guess just stopping on remove makes sense |
| 05:31 | <doublec> | actually that's a good idea |
| 10:22 | <hendry> | hsivonen: my friend wants to use validator.nu, though he has a site that's not external (dumb I know) |
| 10:22 | <hendry> | hsivonen: so can he install your validator locally? apt-get install html-validator |
| 10:23 | <hendry> | hsivonen: oh, i see the source code section :) |
| 10:24 | <hendry> | hsivonen: anyway, I should have a go at packaging it. |
| 10:25 | hendry | wonders if validator.nu is on that firefox web-dev plugin |
| 10:26 | <Dewi> | it isn't |
| 10:26 | <Dewi> | however you can supply your own tools |
| 10:27 | <Dewi> | as in your can define URLs it will add to the menu |
| 10:59 | <hsivonen> | hendry: Validator.nu is not Free as in Debian right now |
| 10:59 | <hsivonen> | hendry: due to Saxon |
| 11:00 | <hsivonen> | hendry: I can take a look at replacing it with Xalan XSLT-C to make the whole thing Free as in Debian |
| 11:00 | <hsivonen> | hendry: (it is Open Source and Free from the FSF POV, though) |
| 11:21 | <hendry> | hsivonen: I think having it in Debian would be great. |
| 14:58 | <zcorpan_> | r1077: "... add a note to both saying that the fallback content isn't for a12n uses.". Africanization? |
| 15:06 | <Dewi> | hsivonen: what license is saxon under ? |
| 15:06 | <Dewi> | hsivonen: he doesn't exactly make it easy to tell anymore :( |
| 15:09 | <hsivonen> | Dewi: Saxon 6.x (and, as far as I can tell, the open source version of 8.x) is under MPL 1.0 |
| 15:10 | <hsivonen> | Dewi: Debian considers MPL and its derivative licenses like CDDL non-Free for the purposes of the DFSG |
| 15:10 | <Dewi> | hsivonen: oh... is all that in contrib? |
| 15:10 | <hsivonen> | Dewi: all what? |
| 15:11 | <Dewi> | er I mean non-free |
| 15:11 | <Dewi> | hsivonen: well, there's a lot of stuff licensed under the MPL |
| 15:11 | <Dewi> | not least mozilla stuff, I would have thought |
| 15:11 | <Dewi> | all that's available (although with rebadging nowadays) |
| 15:12 | <hsivonen> | Dewi: Mozilla itself is now under a tri-license |
| 15:12 | <Dewi> | oh... yeah, I'm just reading that |
| 15:12 | <Dewi> | I didn't realise. |
| 15:12 | <Dewi> | happen to know why it's considered DFSG unfriendly? |
| 15:12 | <hsivonen> | anyway, I already replaced Saxon with Xalan XSLT-C in my local SVN sandbox |
| 15:13 | <Dewi> | nmind |
| 15:13 | <Dewi> | found a wiki entry on this |
| 15:14 | Philip` | guesses the C in XSLT-C means something totally different to the C in Xerces-C |
| 15:14 | <Philip`> | (which is a bit confusing) |
| 15:14 | <Dewi> | some people think the apache license is pretty unfree too |
| 15:14 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: yes |
| 15:15 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: actually, it is XSLTC |
| 15:15 | <hsivonen> | Philip`: it compiles XSLT into Java and loads the generated classes into the VM |
| 15:16 | <Dewi> | hsivonen: the wiki has some quotes from july indicating the MPL is acceptable for main |
| 15:16 | <Dewi> | http://wiki.debian.org/DFSGLicenses |
| 15:16 | <Dewi> | hsivonen: but there has clearly been some differing opinions about this |
| 15:17 | <hsivonen> | Dewi: well, that's news to me |
| 15:17 | <Dewi> | I dunno how authoritative Anthony Towns is |
| 15:19 | <Dewi> | I have a feeling I've been banned from his irc channel before :) |
| 15:20 | <hsivonen> | Dewi: based on my time on debian-legal, I very much doubt that Debian as a project was now OK with MPL 1.1 let alone MPL 1.0 |
| 15:20 | <hsivonen> | but IANAL, IANADD |
| 15:20 | <Dewi> | hehe |
| 15:21 | <Dewi> | anyway I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just curious |
| 15:28 | <zcorpan_> | hsivonen: what's "IANADD"? |
| 15:29 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: I Am Not A Debian Developer |
| 15:29 | <zcorpan_> | aha |
| 15:30 | zcorpan_ | reads about contenteditable/designMode in html5 |
| 15:52 | <zcorpan_> | are there any unicode characters (other than these) that would uppercase or lowercase to any of these characters: aedhrsAEDHRS |
| 15:54 | <hsivonen> | zcorpan_: ß uppercases to SS |
| 15:56 | <jacobolus> | what about ſ? |
| 15:56 | <jacobolus> | that might uppercase to S as well |
| 15:57 | <hsivonen> | jacobolus: indeed it does |
| 15:57 | <hsivonen> | javascript:alert("ſ".toUpperCase()) |
| 15:58 | <zcorpan_> | thanks |
| 15:59 | <zcorpan_> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20contenteditable%3E%3Cp%3Ex%3C%2Fp%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3Edocument.execCommand(%22selectall%22)%3Bdocument.execCommand(%22formatblock%22%2Cnull%2C%22addre%C3%9F%22)%3C%2Fscript%3E |
| 16:05 | <zcorpan_> | http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%3Cdiv%3E%3Cp%3Ex%3C%2Fp%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%3Cscript%3Edocument.designMode%3D%22on%22%3Bdocument.execCommand(%22selectall%22%2Cnull%2C%22%22)%3Bdocument.execCommand(%22formatblock%22%2Cnull%2C%22%3Caddre%C3%9F%3E%22)%3C%2Fscript%3E for moz |
| 16:06 | <jacobolus> | how likely is it that someone will put ſ or ß in their html tags? |
| 16:06 | <jacobolus> | i guess it's still good to define what happens… but seems like an awfully obscure edge case :) |
| 16:07 | <hsivonen> | jacobolus: it is security-sensitive in the case where not fully clued site developers do element blacklisting instead of white listing |
| 16:08 | <jacobolus> | ah, gotcha :) |
| 16:10 | <jacobolus> | so why only aedhrs? |
| 16:15 | Dewi | is always impressed to see irssi happily rendering unicode characters on irc |
| 16:16 | Philip` | is less impressed since he sees A-with-tilde A-with-hat upside-down-question-mark in irssi |
| 16:16 | <Dewi> | Philip`: that probably means your terminal doesn't understand utf-8. tell putty to use utf-8 instead of latin1 |
| 16:16 | <Dewi> | (you do use putty, right? :P) |
| 16:18 | <Dewi> | actually now I really think about it, although linux has had pretty good unicode for ages, it wasn't even default in debian until april |
| 16:19 | <Dewi> | s/pretty good/surprisingly good/ |
| 16:19 | <Philip`> | I'm using Konsole, with Encoding => Default |
| 16:20 | <Philip`> | With Encoding => utf8 and restarting Konsole, I get A-with-halo upside-down-question-mark instead, which is slightly less broken but still not great :-( |
| 16:21 | <Dewi> | hmm. I don't have konsole. Gnome terminal seems to cope alright, although my unicode fonts in X windows leave something to be desired |
| 16:22 | <hsivonen> | I find I need to start screen with the -U flag to get irssi and the terminal emulator talk UTF-8 |
| 16:23 | <Dewi> | oh yeah, I forgot about that |
| 16:23 | Dewi | has 'defutf8 on' in his .screenrc |
| 16:23 | <Philip`> | Aha, it works fine if I start a new screen/irssi session |
| 16:24 | <Philip`> | but I don't want to restart this one because I'd lose my 179 day irssi uptime :-( |
| 16:24 | Dewi | laughs. |
| 16:25 | <Dewi> | I actually run into problems if I run irssi that long |
| 16:25 | <Dewi> | it starts to eat an awful lot of memory |
| 16:25 | <Dewi> | possibly because I have 20 windows open and some kind of totally silly scrollback size... |
| 16:26 | <zcorpan_> | jacobolus: the formatblock command only supports certain strings as input |
| 16:27 | <Dewi> | Philip`: what I'd really like, though, would be to have a stable enough internet connection to get a massive *idle* time |
| 16:33 | <Philip`> | Hmm, I think Unicode is working alright now |
| 16:40 | <zcorpan_> | ☺ |
| 16:42 | <Philip`> | That works too :-) |
| 19:25 | <othermaciej> | darin: I remember you had some JS speedups a while back too |
| 19:39 | <zcorpan_> | Hixie: i don't have an opinion about naming in general, but i will note that .playIndex is consistent with <select>'s .selectedIndex |
| 19:39 | <zcorpan_> | re http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-October/012807.html |
| 19:39 | <Hixie> | interesting point |
| 19:40 | <Hixie> | feel free to mention that on the thread, i'll look at all the feedback in a few days |
| 19:40 | <zcorpan_> | ok |
| 19:40 | <Hixie> | thanks |
| 20:59 | <zcorpan_> | hmm, are there any non-obvious objects that implement the Window interface? |
| 21:00 | <Hixie> | no |
| 21:00 | <zcorpan_> | ok |