| 03:43 | <Hixie> | wow, the xml wg are revisiting planet earth |
| 03:44 | <jwalden> | ? |
| 03:52 | <Hixie> | http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Oct/0375.html |
| 04:07 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - that "revisiting planet earth" comment might make a great title for a blog entry |
| 04:10 | <MikeSmith> | Hixie - btw, has anybody written up a high-level intro or blog entry or something about the offline web apps and client-side DB storage parts of the HTML5 spec? |
| 04:10 | <MikeSmith> | or presentation |
| 04:10 | <Hixie> | not yet to my knowledge |
| 04:10 | <MikeSmith> | damn |
| 04:10 | <MikeSmith> | hoping there was something I could steal from |
| 04:10 | <Hixie> | if you write one feel feel free to blog it on the whatwg blog :-) |
| 04:11 | <MikeSmith> | I will write one, I guess. Unless I can sweet talk somebody else into doing it |
| 04:12 | <MikeSmith> | What would be useful is something that describes the problem it is solving |
| 04:12 | <MikeSmith> | I guess I could crib from some of the stuff that's been published about Gears |
| 04:13 | <MikeSmith> | One thing I'm noticing more and more these days is how often my supposedly always-connected mobile handset is not actually always connected |
| 04:13 | <MikeSmith> | e.g., when I'm in the subway on the way to and from work |
| 04:22 | <Hixie> | the use case for the offline stuff is pretty simple |
| 04:22 | <Hixie> | using a web app when you're offline :-) |
| 04:22 | <Hixie> | the db stuff is mostly to have structured local data when you're offline |
| 04:23 | jwalden | really wishes the SQL stuff forced the use of parameter binding instead of only making it possible :-\ |
| 04:23 | <Hixie> | how can we? |
| 04:24 | <jwalden> | if in parsing the query pattern you ever encounter a literal value, bail |
| 04:24 | <Hixie> | oh that would suck big time |
| 04:24 | <jwalden> | a little annoying for the constant parts of queries, but surely there'll be a saved query mechanism |
| 04:24 | <Hixie> | you couldn't even do "SELECT * FROM data WHERE count > 1" without parameters |
| 04:26 | <jwalden> | yeah, it's the price you'd pay for eliminating injections, barring the use of a user-provided pattern |
| 04:29 | <Hixie> | imho that's too high a price |
| 04:30 | <jwalden> | I think the big problem is that there's so much cut-and-paste of bad examples that just concatenate lots of strings, and this feels like the only way to ever deal with that problem |
| 04:31 | <jwalden> | if only the standard mechanism for constructing queries were parameter binding in PHP and friends... |
| 04:36 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 04:36 | <Hixie> | it's not that big a deal here of course |
| 04:37 | <Hixie> | well, i guess it's somewhat an issue |
| 04:37 | <jwalden> | I don't think it's unreasonable for a client-side SQL injection to be an XSS vulnerability reasonably often |
| 04:37 | <Hixie> | yeah |
| 04:37 | <Hixie> | fair enough |
| 07:47 | Hixie | resorts the 400+ e-mails that were in the semantics folder into other folders |
| 07:47 | <Hixie> | down to 193 now |
| 08:00 | <Hixie> | man safari on windows can't handle the html5 spec well |
| 08:07 | <jacobolus> | what does it break? |
| 08:07 | <jacobolus> | oh, you mean the page of the spec |
| 08:07 | <jacobolus> | does it just not like big pages/ |
| 08:22 | <jacobolus> | are any browsers planning to implement http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control/ ? |
| 08:23 | <Dashiva> | I'd hope Opera is with anne being editor and all :) |
| 08:26 | <jacobolus> | hmm. any browsers with >= 1% market share? ;) |
| 08:26 | <Hixie> | yeah it's a big page issue |
| 08:26 | <Hixie> | the access-control spec is needed by xmlhttprequest 2 |
| 08:27 | Hixie | replies to a long thread asking for <center> and <dir> to be brought into html5 |
| 08:27 | <jacobolus> | when is it likely such stuff will see implementation? 2008? 2010? |
| 08:27 | Hixie | says no |
| 08:27 | <Hixie> | jacobolus: yeah, around then |
| 08:29 | gsnedders | is finally making movement on http-parsing |
| 08:29 | <jacobolus> | Hixie: I haven't really looked at recent discussion on the html wg list. out of idle curiosity, does it look like IE will try to implement most of html5? |
| 08:30 | <Hixie> | jacobolus: microsoft has not commented either way |
| 08:30 | <jacobolus> | hmm. I wonder if that's good or bad. |
| 08:31 | <Hixie> | in practice, them commenting that they intend to implement something rarely has any bearing on whether they implement it or not |
| 08:31 | <Hixie> | so it's neither good nor bad |
| 08:32 | <Hixie> | what would be good is seeing them implement it |
| 08:32 | <jacobolus> | heh |
| 09:11 | <Hixie> | down to just 119. |
| 09:28 | <Hixie> | 86 |
| 09:28 | <Hixie> | bed time now |
| 18:25 | <Hixie> | apparently we are web experts http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/98175 |
| 18:30 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: cool |
| 18:36 | <Dashiva> | It also implies whatwg is a subset of the w3c, as I read it |
| 18:36 | <hsivonen> | also SGML |
| 18:36 | <hsivonen> | more PR work still ahead |
| 19:27 | Hixie | is trying to sort his random grabbag of e-mails into categories |
| 19:27 | <Hixie> | i'm afraid certain e-mails covered a large number of subjects and they ended up mostly in random folders |
| 20:33 | <othermaciej> | does anyone here know if there is an IRC channel for ES4 spec discussion? |
| 20:34 | <Hixie> | dunno, but if you find out please do let me know |
| 20:34 | <othermaciej> | I emailed Brendan to ask |
| 20:35 | <othermaciej> | ggaren and I have decided to start attending the conference calls and see what is going on in there |
| 20:35 | <Hixie> | anything fun? |
| 20:35 | <Hixie> | i think technically google has joined now too, but i don't have the time to join calls and stuff |
| 20:35 | <othermaciej> | I am somewhat concerned that ES4's compatibility story is not as good as HTML5 |
| 20:35 | <othermaciej> | also, Microsoft and Yahoo are trying to derail the process |
| 20:35 | <othermaciej> | those are the two things I have learned |
| 20:36 | <Hixie> | interesting |
| 20:36 | <Hixie> | why yahoo? |
| 20:42 | <othermaciej> | why yahoo? I am not sure |
| 20:42 | <othermaciej> | either Crockford's personal biases or some weird cozying up to Microsoft |
| 21:06 | <Philip`> | I need to stop writing HTML frontends for applications, and start using a real platform instead |
| 21:06 | <Hixie> | whatcha missing? |
| 21:07 | <Philip`> | I spent a couple of hours writing something today, and found a crash bug in Opera and a layout bug in Firefox 3 - it would be nicer if things actually worked :-( |
| 21:08 | <roc> | file it! |
| 21:09 | <Philip`> | On the other hand, it's nice to be able to write a couple of dozen lines of JS to combine an SVG file from GraphViz with a load of data in HTML tables from some Perl script, to create prettily coloured graphs of the data |
| 21:10 | <Philip`> | roc: I was trying to get work done, so I just gave up and used FF2 instead :-) |
| 21:10 | <Philip`> | but I have more time now so I'll try to reproduce it |
| 21:10 | <Hixie> | Philip`: i hate to tell you this but "real platforms" are just as crashy :-P |
| 21:10 | <roc> | if you don't have time to search for dups or make a reduced testcase, just file with whatever big testcase you have and someone else will do the work |
| 21:12 | <roc> | we are trying really really hard to fix layout regressions for FF3 so if you file a bug and it's a real bug, not a situation where we're being more standards compliant, we'll fix it for FF3 |
| 21:34 | <jacobolus> | anyone know if there's a bug in mozilla's bugzilla about server-sent events, or any info about people working on getting support for them into gecko? |
| 21:34 | <jacobolus> | the bugzilla search for "server sent events" returns large numbers of unrelated bugs |
| 21:35 | <Philip`> | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=401775 - I hope that's a real bug because otherwise I'll have to fix my code instead :-( |
| 21:35 | <jacobolus> | ah, here. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338583 nevermind |
| 21:39 | <Hixie> | btw i learnt more about aria recently and the "live region" idea, though over-engineered in waiaria, does seem generally useful |
| 21:44 | <Philip`> | Incidentally, it's slightly irritating how GraphViz's SVG output raises CSS warnings in Firefox/Opera |
| 21:44 | <Hixie> | which warnings? |
| 21:45 | <Philip`> | "font-weight:regular" is apparently invalid |
| 21:45 | <Hixie> | ah yes, that's quite invalid. |
| 21:46 | <virtuelv> | Philip`: 'normal' |
| 21:46 | <Hixie> | henri has by far the most outstanding feedback e-mails in my pile |
| 21:47 | <virtuelv> | mildly related: Do any browsers actually implement the numeric font weights? |
| 21:47 | <Philip`> | I suppose I could fix it by using sed on the SVG file, though that'd feel kind of dirty and non-XML-ish |
| 21:47 | <Hixie> | and the three folders with the most comments are WF2 (any forms-related problems, no new suggestions), semantics-links (<a>, <link>, rel, rev, etc), and semantics-mathematics (which is now basically anything related to namespaces in text/html) |
| 21:52 | <jwalden> | interesting, didn't know someone had a patch to implement server-side DOM events |
| 21:52 | <roc> | neither did I |
| 22:23 | <othermaciej> | Hixie: apparently #jslang on irc.mozilla.org is the place, gonna join there as soon as I find out the right port and other stuff for Mozilla IRC |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | mozilla irc supports ssl btw |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | on 6669 i think |
| 22:25 | <Hixie> | let me know if anyone can join |
| 22:27 | <jwalden> | 6697 |
| 22:27 | <jwalden> | othermaciej, Hixie: ^ |
| 23:02 | <bradee-oh> | hmmmmm |
| 23:03 | <bradee-oh> | Why is it the html5 spec specifically requires SQL API errors to be localized, but not anything else? |
| 23:03 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: ^, out of curiosity |
| 23:04 | <Hixie> | which other errors are there? |
| 23:05 | <jgraham__> | Should localisation be a must requirement? |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | no |
| 23:06 | <Hixie> | should be a should |
| 23:06 | <jgraham__> | the other case of localization in the spec (that I recall) is in <isindex> |
| 23:07 | <jgraham__> | Hixie: Do you want mail on the should/must thing? |
| 23:07 | <Hixie> | fixed |
| 23:07 | <jgraham__> | Ah, OK :) |
| 23:07 | <bradee-oh> | I was wondering if there were any others, but searching the whole spec for "localized" and variants thereof came up blank. |
| 23:07 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: awesome. thanks |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | i have a very high motivation right now to keep the sql, offline, and video sections free of known errors |
| 23:08 | <bradee-oh> | Hixie: good to know. I will look more carefully for them just to bug you ;) |
| 23:08 | <Hixie> | it'll probably end on friday :-) |
| 23:09 | <bradee-oh> | well, I know how long I have then |
| 23:09 | <bradee-oh> | :) |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | (i told my manager i'd be down to zero on those three areas by friday) |
| 23:09 | <bradee-oh> | so therefore, by friday it will be perfect. no matter what. |
| 23:09 | <bradee-oh> | got it. |
| 23:09 | <bradee-oh> | :P |
| 23:09 | <Hixie> | (not that he really cares exactly what section I'm working on, but it's a pride thing!) |
| 23:35 | Hixie | replies to mail from 2004 |
| 23:44 | <jgraham__> | Apparently Ben is reluctant to use IRC although I'm not sure why |
| 23:44 | <Hixie> | oh? |
| 23:45 | <Hixie> | that's gonn amake the plenary difficult... |
| 23:45 | <jgraham> | Well I think it might be just some worry about its complexity |
| 23:46 | <jgraham> | which will turn out to be unfounded |
| 23:46 | <jgraham> | but I don't really know |